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This after previous indictments of Huawei for RICO violations and theft of trade secrets from USA companies T-Mobile, Qualcomm, and Cisco. Including theft of 5

This after previous indictments of Huawei for RICO violations and theft of trade secrets from USA companies T-Mobile, Qualcomm, and Cisco. Including theft of 5G technology that is now being used in equipment sold to EU countries. [0] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-telecommunications-conglomerate-huawei-and-subsidiaries-charged-racketeering https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-telecommunications-co... [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-telecommunications-device-manufacturer-and-its-us-affiliate-indicted-theft-trade https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-telecommunications-de... Whatever happened to arresting Huawei’s Chief Financial Officer Wanzhou Meng? Was she ever extradited from Canada after being captured in Vancouver, BC?

mempko 6y ago
There are a couple of points a) The deal china made with US companies is bring us your technology and we will manufacture for you cheaply. b) Giving technology as part of a deal and then retroactively calling it stealing is, well, strange. c) America because what it was because it "stole" technology from Europe during the industrial revolution. American companies understood what they were getting into and what the deals were and took them. China didn't force US companies to make those deals.
- Icathian 6y ago
  You seem to be under the rather odd impression that all of the limitations you agree to when you enter into contract with another entity are supposed to be ignored. Just because you're doing business with someone who has a reputation of breaching faith doesn't mean it's appropriate that they do so, and you certainly don't have to like them for it.
  - thoughtstheseus 6y ago
    China actually ranks high in adherence to contracts. It’s what’s not in the contracts that creates problems. The issues are a bit more nuanced. Harris Bricken is a law firm with a great blog on related legal topics.
  - mempko 6y ago
    And yet US companies keep going back to China. Most technological invention is paid for by the US government investment. Name any high technology and it's lineage points back to some government grant or purchase agreement. Companies that use these inventions and innovate on top to bring them to market are themselves using technology we paid for. But we don't call that "stealing". Do you think they care that China also gets them? Knowledge should be shared and free anyway.
- adventured 6y ago
  > America because what it was because it "stole" technology from Europe during the industrial revolution. A falsehood. The US was one of the primary innovators during the industrial revolution, along with Germany, Britain and France. In the oil/mining, steel, railroad/transport, electricity, building, manufacturing, automobile, farming and communication segments the US held its own when it came to invention in the 1870-1930 era. It doesn't take very long to canvas the major industrial segments and point to various large US contributions. The recent claim that the US stole all of its industrial revolution era technology, is an empty defamation that you mostly only see on sites like Reddit as a propaganda angle, and it's always unsupported in argument.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
It's pretty difficult to take the accusations of theft of 5G technology seriously, when Huawei is far ahead of its competitors and has massively outspent them on R&D for 5G. > Was she ever extradited from Canada after being captured in Vancouver, BC? No, it's still a giant political mess. The Canadian government wishes they had never gotten involved - they should have just let her slip. With the US and China, Canada is between a rock and a hard place.
- gpm 6y ago
  > The Canadian government wishes they had never gotten involved - they should have just let her slip. With the US and China, Canada is between a rock and a hard place. Source on this? I certainly haven't heard the government say anything to this effect. As a Canadian I certainly do not wish we had "just let her slip". We're a country of laws. We should follow those laws, not just give in to pressure from China because they're big, mean, and scary.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    A country of Canadian laws, not American laws.
    - gpm 6y ago
      Indeed, and Canadian laws say that we should arrest her and probably extradite her to the US subject to the outcome of some hearings.
      - sunstone 6y ago
        The standard for extradition is that the alleged infraction must also be a crime in the country being asked to extradite. So that's what Canada is trying to determine right now.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    > Source on this? I certainly haven't heard the government say anything to this effect. I'm basing this on the government's paralysis in this case. > We're a country of laws. Canada's system of laws is being abused by the Trump administration, which has made no secret of its desire to use Meng Wanzhou as a bargaining chip in the trade war. Allowing the Canadian extradition treaty with the US to be abused for political ends was not wise. There were smarter ways to deal with the request. Hong Kong's reaction to the US extradition request for Snowden (please resubmit the paperwork while we let him fly out of our jurisdiction) would have been a good model to follow. > We should follow those laws, not just give in to pressure from China because they're big, mean, and scary. The possible US reaction to not extraditing Meng Wanzhou would be just as - if not more - scary. Canada is extremely dependent on trade with the US. That's why the government arrested Meng Wanzhou, and why it is finding it so difficult to acknowledge the obvious: that this is a politically motivated prosecution that does not fall under the terms of the extradition treaty.
bildung 6y ago
