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I think it's because the accusation of "privilege" is conversation-stopping. There is no where to go once this is said, because it's a fundamental attack on w

I think it's because the accusation of "privilege" is conversation-stopping. There is no where to go once this is said, because it's a fundamental attack on who the person is, which is something that cannot be changed, discards any merit of a point being argued, and provides no solutions. It essentially asserts that the person saying something is to be disqualified and/or the opinion is inferior without any logical proof. And it suggests "my position is inherently more correct than yours" because I'm not privileged. It signals the end of rational discussion. Is it any wonder that many people (when their private opinions are polled, rather than asked to join shouting in a crowd) actually dislike the tactic?

gowld 6y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Fragility_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Fragility_(book)
daenz 6y ago
>I think it's because the accusation of "privilege" is conversation-stopping. I agree it signals the end of rational discussion, but not the end of the conversation. It's usually immediately followed up with all the ways privileged people need to give X, Y, and Z to everyone else, in perpetuity, to "make things even." Unsurprisingly, that's an unpopular idea.
skybrian 6y ago
I don't really see it that way? The history behind it can be pretty depressing, but basically it's saying you've benefited from good luck. Having good or bad luck is something that happens to you; the merit or blame comes from what do you do about it.
- albntomat0 6y ago
  I think that a lot of times white privilege is used incorrectly as the predominant reason why someone did/did not succeed, rather than one of many complex factors. It's even hard to point to a specific event that exemplifies it, rather an a shift in distribution of potential outcomes (getting into a particular college, for example). Maybe there's a useful parallel to folks arguing that climate change isn't real when there's a bad winter (particular event vs the overall trend).
  - uoaei 6y ago
    "White privilege" isn't one out of many factors though. It's the underlying reason for why so many factors came together to help you succeed in the first place. White privilege is having your application go through the first time because your name is spelled how webdevs expect. White privilege is your assigned recruiter giving the extra 0.x seconds of time to look over your resume if they consider you as one of their tribe and "deserving" of placement. These judgments, while often rationalized consciously post-hoc, really mostly happen at the subconscious level before we're even aware that we're thinking about it. White privilege is knowing where to start to achieve your goals because there are people in your community that can provide mentorship who have probably benefited from white privilege to the point that they can point you in the right direction and even give you some connections to break onto the scene. etc. Your "useful parallel" is relying on tokenism as a sort of reverse no-true-Scotsman attack.
    - albntomat0 6y ago
      Factors that have helped me: - Having well educated parents able to help me with my school and putting an large emphasis on its importance - Having both parents in the house - Having access to, and the ability to participate in extracurriculars in school Those are all correlated with my race, but there are also white people who lack them. Those are the many factors I was talking about. They are specific and identifiable. The useful parallel is that people do a poor job of identifying trends, when counter examples to the trend exist.
      - uoaei 6y ago
        > Those are all correlated with my race, but there are also white people who lack them. No true Scotsman again. The counter examples do not negate the overwhelming influence of the causes to which the trend is attributed.
        remarkEon 6y ago
        ... but you created the same No True Scotsman in the inverse, up thread? Your definition of "white privilege" assumes a complete homogeneity of experience that is absolutely not the case. Do you actually believe that all white people experience life in the exact way you described?
- ueu33hyrdd 6y ago
  This kind of language is exactly why people respond poorly to the term. Most people have worked hard for the things they have including white people, there isn't a secret check that you get every year for being in the pale people club. If you're middle class or lower there's no reason for a white person to side with a politician who is making their platform based around white priviledge because all it means for them is that they get to get to pay the same taxes to be less of a priority.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  The term privilege is used in many ways by many people. Sometimes it means luck but I don't see it used that way very often. I've seen it used most often to - deride a person or group of people - describe oneself in a funny way - describe oneself in a way that is serious but ultimately in a positive light Specific recent examples from my Facebook is whether voting for Biden is privilege or not voting for him is privilege or whether being pro quarantine is a privilege or anti quarantine is a privilege. The subtext is always you REALLY don't want to be on the side of the privileged. Every single time it seems to make the argument dumber and nastier.
