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This author seems to think the only competitor to react is other js frameworks, when in fact most of the web's largest sites work just fine with small amounts o

This author seems to think the only competitor to react is other js frameworks, when in fact most of the web's largest sites work just fine with small amounts of what he calls 'artisanal js'. You probably don't need your js framework, your 10k npm dependencies, or your complex mix of server and client side rendering. Not every website needs an api and clients to consume it, and not everything needs to be an app. The web is a success because it is simple, accessible, fast, and nobody cares how the server makes the html they are reading. Let's keep it that way.

speedgoose 6y ago
The web is not only html documents rendered server-side though. You need much more advanced interactions.
- timw4mail 6y ago
  I keep hearing this, but I think it's too broad of a statement. There are definitely functionalities that are impractical to implement with server-side rendering and forms alone. Map widgets and drag-and-drop come to mind. The issue I have though, is that the overwelming majority of web functionality can be implemented as server-side rendering.
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    Even HN would have a poor usability with only server side rendering.
    - timw4mail 6y ago
      Sure, but it's much leaner because it only uses JavaScript when it is necessary.
    - grey-area 6y ago
      But you don't need javascript frameworks to add a small amount of state changes without page reloads, it's very easy to do without using something like react. The comparison is between server-side with a bit of js where required, and the proposed 'modern web' where js frameworks attempt to take over the entire experience server and client side so that they can remodel the world in their image. Most websites simply don't need react and friends, even if they are more app-like than doc-based they still don't need it, and they certainly don't need to be a single page application (the best modern example of throwing out almost everything that is good about the web - urls, links, docs, stateless).
    - thrower123 6y ago
      Turn javascript off and find out. The only difference I know of is that the vote buttons force a full refresh instead of making an ajax request.
rich_harris 6y ago
> your 10k npm dependencies Believe me, you're preaching to the choir. Nor am I advocating for every website to have an API. But unfortunately we part ways here: > The web is a success The web is not a success. It's dying. Consumers vastly prefer native apps — one recent study (https://www.mobiloud.com/blog/mobile-apps-vs-the-mobile-web/ https://www.mobiloud.com/blog/mobile-apps-vs-the-mobile-web/) tells us that 90% of mobile time is spent in apps vs 10% in browsers.
- swah 6y ago
  We can make those with JS/React so I wonder if users can tell. Of course the hugely popular, cross-platform apps are probably going to be "really native" forever..
- tashoecraft 6y ago
  Apps only work for very specific use cases. The difficulty in getting people to download your app shows that. That study doesn’t seem to break down what apps are being used. I’m going to guess games, as they dominate the charts, or specific websites that have created mobile apps. Facebook, Twitter or maps, which are used for multiple hours straight when driving. If there is a site you use often enough it graduates to living in your phone. But the majority of what apps can do is never even touched. I’d be much more interested in a breakdown of app usage, as I bet active time shifts more towards web
  - amw-zero 6y ago
    > The difficulty in getting people to download your app shows that This one I'm always interested in. What is difficult about downloading an app?
    - filleduchaos 6y ago
      You're misreading that statement. Downloading an app is not difficult, _getting_ people to download one is.
      - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
subpixel 6y ago
The site the article appears on is a very well-tuned Rails app.
pier25 6y ago
> your 10k npm dependencies Svelte projects do not put 10k dependencies in the final bundle. In fact when using Svelte you won't need many dependencies you typically need when using React: - State management (MobX, Redux, etc) - CSS stuff (classnames, CSS in JS, etc) - Animation Even on a simple use case like a synthetic benchmark Svelte is still the absolute leader in start-up metrics: https://krausest.github.io/js-framework-benchmark/current.html https://krausest.github.io/js-framework-benchmark/current.ht... Also check the metrics for a real world project: https://medium.com/dailyjs/a-realworld-comparison-of-front-end-frameworks-2020-4e50655fe4c1 https://medium.com/dailyjs/a-realworld-comparison-of-front-e...
- robertoandred 6y ago
  You don't need additional state management or css "stuff" to use React.
  - pier25 6y ago
    Certainly but it's very common.

speedgoose 6y ago

The web is not only html documents rendered server-side though. You need much more advanced interactions.

timw4mail 6y ago
I keep hearing this, but I think it's too broad of a statement. There are definitely functionalities that are impractical to implement with server-side rendering and forms alone. Map widgets and drag-and-drop come to mind. The issue I have though, is that the overwelming majority of web functionality can be implemented as server-side rendering.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Even HN would have a poor usability with only server side rendering.
  - timw4mail 6y ago
    Sure, but it's much leaner because it only uses JavaScript when it is necessary.
  - grey-area 6y ago
    But you don't need javascript frameworks to add a small amount of state changes without page reloads, it's very easy to do without using something like react. The comparison is between server-side with a bit of js where required, and the proposed 'modern web' where js frameworks attempt to take over the entire experience server and client side so that they can remodel the world in their image. Most websites simply don't need react and friends, even if they are more app-like than doc-based they still don't need it, and they certainly don't need to be a single page application (the best modern example of throwing out almost everything that is good about the web - urls, links, docs, stateless).
  - thrower123 6y ago
    Turn javascript off and find out. The only difference I know of is that the vote buttons force a full refresh instead of making an ajax request.

rich_harris 6y ago

> your 10k npm dependencies Believe me, you're preaching to the choir. Nor am I advocating for every website to have an API. But unfortunately we part ways here: > The web is a success The web is not a success. It's dying. Consumers vastly prefer native apps — one recent study (https://www.mobiloud.com/blog/mobile-apps-vs-the-mobile-web/ https://www.mobiloud.com/blog/mobile-apps-vs-the-mobile-web/) tells us that 90% of mobile time is spent in apps vs 10% in browsers.

swah 6y ago
We can make those with JS/React so I wonder if users can tell. Of course the hugely popular, cross-platform apps are probably going to be "really native" forever..
tashoecraft 6y ago
Apps only work for very specific use cases. The difficulty in getting people to download your app shows that. That study doesn’t seem to break down what apps are being used. I’m going to guess games, as they dominate the charts, or specific websites that have created mobile apps. Facebook, Twitter or maps, which are used for multiple hours straight when driving. If there is a site you use often enough it graduates to living in your phone. But the majority of what apps can do is never even touched. I’d be much more interested in a breakdown of app usage, as I bet active time shifts more towards web
- amw-zero 6y ago
  > The difficulty in getting people to download your app shows that This one I'm always interested in. What is difficult about downloading an app?
  - filleduchaos 6y ago
    You're misreading that statement. Downloading an app is not difficult, _getting_ people to download one is.
    - 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

subpixel 6y ago

The site the article appears on is a very well-tuned Rails app.

pier25 6y ago

> your 10k npm dependencies Svelte projects do not put 10k dependencies in the final bundle. In fact when using Svelte you won't need many dependencies you typically need when using React: - State management (MobX, Redux, etc) - CSS stuff (classnames, CSS in JS, etc) - Animation Even on a simple use case like a synthetic benchmark Svelte is still the absolute leader in start-up metrics: https://krausest.github.io/js-framework-benchmark/current.html https://krausest.github.io/js-framework-benchmark/current.ht... Also check the metrics for a real world project: https://medium.com/dailyjs/a-realworld-comparison-of-front-end-frameworks-2020-4e50655fe4c1 https://medium.com/dailyjs/a-realworld-comparison-of-front-e...

robertoandred 6y ago
You don't need additional state management or css "stuff" to use React.
- pier25 6y ago
  Certainly but it's very common.