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> Salaries are off the charts Just to add another data point, Lidl is also the retailer that pays the best market salaries in the Eastern-European country wher

> Salaries are off the charts Just to add another data point, Lidl is also the retailer that pays the best market salaries in the Eastern-European country where I live in (they actually included that in several of their hiring ads), and I'm talking about shop people like cashiers and the people that put things on the shelves. > They are getting into the car sales and recycle business as well. In here they've also opened a tourism agency that does quite well (or used to do before the virus hit). I agree though about the big difference between the German and US management. I have a close friend that works at the regional Lidl HQ and she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" (I'm not sure how it translates into German) when addressing herself to her bosses on the company's hallways (said friend used to work for a big US company before moving to Lidl). She was lucky though because not a week after her arrival there was a company-wide email coming from the powers that be instructing the employees to use the less formal singular "you" instead of the more formal plural "you", to which all the employees in the company acquiesced.

occamrazor 7y ago
I guess you mean the 2nd person form (du or ihr fir singular or plural) instead of the 3rd person plural (Sie), which is the courtesy form fir singular and plural. Yes, in German it’s a big deal, roughly the same as saying “Hey dude” instead of “Good morning Mr Smith”.
- chx 7y ago
  Parent says Eastern European country, well, I had the bad luck to be born in Hungary (am Canadian now), and I fully understand what happened. It's a generation divide. I am 45 and I am one of the oldest for whom it doesn't matter and looks downright outdated but even to many in my age cohort and especially older it's exceptionally offensive, irrespectful to use the familiar form of "you". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrase#Forms_for_%22you%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrase#Forms_fo... With a huge emphasis on irrespectful -- it's downright disdainful to call someone so without asking for permission to address them so. There is a tradition -- or rather was -- where they used to toast on the occassion of switching from formal address to informal. It's that big of a deal: there was a ritual, simple as it was, on switching the form of address. In the 1920-30s the gendarmerie used to address everyone informally and it was really offensive and a form of asserting dominance -- it was always the superior, the elder who offered the inferior, the younger to switch from formal to informal thus the gendarmerie not even offering just using it declared they are vastly superior to everyone. And the phrase still exists for such offensive behaviour. It really is -- or rather was -- a big deal. I am saying, it was, because starting the late 90s with the spread of Internet and pseudo-anonimity all this just became outdated -- you had no idea whom you are talking to so observing the old rules were impossible. And those who have grown up with this simply didn't bother learning the rules. For me, when I was 18, it was a Big Deal that at our high school graduation party our class leader teacher allowed everyone to switch from formal to informal. It was basically the only time in my life when something like that happened, then I started using the 'Net shortly after (all this was in '93) and this stuff was just washed away.
  - andarleen 7y ago
    Very interesting similarity with Romania. Wondering if that’s because of the cultural link between the two countries or wether it’s something common across east Europe. In romania lords (either romanian or hungarian) demanded serfs to address to them in second person, and thus it became formal speech.
  - xnyan 7y ago
    It was somewhat similar in eastern Ukraine when I lived there from 2007-2009, but perhaps not so intense. Russian is not my first language, so at first I would always play it safe and speak formally - to young children, to dogs, to people my age. People thought it was pretty funny.
  - stereolambda 7y ago
    In Polish the polite way is not plural you, but Sir/Madam in third person. (Which is an interesting artifact of social history, with lots of petty nobility and other classes partly adapting that style even long ago.) There was also the toast, which is still performed in some conservative circles, I think. I am in my late 20s and did find it excessive when university students from former Soviet Union (not knowing Polish well) use the polite form "pan"/"pani" for fellow students. I think there was some mis-mapping of forms. But otherwise it should be used in any situation when there is a hint of power imbalance or transactional relation. Informal to people at parties, formal to a store attendant and such. For example, I think that the fact that high school students are addressed by teachers with informal "ty", but are required to address them with "pan" is very demeaning and adds to the soul-warping, prison-like atmosphere of schools. At the university level, removing this felt like fresh air. Recently there is a push in corporate/"hip" circles to use the informal way everywhere and even many young people don't like it. Many want to be able to hide behind "pan"/"pani" from your sales, marketing or otherwise pushy BS. I think that "ty" has to come with some expectation of sincerity and equality. On the other hand, I find random French or German websites addressing their users with vous/Sie hilarious for some reason. It makes the relation seem businessy. Which okay, it often is in the modern internet.
- ido 7y ago
  I don't know where you're at but I have never seen this treated as that big of a deal in my 8 years of living in Austria & 7 in Germany unless you're talking to the prime minister (and especially not if you're obviously not a native speaker). Maybe more comparable to addressing someone by their first name instead of Mr./Ms./Mrs. <last-name>.
