3 ms·

You and your friends can totally agree to do a knife fight. However as soon as someone dies you can’t get out of the jail free saying you all agreed. You and o

by mritun 6y ago

You and your friends can totally agree to do a knife fight. However as soon as someone dies you can’t get out of the jail free saying you all agreed. You and others can’t make a pact to get infected with a deadly virus. If you do and someone dies others should be ready to go to prison! As long as you understand that, it’s cool. Mostly people expect heath care workers to take deadly risk of getting infected themselves and working without PPE that’s no lockdown is basically a ruse from entitled people who want others to risk their life and liberty for them.

balnaphone 6y ago
Reserving freedom of association for "essential workers" shows the flaw in your thinking. The reason for the carve-out in the lockdown is so they can do their "essential" job. Well, every job is an essential job, to the person who depends on it for their livelihood and well-being. The mental state of a person attacking another person with a knife, or a virus, is not at all comparable to a person going to bake sweets, cut hair, or any of the other productive employments people engage in. Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea.
- cozzyd 6y ago
  The problem is only a small fraction of society can have "freedom of association" without R_0 getting out of control. We have decided to allocate fraction to essential workers, which is probably not the worst possible decision.
  - balnaphone 6y ago
    This may be true, but is not materially relevant. For people without underlying risk factors, the illness is generally quite minor. Those at risk should stay home, and avoid contact with the potentially infected. For those who share accommodations, mixed risk factor domestic populations, perhaps systemic help could aid in sorting that out. I decided to post here only to demonstrate that people exist with other views. I'm satisfied that anyone reading this will understand that these views are not unheard of.
    - orwin 6y ago
      > For people without underlying risk factors, the illness is generally quite minor. 1. Kawasaki disease increase for children is not yet tied to a risk factor other than covid19 2. Pulmonary fibrosis occurs also with patients with no risk factors. Although most of those patient spent time in ICU tied with an intrusive ventilator, this is not the case everytime (not enough data yet to know how many have minor lung scarring though). 3. Hypoxemia caused by covid19, even with very mild symptoms is dangerous for the longterm heart and brain health. If you do sleep apnea AND you have covid19, please do not hesitate to go to a hospital (22 millions americans are suffering from sleep apnea and 80% are undiagnosticed according to this [0]). Hypoxemia also have impact on mental health. I agree that other view exists and should be allowed to be heard. But you probably don't have family in a hotspot, and if you have, it's probably in a major city where the effect are not that visible, especially with lockdown (and overall a few percentage is hit). I have family in a low-density hotspot (around Colmar, France) and they are medical workers. Everyone was hit around them. Around 300% excess mortality in the area (still less than Bergame, so lucky them), at least three parents died, as well as a long-time friends and two colleagues. He told us that not going in self-lockdown was criminal and begged us to ask to work from home if we could (this was 5 day before government-enforced lockdown). [0] https://www.sleepapnea.org/learn/sleep-apnea-information-clinicians/ https://www.sleepapnea.org/learn/sleep-apnea-information-cli...
      - balnaphone 6y ago
        Your reasoned response and respectful tone are truly appreciated. Thank you! As a matter of fact, I do have family in NYC, Queens, and CT. It's perhaps the hottest "hotspot" in the world. In general, children below 5 and older adults don't have immunocompetence comparable to older children or younger adults. So caution is certainly called for for those age groups. At the same time, for me personally, after spending years in biotech and healthcare (doing academic mathematical research on hand hygiene, including published peer-reviewed study of compliance rates of doctors to their own hygiene protocols, working within and analyzing clinical trials, doing pharmacokinetics, publishing epidemiological studies, mathematics of mass decontamination, etc.) I've realized a few things. One is that doctors in particular are always calibrating their behaviour to what butters their bread. In the same way American police write "to serve and protect" on their cars, when it really it should say "to serve and protect [THE STATE]", doctors believe they should "do no harm [TO MY CAREER]". Meaning, the treatments and recommendations for patients are totally different than the standards they apply to themselves and their own children. It's safer, and garners more power, to prescribe a lockdown, than to risk getting caught out on the off-chance this is another Black Death. You'll see the same repetitious behaviour with respect to things like dietary supplements, lockdowns, and masks: do as I say, not as I do. And what I say is always going to be coming from a cover-my-arse perspective. It's the outrageous hypocrisy that drives me mad. No doctors that I know or work with personally believe the hype, yet the peer pressure to conform in public and lick boots is overwhelming. The impact of the deaths from delayed non-covid-19 medical treatments, mental issues, depression, hunger, economic distress, and so on is going to be enormous. There is no accountability in this scenario, because of the mass hysteria. All the damage gets ascribed to the virus, and none to the policy makers, similar to how iatrogenic deaths get swept under the rug. The only positive that I see is that the mask has slipped and the possibility exists that soon, some proportion of the people will see what maniacal control-freak lunatic weirdos the people in charge of the state have become. Never shake hands again? Guess what, if strangers never touch each other, it will be the end of the human race in just 50 years. God help us.

