6 ms·

I don't think people really think about it. Another example: most cities have systems that can pinpoint a gunshot to a block radius anywhere in the city so tha

by MiroF 6y ago

I don't think people really think about it. Another example: most cities have systems that can pinpoint a gunshot to a block radius anywhere in the city so that police can respond quickly.

renewiltord 6y ago
It's funny. I remember a court case where Shotspotter had a pinprick on one block and the news said "the shooting actually occurred a block away". Haha, that's nuts. Crazy accurate. The expert testimony did have the engineer saying "The accuracy is invented by sales and marketing. The pinpoint is just a starting point. It's in a radius around that." Which I found amusing because it seemed obvious to me. It did improve my ability to sell, though. These caveats are useless when you're selling. You can always explain afterwards.
m-ee 6y ago
Oakland has shotspotter and my understanding is that it's been considered a failure
- MiroF 6y ago
  Really? Why? In DC, I think it's been pretty successful because lots of gunshots do not result in police calls.
  - m-ee 6y ago
    Looking into it more it's less clear than I remembered. OPD considered scrapping it in 2014 saying the costs weren't justified and they'd rather have more money for their helicopter. Other cities have said they're not confident in its effectiveness but that doesn't seem to be a large factor here. They ended up keeping it. https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Oakland-cops-aim-to-scrap-gunfire-detecting-5316060.php https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Oakland-cops-aim-to-scr...
  - fapjacks 6y ago
    This is an interesting system. I have worked with this technology on large and small scales, and it's a lot less accurate than you'd think. You have no hope of sending a police cruiser to check out a single gunshot based on the outputs of this system. But a single gunshot won't generate a police call in many cities as it is, so no change there. But a gang war? Sure, that will get the phone lines going and also generate many data points to help pinpoint the location using this system. So many factors affect the speed of sound through air, that the problem becomes one of those logarithmic "How many more microphones do you want to install to eke out this tiny bit of accuracy?" kinds of things. I'm not sure it's useful to point to what cities are saying about it, either. The technology itself is a Hard Problem, but I'm also 100% sure many law enforcement bureaucrats will use any excuse to keep money flowing into their budgets, even if the money is earmarked for something that doesn't work (or doesn't work well).
    - MiroF 6y ago
      Hm, I'm not so sure. Take this for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Seth_Rich#Shooting_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Seth_Rich#Shooting_a... Officers were able to locate and respond within a minute because of a system like this.
the_pwner224 6y ago
There is a very big difference between a system that can localize gunshot sounds and surveillance drones. Assuming, of course, that the gunshot detectors are in fact special gunshot detectors and not a giant array of normal microphones with some algorithms applied to them.
- MiroF 6y ago
  > Assuming, of course, that the gunshot detectors are in fact special gunshot detectors and not a giant array of normal microphones with some algorithms applied to them. Why is your statement based at all on that assumption? I don't see what makes surveillance drones necessarily worse than human cops flying helicopters overhead with cameras (which I know for a fact occurs in my city). What makes the "drone" part problematic?
  - sitkack 6y ago
    Scale, oversight. Would you mind if we had one cop per person and followed them around in public at 20 foot distance everywhere they went?
  - kfrzcode 6y ago
    I mean, a human in a helicopter is NOT the same as Gorgon Stare[0]. That's what's problematic, to me, anyhow. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_Stare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_Stare
    - MiroF 6y ago
      But if a human is piloting a helipcopter with a "gorgon stare"-esque technology attached, seems pretty much the same. I guess I'm unsure what about the autonomous flying is what draws people ire, rather than just overhead surveillance as a concept.
- abqio 6y ago
  Looks like they have an app for law enforcement. It does provide some audio. >gunshot audio to gain situational awareness, and; precise location of the gunshot to search for evidence. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shotspotter-respond/id1096820077 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shotspotter-respond/id10968200...

by MiroF 6y ago

I don't think people really think about it. Another example: most cities have systems that can pinpoint a gunshot to a block radius anywhere in the city so that police can respond quickly.

renewiltord 6y ago

It's funny. I remember a court case where Shotspotter had a pinprick on one block and the news said "the shooting actually occurred a block away". Haha, that's nuts. Crazy accurate. The expert testimony did have the engineer saying "The accuracy is invented by sales and marketing. The pinpoint is just a starting point. It's in a radius around that." Which I found amusing because it seemed obvious to me. It did improve my ability to sell, though. These caveats are useless when you're selling. You can always explain afterwards.

m-ee 6y ago

Oakland has shotspotter and my understanding is that it's been considered a failure

MiroF 6y ago
Really? Why? In DC, I think it's been pretty successful because lots of gunshots do not result in police calls.
- m-ee 6y ago
  Looking into it more it's less clear than I remembered. OPD considered scrapping it in 2014 saying the costs weren't justified and they'd rather have more money for their helicopter. Other cities have said they're not confident in its effectiveness but that doesn't seem to be a large factor here. They ended up keeping it. https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Oakland-cops-aim-to-scrap-gunfire-detecting-5316060.php https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Oakland-cops-aim-to-scr...
- fapjacks 6y ago
  This is an interesting system. I have worked with this technology on large and small scales, and it's a lot less accurate than you'd think. You have no hope of sending a police cruiser to check out a single gunshot based on the outputs of this system. But a single gunshot won't generate a police call in many cities as it is, so no change there. But a gang war? Sure, that will get the phone lines going and also generate many data points to help pinpoint the location using this system. So many factors affect the speed of sound through air, that the problem becomes one of those logarithmic "How many more microphones do you want to install to eke out this tiny bit of accuracy?" kinds of things. I'm not sure it's useful to point to what cities are saying about it, either. The technology itself is a Hard Problem, but I'm also 100% sure many law enforcement bureaucrats will use any excuse to keep money flowing into their budgets, even if the money is earmarked for something that doesn't work (or doesn't work well).
  - MiroF 6y ago
    Hm, I'm not so sure. Take this for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Seth_Rich#Shooting_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Seth_Rich#Shooting_a... Officers were able to locate and respond within a minute because of a system like this.

the_pwner224 6y ago

There is a very big difference between a system that can localize gunshot sounds and surveillance drones. Assuming, of course, that the gunshot detectors are in fact special gunshot detectors and not a giant array of normal microphones with some algorithms applied to them.

MiroF 6y ago
> Assuming, of course, that the gunshot detectors are in fact special gunshot detectors and not a giant array of normal microphones with some algorithms applied to them. Why is your statement based at all on that assumption? I don't see what makes surveillance drones necessarily worse than human cops flying helicopters overhead with cameras (which I know for a fact occurs in my city). What makes the "drone" part problematic?
- sitkack 6y ago
  Scale, oversight. Would you mind if we had one cop per person and followed them around in public at 20 foot distance everywhere they went?
- kfrzcode 6y ago
  I mean, a human in a helicopter is NOT the same as Gorgon Stare[0]. That's what's problematic, to me, anyhow. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_Stare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_Stare
  - MiroF 6y ago
    But if a human is piloting a helipcopter with a "gorgon stare"-esque technology attached, seems pretty much the same. I guess I'm unsure what about the autonomous flying is what draws people ire, rather than just overhead surveillance as a concept.
abqio 6y ago
Looks like they have an app for law enforcement. It does provide some audio. >gunshot audio to gain situational awareness, and; precise location of the gunshot to search for evidence. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shotspotter-respond/id1096820077 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shotspotter-respond/id10968200...