  - pvitz 7y ago
    That might not be an issue on the countryside (everything outside Vienna ;), but it is definitely very impolite to address another adult person with "du" instead of "Sie" if they have not offered you to call them with the informal pronoun. However, that might be different with younger people.
    - Merem 7y ago
      Most definitely. Being relatively young, I don't think it's any different. In a work environment it's always "Sie", until one is offered "du". First name/family name depends on how companies/individuals handle it. Apart from that, people handle it differently. "Sie" basically always for people older than you and some use "du" for others around your age (unless it's in a more professional setting). There is no difference between the countryside and cities.
      - bigiain 7y ago
        I wonder if I'm the only person stomping round the house now singing: Sie! Sie hast! Sie Hast Mich!
        ginko 7y ago
        *Sie haben
        ido 7y ago
        I would guess they misspelled "hasst" ("she hates me")?
- SturgeonsLaw 7y ago
  One of the perks of being an Aussie is calling everyone from the frontline workers to the C-suite 'mate'
  - deoxxa 7y ago
    Luckily the C-suite get their own C-word for proper etiquette.
  - vertis 7y ago
    I don't think I've ever seen someone at a tech company in Australia refer to someone as 'mate'. Certainly not C-suite. For the most part, I find the use of mate as obnoxious at worst and awkward at best.
    - flingo 7y ago
      In Australia, the words "mate" and "cunt" have seemingly-opposite meanings, to what an American-English speaker might think.
- TravelPiglet 7y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen Similar in Sweden 50 years ago.
  - eru 7y ago
    Their old system reminds me of some things I dimly remember from old German media. But even more complicated, it seems.
- vidarh 7y ago
  > Yes, in German it’s a big deal, roughly the same as saying “Hey dude” instead of “Good morning Mr Smith”. It's been changing for decades across a lot of languages. I grew up in Norway where these forms were dying out as I was a child (70's/80's) and mostly used to older people, to the point where they're now mostly used sarcastically to imply someone is a pompous ass or to very old people or in very formal situations. But go back another decade or two and it was common. When I moved to the UK in 2000, even that was a weird shift up for me in formality (being called "sir" in shops, and having people actually use "mister" in front of my last name) compared to Norway. But by the 90's my French and German teacher had both insisted we learn to use the formal forms but also both told stories about how that would already then sometimes make you seem old and stuffy, and to listen for what others said and if in doubt ask and to roughly assume we could get away with the informal form with our own age group and younger but default to the formal forms for older people just in case. My own experience has been that most people I've met in Germany on business trips mostly have thought I've been more formal than necessary at first and told me I can use "du", because I've erred on the side of caution, but it's also varied a lot by location and age group and situation. Since I use my German relatively I'd rather start out too formal than misjudge the situation the other direction.
  - sideshowb 7y ago
    Interesting how currently the formal forms appear to be dying out, but back when English went through the same process it was the informal form ("thee/thou") that died.
  - phaer 7y ago
    > and mostly used to older people, to the point where they're now mostly used sarcastically to imply someone is a pompous ass or to very old people or in very formal situations. I'd say that sounds pretty similar to how it's used among German speakers, at least those who are 30 or younger.
  - checkyoursudo 7y ago
    I've lived in both Germany and currently Sweden. I have asked about the formal address here in Sweden, and the only time someone ever said you might use it is when talking to one of the royal family (while trying to suppress a laugh). Most younger people respond by saying that we don't have a formal-informal distinction here, which in practice is pretty true. I have a good friend who spent half his childhood in Germany and then moved here (fluent in English, Deutsch, and Svenska). I asked about whether he would use formal or informal when visiting back home in Germany, or when talking to another German using German here in Sweden. Without hesitating, he said he always uses formal. I have another German friend, who has been here only for about a year so far, of whom I asked the same: "Definitely I would use informal with any German here." When I was in Germany, I could easily get away with using informal with anyone, because as clearly a foreigner with only moderate language skills, one can be forgiven many faux pas. Interestingly, my spouse who is a fluent German speaker but also not native always falls into using formal address. She is quite often reprimanded for being too formal in situations that do not call for it. But that formal training was really rigorously applied, so she cannot help it. Even with our close friends sometimes. W.r.t. my German-Swede friend, after we talked about it, he postulated that the reason he always defaults to formal is that he left Germany as a child, and so he never went through the transitory phase where children start to learn to talk to adults as equals.
- brummm 7y ago
  A lot of the comments below indicate that that the Du/Sie distinction is something old fashioned and young people don't do this anymore. This is arguably false. Even though it might not be at the same level as it was 70 or 80 years ago, this distinction is still very much part of the German language and society. With people my age I would probably always use the informal Du, but only in informal situations. In case of formal interactions, as part of a business transaction, etc. I would probably always go to the Sie if I didn't know the person and would expect the same in reverse. Anything else would probably be perceived as lacking respect. English doesn't have anything equivalent except maybe first name/last name basis, so it's always hard to explain to Americans. Of course, as a foreigner things are always less strict and one gets some slack for not speaking the language perfectly.
