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1 in 400 New Yorkers have died from this in the past 2 months. The flu doesn’t do that.

jb775 6y ago
That argument loses steam when you find out the 1 in 400 got hit by a bus and the hospital flagged it as a covid death because that person tested positive on a previous covid test. Listen to the Joe Rogan podcast from last week w/ Elon Musk, he agrees with my statement. EDIT: Is it just me or is HN becoming more and more of an echo chamber where people downvote anything that goes against their own politics and yet they have no rebuttal or critical response. Lost a lot of respect for HN over the past few months. And for what it's worth, my original comment here is literally what's happening right now. Take your heads out of the fucking sand.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tfehring 6y ago
  The baseline mortality rate for an 80 year old is about 0.5% per month. The mortality rate for an 80 year old with coronavirus is about 15%, with nearly all deaths occurring within a month. So treating all deaths in coronavirus patients as being caused by coronavirus would only overstate the true case fatality rate by 3% or so. The ratio is similar for younger ages. Not sure why Joe Rogan or Elon Musk’s opinion would be relevant here.
  - jb775 6y ago
    The glaring omission here is that this 80 year old with coronavirus could have had stage IV cancer, and pneumonia, and the Bubonic plague, but the official cause of death is being considered "Covid". And considering the 80 year old is probably broke at this point of their medical journey, the hospitals have the option to either get paid nothing, or can claim yet another Covid death so they get the $13k-$39k per-patient payment. Lump this death into the Covid death tally, the media goes crazy (to attract eyes and sell ads, among other nefarious reasons), we are all a little worse off, and the loop continues. And Elon Musk's opinion always matters.
    - ikiris 6y ago
      You seem to not know how covid works (or medicine and/or medical examination) and that's fine, but please don't use your ignorance to sway others on subjects you have no knowledge in.
      - asabjorn 6y ago
        Dr Birx on the coronavirus task force says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause. See video-proof in [1]. This is due to the highly unusual CDC guidelines on how to classify coronavirus deaths. This is what parent refers to, and is not a knowledge-free comment. [1] https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/ https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-...
        ikiris 6y ago
        Exactly what kind of death due to covid do you think shouldn't be classified as a covid death, and what are your medical credentials or evidentiary basis to justify such a stance? Even the Fox news comment doctor said it's a reasonable stance, because the examples given about kidney and heart problems which are supposed to seem obviously unrelated to general public are clearly not to someone with medical background.
        asabjorn 6y ago
        Follow standard CDC procedure [1] and research cause of death for every death. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf
        asabjorn 6y ago
        Can't reply directly to Ikiris: It seems unfair to ask me another question without addressing my reference to Dr Birx statement. She is the one who's credentials this claim rest upon. Edit: reply to Ikiris child comment. Innuendo is not a valid argument against evidence and does not change what Dr Birx said. You have the video of her saying it, so your claim this is some lone voice saying something is not a valid argument.
- srj 6y ago
  You're saying coronavirus mortality figures are fabricated by state and hospital personnel, adding it to death certificates when it was not the cause. What's led you to that conclusion?
  - jb775 6y ago
    That isn't what I said. I'm saying that coronavirus is being listed as the primary cause of death in bad-faith. According to the CDC guidelines[1]: In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” My conclusion is based on the broadness of that statement alongside the fact that hospitals receive $13k-$39k per Covid death. Plus my wife works at a large hospital and I'm getting the inside-scoop. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf
    - jacobush 6y ago
      So you are saying every doctor reading that instruction is in bad faith writing "probable" when in fact, they don't actually think it's probable? Or do say all doctors writing "probable" are actually deluded?
      - asabjorn 6y ago
        He is saying that as Dr Birx on the coronavirus task force says [1] the government classify all coronavirus patient deaths as ‘COVID-19’ deaths, regardless of cause. This is due to a highly unusual CDC guideline that stipulates this, and it may mask collateral deaths due to lockdown measures that could be avoided if we like normal looked for the true cause. The reason why this is relevant is that an overwhelming percentage of coronavirus deaths also had other serious health conditions. [1] https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/ https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-...
- nelaboras 6y ago
  You're not providing any evidence to back up your statement, except the opinions of Rogan and Musk; to my knowledge neither is an expert on health statistics. Could you provide a source to back up this claim?
rayiner 6y ago
But we’re talking about Wisconsin, not New York. The death rate in Wisconsin is 1 in 14,000. Flu is about 1 in 4,000-5,000 in a typical year. New York is such an outlier in terms of death rates that it should be a totally separate conversation.
- unclebucknasty 6y ago
  I get that the geography, density, etc. are different, but isn't the point to avoid anything approaching the New York scenario?
  - bagacrap 6y ago
    No. New York did not run out of hospital capacity. The goal is to approach but not exceed hospital capacity.
    - unclebucknasty 6y ago
      I don't know what you're responding to. I said nothing about hospital capacity.
      - asabjorn 6y ago
        He is responding to your comment about the New York scenario. The original justification for the shutdown was that we would run out of hospital capacity. New York always had ample capacity in hospitals, and the USNS comfort and Javits center hospital were almost empty. Governor projected a lack of capacity which certainly caused fear, but it’s a very different thing. In terms on NYC deaths there has been many stories of incompetence and mismanagement. Almost all that died had other serious health conditions, so it’s a question if lack of proper care for a non covid preexisting condition or they not seeking care out of fear is often the true cause of death. Normally death cause is well investigated. However, CDC issued highly unusual guidelines that said doctors should classify all deaths as covid if they have been diagnosed to have covid instead of doing doing the normal extensive look into each case. This may mask people dying from other serious health conditions due to lockdown.

