6 ms·

Dithering and Open versus Free

65 points by Amorymeltzer 6y ago

eykd 6y ago
I remember when people said that RSS and blogs were dead, and they'd just be posting to Twitter and Facebook instead. How'd that work out? I'm really glad to see smart Publishers like Ben Thompson looking to head the Aggregators off at the pass.
- msla 6y ago
  I remember when Firefox destroyed my RSS bookmarks with no opportunity for recourse.
  - ChrisSD 6y ago
    The recourse is addons.
    - msla 6y ago
      Destroying bookmarks goes a bit beyond what addons can fix.
      - ChrisSD 6y ago
        https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/feed-reader-replacements-firefox https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/feed-reader-replacement... It didn't destroy them. It turned them static and can also create a `Firefox feeds backup.opml` that can be imported by feed readers. Sure this may not be the best situation but they didn't simply destroy live bookmarks.
        msla 6y ago
        Well, I guess your mileage may vary on that one.
- draw_down 6y ago
  > How'd that work out? Can you say what your point is here? Because, "how that worked out" is, Facebook is one of the most valuable companies in the world, and the president of the United States posts on Twitter every day. Haven't heard a whole lot about Blogger lately.
- elicash 6y ago
  Mostly the way it worked out is that a lot of advertising for blogs and other websites dried up and shifted to Facebook and Google. This isn't the whole story, certainly, but it's probably the biggest story of what happened. While I'm excited about shifts to membership, I do think fundamentally the advertising landscape also needs to change.
- ksec 6y ago
  I have never stopped using RSS for nearly 20 years now. The beauty of RSS and RSS client is that I choose my own source. And RSS client compared to FB tends to be much higher information density, Command Click to open everything I like in new Tab and I have lots ( and too many ) to read. I think twitter replaces some form of blog post more than anything.
jtbayly 6y ago
This is, on its surface, a product announcement, but at its core it is actually another great explanation of why podcasts shouldn't be submitting themselves to Spotify.
tantalor 6y ago
> that feed can be put in your favorite podcast app Not necessarily. Not all podcasts apps support "manually" adding feeds. https://transistor.fm/add-podcast https://transistor.fm/add-podcast > You can't currently manually add podcast RSS feeds to these apps: Spotify, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Play, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio App
- felipemesquita 6y ago
  A good requirement to what’s considered a podcast would be that it’s published as an RSS feed. Shows that are exclusive to an app aren’t really podcasts and the apps that don’t let you add a podcast’s feed aren’t podcast players.
  - tantalor 6y ago
    Podcast apps don't need to let you add a feed because users expect podcast apps to have a comprehensive built-in index of podcasts. If you open the app and nothing is there, you install a better app. That index could come from search/crawl or publishers. The big apps require publishers to manually register their podcast: Apple: https://podcastsconnect.apple.com/my-podcasts/new-feed https://podcastsconnect.apple.com/my-podcasts/new-feed Google: https://play.google.com/music/podcasts/portal https://play.google.com/music/podcasts/portal Sticher: https://partners.stitcher.com/join#signup https://partners.stitcher.com/join#signup Spotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/submit https://podcasters.spotify.com/submit I think the main reason for this requirement is licensing. By default apps cannot safely redistribute copyrighted podcast content. You have to specifically approve Stitcher etc. to handle your material. https://www.lifewire.com/legal-side-of-rss-feeds-3469296 https://www.lifewire.com/legal-side-of-rss-feeds-3469296
    - jtbayly 6y ago
      Google Podcast does not require you to register your podcast. They are not distributing anything copyrighted. They find an RSS feed for a podcast on the web, and they make it available for you to find via search. Also, private podcasts exist, where you need to put in an RSS feed that isn't in any public listing. If you didn't read the article, you really should, along with this one[0]. Spotify and Stitcher really are special (bad) cases. [0]: https://stratechery.com/2019/shopify-and-the-power-of-platforms/ https://stratechery.com/2019/shopify-and-the-power-of-platfo...
draw_down 6y ago
It’s ok to charge for your podcast. I don’t think this fancy footwork of attempting to define it as “open” is necessary, nor particularly useful.
dgellow 6y ago
The free and open source software world need much discussions on this “open vs free (as in bier)” dichotomy... I dream of a world where lot of indie open source developers are actually paid for their work by something else than Google or Facebook!
- markshepard 6y ago
  Well said!
- andrey_utkin 6y ago
  In your dream world, what do regular people pay for?
  - dgellow 6y ago
    That’s something to explore. In my vision people pay for packaged software, such as a packaged deb or rpm or whatever format consumers want to buy. They get access to the sources too, and can build themselves if that’s what they want. I would really like to be able to buy services for my raspberry pi for example, knowing that I will get a packaged software that is maintained and tested. I have no issues to setup stuff myself, but if I can have for example a media player that I can buy and install via an APT equivalent, I would be quite happy. I find it really weird that I never had to pay for VLC given the amount of time I spent using it (I list it in my top 3 softwares of all time). Also I want to be able to spend my time creating and selling tools and services that people can easily shop for and install. Basically steam, but not for command line and services. I find it really strange that we expect open source software to be free and have developers asking for donations instead of having more standard market dynamics. We don’t have this for games, or arts, or anything else that I’m aware of. I know I can donate, I’ve done it multiple time. But I don’t think that make sense.
perseusprime11 6y ago
Not sure if I want to start paying for podcasts without knowing if I will enjoy or learn anything from them.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  The Ben Thompson episodes of Gruber’s podcast would give you a good idea.
valera_rozuvan 6y ago
On the topic of music, copyright, and free stuff. When you think of music and the big picture, bands should be giving music away for free (Radiohead!). This is done so as to create new fans and reach more people who might come to concerts in the future. Or (gasp!) actually pay for an album to support their favorite music performer. Musicians should be thinking about creating a relationship with their intended audience. They should tap into the networked age, and bring music out of the low space it occupied in the past between the producer and consumer. Bring music into the wide multi-national and multi-lingual community. To understand and to make meaning of it all - is the key of the 21st century. Not to monetize.
- hinkley 6y ago
  So, they should be doing things for free to get “exposure”?
quadrangle 6y ago
We need to break out of the entire dichotomy between paywalls vs ads. Both of those models are deeply anti-social at their core. Of course, it's still essential that we fund creative work. But we need to stop presuming that the only options are paywalls or ads. If paywalls or ads bring enough funding, then the money exists. We just need to work out how to distribute it to the creative workers by means that aren't so compromised.
- cwyers 6y ago
  What are the other options?
  - quadrangle 6y ago
    - public funding (i.e. tax-supported) - private grants - crowdfunding patronage (without paywalls, actual donations) - business support of commons / ecosystem that is shared among businesses in the crowdfunding domain, it's still rare but not unheard of to have pure uncompromised patronage, e.g. https://www.peppercarrot.com/ https://www.peppercarrot.com/ having no paywalls, FLO licensing, and no ads among efforts to build more effective mass patronage, there's Snowdrift.coop (not yet fully launched)
obenn 6y ago
I love the idea and the article. My only criticism of the podcast is that I wish there was a sample episode available.
em-bee 6y ago
rss is indeed exactly like email. i even have my rss feeds forwarded to my email, using an email client to read them. that allows me to tag, annotate or even delete rss entries. entries are also saved permanently and don't disappear when the publisher decides to remove an entry.