  - t0mas88 7y ago
    It's a cultural thing that's subject to change. The Netherlands technically has two forms as well, but the use of the formal one in practice has greatly reduced and people don't put much weight on the distinction anymore. Certainly wouldn't get offended if you used the informal one. Used to be different 50 years ago.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  Yes, in German it’s a big deal, roughly the same as saying “Hey dude” instead of “Good morning Mr Smith”. Americans have the word “buddy” which comes from the Welsh word “butt” (don’t snigger). It is always acceptable for any Welsh person to address any other Welsh person as “butt”. Well here in South Wales anyway, it may be different in North Wales.
andarleen 7y ago
I hear a lot of horror stories about German management working at Cluj Napoca’s tech companies, and beyond. If left unchecked they will continue doing so.
ido 7y ago
This is very old-fashioned & I guess geographically dependent: we used to live in Vienna where you'd expect to use Sie (formal) with any adult you don't personally know where as we now live in Berlin where everyone uses du (informal). Either way nobody who isn't an asshole will get a non-native speaker in trouble for mixing these up & even in Austria my experience was that they will just be a bit perplexed but continue speaking as if the "du faux pas" didn't happen.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  It was a bit surprising to me to see that in Spain you only use the formal plural with much older people, if then, whereas in Greece you'd use it with any stranger that wasn't about your age AND you had some rapport with. I guess I expected cultures to be similar in who gets the polite treatment, but they're really not.
  - collyw 7y ago
    Latin American Spainsh seems to be a bit more formal and "old fashioned", but varies a lot from country to country.
  - type0 7y ago
    Greece is east European in that regard, possibly influence of orthodox church if I would guess.
wastedhours 7y ago
Tu vs voi?
- yread 7y ago
  Tu vs vous. Slavic languages (OP says Eastern Europe) use 2nd person plural for formal 'you' as well
  - wastedhours 7y ago
    Yeah, I was assuming Romanian with tu as the informal, and voi for the formal.
    - yread 7y ago
      Oh, sorry, I assumed you had a typo in the French.
- eu 7y ago
  Kind of, more like dumneata or dumneavoastră.
LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
Another data point from Lidls homeland regarding the wage of the "shop people" from about 10 years ago. While we had endless political discussions about minimum wage there were numbers of 7,50EUR to 8,50EUR per hour in the air at that time. Don't remember exactly anymore. What i DO remember though is that they had signs in the shops which you couldn't miss when standing at the cashier. They read 10EUR per hour, and later 11 to 12. They don't do that in shop signaling anymore, but nowadays it is around 15EUR i believe, while other retailers/discounters pay significantly less, except ALDI. And we still have that discussion over a mandatory minimum wage in all sectors, and it is ridiculously low.
- eru 7y ago
  Lidl and Aldi both expect a lot from their employees. The high productivity justifies the pay. Not everyone wants such an intense job. So I am not sure it is a good idea to force eg other retailers into the same strategy. They already have Aldi and Lidl to compete with on the labour market, so there's already opportunity for workers to get higher pay, if they want to make that bargain.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
    I know that. Thing is, the other retailers don't treat their employees any better, have usually higher prices, but pay less. What to do?
    - eru 7y ago
      I'm not talking about bad treatment. I'm talking about hard work. But 'what to do?' is easy to answer in principle but hard to implement in practice: lower barriers to entry for new companies, and for companies wanting to expand into other industries or markets. Make it easy for workers to move between jobs. (By, for example, not tying health insurance to your job.)
      - LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
        While i'm not working there, i casually know some people who did at the store level, shelving/cashier. It's not less hard at f.e. Edeka or Rewe either. That's what i meant. And health insurance isn't tied to a job here. And when you are shopping, if you are not absolutely ignorant, you can see and compare the range of tasks a single person has to do where and when. There is not much difference to be seen, and backstage it isn't different either. edit: I'm unsure what you mean by lower barriers to entry. I'm all in for barriers if they ensure following safe and healthy practice!
_the_inflator 7y ago
German in Management here. This "Du/Sie" thing is a local shit test in Germany in my opinion. Comparable to what I experienced in strictly hierarchical enterprises like Sony US in the early 2010th, where at least one Senior Manager would only talk to an employee directly, instead only to her senior manager (same level BS). Informal is owning the workforce finally, it is on the rise, and you can use it as a shit detector. People who value hierarchy over merits will refer to these manners. Others not. :)
- TurboHaskal 7y ago
  I always struggled with this in Germany as a foreigner. Coming from a country in which the so called formal form changed significantly in the last decades and is now reserved to people you don't want to get along with (that's how politicians refer to members of other parties, or how customer support starts to address you after you tell them that you want to quit the contract), I always ended up using the informal form, which translated into many funny stares.