duxup 6y ago
I think you can distill that further. Talk to anyone you don't know... and tell them what you know about them based on their race as if it is fact. Generally, not a good way to connect, and you have a good chance of being wrong.
- rayiner 6y ago
  It's a backwards framing of the problem. Think about it: in a country where everyone is white, is there “white privilege?” How can the majority of people in a country be “privileged?” Is that how normal people talk? The issue isn't white privilege. By almost any metric, the most "privileged" demographic in the U.S. is actually Asians. (A U.S.-born Asian growing up in the bottom 20% of the income distribution has a 27% chance of ending up in the top 20%. That's far ahead of whites born in the bottom 20%.) The real problem is that African Americans are disadvantaged. The "privilege" that whites enjoy is that they don't suffer all the social disadvantages of being African American.
  - duxup 6y ago
    Framing is a challenging problem but you are right that it is important. Locally we have a lot of black immigrants, they of course have a lot of challenges. They often get lumped into a "black" group. But looking at the statistics closer indicates they are making fast progress in many areas, similarly to a local immigrant Asian population made many years ago. However, the local African Americans generally are not making a lot educational or economic progress. The differences are striking and really change where you think more / different resources are needed and what is going on for a given group.
    - fmajid 6y ago
      I read somewhere that the vast majority of black students in elite universities are either biracial (like Obama) or of Caribbean descent, not of former US slaves.
  - luminaobscura 6y ago
    Yeah, I think a better framing is "black disadvantage". Whites won't object to this.
Pfhreak 6y ago
It's not an attack, though, and it's not a reflection of who a person is. Privilege is about the circumstances the person is in, how lucky they are in the cosmic lottery of life. Being privileged doesn't make you a bad person. Failing to recognize your privilege may, depending on your moral framework.
- pb7 6y ago
  >Failing to recognize your privilege may What does that even mean? This is code for “you should feel guilty for who you are” and generally a big reason why people become combative when the term “privilege” gets brought up.
  - daenz 6y ago
    It's part of the kafkaesque mentality that denial is the strongest proof of guilt.
    - pb7 6y ago
      Denial is proof of guilt? Someone tell the justice system they’ve been doing it all wrong.
      - daenz 6y ago
        >Denial is proof of guilt? It's part of the bizarro "privilege" narratives. In their framework, if you deny the existence of your privilege, you are proving you have it even more, because only a "privileged" person is capable of ignoring the concept of privileged/unprivileged
      - remarkEon 6y ago
        The parent is referencing the "Kafka Trap", which I believe was originally coined on ESR's blog a decade or so ago. This rhetorical construction is used a lot in these kinds of discussions, and, because of its crudeness, is why people tend to get pretty bent out of shape during said discussion. >One very notable pathology is a form of argument that, reduced to essence, runs like this: “Your refusal to acknowledge that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…} confirms that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…}.” I’ve been presented with enough instances of this recently that I’ve decided that it needs a name. I call this general style of argument “kafkatrapping”, and the above the Model A kafkatrap. http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122
uoaei 6y ago
It's no wonder that people dislike it if people repeatedly ignore the subtleties of the concept and take the attack as a personal affront to their identity. Would you prefer it to be rephrased? Should we spend the time to shield egos or should we encourage egos not to be so fragile?
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  They take it as a dismissal of their ideas, not necessarily of their identity. "No matter how thoughtful your opinion that differs from mine, I'm going to regard it as invalid because you're white" is how it comes down to many people. Which side is the one with the fragile ego there? The one that takes offense at having their ideas dismissed on such a basis, or the side that has to use such an excuse to not listen?
  - yokaze 6y ago
    The point of "because you're white" is, you have no personal experience in that matter. Despite an obvious lack of expertise, privileged people (and I consider me part of that group) feel that their opinion is of at least equal value, and that it should be listened to. Personally, I quite easily give my opinion unasked (like here), and do feel rejected if it isn't listen too. Likely, because I grew up the way, that my opinion matters. I would imagine, the experience would be quite a different one, if your thoughtful opinion would be voiced after being asked for it.
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      Those are fair points.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

