8 ms·

Connected, but at what cost?

79 points by nithinj 6y ago

blfr 6y ago
However, the treatment group also became less knowledgeable about current events. Apparently, they couldn't identify any downsides to quitting Facebook.
- thundergolfer 6y ago
  What about to post exactly the same sentiment. I'm finding it hard to access the full study, but I'm guessing "less knowledgeable about current events" means the treatment group weren't as aware of the various disconnected things the media puts in the faces of their audience and then drops within a week, reducing the events to mere trivialities.
  - schemescape 6y ago
    Yeah, the OP's link doesn't seem to obviously lead to the actual paper. I believe I found it here: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20190658 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20190658
  - godelski 6y ago
    This matches my experience. Reducing my online activity has really made me "miss out" on all the "crazy stuff" happening. Basically it is like if someone took Trump's Twitter account away. It is much more relaxing.
- titzer 6y ago
  "less knowledgeable about current events" aka, had no idea what stupid tweets caused people to lose their mind in the last 12 hours.
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  FOMO is powerful...
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
I am surprised that deleting Facebook led people to socialize offline more. After I deleted Facebook about seven years ago, my social life took a big dive because I was no longer getting word of events that my friends were organizing – they would solely post the announcements solely to Facebook. Now I am wondering if this doesn’t happen to people today because Facebook is increasingly passé, and so all those event announcements are going over Whatsapp instead and no one is deleting that. But even today, without Facebook it must be difficult to hear of many general events happening in one’s city where one could make new friends. Meetup.com used to be a great platform for this, but where I live or in the cities I travel to, it has been reduced to either lecture evenings for software developers or thinly-veiled ways for yoga teachers and entrepreneurs to build businesses off of the people who show up.
- xcavier 6y ago
  I think you’re missing the point: deleting Fb meant they had to make more of an effort to know what their friends were up to, which resulted in more offline interactions.
- godelski 6y ago
  I deleted mine years ago. It increased my offline interaction. But like my sibling comment suggests, I had to be more proactive. Yeah, it is more work, but it has felt more rewarding and the relationships feel more real. It gets a lot easier real fast too. Basically you have to get your friends to realize that they can't be lazy with you and if they want to be friends they have to put in effort too. "Why didn't you show up to my BBQ?" "Because you didn't invite me?" "What? I told everyone on Facebook". "I don't have one. If you want me to come you'll have to text me." And people end up texting you. I can say one of the reasons if feels more real is because you're showing up to an outing with an explicit invitation, not a generic group invite.
- amelius 6y ago
  > After I deleted Facebook about seven years ago, my social life took a big dive because I was no longer getting word of events that my friends were organizing Instead of deleting Facebook, just unfollow all your friends. Then you still have "Events".
jl2718 6y ago
I sort of wish I had a better hobby than reading hacker news. Today I saw a house for sale, built in the 80s, lots of outdoor entertainment stuff for neighborhood parties. Vacant, crumbling, dead. Reminded me. Kids, seriously, this used to really happen. Every day, all the neighborhood kids would play ball games at somebody’s house, and the adults would walk over for about an hour and talk to each other. Adults all tried to outdo each other for the nicest house and best backyard for this kind of thing. Nobody does this anymore. Might as well buy that trailer in Space Park Way and a VR headset. I always thought RP1 was so banal; I was hoping for a more nuanced and unpredictable dystopia.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  It happens today! The secret is getting involved. Join the board of your kids little league or get involved with PTO. We try to get to know people and push off learning what they do for a living as long as possible. Cocktails on the front porch most weekends.
  - phil21 6y ago
    > It happens today! It happens today sure, but it's a phantom of what it once was. This was American culture when my grandparents grew up. Like you were considered the weirdo for not participating. Now it's an exceedingly rare thing to find a well-knit community such as the OP describe. I've seen what amounts of a caricature of what used to be in some neighborhoods where my friends are the "ultra type A" types - but it takes someone like that to both start, and keep it going. As soon as they move away or otherwise have a life event, the community crumbles within months. The community spirit of the US is effectively dead except for small little pockets that you must actively seek out to participate in. This was not the case even 40 years ago. Just once small anecdote: My Grandfather loved fishing, lived on a lake, had fishing buddies they'd go out with here and there over the weekends. A few fishing trips scheduled a year where a dozen dudes would rent a cabin for a week and have a good time. Every single one of these guys was a pallbearer, or at least at his funeral. They were also at all his major life events, and when one of the group was in some sort of financial or other trouble the entire group was there helping without even being asked to. How many quake clan players and HN buddies are going to have that sort of social cohesion and mutual support for each other? How many will drive 6 hours to help you fix the shed that burned out in your back yard? How many will spend 2 weeks visiting you on your death bed? I'd posit a tiny fraction if any at all. I have though about this since I was a teenager playing Doom II with my clan buddies. Yeah, this is all super fun right now but it's all so fleeting, trite, and really ultimately pointless. Very few of those relationships actually matter. I think I got exactly one IRL long-term friend out of meeting hundreds of "internet friends" since then, and these are guys I'd send money to to pay bills and such in a pinch - not just randos. This single generation has utterly destroyed the social fabric of America and I have my doubts it can come back. All I know is that when myself and the closest dozen folks like me I know finally die, there will be no packed church full of people who spent a full life together. It's quite depressing not for that said fact, but because it shows how little "in this shit together" US society is, and what that means for the long term.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tzs 6y ago