  - eru 7y ago
    Many people who formally learn German as a second language (as opposed to just picking it up on the spot) seem to default to Sie. I guess that's what they teach in the Goethe institute. Defaulting to Sie seems like a safe default. At worst you get some funny looks for being overly formal, but you don't insult anyone.
    - xnyan 7y ago
      I don’t think it’s just German. When I started learning Russian, 95% of what I was taught was on вы (plural/formal you). When you’re a beginner you really lean on stock phrases and bits you learned in class, so when I moved to Kharkov everything I said was formal for about six months. It took a year before I really stopped speaking to children or pets formally. It makes sense I guess, if you’re not sure formal is probably safer than informal (although speaking to someone formally when you should be speaking informally can also be insulting.) It’s not just knowing when to use formal/informal - native speakers often forget this but in languages with verbs that conjugate, a beginner learner may not be as good with the Du conjugations as they are with Sie. Again, when you are just starting with the language or you’re not confident you lean on repeating things you’ve learned and if you were taught Sie then that’s what you do.
wolfgke 7y ago
> I agree though about the big difference between the German and US management. I have a close friend that works at the regional Lidl HQ and she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" (I'm not sure how it translates into German) when addressing herself to her bosses on the company's hallways Using "du" instead of "Sie" for adressing people can be a very serious issue. If you do this to a policeman, for example, you can be fined by typically 600 € in Germany (source: https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/beamtenbeleidigung/ https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/beamtenbeleidigung/). To give an analogue in the English language: you wouldn't address your boss with "yo nigga". So I believe the reprimand was rather rightfully. A rule in the German language is: in doubt, use the more formal language register. The "default language register" in German is typically "one register more formal" than the "default language register" in English.
- VHRanger 7y ago
  I'm French Canadian and that sounds insane. In France, there's a soft tendency to use the plural you ("vous") a lot more because of the more rigid French class system. In Quebec it's seen as a snobby thing to do due to the more working ass culture. That said, in neither country would anyone ever get a monetary fine for using one over the other. That's crazytown
  - bdauvergne 7y ago
    I'm French French, we just think you and Walloons are rednecks with no education, see you ;)
    - yardie 7y ago
      I'm married to a frog, and they really do believe the quebecois are their poor, dumb, country cousins.
      - sitkack 7y ago
        We had both a French exchange student and Quebecois exchange student in high school, he would frequently do a french impersonation of something akin to the Beverly Hillbillies and make the Quebecois girl cry. Being a town of rednecks ourselves everyone thought it was wonderful.
znpy 7y ago
> Just to add another data point, Lidl is also the retailer that pays the best market salaries in the Eastern-European country where I live in (they actually included that in several of their hiring ads), and I'm talking about shop people like cashiers and the people that put things on the shelves. Just to add another data point: in the small town when I come from (southern italy) the Lidl store was a total failure and a complete mess. They acquired land built the whole building, opened short of staff, operated briefly (always short on staff and with a huge turnover) and then had huge problems with (afaik) the legality of the contracts for employees and allegedly employee mistreating. That Lidl store didn't last long, to put it nicely, and the building is still on sale many years after that.
AdmiralAsshat 7y ago
I'm sure anyone who works for a Japanese company would understand. The class/power dynamics are built into the language itself, and in most situations it is not socially appropriate to respond to your boss in the same "register" as they might address you.
Bayart 7y ago
>I have a close friend that works at the regional Lidl HQ and she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" Sounds reasonable. If someone did the same to me in a professional setting my instinct would be to treat it as an intentional lack of respect. Albeit my language is French (but it functions the same as German in that case).
- smnrchrds 7y ago
  As someone who is familiar with formal/informal you difference in 3 languages (French, Farsi, and Azerbaijani), I had the same reaction. But I guess things are difference in German.
dirtnugget 7y ago
German here. I absolutely loathe the formal form. It can be compared to using "Sir" with your superiors. While it is super common to address people informally in younger IT companies, in more traditional ones it is mostly informal. If they talk formal, run. It's most likely a shithole. This level of formality between people I find very patriarchal and outdated. Also, with people you just met it becomes somewhat awkward to always ask for which formality to use. English is doing very well without it.
- namibj 7y ago
  When meeting new people, it's actually a pretty good indication of whether the interaction is strictly business, or might include off-topic conversations.
stx 7y ago
> she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" (I'm not sure how it translates into German) Are Germans usually this strict about language in a professional setting? I am from the USA but worked for a company with offices in Germany for a couple years. They were formal in some ways but also made many jokes that could get you fired in the USA. Maybe my experience was the exception.

