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You must also take into account the history of intentional civil disobedience where the government has over reached and the population simply reaches the point

You must also take into account the history of intentional civil disobedience where the government has over reached and the population simply reaches the point where it refuses to comply. Prohibition is obviously a prime example of this, but if you consider various laws that once existed or are currently on the books but no longer enforced (think laws pertaining to racial segregation, sexuality, drug use, and such) you realize that being a law abiding citizen does not mean you are no longer allowed to think for yourself. Read up on "Jury Nullification" or "Jury Equity".

cmdli 6y ago
Civil disobedience typically involved still getting punished as a matter of protest to change public opinion. If Elon Musk is doing this as civil disobedience, he is using the resources of Tesla and the forced compliance of his workers in order to make a political statement. I don't really see that as better. Instead, it seems that Musk is doing this just because he thinks he can get away with it, or because he is simply angry with the elected officials of his county. In such a situation, Tesla and Elon Musk should rightfully be punished for their actions.
- mgolawala 6y ago
  Civil disobedience is typically, but not always, punished. We will have to see how this plays out. There is also the question of which branch of government gets to have a say in the enforcement of a law. Consider California's approach to marijuana use vs the Federal government's. Or consider how there are numerous sanctuary cities that are in defiance of Federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement. These things are complicated.
  - deleted 6y ago
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  - bcrosby95 6y ago
    It's not complicated because there is no conflicting guidance from the federal vs state governments. Once the federal government orders everyone to open up it will be unknown what the right answer is. States that want to continue with the lockdown will likely sue the federal government, or companies that want to open up would sue the state. The courts will weigh in and it will probably go "something something interstate commerce" and the federal government will win, forcing the states to open up. After that it really depends upon how states respond and you could be stuck in a giant game of chicken. This is where it might get complicated and risky - mostly for people trying to abide by the law. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But in this case, the government wont' really arrest you for not opening your car factory. But the state might arrest you for doing it. In the case of Marijuana, it's really quite simple: everyone in California using marijuana can be arrested by the federal government. They just choose not to, at least usually. ICE is a bit more complicated. They are trying to compel cooporation from local law enforcement, who is not responsible for enforcing immigration law. They aren't asking them to enforce it directly themselves though.
- kelnos 6y ago
  To be fair, Musk's tweet especially says if anyone is to be arrested for this, it should be him. > to make a political statement. I see it as more a business decision, and only secondarily a political statement.
  - justapassenger 6y ago
    “Dear Officer, you cannot arrest me. Did you even check Twitter?”
  - LanceH 6y ago
    He did say he no longer needed a house.
  - atoav 6y ago
    Or terrorism, depending on the perspective.
    - lightgreen 6y ago
      It’s not terrorism by definition of terrorism regardless of perspective. Same as a person is not a nazi just because someone disagrees with them. Same as speech is not violence. Etc etc etc.
      - JabavuAdams 6y ago
        You started off strong, but overreached. If I say to my spouse or child "You fucking stupid cunt, I've told you a thousand times to put the dishes away! You good for nothing piece of shit, you can't even get that right!" That's violence. EDIT> Speech is an act. That act can be violence.
        AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
        No, no that's not violence. Violence would be if you hit your child or spouse.
        deleted 6y ago
- LyndsySimon 6y ago
  > the forced compliance of his workers Can you provide a source for this? I have no idea what (if any) compensation Tesla workers receive while not working during the pandemic, nor do I know if those workers will be penalized for not working - particularly for not working while the factory is open in violation of state restrictions.
  - late2part 6y ago
    Firing someone if they don't do something is not forcing them. It shouldn't raise to duress in my opinion.
    - a9entroy 6y ago
      Firing someone because they didnt obey your order to break the law is not duress?
      - late2part 6y ago
        You’re begging the question that there is a law to break.
      - ryanlol 6y ago
        It’s not at all obvious that going to work in a factory that’s operating against a county order is breaking the law.
        0xFF0123 6y ago
        It's not at all obvious that it's not, either. At the very least, it's against the spirit of the order.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        The county order prohibits both businesses operating and individuals engaging in out-of-home activity except as explicitly permitted by the order, and violating a county public health order is a crime (misdemeanor) punishable by up jail. Automobile manufacturing is not one of the listed exceptions, so it is illegal both to operate (for the owner) and to go to work at (for the employees) such a business.