That argument loses steam when you find out the 1 in 400 got hit by a bus and the hospital flagged it as a covid death because that person tested positive on a previous covid test. Listen to the Joe Rogan podcast from last week w/ Elon Musk, he agrees with my statement. EDIT: Is it just me or is HN becoming more and more of an echo chamber where people downvote anything that goes against their own politics and yet they have no rebuttal or critical response. Lost a lot of respect for HN over the past few months. And for what it's worth, my original comment here is literally what's happening right now. Take your heads out of the fucking sand.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tfehring 6y ago
The baseline mortality rate for an 80 year old is about 0.5% per month. The mortality rate for an 80 year old with coronavirus is about 15%, with nearly all deaths occurring within a month. So treating all deaths in coronavirus patients as being caused by coronavirus would only overstate the true case fatality rate by 3% or so. The ratio is similar for younger ages. Not sure why Joe Rogan or Elon Musk’s opinion would be relevant here.
- jb775 6y ago
  The glaring omission here is that this 80 year old with coronavirus could have had stage IV cancer, and pneumonia, and the Bubonic plague, but the official cause of death is being considered "Covid". And considering the 80 year old is probably broke at this point of their medical journey, the hospitals have the option to either get paid nothing, or can claim yet another Covid death so they get the $13k-$39k per-patient payment. Lump this death into the Covid death tally, the media goes crazy (to attract eyes and sell ads, among other nefarious reasons), we are all a little worse off, and the loop continues. And Elon Musk's opinion always matters.
  - ikiris 6y ago
    You seem to not know how covid works (or medicine and/or medical examination) and that's fine, but please don't use your ignorance to sway others on subjects you have no knowledge in.
    - asabjorn 6y ago
      Dr Birx on the coronavirus task force says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause. See video-proof in [1]. This is due to the highly unusual CDC guidelines on how to classify coronavirus deaths. This is what parent refers to, and is not a knowledge-free comment. [1] https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/ https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-...
      - ikiris 6y ago
        Exactly what kind of death due to covid do you think shouldn't be classified as a covid death, and what are your medical credentials or evidentiary basis to justify such a stance? Even the Fox news comment doctor said it's a reasonable stance, because the examples given about kidney and heart problems which are supposed to seem obviously unrelated to general public are clearly not to someone with medical background.
        asabjorn 6y ago
        Follow standard CDC procedure [1] and research cause of death for every death. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf
      - asabjorn 6y ago
        Can't reply directly to Ikiris: It seems unfair to ask me another question without addressing my reference to Dr Birx statement. She is the one who's credentials this claim rest upon. Edit: reply to Ikiris child comment. Innuendo is not a valid argument against evidence and does not change what Dr Birx said. You have the video of her saying it, so your claim this is some lone voice saying something is not a valid argument.
srj 6y ago
You're saying coronavirus mortality figures are fabricated by state and hospital personnel, adding it to death certificates when it was not the cause. What's led you to that conclusion?
- jb775 6y ago
  That isn't what I said. I'm saying that coronavirus is being listed as the primary cause of death in bad-faith. According to the CDC guidelines[1]: In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” My conclusion is based on the broadness of that statement alongside the fact that hospitals receive $13k-$39k per Covid death. Plus my wife works at a large hospital and I'm getting the inside-scoop. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf
  - jacobush 6y ago
    So you are saying every doctor reading that instruction is in bad faith writing "probable" when in fact, they don't actually think it's probable? Or do say all doctors writing "probable" are actually deluded?
    - asabjorn 6y ago
      He is saying that as Dr Birx on the coronavirus task force says [1] the government classify all coronavirus patient deaths as ‘COVID-19’ deaths, regardless of cause. This is due to a highly unusual CDC guideline that stipulates this, and it may mask collateral deaths due to lockdown measures that could be avoided if we like normal looked for the true cause. The reason why this is relevant is that an overwhelming percentage of coronavirus deaths also had other serious health conditions. [1] https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/ https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-...
nelaboras 6y ago
You're not providing any evidence to back up your statement, except the opinions of Rogan and Musk; to my knowledge neither is an expert on health statistics. Could you provide a source to back up this claim?

rayiner 6y ago

But we’re talking about Wisconsin, not New York. The death rate in Wisconsin is 1 in 14,000. Flu is about 1 in 4,000-5,000 in a typical year. New York is such an outlier in terms of death rates that it should be a totally separate conversation.

unclebucknasty 6y ago
I get that the geography, density, etc. are different, but isn't the point to avoid anything approaching the New York scenario?
- bagacrap 6y ago
  No. New York did not run out of hospital capacity. The goal is to approach but not exceed hospital capacity.
  - unclebucknasty 6y ago
    I don't know what you're responding to. I said nothing about hospital capacity.
    - asabjorn 6y ago
      He is responding to your comment about the New York scenario. The original justification for the shutdown was that we would run out of hospital capacity. New York always had ample capacity in hospitals, and the USNS comfort and Javits center hospital were almost empty. Governor projected a lack of capacity which certainly caused fear, but it’s a very different thing. In terms on NYC deaths there has been many stories of incompetence and mismanagement. Almost all that died had other serious health conditions, so it’s a question if lack of proper care for a non covid preexisting condition or they not seeking care out of fear is often the true cause of death. Normally death cause is well investigated. However, CDC issued highly unusual guidelines that said doctors should classify all deaths as covid if they have been diagnosed to have covid instead of doing doing the normal extensive look into each case. This may mask people dying from other serious health conditions due to lockdown.