by mritun 6y ago

balnaphone 6y ago

Reserving freedom of association for "essential workers" shows the flaw in your thinking. The reason for the carve-out in the lockdown is so they can do their "essential" job. Well, every job is an essential job, to the person who depends on it for their livelihood and well-being. The mental state of a person attacking another person with a knife, or a virus, is not at all comparable to a person going to bake sweets, cut hair, or any of the other productive employments people engage in. Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea.

cozzyd 6y ago
The problem is only a small fraction of society can have "freedom of association" without R_0 getting out of control. We have decided to allocate fraction to essential workers, which is probably not the worst possible decision.
- balnaphone 6y ago
  This may be true, but is not materially relevant. For people without underlying risk factors, the illness is generally quite minor. Those at risk should stay home, and avoid contact with the potentially infected. For those who share accommodations, mixed risk factor domestic populations, perhaps systemic help could aid in sorting that out. I decided to post here only to demonstrate that people exist with other views. I'm satisfied that anyone reading this will understand that these views are not unheard of.
  - orwin 6y ago
    > For people without underlying risk factors, the illness is generally quite minor. 1. Kawasaki disease increase for children is not yet tied to a risk factor other than covid19 2. Pulmonary fibrosis occurs also with patients with no risk factors. Although most of those patient spent time in ICU tied with an intrusive ventilator, this is not the case everytime (not enough data yet to know how many have minor lung scarring though). 3. Hypoxemia caused by covid19, even with very mild symptoms is dangerous for the longterm heart and brain health. If you do sleep apnea AND you have covid19, please do not hesitate to go to a hospital (22 millions americans are suffering from sleep apnea and 80% are undiagnosticed according to this [0]). Hypoxemia also have impact on mental health. I agree that other view exists and should be allowed to be heard. But you probably don't have family in a hotspot, and if you have, it's probably in a major city where the effect are not that visible, especially with lockdown (and overall a few percentage is hit). I have family in a low-density hotspot (around Colmar, France) and they are medical workers. Everyone was hit around them. Around 300% excess mortality in the area (still less than Bergame, so lucky them), at least three parents died, as well as a long-time friends and two colleagues. He told us that not going in self-lockdown was criminal and begged us to ask to work from home if we could (this was 5 day before government-enforced lockdown). [0] https://www.sleepapnea.org/learn/sleep-apnea-information-clinicians/ https://www.sleepapnea.org/learn/sleep-apnea-information-cli...
    - balnaphone 6y ago
      Your reasoned response and respectful tone are truly appreciated. Thank you! As a matter of fact, I do have family in NYC, Queens, and CT. It's perhaps the hottest "hotspot" in the world. In general, children below 5 and older adults don't have immunocompetence comparable to older children or younger adults. So caution is certainly called for for those age groups. At the same time, for me personally, after spending years in biotech and healthcare (doing academic mathematical research on hand hygiene, including published peer-reviewed study of compliance rates of doctors to their own hygiene protocols, working within and analyzing clinical trials, doing pharmacokinetics, publishing epidemiological studies, mathematics of mass decontamination, etc.) I've realized a few things. One is that doctors in particular are always calibrating their behaviour to what butters their bread. In the same way American police write "to serve and protect" on their cars, when it really it should say "to serve and protect [THE STATE]", doctors believe they should "do no harm [TO MY CAREER]". Meaning, the treatments and recommendations for patients are totally different than the standards they apply to themselves and their own children. It's safer, and garners more power, to prescribe a lockdown, than to risk getting caught out on the off-chance this is another Black Death. You'll see the same repetitious behaviour with respect to things like dietary supplements, lockdowns, and masks: do as I say, not as I do. And what I say is always going to be coming from a cover-my-arse perspective. It's the outrageous hypocrisy that drives me mad. No doctors that I know or work with personally believe the hype, yet the peer pressure to conform in public and lick boots is overwhelming. The impact of the deaths from delayed non-covid-19 medical treatments, mental issues, depression, hunger, economic distress, and so on is going to be enormous. There is no accountability in this scenario, because of the mass hysteria. All the damage gets ascribed to the virus, and none to the policy makers, similar to how iatrogenic deaths get swept under the rug. The only positive that I see is that the mask has slipped and the possibility exists that soon, some proportion of the people will see what maniacal control-freak lunatic weirdos the people in charge of the state have become. Never shake hands again? Guess what, if strangers never touch each other, it will be the end of the human race in just 50 years. God help us.