gowld 6y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Fragility_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Fragility_(book)

daenz 6y ago

>I think it's because the accusation of "privilege" is conversation-stopping. I agree it signals the end of rational discussion, but not the end of the conversation. It's usually immediately followed up with all the ways privileged people need to give X, Y, and Z to everyone else, in perpetuity, to "make things even." Unsurprisingly, that's an unpopular idea.

skybrian 6y ago

I don't really see it that way? The history behind it can be pretty depressing, but basically it's saying you've benefited from good luck. Having good or bad luck is something that happens to you; the merit or blame comes from what do you do about it.

albntomat0 6y ago
I think that a lot of times white privilege is used incorrectly as the predominant reason why someone did/did not succeed, rather than one of many complex factors. It's even hard to point to a specific event that exemplifies it, rather an a shift in distribution of potential outcomes (getting into a particular college, for example). Maybe there's a useful parallel to folks arguing that climate change isn't real when there's a bad winter (particular event vs the overall trend).
- uoaei 6y ago
  "White privilege" isn't one out of many factors though. It's the underlying reason for why so many factors came together to help you succeed in the first place. White privilege is having your application go through the first time because your name is spelled how webdevs expect. White privilege is your assigned recruiter giving the extra 0.x seconds of time to look over your resume if they consider you as one of their tribe and "deserving" of placement. These judgments, while often rationalized consciously post-hoc, really mostly happen at the subconscious level before we're even aware that we're thinking about it. White privilege is knowing where to start to achieve your goals because there are people in your community that can provide mentorship who have probably benefited from white privilege to the point that they can point you in the right direction and even give you some connections to break onto the scene. etc. Your "useful parallel" is relying on tokenism as a sort of reverse no-true-Scotsman attack.
  - albntomat0 6y ago
    Factors that have helped me: - Having well educated parents able to help me with my school and putting an large emphasis on its importance - Having both parents in the house - Having access to, and the ability to participate in extracurriculars in school Those are all correlated with my race, but there are also white people who lack them. Those are the many factors I was talking about. They are specific and identifiable. The useful parallel is that people do a poor job of identifying trends, when counter examples to the trend exist.
    - uoaei 6y ago
      > Those are all correlated with my race, but there are also white people who lack them. No true Scotsman again. The counter examples do not negate the overwhelming influence of the causes to which the trend is attributed.
      - remarkEon 6y ago
        ... but you created the same No True Scotsman in the inverse, up thread? Your definition of "white privilege" assumes a complete homogeneity of experience that is absolutely not the case. Do you actually believe that all white people experience life in the exact way you described?
ueu33hyrdd 6y ago
This kind of language is exactly why people respond poorly to the term. Most people have worked hard for the things they have including white people, there isn't a secret check that you get every year for being in the pale people club. If you're middle class or lower there's no reason for a white person to side with a politician who is making their platform based around white priviledge because all it means for them is that they get to get to pay the same taxes to be less of a priority.
JamesBarney 6y ago
The term privilege is used in many ways by many people. Sometimes it means luck but I don't see it used that way very often. I've seen it used most often to - deride a person or group of people - describe oneself in a funny way - describe oneself in a way that is serious but ultimately in a positive light Specific recent examples from my Facebook is whether voting for Biden is privilege or not voting for him is privilege or whether being pro quarantine is a privilege or anti quarantine is a privilege. The subtext is always you REALLY don't want to be on the side of the privileged. Every single time it seems to make the argument dumber and nastier.

duxup 6y ago

I think you can distill that further. Talk to anyone you don't know... and tell them what you know about them based on their race as if it is fact. Generally, not a good way to connect, and you have a good chance of being wrong.