occamrazor 7y ago

I guess you mean the 2nd person form (du or ihr fir singular or plural) instead of the 3rd person plural (Sie), which is the courtesy form fir singular and plural. Yes, in German it’s a big deal, roughly the same as saying “Hey dude” instead of “Good morning Mr Smith”.

chx 7y ago
Parent says Eastern European country, well, I had the bad luck to be born in Hungary (am Canadian now), and I fully understand what happened. It's a generation divide. I am 45 and I am one of the oldest for whom it doesn't matter and looks downright outdated but even to many in my age cohort and especially older it's exceptionally offensive, irrespectful to use the familiar form of "you". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrase#Forms_for_%22you%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrase#Forms_fo... With a huge emphasis on irrespectful -- it's downright disdainful to call someone so without asking for permission to address them so. There is a tradition -- or rather was -- where they used to toast on the occassion of switching from formal address to informal. It's that big of a deal: there was a ritual, simple as it was, on switching the form of address. In the 1920-30s the gendarmerie used to address everyone informally and it was really offensive and a form of asserting dominance -- it was always the superior, the elder who offered the inferior, the younger to switch from formal to informal thus the gendarmerie not even offering just using it declared they are vastly superior to everyone. And the phrase still exists for such offensive behaviour. It really is -- or rather was -- a big deal. I am saying, it was, because starting the late 90s with the spread of Internet and pseudo-anonimity all this just became outdated -- you had no idea whom you are talking to so observing the old rules were impossible. And those who have grown up with this simply didn't bother learning the rules. For me, when I was 18, it was a Big Deal that at our high school graduation party our class leader teacher allowed everyone to switch from formal to informal. It was basically the only time in my life when something like that happened, then I started using the 'Net shortly after (all this was in '93) and this stuff was just washed away.
- andarleen 7y ago
  Very interesting similarity with Romania. Wondering if that’s because of the cultural link between the two countries or wether it’s something common across east Europe. In romania lords (either romanian or hungarian) demanded serfs to address to them in second person, and thus it became formal speech.
- xnyan 7y ago
  It was somewhat similar in eastern Ukraine when I lived there from 2007-2009, but perhaps not so intense. Russian is not my first language, so at first I would always play it safe and speak formally - to young children, to dogs, to people my age. People thought it was pretty funny.
- stereolambda 7y ago
  In Polish the polite way is not plural you, but Sir/Madam in third person. (Which is an interesting artifact of social history, with lots of petty nobility and other classes partly adapting that style even long ago.) There was also the toast, which is still performed in some conservative circles, I think. I am in my late 20s and did find it excessive when university students from former Soviet Union (not knowing Polish well) use the polite form "pan"/"pani" for fellow students. I think there was some mis-mapping of forms. But otherwise it should be used in any situation when there is a hint of power imbalance or transactional relation. Informal to people at parties, formal to a store attendant and such. For example, I think that the fact that high school students are addressed by teachers with informal "ty", but are required to address them with "pan" is very demeaning and adds to the soul-warping, prison-like atmosphere of schools. At the university level, removing this felt like fresh air. Recently there is a push in corporate/"hip" circles to use the informal way everywhere and even many young people don't like it. Many want to be able to hide behind "pan"/"pani" from your sales, marketing or otherwise pushy BS. I think that "ty" has to come with some expectation of sincerity and equality. On the other hand, I find random French or German websites addressing their users with vous/Sie hilarious for some reason. It makes the relation seem businessy. Which okay, it often is in the modern internet.
ido 7y ago
I don't know where you're at but I have never seen this treated as that big of a deal in my 8 years of living in Austria & 7 in Germany unless you're talking to the prime minister (and especially not if you're obviously not a native speaker). Maybe more comparable to addressing someone by their first name instead of Mr./Ms./Mrs. <last-name>.
- pvitz 7y ago
  That might not be an issue on the countryside (everything outside Vienna ;), but it is definitely very impolite to address another adult person with "du" instead of "Sie" if they have not offered you to call them with the informal pronoun. However, that might be different with younger people.
  - Merem 7y ago
    Most definitely. Being relatively young, I don't think it's any different. In a work environment it's always "Sie", until one is offered "du". First name/family name depends on how companies/individuals handle it. Apart from that, people handle it differently. "Sie" basically always for people older than you and some use "du" for others around your age (unless it's in a more professional setting). There is no difference between the countryside and cities.
    - bigiain 7y ago
      I wonder if I'm the only person stomping round the house now singing: Sie! Sie hast! Sie Hast Mich!
      - ginko 7y ago
        *Sie haben
        ido 7y ago
        I would guess they misspelled "hasst" ("she hates me")?
SturgeonsLaw 7y ago
One of the perks of being an Aussie is calling everyone from the frontline workers to the C-suite 'mate'