65 points by Amorymeltzer 6y ago

eykd 6y ago

I remember when people said that RSS and blogs were dead, and they'd just be posting to Twitter and Facebook instead. How'd that work out? I'm really glad to see smart Publishers like Ben Thompson looking to head the Aggregators off at the pass.

msla 6y ago
I remember when Firefox destroyed my RSS bookmarks with no opportunity for recourse.
- ChrisSD 6y ago
  The recourse is addons.
  - msla 6y ago
    Destroying bookmarks goes a bit beyond what addons can fix.
    - ChrisSD 6y ago
      https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/feed-reader-replacements-firefox https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/feed-reader-replacement... It didn't destroy them. It turned them static and can also create a `Firefox feeds backup.opml` that can be imported by feed readers. Sure this may not be the best situation but they didn't simply destroy live bookmarks.
      - msla 6y ago
        Well, I guess your mileage may vary on that one.
draw_down 6y ago
> How'd that work out? Can you say what your point is here? Because, "how that worked out" is, Facebook is one of the most valuable companies in the world, and the president of the United States posts on Twitter every day. Haven't heard a whole lot about Blogger lately.
elicash 6y ago
Mostly the way it worked out is that a lot of advertising for blogs and other websites dried up and shifted to Facebook and Google. This isn't the whole story, certainly, but it's probably the biggest story of what happened. While I'm excited about shifts to membership, I do think fundamentally the advertising landscape also needs to change.
ksec 6y ago
I have never stopped using RSS for nearly 20 years now. The beauty of RSS and RSS client is that I choose my own source. And RSS client compared to FB tends to be much higher information density, Command Click to open everything I like in new Tab and I have lots ( and too many ) to read. I think twitter replaces some form of blog post more than anything.

jtbayly 6y ago

This is, on its surface, a product announcement, but at its core it is actually another great explanation of why podcasts shouldn't be submitting themselves to Spotify.