rayiner 6y ago
It's a backwards framing of the problem. Think about it: in a country where everyone is white, is there “white privilege?” How can the majority of people in a country be “privileged?” Is that how normal people talk? The issue isn't white privilege. By almost any metric, the most "privileged" demographic in the U.S. is actually Asians. (A U.S.-born Asian growing up in the bottom 20% of the income distribution has a 27% chance of ending up in the top 20%. That's far ahead of whites born in the bottom 20%.) The real problem is that African Americans are disadvantaged. The "privilege" that whites enjoy is that they don't suffer all the social disadvantages of being African American.
- duxup 6y ago
  Framing is a challenging problem but you are right that it is important. Locally we have a lot of black immigrants, they of course have a lot of challenges. They often get lumped into a "black" group. But looking at the statistics closer indicates they are making fast progress in many areas, similarly to a local immigrant Asian population made many years ago. However, the local African Americans generally are not making a lot educational or economic progress. The differences are striking and really change where you think more / different resources are needed and what is going on for a given group.
  - fmajid 6y ago
    I read somewhere that the vast majority of black students in elite universities are either biracial (like Obama) or of Caribbean descent, not of former US slaves.
- luminaobscura 6y ago
  Yeah, I think a better framing is "black disadvantage". Whites won't object to this.

Pfhreak 6y ago

It's not an attack, though, and it's not a reflection of who a person is. Privilege is about the circumstances the person is in, how lucky they are in the cosmic lottery of life. Being privileged doesn't make you a bad person. Failing to recognize your privilege may, depending on your moral framework.

pb7 6y ago
>Failing to recognize your privilege may What does that even mean? This is code for “you should feel guilty for who you are” and generally a big reason why people become combative when the term “privilege” gets brought up.
- daenz 6y ago
  It's part of the kafkaesque mentality that denial is the strongest proof of guilt.
  - pb7 6y ago
    Denial is proof of guilt? Someone tell the justice system they’ve been doing it all wrong.
    - daenz 6y ago
      >Denial is proof of guilt? It's part of the bizarro "privilege" narratives. In their framework, if you deny the existence of your privilege, you are proving you have it even more, because only a "privileged" person is capable of ignoring the concept of privileged/unprivileged
    - remarkEon 6y ago
      The parent is referencing the "Kafka Trap", which I believe was originally coined on ESR's blog a decade or so ago. This rhetorical construction is used a lot in these kinds of discussions, and, because of its crudeness, is why people tend to get pretty bent out of shape during said discussion. >One very notable pathology is a form of argument that, reduced to essence, runs like this: “Your refusal to acknowledge that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…} confirms that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…}.” I’ve been presented with enough instances of this recently that I’ve decided that it needs a name. I call this general style of argument “kafkatrapping”, and the above the Model A kafkatrap. http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122

uoaei 6y ago

It's no wonder that people dislike it if people repeatedly ignore the subtleties of the concept and take the attack as a personal affront to their identity. Would you prefer it to be rephrased? Should we spend the time to shield egos or should we encourage egos not to be so fragile?

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
They take it as a dismissal of their ideas, not necessarily of their identity. "No matter how thoughtful your opinion that differs from mine, I'm going to regard it as invalid because you're white" is how it comes down to many people. Which side is the one with the fragile ego there? The one that takes offense at having their ideas dismissed on such a basis, or the side that has to use such an excuse to not listen?
- yokaze 6y ago
  The point of "because you're white" is, you have no personal experience in that matter. Despite an obvious lack of expertise, privileged people (and I consider me part of that group) feel that their opinion is of at least equal value, and that it should be listened to. Personally, I quite easily give my opinion unasked (like here), and do feel rejected if it isn't listen too. Likely, because I grew up the way, that my opinion matters. I would imagine, the experience would be quite a different one, if your thoughtful opinion would be voiced after being asked for it.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Those are fair points.

deleted 6y ago

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