> Facebook users, randomized to deactivate their accounts for 4 weeks in exchange for $102 [...] I wonder how they decided on $102? That seems an oddly precise value.
- userbinator 6y ago
  It was $100 before some currency conversion/etc., I'd guess.
- ffhhj 6y ago
  Maybe some inside joke, if 101 denotes a first lesson (or an introductory course at college or university in the subject specified), 102 would be the next lesson.
- frabcus 6y ago
  Page 638 of the PDF has a footnote that says: "We chose $102 because our pilot data correctly suggested that there would be a point mass of WTAs at $100 and that it would maximize statistical power per dollar of cost to set an offer price just high enough to induce those participants to deactivate. We chose $170 as the top of the uniform distribution because it was the maximum that we could pay participants without requiring tax-related paperwork." (The $170 refers to a small percentage of their sample which they offered a random amount between $0 and $170 to, presumably to check there were no odd effects from the exact amount. WTA means "willingness-to-accept")
schemescape 6y ago
In case the PDF link doesn't work for anyone else, I think this is the paper: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20190658 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20190658 Interesting to note that the abstract mentions that this experiment involved deactivating Facebook "for the four weeks before the 2018 US midterm election".
mnm1 6y ago
So no downsides to dropping Facebook permanently. Being disconnected from current events is definitely an upside. Not unlike many addictive drugs, really. The benefits long term are great too.
vondro 6y ago
I had a problem with Facebook use, you could call it addiction even. Because I like some features of it (instant messaging to anybody connected, events), I decided to unfollow everything and everybody. Now I have almost empty main page/wall, following only the page of Tristan da Cunha (oh, the remoteness!) and nothing else. Nothing to scroll mindlessly through. I didn't find better solution than to manually unfollow everything that popped up on my wall at that time, but this operation took perhaps 1-2 hours in total but since then saved A LOT of time. The addiction disappeared, I can still message anybody, I can still organize and be invited to events. Great stuff.
- krtkush 6y ago
  This is exactly how I separated myself from facebook while I straight up deleted my carefully curated instagram account. But I continue to be addicted to reddit and it is even harder to let go off because I actually find meaningful stuff on it.
Priem19 6y ago
Added this article to https://www.quitfacebook.org https://www.quitfacebook.org a while ago. It's got other great sources for those who are on the fence. I just can't stand it that fb is everywhere online and in public. "Follow and like us on fb" is even displayed in my local swimming pool; ridiculous. For some people the World Wide Web doesn't amount to more than visiting social media and that completely defeats the purpose of the internet. I'm disappointed that the majority normalizes this.
higeorge13 6y ago
Quitting facebook, instagram, twitter and all kinds of social media has been the best decision so far. I will definitely not install social media apps like tiktok, snapchat or anything similar and the only one i keep is linkedin, which while is becoming a little bit like facebook it is still a bit relevant on job searching. Personally i have found myself all these weeks without them; i realized who my real friends are (the ones who can drop me a call to hang out, not the ones who will always message me in messenger or viber like i am a bot on the other side), i have more desire to start new hobbies, read, play board games and meet new actual people. I am not the most social person ever, but it makes me sad how people and society have changed to the worst due to social media. I am seeing older people who found facebook in their 70s talking to and sharing gifs and silly emojis with their friends through messenger instead of calling or seeing each other. Same for all people of younger or similar age i have met; all the communication goes through social media even for the most complicated matters, like actual relationships, family discussions, serious talk etc. and even if you manage to convince them on an actual physical hangout, you have to go through the torture of multiple photos, posting, chatting, stories and whatever nonsense these social media platforms are promoting. Where is the actual fun of going out for a drink, to talk, to meet other people, to go to a concert or even travel anymore?
nkingsy 6y ago
I studied this in college in 2002, reading the book “bowling alone” for a required general credit class. I remember feeling like it wasn’t that big of a deal at the time. In hindsight it’s a huge deal. Seems like we don’t just naturally socialize with those around us. We need reasons, even if the reason is extreme boredom. TV was the first big hit community took in this paradigm, though books probably were devastating too in their day. I don’t know how you roll that back. I guess either through cultural backlash (doubtful) or something better that does encourage community building. The addiction theme some are mentioning is so true. If the solution effectively requires putting society through AA, I don’t have much hope. Is there a wildly addictive, community-building form of boredom avoidance out there to create or advocate for?