- deoxxa 7y ago
  Luckily the C-suite get their own C-word for proper etiquette.
- vertis 7y ago
  I don't think I've ever seen someone at a tech company in Australia refer to someone as 'mate'. Certainly not C-suite. For the most part, I find the use of mate as obnoxious at worst and awkward at best.
  - flingo 7y ago
    In Australia, the words "mate" and "cunt" have seemingly-opposite meanings, to what an American-English speaker might think.
TravelPiglet 7y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen Similar in Sweden 50 years ago.
- eru 7y ago
  Their old system reminds me of some things I dimly remember from old German media. But even more complicated, it seems.
vidarh 7y ago
> Yes, in German it’s a big deal, roughly the same as saying “Hey dude” instead of “Good morning Mr Smith”. It's been changing for decades across a lot of languages. I grew up in Norway where these forms were dying out as I was a child (70's/80's) and mostly used to older people, to the point where they're now mostly used sarcastically to imply someone is a pompous ass or to very old people or in very formal situations. But go back another decade or two and it was common. When I moved to the UK in 2000, even that was a weird shift up for me in formality (being called "sir" in shops, and having people actually use "mister" in front of my last name) compared to Norway. But by the 90's my French and German teacher had both insisted we learn to use the formal forms but also both told stories about how that would already then sometimes make you seem old and stuffy, and to listen for what others said and if in doubt ask and to roughly assume we could get away with the informal form with our own age group and younger but default to the formal forms for older people just in case. My own experience has been that most people I've met in Germany on business trips mostly have thought I've been more formal than necessary at first and told me I can use "du", because I've erred on the side of caution, but it's also varied a lot by location and age group and situation. Since I use my German relatively I'd rather start out too formal than misjudge the situation the other direction.
- sideshowb 7y ago
  Interesting how currently the formal forms appear to be dying out, but back when English went through the same process it was the informal form ("thee/thou") that died.
- phaer 7y ago
  > and mostly used to older people, to the point where they're now mostly used sarcastically to imply someone is a pompous ass or to very old people or in very formal situations. I'd say that sounds pretty similar to how it's used among German speakers, at least those who are 30 or younger.
- checkyoursudo 7y ago
  I've lived in both Germany and currently Sweden. I have asked about the formal address here in Sweden, and the only time someone ever said you might use it is when talking to one of the royal family (while trying to suppress a laugh). Most younger people respond by saying that we don't have a formal-informal distinction here, which in practice is pretty true. I have a good friend who spent half his childhood in Germany and then moved here (fluent in English, Deutsch, and Svenska). I asked about whether he would use formal or informal when visiting back home in Germany, or when talking to another German using German here in Sweden. Without hesitating, he said he always uses formal. I have another German friend, who has been here only for about a year so far, of whom I asked the same: "Definitely I would use informal with any German here." When I was in Germany, I could easily get away with using informal with anyone, because as clearly a foreigner with only moderate language skills, one can be forgiven many faux pas. Interestingly, my spouse who is a fluent German speaker but also not native always falls into using formal address. She is quite often reprimanded for being too formal in situations that do not call for it. But that formal training was really rigorously applied, so she cannot help it. Even with our close friends sometimes. W.r.t. my German-Swede friend, after we talked about it, he postulated that the reason he always defaults to formal is that he left Germany as a child, and so he never went through the transitory phase where children start to learn to talk to adults as equals.
brummm 7y ago
A lot of the comments below indicate that that the Du/Sie distinction is something old fashioned and young people don't do this anymore. This is arguably false. Even though it might not be at the same level as it was 70 or 80 years ago, this distinction is still very much part of the German language and society. With people my age I would probably always use the informal Du, but only in informal situations. In case of formal interactions, as part of a business transaction, etc. I would probably always go to the Sie if I didn't know the person and would expect the same in reverse. Anything else would probably be perceived as lacking respect. English doesn't have anything equivalent except maybe first name/last name basis, so it's always hard to explain to Americans. Of course, as a foreigner things are always less strict and one gets some slack for not speaking the language perfectly.
- t0mas88 7y ago
  It's a cultural thing that's subject to change. The Netherlands technically has two forms as well, but the use of the formal one in practice has greatly reduced and people don't put much weight on the distinction anymore. Certainly wouldn't get offended if you used the informal one. Used to be different 50 years ago.
goatinaboat 7y ago
Yes, in German it’s a big deal, roughly the same as saying “Hey dude” instead of “Good morning Mr Smith”. Americans have the word “buddy” which comes from the Welsh word “butt” (don’t snigger). It is always acceptable for any Welsh person to address any other Welsh person as “butt”. Well here in South Wales anyway, it may be different in North Wales.