I will be very surprised if Huawei would be found guilty of anything. The company plays an important role in actually defining the 5G standard as a member of 3GPP, and holds 3 times the number of 5G patents than Qualcomm. I mean, look at the number of contributions to the 5G standards by company in this document, and compare the positions of Huawei, Qualcomm and Cisco: https://www.iplytics.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Who-Leads-the-5G-Patent-Race_2019.pdf https://www.iplytics.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Who-Lead... (page 9). What are they supposed to steal there? They literally are defining what 5G is.
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  Making contributions doesn’t cancel stealing secrets. We all know most of the chinese technology was IP stolen and improved upon. Lets take for example Solowheel. Do you know the story behind it?
  - pinkfoot 6y ago
    Have you ever stopped to ponder why Ford, GM, and Chrysler's four-stroke motors look ever so much like the one the Germans Nicolaus Otto, Gottlieb Daimler, and Wilhelm Maybach invented?
    - onemoresoop 6y ago
      Because a lot of german technology was force-exported to the US and USSR after Germany lost the WWII. What are you implying here regarding China’s IP theft? Did they win a war Im not aware of?
      - pinkfoot 6y ago
        The Otto-cycle engine in Ford Model T engine from 1908 - 1927 was the spoils for the SECOND world war? No mate, it was a rip-off.
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  worked for a main competitor of Huawei building UMTS/LTE base stations which at the time weren't even properly standardized (early systems design). Searched for my own name on github. Found source code I wrote for said vendor which was taken from somebody who worked for our Hangzhou office and had access to the same internal VCS[1] as me. The guy downloaded anything he had access to then moved to Huawei and from there to another Chinese state owned company. He uploaded everything to his own github account (under his real name). Not even an isolated case. They don't even have to plant a mole in your org in the West they can simply just coerce Chinese based employees to extract interesting IP from your sites in China. These guys just don't give a f*ck! (also Nokia, Ericsson management were never held accountable for enabling this by opening up sites in China without thinking this won't bite them. they all did it because of promise of cheap manufacture and they all got rolled. thousands of jobs lost in Europe and the US as a consequence so it's not just the Chinese who are to blame here) note: I was involved in early tech standardization on 3GPP for many years. yes Huawei contributes a lot. That doesn't mean they also don't steal your shit. They do it because there literally is no way to hold them accountable. You just got to make sure you don't travel to a country that may extradite you to the US. And by the way they are _not_ the leader in 5G. This is constantly parroted propaganda. You can get the same "mature" Tech for 5G from Ericsson, Nokia ... yes Huawei might have more patents but you can only sell what the standard supports in terms of interoperability, and so the constant claim that the only 5G player is Huawei is plain wrong. [1] obviously we didn't use github to manage our source code.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>This after previous indictments of Huawei for RICO violations and theft of trade secrets from USA companies T-Mobile, Qualcomm, and Cisco Refusing to sell chips to them incentivizes further theft of intellectual property. If these two things are linked, this seems like a terrible strategy.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  we shouldn't punish a thief because they might steal even more? that doesn't sound right.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    >we shouldn't punish a thief because they might steal even more? We shouldn't punish theft in a way where stealing now becomes their best option to survive.
gpm 6y ago
It's still working it's way through the Canadian court system. This is the most recent article I could find: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-huawei-argues-meng-couldnt-have-misled-bankers/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-huawei-argu...
pluc 6y ago
We still have Meng, she's chilling in a million dollar mansion in Vancouver while China keeps a few of our citizens in actual jail for it.
- draw_down 6y ago
  > million dollar mansion in Vancouver So, a condo then.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  That's the danger of being the patsy. I think more and more people should try to transact business at an arm's distance with China in this kind of environment. The opposite is true as well. Your average Chinese businessperson should think long and hard about transacting any business with the US that requires their physical presence in the US. All nations have way too many laws. You will be in violation of one of them. So the only thing the Chinese or US government needs to do is pick a US or Chinese citizen, and then hold up the probably 10 laws that he/she is violating. It's impossible to live somewhere and be law abiding while simultaneously not knowing what all the laws are. Let's be frank, we're not at the level of the elites in these nations who are arguing over which nation has the largest most attractive tits. On our level, and I'm talking to western and Chinese workers alike, but we're so far down the chain that we won't have people out there pulling strings for us. You don't want to be the hapless patsy sitting in US and Chinese prisons for 10 years while the elites compare dick size or whatever. To paraphrase that old adage, "They can remain irrational much longer than you can comfortably sit in prison."
  - ethbro 6y ago
    At least in a democracy with a free press, you (the average person) can try to start a news frenzy and bug your elected government representatives to apply pressure on your behalf.
    - Zooper 6y ago
      I would argue that the US is not a representative democracy, and that it does not have a free press.