79 points by nithinj 6y ago

blfr 6y ago

However, the treatment group also became less knowledgeable about current events. Apparently, they couldn't identify any downsides to quitting Facebook.

thundergolfer 6y ago
What about to post exactly the same sentiment. I'm finding it hard to access the full study, but I'm guessing "less knowledgeable about current events" means the treatment group weren't as aware of the various disconnected things the media puts in the faces of their audience and then drops within a week, reducing the events to mere trivialities.
- schemescape 6y ago
  Yeah, the OP's link doesn't seem to obviously lead to the actual paper. I believe I found it here: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20190658 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20190658
- godelski 6y ago
  This matches my experience. Reducing my online activity has really made me "miss out" on all the "crazy stuff" happening. Basically it is like if someone took Trump's Twitter account away. It is much more relaxing.
titzer 6y ago
"less knowledgeable about current events" aka, had no idea what stupid tweets caused people to lose their mind in the last 12 hours.
cameronbrown 6y ago
FOMO is powerful...

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

I am surprised that deleting Facebook led people to socialize offline more. After I deleted Facebook about seven years ago, my social life took a big dive because I was no longer getting word of events that my friends were organizing – they would solely post the announcements solely to Facebook. Now I am wondering if this doesn’t happen to people today because Facebook is increasingly passé, and so all those event announcements are going over Whatsapp instead and no one is deleting that. But even today, without Facebook it must be difficult to hear of many general events happening in one’s city where one could make new friends. Meetup.com used to be a great platform for this, but where I live or in the cities I travel to, it has been reduced to either lecture evenings for software developers or thinly-veiled ways for yoga teachers and entrepreneurs to build businesses off of the people who show up.