andarleen 7y ago

I hear a lot of horror stories about German management working at Cluj Napoca’s tech companies, and beyond. If left unchecked they will continue doing so.

ido 7y ago

This is very old-fashioned & I guess geographically dependent: we used to live in Vienna where you'd expect to use Sie (formal) with any adult you don't personally know where as we now live in Berlin where everyone uses du (informal). Either way nobody who isn't an asshole will get a non-native speaker in trouble for mixing these up & even in Austria my experience was that they will just be a bit perplexed but continue speaking as if the "du faux pas" didn't happen.

StavrosK 7y ago
It was a bit surprising to me to see that in Spain you only use the formal plural with much older people, if then, whereas in Greece you'd use it with any stranger that wasn't about your age AND you had some rapport with. I guess I expected cultures to be similar in who gets the polite treatment, but they're really not.
- collyw 7y ago
  Latin American Spainsh seems to be a bit more formal and "old fashioned", but varies a lot from country to country.
- type0 7y ago
  Greece is east European in that regard, possibly influence of orthodox church if I would guess.

wastedhours 7y ago

Tu vs voi?

yread 7y ago
Tu vs vous. Slavic languages (OP says Eastern Europe) use 2nd person plural for formal 'you' as well
- wastedhours 7y ago
  Yeah, I was assuming Romanian with tu as the informal, and voi for the formal.
  - yread 7y ago
    Oh, sorry, I assumed you had a typo in the French.
eu 7y ago
Kind of, more like dumneata or dumneavoastră.

LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago

Another data point from Lidls homeland regarding the wage of the "shop people" from about 10 years ago. While we had endless political discussions about minimum wage there were numbers of 7,50EUR to 8,50EUR per hour in the air at that time. Don't remember exactly anymore. What i DO remember though is that they had signs in the shops which you couldn't miss when standing at the cashier. They read 10EUR per hour, and later 11 to 12. They don't do that in shop signaling anymore, but nowadays it is around 15EUR i believe, while other retailers/discounters pay significantly less, except ALDI. And we still have that discussion over a mandatory minimum wage in all sectors, and it is ridiculously low.

eru 7y ago
Lidl and Aldi both expect a lot from their employees. The high productivity justifies the pay. Not everyone wants such an intense job. So I am not sure it is a good idea to force eg other retailers into the same strategy. They already have Aldi and Lidl to compete with on the labour market, so there's already opportunity for workers to get higher pay, if they want to make that bargain.
- LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
  I know that. Thing is, the other retailers don't treat their employees any better, have usually higher prices, but pay less. What to do?
  - eru 7y ago
    I'm not talking about bad treatment. I'm talking about hard work. But 'what to do?' is easy to answer in principle but hard to implement in practice: lower barriers to entry for new companies, and for companies wanting to expand into other industries or markets. Make it easy for workers to move between jobs. (By, for example, not tying health insurance to your job.)
    - LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
      While i'm not working there, i casually know some people who did at the store level, shelving/cashier. It's not less hard at f.e. Edeka or Rewe either. That's what i meant. And health insurance isn't tied to a job here. And when you are shopping, if you are not absolutely ignorant, you can see and compare the range of tasks a single person has to do where and when. There is not much difference to be seen, and backstage it isn't different either. edit: I'm unsure what you mean by lower barriers to entry. I'm all in for barriers if they ensure following safe and healthy practice!