mempko 6y ago

There are a couple of points a) The deal china made with US companies is bring us your technology and we will manufacture for you cheaply. b) Giving technology as part of a deal and then retroactively calling it stealing is, well, strange. c) America because what it was because it "stole" technology from Europe during the industrial revolution. American companies understood what they were getting into and what the deals were and took them. China didn't force US companies to make those deals.

Icathian 6y ago
You seem to be under the rather odd impression that all of the limitations you agree to when you enter into contract with another entity are supposed to be ignored. Just because you're doing business with someone who has a reputation of breaching faith doesn't mean it's appropriate that they do so, and you certainly don't have to like them for it.
- thoughtstheseus 6y ago
  China actually ranks high in adherence to contracts. It’s what’s not in the contracts that creates problems. The issues are a bit more nuanced. Harris Bricken is a law firm with a great blog on related legal topics.
- mempko 6y ago
  And yet US companies keep going back to China. Most technological invention is paid for by the US government investment. Name any high technology and it's lineage points back to some government grant or purchase agreement. Companies that use these inventions and innovate on top to bring them to market are themselves using technology we paid for. But we don't call that "stealing". Do you think they care that China also gets them? Knowledge should be shared and free anyway.
adventured 6y ago
> America because what it was because it "stole" technology from Europe during the industrial revolution. A falsehood. The US was one of the primary innovators during the industrial revolution, along with Germany, Britain and France. In the oil/mining, steel, railroad/transport, electricity, building, manufacturing, automobile, farming and communication segments the US held its own when it came to invention in the 1870-1930 era. It doesn't take very long to canvas the major industrial segments and point to various large US contributions. The recent claim that the US stole all of its industrial revolution era technology, is an empty defamation that you mostly only see on sites like Reddit as a propaganda angle, and it's always unsupported in argument.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago

It's pretty difficult to take the accusations of theft of 5G technology seriously, when Huawei is far ahead of its competitors and has massively outspent them on R&D for 5G. > Was she ever extradited from Canada after being captured in Vancouver, BC? No, it's still a giant political mess. The Canadian government wishes they had never gotten involved - they should have just let her slip. With the US and China, Canada is between a rock and a hard place.

gpm 6y ago
> The Canadian government wishes they had never gotten involved - they should have just let her slip. With the US and China, Canada is between a rock and a hard place. Source on this? I certainly haven't heard the government say anything to this effect. As a Canadian I certainly do not wish we had "just let her slip". We're a country of laws. We should follow those laws, not just give in to pressure from China because they're big, mean, and scary.
- logicchains 6y ago
  A country of Canadian laws, not American laws.
  - gpm 6y ago
    Indeed, and Canadian laws say that we should arrest her and probably extradite her to the US subject to the outcome of some hearings.
    - sunstone 6y ago
      The standard for extradition is that the alleged infraction must also be a crime in the country being asked to extradite. So that's what Canada is trying to determine right now.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  > Source on this? I certainly haven't heard the government say anything to this effect. I'm basing this on the government's paralysis in this case. > We're a country of laws. Canada's system of laws is being abused by the Trump administration, which has made no secret of its desire to use Meng Wanzhou as a bargaining chip in the trade war. Allowing the Canadian extradition treaty with the US to be abused for political ends was not wise. There were smarter ways to deal with the request. Hong Kong's reaction to the US extradition request for Snowden (please resubmit the paperwork while we let him fly out of our jurisdiction) would have been a good model to follow. > We should follow those laws, not just give in to pressure from China because they're big, mean, and scary. The possible US reaction to not extraditing Meng Wanzhou would be just as - if not more - scary. Canada is extremely dependent on trade with the US. That's why the government arrested Meng Wanzhou, and why it is finding it so difficult to acknowledge the obvious: that this is a politically motivated prosecution that does not fall under the terms of the extradition treaty.

bildung 6y ago

I will be very surprised if Huawei would be found guilty of anything. The company plays an important role in actually defining the 5G standard as a member of 3GPP, and holds 3 times the number of 5G patents than Qualcomm. I mean, look at the number of contributions to the 5G standards by company in this document, and compare the positions of Huawei, Qualcomm and Cisco: https://www.iplytics.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Who-Leads-the-5G-Patent-Race_2019.pdf https://www.iplytics.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Who-Lead... (page 9). What are they supposed to steal there? They literally are defining what 5G is.