tantalor 6y ago

> that feed can be put in your favorite podcast app Not necessarily. Not all podcasts apps support "manually" adding feeds. https://transistor.fm/add-podcast https://transistor.fm/add-podcast > You can't currently manually add podcast RSS feeds to these apps: Spotify, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Play, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio App

felipemesquita 6y ago
A good requirement to what’s considered a podcast would be that it’s published as an RSS feed. Shows that are exclusive to an app aren’t really podcasts and the apps that don’t let you add a podcast’s feed aren’t podcast players.
- tantalor 6y ago
  Podcast apps don't need to let you add a feed because users expect podcast apps to have a comprehensive built-in index of podcasts. If you open the app and nothing is there, you install a better app. That index could come from search/crawl or publishers. The big apps require publishers to manually register their podcast: Apple: https://podcastsconnect.apple.com/my-podcasts/new-feed https://podcastsconnect.apple.com/my-podcasts/new-feed Google: https://play.google.com/music/podcasts/portal https://play.google.com/music/podcasts/portal Sticher: https://partners.stitcher.com/join#signup https://partners.stitcher.com/join#signup Spotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/submit https://podcasters.spotify.com/submit I think the main reason for this requirement is licensing. By default apps cannot safely redistribute copyrighted podcast content. You have to specifically approve Stitcher etc. to handle your material. https://www.lifewire.com/legal-side-of-rss-feeds-3469296 https://www.lifewire.com/legal-side-of-rss-feeds-3469296
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    Google Podcast does not require you to register your podcast. They are not distributing anything copyrighted. They find an RSS feed for a podcast on the web, and they make it available for you to find via search. Also, private podcasts exist, where you need to put in an RSS feed that isn't in any public listing. If you didn't read the article, you really should, along with this one[0]. Spotify and Stitcher really are special (bad) cases. [0]: https://stratechery.com/2019/shopify-and-the-power-of-platforms/ https://stratechery.com/2019/shopify-and-the-power-of-platfo...

draw_down 6y ago

It’s ok to charge for your podcast. I don’t think this fancy footwork of attempting to define it as “open” is necessary, nor particularly useful.

dgellow 6y ago

The free and open source software world need much discussions on this “open vs free (as in bier)” dichotomy... I dream of a world where lot of indie open source developers are actually paid for their work by something else than Google or Facebook!

markshepard 6y ago
Well said!
andrey_utkin 6y ago
In your dream world, what do regular people pay for?
- dgellow 6y ago
  That’s something to explore. In my vision people pay for packaged software, such as a packaged deb or rpm or whatever format consumers want to buy. They get access to the sources too, and can build themselves if that’s what they want. I would really like to be able to buy services for my raspberry pi for example, knowing that I will get a packaged software that is maintained and tested. I have no issues to setup stuff myself, but if I can have for example a media player that I can buy and install via an APT equivalent, I would be quite happy. I find it really weird that I never had to pay for VLC given the amount of time I spent using it (I list it in my top 3 softwares of all time). Also I want to be able to spend my time creating and selling tools and services that people can easily shop for and install. Basically steam, but not for command line and services. I find it really strange that we expect open source software to be free and have developers asking for donations instead of having more standard market dynamics. We don’t have this for games, or arts, or anything else that I’m aware of. I know I can donate, I’ve done it multiple time. But I don’t think that make sense.

perseusprime11 6y ago

Not sure if I want to start paying for podcasts without knowing if I will enjoy or learn anything from them.

1123581321 6y ago
The Ben Thompson episodes of Gruber’s podcast would give you a good idea.

valera_rozuvan 6y ago

On the topic of music, copyright, and free stuff. When you think of music and the big picture, bands should be giving music away for free (Radiohead!). This is done so as to create new fans and reach more people who might come to concerts in the future. Or (gasp!) actually pay for an album to support their favorite music performer. Musicians should be thinking about creating a relationship with their intended audience. They should tap into the networked age, and bring music out of the low space it occupied in the past between the producer and consumer. Bring music into the wide multi-national and multi-lingual community. To understand and to make meaning of it all - is the key of the 21st century. Not to monetize.

hinkley 6y ago
So, they should be doing things for free to get “exposure”?

quadrangle 6y ago

We need to break out of the entire dichotomy between paywalls vs ads. Both of those models are deeply anti-social at their core. Of course, it's still essential that we fund creative work. But we need to stop presuming that the only options are paywalls or ads. If paywalls or ads bring enough funding, then the money exists. We just need to work out how to distribute it to the creative workers by means that aren't so compromised.

cwyers 6y ago
What are the other options?
- quadrangle 6y ago
  - public funding (i.e. tax-supported) - private grants - crowdfunding patronage (without paywalls, actual donations) - business support of commons / ecosystem that is shared among businesses in the crowdfunding domain, it's still rare but not unheard of to have pure uncompromised patronage, e.g. https://www.peppercarrot.com/ https://www.peppercarrot.com/ having no paywalls, FLO licensing, and no ads among efforts to build more effective mass patronage, there's Snowdrift.coop (not yet fully launched)

obenn 6y ago

I love the idea and the article. My only criticism of the podcast is that I wish there was a sample episode available.

em-bee 6y ago

rss is indeed exactly like email. i even have my rss feeds forwarded to my email, using an email client to read them. that allows me to tag, annotate or even delete rss entries. entries are also saved permanently and don't disappear when the publisher decides to remove an entry.