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Apple is strengthening their services revenue. They week profit from the extra reach. Also, people will continue to but their hardware because the alternatives

Apple is strengthening their services revenue. They week profit from the extra reach. Also, people will continue to but their hardware because the alternatives aren’t that great Simple example.... the MacBook trackpad

krallja 7y ago
Ten years ago when I was offered a choice, I told the office manager I wanted a MacBook because of the trackpad. Apple’s trackpads are even better now. How has nobody figured out Apple’s 2010s trackpad technology?
- chongli 7y ago
  How has nobody figured out Apple’s 2010s trackpad technology? I think because the focus is so much on the trackpad technology itself, which may be a misplaced focus. My fear is that the solution may involve rearchitecting the entire application-GUI stack to get it working on Linux. Why? Because Apple's trackpad is not a mouse emulator, it's a first class input device all the way up to the application. Trying to make the driver really smart is fruitless if you throw out all of that rich information and try to reduce the inputs down to what a mouse is capable of.
  - duskwuff 7y ago
    Eh, I think you're overblowing it a bit. While Apple's trackpad does do some unique things (like Chinese character input[1]), most of the behavior that people are interested in emulating here can be reduced to the cursor position, click events, and (high-resolution) scroll events. The only part of this that isn't currently available on Linux, AFAIK, is the scrolling bits, and even that isn't critical. [1]: https://support.apple.com/guide/chinese-input-method/use-trackpad-handwriting-scim27935/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/chinese-input-method/use-tra...
    - eyelidlessness 7y ago
      As someone who's put a ridiculous amount of effort into mouse-specific user experience, I agree. Apple's only physical/technical advantages are resolution and accuracy (and they only have that because they have software that justifies the cost). The real advantage is they spent research and engineering hours, LOTS of them, determining how to give the best user experience for the majority of their users, including users coming from other platforms with other expectations.
    - parhamn 7y ago
      > AFAIK, is the scrolling bits, and even that isn't critical. It seems that this is in fact the chief complaint of the folks who commented above you. It seems like they're saying that they choose to purchase alternative goods because of that behavior. That seems critical to me, no?
      - duskwuff 7y ago
        Most of the complaints I've heard about non-Apple trackpads focus more on pointing behavior -- finger tracking, pointer acceleration, palm rejection, etc. -- than scrolling.
        chongli 7y ago
        That’s because those are old complaints. It’s a moving target though. People are still complaining about problems that were solved over a decade ago in macOS. Now there are a bunch of new features (described in my other comments) that need to be added if you want an experience as smooth and intuitive as macOS on a recent MacBook.
    - chongli 7y ago
      It isn't just that. The scrolling in macOS is 2D (you can scroll a small rectangle inside a large one in any direction) and has position, velocity, acceleration, and a bounce effect on the boundaries of the content area. Additionally, you can pinch to zoom (in and out) and the zooming is smooth and continuous centred on the cursor location. There are also various 3-finger swipe gestures, and force touch lets you click on things with different levels of force to do different things. The only Linux application I've seen that uses smooth scrolling with acceleration is Firefox, and that isn't nearly as smooth as macOS scrolling (which is available in every application).
  - 0xCMP 7y ago
    It does involve the whole stack as explained here: https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure/ https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure/ Luckily Linux is closer to figuring it out than Windows and I'm watching several issues on libinput and wayland which are trying to address it.
- eyelidlessness 7y ago
  They don't care because, for all of the faults of Apple's desktop/laptop strategy, the non-Apple strategy continues to be "copy form factor, invest nothing in user experience". Edit: I knew this would get downvotes, but it's true in my experience. The closest exception is Microsoft themselves, and even then their hardware focus is limited and mostly intended as a demonstration for their OS customers.
- rb808 7y ago
  Agreed but with touchscreens the trackpad isnt so important.
alphaomegacode 7y ago
So true. I was talking to someone also in lockdown and she's in the market for a new laptop or iPad/keyboard. She also wants to play games with family and friends and that's when she realized multiplayer and games in general on iOS and Mac were not a strength at all. IMO, Apple's above-average hardware (at times, not all keyboards) is severely hurt by the lack of real gaming options on Mac or iOS. I think that is even more glaring now in our present circumstances.
iphone_elegance 7y ago
I dunno IMO the macbook trackpad is not good, RSI inducing tap to click barely works and you have to enable a horribly implemented accessibility options just to drag with a gesture to each their own though the reflective screens they put on those things also cause eye damage
- zapzupnz 7y ago
  > RSI inducing tap to click [...] How does tap to click induce RSI? Surely it's easier on your wrist and hand than having to press a button with force. > [...] tap to click barely works That experience doesn't seem to square with most peoples' experience. > [...] and you have to enable a horribly implemented accessibility options just to drag with a gesture I'm guessing you mean that it's annoying that dragging with three fingers is hidden inside the Accessibility preference pane rather than more sensibly placed in Trackpad preferences. It's true, that's a dumb place to put it — but that doesn't impact whether or not the MacBook trackpad itself is good, which is what you were asserting. > the reflective screens they put on those things also cause eye damage Okay, now you're just ranting.