xcavier 6y ago
I think you’re missing the point: deleting Fb meant they had to make more of an effort to know what their friends were up to, which resulted in more offline interactions.
godelski 6y ago
I deleted mine years ago. It increased my offline interaction. But like my sibling comment suggests, I had to be more proactive. Yeah, it is more work, but it has felt more rewarding and the relationships feel more real. It gets a lot easier real fast too. Basically you have to get your friends to realize that they can't be lazy with you and if they want to be friends they have to put in effort too. "Why didn't you show up to my BBQ?" "Because you didn't invite me?" "What? I told everyone on Facebook". "I don't have one. If you want me to come you'll have to text me." And people end up texting you. I can say one of the reasons if feels more real is because you're showing up to an outing with an explicit invitation, not a generic group invite.
amelius 6y ago
> After I deleted Facebook about seven years ago, my social life took a big dive because I was no longer getting word of events that my friends were organizing Instead of deleting Facebook, just unfollow all your friends. Then you still have "Events".

jl2718 6y ago

I sort of wish I had a better hobby than reading hacker news. Today I saw a house for sale, built in the 80s, lots of outdoor entertainment stuff for neighborhood parties. Vacant, crumbling, dead. Reminded me. Kids, seriously, this used to really happen. Every day, all the neighborhood kids would play ball games at somebody’s house, and the adults would walk over for about an hour and talk to each other. Adults all tried to outdo each other for the nicest house and best backyard for this kind of thing. Nobody does this anymore. Might as well buy that trailer in Space Park Way and a VR headset. I always thought RP1 was so banal; I was hoping for a more nuanced and unpredictable dystopia.

Spooky23 6y ago
It happens today! The secret is getting involved. Join the board of your kids little league or get involved with PTO. We try to get to know people and push off learning what they do for a living as long as possible. Cocktails on the front porch most weekends.
- phil21 6y ago
  > It happens today! It happens today sure, but it's a phantom of what it once was. This was American culture when my grandparents grew up. Like you were considered the weirdo for not participating. Now it's an exceedingly rare thing to find a well-knit community such as the OP describe. I've seen what amounts of a caricature of what used to be in some neighborhoods where my friends are the "ultra type A" types - but it takes someone like that to both start, and keep it going. As soon as they move away or otherwise have a life event, the community crumbles within months. The community spirit of the US is effectively dead except for small little pockets that you must actively seek out to participate in. This was not the case even 40 years ago. Just once small anecdote: My Grandfather loved fishing, lived on a lake, had fishing buddies they'd go out with here and there over the weekends. A few fishing trips scheduled a year where a dozen dudes would rent a cabin for a week and have a good time. Every single one of these guys was a pallbearer, or at least at his funeral. They were also at all his major life events, and when one of the group was in some sort of financial or other trouble the entire group was there helping without even being asked to. How many quake clan players and HN buddies are going to have that sort of social cohesion and mutual support for each other? How many will drive 6 hours to help you fix the shed that burned out in your back yard? How many will spend 2 weeks visiting you on your death bed? I'd posit a tiny fraction if any at all. I have though about this since I was a teenager playing Doom II with my clan buddies. Yeah, this is all super fun right now but it's all so fleeting, trite, and really ultimately pointless. Very few of those relationships actually matter. I think I got exactly one IRL long-term friend out of meeting hundreds of "internet friends" since then, and these are guys I'd send money to to pay bills and such in a pinch - not just randos. This single generation has utterly destroyed the social fabric of America and I have my doubts it can come back. All I know is that when myself and the closest dozen folks like me I know finally die, there will be no packed church full of people who spent a full life together. It's quite depressing not for that said fact, but because it shows how little "in this shit together" US society is, and what that means for the long term.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tzs 6y ago

> Facebook users, randomized to deactivate their accounts for 4 weeks in exchange for $102 [...] I wonder how they decided on $102? That seems an oddly precise value.