_the_inflator 7y ago

German in Management here. This "Du/Sie" thing is a local shit test in Germany in my opinion. Comparable to what I experienced in strictly hierarchical enterprises like Sony US in the early 2010th, where at least one Senior Manager would only talk to an employee directly, instead only to her senior manager (same level BS). Informal is owning the workforce finally, it is on the rise, and you can use it as a shit detector. People who value hierarchy over merits will refer to these manners. Others not. :)

TurboHaskal 7y ago
I always struggled with this in Germany as a foreigner. Coming from a country in which the so called formal form changed significantly in the last decades and is now reserved to people you don't want to get along with (that's how politicians refer to members of other parties, or how customer support starts to address you after you tell them that you want to quit the contract), I always ended up using the informal form, which translated into many funny stares.
- eru 7y ago
  Many people who formally learn German as a second language (as opposed to just picking it up on the spot) seem to default to Sie. I guess that's what they teach in the Goethe institute. Defaulting to Sie seems like a safe default. At worst you get some funny looks for being overly formal, but you don't insult anyone.
  - xnyan 7y ago
    I don’t think it’s just German. When I started learning Russian, 95% of what I was taught was on вы (plural/formal you). When you’re a beginner you really lean on stock phrases and bits you learned in class, so when I moved to Kharkov everything I said was formal for about six months. It took a year before I really stopped speaking to children or pets formally. It makes sense I guess, if you’re not sure formal is probably safer than informal (although speaking to someone formally when you should be speaking informally can also be insulting.) It’s not just knowing when to use formal/informal - native speakers often forget this but in languages with verbs that conjugate, a beginner learner may not be as good with the Du conjugations as they are with Sie. Again, when you are just starting with the language or you’re not confident you lean on repeating things you’ve learned and if you were taught Sie then that’s what you do.

wolfgke 7y ago

> I agree though about the big difference between the German and US management. I have a close friend that works at the regional Lidl HQ and she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" (I'm not sure how it translates into German) when addressing herself to her bosses on the company's hallways Using "du" instead of "Sie" for adressing people can be a very serious issue. If you do this to a policeman, for example, you can be fined by typically 600 € in Germany (source: https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/beamtenbeleidigung/ https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/beamtenbeleidigung/). To give an analogue in the English language: you wouldn't address your boss with "yo nigga". So I believe the reprimand was rather rightfully. A rule in the German language is: in doubt, use the more formal language register. The "default language register" in German is typically "one register more formal" than the "default language register" in English.

VHRanger 7y ago
I'm French Canadian and that sounds insane. In France, there's a soft tendency to use the plural you ("vous") a lot more because of the more rigid French class system. In Quebec it's seen as a snobby thing to do due to the more working ass culture. That said, in neither country would anyone ever get a monetary fine for using one over the other. That's crazytown
- bdauvergne 7y ago
  I'm French French, we just think you and Walloons are rednecks with no education, see you ;)
  - yardie 7y ago
    I'm married to a frog, and they really do believe the quebecois are their poor, dumb, country cousins.
    - sitkack 7y ago
      We had both a French exchange student and Quebecois exchange student in high school, he would frequently do a french impersonation of something akin to the Beverly Hillbillies and make the Quebecois girl cry. Being a town of rednecks ourselves everyone thought it was wonderful.

znpy 7y ago

> Just to add another data point, Lidl is also the retailer that pays the best market salaries in the Eastern-European country where I live in (they actually included that in several of their hiring ads), and I'm talking about shop people like cashiers and the people that put things on the shelves. Just to add another data point: in the small town when I come from (southern italy) the Lidl store was a total failure and a complete mess. They acquired land built the whole building, opened short of staff, operated briefly (always short on staff and with a huge turnover) and then had huge problems with (afaik) the legality of the contracts for employees and allegedly employee mistreating. That Lidl store didn't last long, to put it nicely, and the building is still on sale many years after that.

AdmiralAsshat 7y ago

I'm sure anyone who works for a Japanese company would understand. The class/power dynamics are built into the language itself, and in most situations it is not socially appropriate to respond to your boss in the same "register" as they might address you.

Bayart 7y ago

>I have a close friend that works at the regional Lidl HQ and she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" Sounds reasonable. If someone did the same to me in a professional setting my instinct would be to treat it as an intentional lack of respect. Albeit my language is French (but it functions the same as German in that case).

smnrchrds 7y ago
As someone who is familiar with formal/informal you difference in 3 languages (French, Farsi, and Azerbaijani), I had the same reaction. But I guess things are difference in German.

dirtnugget 7y ago

German here. I absolutely loathe the formal form. It can be compared to using "Sir" with your superiors. While it is super common to address people informally in younger IT companies, in more traditional ones it is mostly informal. If they talk formal, run. It's most likely a shithole. This level of formality between people I find very patriarchal and outdated. Also, with people you just met it becomes somewhat awkward to always ask for which formality to use. English is doing very well without it.

namibj 7y ago
When meeting new people, it's actually a pretty good indication of whether the interaction is strictly business, or might include off-topic conversations.

stx 7y ago

> she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" (I'm not sure how it translates into German) Are Germans usually this strict about language in a professional setting? I am from the USA but worked for a company with offices in Germany for a couple years. They were formal in some ways but also made many jokes that could get you fired in the USA. Maybe my experience was the exception.