onemoresoop 6y ago
Making contributions doesn’t cancel stealing secrets. We all know most of the chinese technology was IP stolen and improved upon. Lets take for example Solowheel. Do you know the story behind it?
- pinkfoot 6y ago
  Have you ever stopped to ponder why Ford, GM, and Chrysler's four-stroke motors look ever so much like the one the Germans Nicolaus Otto, Gottlieb Daimler, and Wilhelm Maybach invented?
  - onemoresoop 6y ago
    Because a lot of german technology was force-exported to the US and USSR after Germany lost the WWII. What are you implying here regarding China’s IP theft? Did they win a war Im not aware of?
    - pinkfoot 6y ago
      The Otto-cycle engine in Ford Model T engine from 1908 - 1927 was the spoils for the SECOND world war? No mate, it was a rip-off.
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
worked for a main competitor of Huawei building UMTS/LTE base stations which at the time weren't even properly standardized (early systems design). Searched for my own name on github. Found source code I wrote for said vendor which was taken from somebody who worked for our Hangzhou office and had access to the same internal VCS[1] as me. The guy downloaded anything he had access to then moved to Huawei and from there to another Chinese state owned company. He uploaded everything to his own github account (under his real name). Not even an isolated case. They don't even have to plant a mole in your org in the West they can simply just coerce Chinese based employees to extract interesting IP from your sites in China. These guys just don't give a f*ck! (also Nokia, Ericsson management were never held accountable for enabling this by opening up sites in China without thinking this won't bite them. they all did it because of promise of cheap manufacture and they all got rolled. thousands of jobs lost in Europe and the US as a consequence so it's not just the Chinese who are to blame here) note: I was involved in early tech standardization on 3GPP for many years. yes Huawei contributes a lot. That doesn't mean they also don't steal your shit. They do it because there literally is no way to hold them accountable. You just got to make sure you don't travel to a country that may extradite you to the US. And by the way they are _not_ the leader in 5G. This is constantly parroted propaganda. You can get the same "mature" Tech for 5G from Ericsson, Nokia ... yes Huawei might have more patents but you can only sell what the standard supports in terms of interoperability, and so the constant claim that the only 5G player is Huawei is plain wrong. [1] obviously we didn't use github to manage our source code.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

>This after previous indictments of Huawei for RICO violations and theft of trade secrets from USA companies T-Mobile, Qualcomm, and Cisco Refusing to sell chips to them incentivizes further theft of intellectual property. If these two things are linked, this seems like a terrible strategy.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
we shouldn't punish a thief because they might steal even more? that doesn't sound right.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >we shouldn't punish a thief because they might steal even more? We shouldn't punish theft in a way where stealing now becomes their best option to survive.

gpm 6y ago

It's still working it's way through the Canadian court system. This is the most recent article I could find: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-huawei-argues-meng-couldnt-have-misled-bankers/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-huawei-argu...

pluc 6y ago

We still have Meng, she's chilling in a million dollar mansion in Vancouver while China keeps a few of our citizens in actual jail for it.

draw_down 6y ago
> million dollar mansion in Vancouver So, a condo then.
bilbo0s 6y ago
That's the danger of being the patsy. I think more and more people should try to transact business at an arm's distance with China in this kind of environment. The opposite is true as well. Your average Chinese businessperson should think long and hard about transacting any business with the US that requires their physical presence in the US. All nations have way too many laws. You will be in violation of one of them. So the only thing the Chinese or US government needs to do is pick a US or Chinese citizen, and then hold up the probably 10 laws that he/she is violating. It's impossible to live somewhere and be law abiding while simultaneously not knowing what all the laws are. Let's be frank, we're not at the level of the elites in these nations who are arguing over which nation has the largest most attractive tits. On our level, and I'm talking to western and Chinese workers alike, but we're so far down the chain that we won't have people out there pulling strings for us. You don't want to be the hapless patsy sitting in US and Chinese prisons for 10 years while the elites compare dick size or whatever. To paraphrase that old adage, "They can remain irrational much longer than you can comfortably sit in prison."
- ethbro 6y ago
  At least in a democracy with a free press, you (the average person) can try to start a news frenzy and bug your elected government representatives to apply pressure on your behalf.
  - Zooper 6y ago
    I would argue that the US is not a representative democracy, and that it does not have a free press.