userbinator 6y ago
It was $100 before some currency conversion/etc., I'd guess.
ffhhj 6y ago
Maybe some inside joke, if 101 denotes a first lesson (or an introductory course at college or university in the subject specified), 102 would be the next lesson.
frabcus 6y ago
Page 638 of the PDF has a footnote that says: "We chose $102 because our pilot data correctly suggested that there would be a point mass of WTAs at $100 and that it would maximize statistical power per dollar of cost to set an offer price just high enough to induce those participants to deactivate. We chose $170 as the top of the uniform distribution because it was the maximum that we could pay participants without requiring tax-related paperwork." (The $170 refers to a small percentage of their sample which they offered a random amount between $0 and $170 to, presumably to check there were no odd effects from the exact amount. WTA means "willingness-to-accept")

schemescape 6y ago

In case the PDF link doesn't work for anyone else, I think this is the paper: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20190658 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20190658 Interesting to note that the abstract mentions that this experiment involved deactivating Facebook "for the four weeks before the 2018 US midterm election".

mnm1 6y ago

So no downsides to dropping Facebook permanently. Being disconnected from current events is definitely an upside. Not unlike many addictive drugs, really. The benefits long term are great too.

vondro 6y ago

I had a problem with Facebook use, you could call it addiction even. Because I like some features of it (instant messaging to anybody connected, events), I decided to unfollow everything and everybody. Now I have almost empty main page/wall, following only the page of Tristan da Cunha (oh, the remoteness!) and nothing else. Nothing to scroll mindlessly through. I didn't find better solution than to manually unfollow everything that popped up on my wall at that time, but this operation took perhaps 1-2 hours in total but since then saved A LOT of time. The addiction disappeared, I can still message anybody, I can still organize and be invited to events. Great stuff.

krtkush 6y ago
This is exactly how I separated myself from facebook while I straight up deleted my carefully curated instagram account. But I continue to be addicted to reddit and it is even harder to let go off because I actually find meaningful stuff on it.

Priem19 6y ago

Added this article to https://www.quitfacebook.org https://www.quitfacebook.org a while ago. It's got other great sources for those who are on the fence. I just can't stand it that fb is everywhere online and in public. "Follow and like us on fb" is even displayed in my local swimming pool; ridiculous. For some people the World Wide Web doesn't amount to more than visiting social media and that completely defeats the purpose of the internet. I'm disappointed that the majority normalizes this.

higeorge13 6y ago

Quitting facebook, instagram, twitter and all kinds of social media has been the best decision so far. I will definitely not install social media apps like tiktok, snapchat or anything similar and the only one i keep is linkedin, which while is becoming a little bit like facebook it is still a bit relevant on job searching. Personally i have found myself all these weeks without them; i realized who my real friends are (the ones who can drop me a call to hang out, not the ones who will always message me in messenger or viber like i am a bot on the other side), i have more desire to start new hobbies, read, play board games and meet new actual people. I am not the most social person ever, but it makes me sad how people and society have changed to the worst due to social media. I am seeing older people who found facebook in their 70s talking to and sharing gifs and silly emojis with their friends through messenger instead of calling or seeing each other. Same for all people of younger or similar age i have met; all the communication goes through social media even for the most complicated matters, like actual relationships, family discussions, serious talk etc. and even if you manage to convince them on an actual physical hangout, you have to go through the torture of multiple photos, posting, chatting, stories and whatever nonsense these social media platforms are promoting. Where is the actual fun of going out for a drink, to talk, to meet other people, to go to a concert or even travel anymore?

nkingsy 6y ago

I studied this in college in 2002, reading the book “bowling alone” for a required general credit class. I remember feeling like it wasn’t that big of a deal at the time. In hindsight it’s a huge deal. Seems like we don’t just naturally socialize with those around us. We need reasons, even if the reason is extreme boredom. TV was the first big hit community took in this paradigm, though books probably were devastating too in their day. I don’t know how you roll that back. I guess either through cultural backlash (doubtful) or something better that does encourage community building. The addiction theme some are mentioning is so true. If the solution effectively requires putting society through AA, I don’t have much hope. Is there a wildly addictive, community-building form of boredom avoidance out there to create or advocate for?