krallja 7y ago

Ten years ago when I was offered a choice, I told the office manager I wanted a MacBook because of the trackpad. Apple’s trackpads are even better now. How has nobody figured out Apple’s 2010s trackpad technology?

chongli 7y ago
How has nobody figured out Apple’s 2010s trackpad technology? I think because the focus is so much on the trackpad technology itself, which may be a misplaced focus. My fear is that the solution may involve rearchitecting the entire application-GUI stack to get it working on Linux. Why? Because Apple's trackpad is not a mouse emulator, it's a first class input device all the way up to the application. Trying to make the driver really smart is fruitless if you throw out all of that rich information and try to reduce the inputs down to what a mouse is capable of.
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Eh, I think you're overblowing it a bit. While Apple's trackpad does do some unique things (like Chinese character input[1]), most of the behavior that people are interested in emulating here can be reduced to the cursor position, click events, and (high-resolution) scroll events. The only part of this that isn't currently available on Linux, AFAIK, is the scrolling bits, and even that isn't critical. [1]: https://support.apple.com/guide/chinese-input-method/use-trackpad-handwriting-scim27935/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/chinese-input-method/use-tra...
  - eyelidlessness 7y ago
    As someone who's put a ridiculous amount of effort into mouse-specific user experience, I agree. Apple's only physical/technical advantages are resolution and accuracy (and they only have that because they have software that justifies the cost). The real advantage is they spent research and engineering hours, LOTS of them, determining how to give the best user experience for the majority of their users, including users coming from other platforms with other expectations.
  - parhamn 7y ago
    > AFAIK, is the scrolling bits, and even that isn't critical. It seems that this is in fact the chief complaint of the folks who commented above you. It seems like they're saying that they choose to purchase alternative goods because of that behavior. That seems critical to me, no?
    - duskwuff 7y ago
      Most of the complaints I've heard about non-Apple trackpads focus more on pointing behavior -- finger tracking, pointer acceleration, palm rejection, etc. -- than scrolling.
      - chongli 7y ago
        That’s because those are old complaints. It’s a moving target though. People are still complaining about problems that were solved over a decade ago in macOS. Now there are a bunch of new features (described in my other comments) that need to be added if you want an experience as smooth and intuitive as macOS on a recent MacBook.
  - chongli 7y ago
    It isn't just that. The scrolling in macOS is 2D (you can scroll a small rectangle inside a large one in any direction) and has position, velocity, acceleration, and a bounce effect on the boundaries of the content area. Additionally, you can pinch to zoom (in and out) and the zooming is smooth and continuous centred on the cursor location. There are also various 3-finger swipe gestures, and force touch lets you click on things with different levels of force to do different things. The only Linux application I've seen that uses smooth scrolling with acceleration is Firefox, and that isn't nearly as smooth as macOS scrolling (which is available in every application).
- 0xCMP 7y ago
  It does involve the whole stack as explained here: https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure/ https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure/ Luckily Linux is closer to figuring it out than Windows and I'm watching several issues on libinput and wayland which are trying to address it.
eyelidlessness 7y ago
They don't care because, for all of the faults of Apple's desktop/laptop strategy, the non-Apple strategy continues to be "copy form factor, invest nothing in user experience". Edit: I knew this would get downvotes, but it's true in my experience. The closest exception is Microsoft themselves, and even then their hardware focus is limited and mostly intended as a demonstration for their OS customers.
rb808 7y ago
Agreed but with touchscreens the trackpad isnt so important.

alphaomegacode 7y ago

So true. I was talking to someone also in lockdown and she's in the market for a new laptop or iPad/keyboard. She also wants to play games with family and friends and that's when she realized multiplayer and games in general on iOS and Mac were not a strength at all. IMO, Apple's above-average hardware (at times, not all keyboards) is severely hurt by the lack of real gaming options on Mac or iOS. I think that is even more glaring now in our present circumstances.

iphone_elegance 7y ago

I dunno IMO the macbook trackpad is not good, RSI inducing tap to click barely works and you have to enable a horribly implemented accessibility options just to drag with a gesture to each their own though the reflective screens they put on those things also cause eye damage

zapzupnz 7y ago
> RSI inducing tap to click [...] How does tap to click induce RSI? Surely it's easier on your wrist and hand than having to press a button with force. > [...] tap to click barely works That experience doesn't seem to square with most peoples' experience. > [...] and you have to enable a horribly implemented accessibility options just to drag with a gesture I'm guessing you mean that it's annoying that dragging with three fingers is hidden inside the Accessibility preference pane rather than more sensibly placed in Trackpad preferences. It's true, that's a dumb place to put it — but that doesn't impact whether or not the MacBook trackpad itself is good, which is what you were asserting. > the reflective screens they put on those things also cause eye damage Okay, now you're just ranting.