- deleted 6y ago
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- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > Instead, it seems that Musk is doing this just because he thinks he can get away with it, or because he is simply angry with the elected officials of his county. In such a situation, Tesla and Elon Musk should rightfully be punished for their actions. Here is the thing about the Tesla culture, which is like a more subdued one then the one at SpaceX: some people are 'all in' about the cause and are putting their Lives at risk working 10+ hours everyday. One of the reasons I decided to go work for Kimbal instead of Tesla was the mandatory Swing shift for Supply Chain (at the time) ahead of the Model 3 ramp. People were putting in 60+ hours in 4 day schedules. Burn out is not possible, its near exepected. They also offer really amazing Health Packages, like the best any other Multi-national corp ever offered me because they understood it as critical component to success in such an ambitious goal. At Kimbal's place I could do 60+ hours over 6 days, which if you've done either is taxing, but the former wipes you out and messes up your circadian rhythm, which as you get older is harder to re-adjust on the fly. If you honestly think there aren't people waiting to just go back to work at the HQ factory to do what they joined up for int first place then you haven't met many Tesla people, let alone any SpaceX guys. Is this fair? I think if Elon/HR has stipulated there are no consequences for those who can't or won't return, then, yes. The Factory has only just been able to recently turn things around after an amazing Manufacturing feat from the Fremont Team, only to have this stifled by the Local government, who oddly benefit a great deal from the revenue generated from Fremont. If any of you have been to Fremont, you'll know there isn't much Economic activity there, even for the East Bay. Lots of local businesses, little restaurants and some fast food places rely heavily on Tesla employees. This is a lose-lose situation which may be due to political reasons, but if a fine is all the stands in the way of making the deliveries back-log get smaller, then its worth it. (Elon is saying he is willing to get arrested for it?) People have paid in full for a Model Y, which has been refined due to Model 3's hard-earned lessons, the losses and missed opportunity costs are immense. If they have to move production of Y to Shanghai and re-import them to the US then not only is that a supply chain nightmare, but it completely undoes the cost-savings that made Shanghai imperative in the first place. I don't blame him, this has also boosted the stock price above 800 again, too. So the Market agrees with his decision.
  - podgaj 6y ago
    >some people are 'all in' about the cause and are putting their Lives at risk Jesus, the frickin Nazi Youth did the same thing! Why don't people ever see the leader worship and authoritarianism (fascism) in corporations?
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  >simply angry with the elected officials of his county Erica Pan received zero votes for her because she has never appeared on the ballot. She's an appointed not an elected official. This is her choice and the public has no possibility of direct electoral response to her decision to forbid Tesla opening.
- growlist 6y ago
  When it comes to a choice between Musk's judgement versus elected officials, I'd suggest the former has a superior track record to the latter. Not to mention, any punishment will blow straight back at them when Musk then moves the Tesla factory. It's quite amusing really.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    Even if Musk is right and the county officials are wrong, he still has to follow the law. If he thinks he can get away with breaking the law because he can threaten to move his business, I would support jail time for him. The attitude that having money puts one above the law is not something that should be tolerated.
    - jyrkesh 6y ago
      Do you support throwing non-violent drug offenders in prison too? Or are you in only in favor of jailing rich people who might actually have enough leverage to prove in court that the law is unjust (or better yet, completely unconstitutional)?
      - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
        I support jailing executives who willfully violate the law, especially if they think that they can get away with it by threatening to move their business elsewhere. We can't live in a society in which money buys you the right to violate the law. You can believe that the county's rules are unwise, but they're in place in order to protect public health. Right or wrong, Musk is violating those rules and thinks he'll get away with it because he runs an important company. There has to be a clear message that he won't get away with it. Fining him won't make a difference. Prison time might.
    - growlist 6y ago
      A public official tweeting 'F*ck Elon Musk' is hardly responsible behaviour either.
- nswest23 6y ago
  civil disobedience may typically involve punishment but it shouldn't be a requirement.
3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
There's definitely a great evil to laws which are either selectively or rarely enforced. Eventually they turn cancerous and are abused. For example, look at the Logan Act and its justification for spying on politicians.
- erichocean 6y ago
  The Logan Act has literally never resulted in a prosecution. Got one indictment though, in the 19th century.
  - hirundo 6y ago
    The Logan Act was used to pressure Michael Flynn into pleading guilty. That wasn't a first. It can be an effective threat without actually prosecuting anyone for it. That's more than a sufficient reason to repeal this blatantly unconstitutional law.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    So if it’s never used, why is it on the books? There’s plenty of evidence that laws are abused so the government can get what they want.
joe_the_user 6y ago
I only support civil disobedience for "human rights issues". That is the only thing really merits the term. Things appearing as civil disobedience for money issue are virtually always terrible - as soon as "radicalism" or "iconoclastism" becomes a business, it's worst business. Prohibition was a terrible policy but the people that fueled the defiance of prohibition were mobsters, scum that had a terrible and arguably on-going terrible effect on the country. Even 1960s drug proponents became awful at the point they became drug dealers.
- deathgrips 6y ago
  The ability to earn a living is a human right that no government can deprive you of without a good, specific reason and due process.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    It is not a human right to earn a living. And it is absolutely the right of a government to prevent you from working. Many jobs requiring government approval for example a doctor, lawyer, builder.
    - tathougies 6y ago
      Governments do not have rights, period. They exist solely at the consent and continued pleasure of the governed (or should at least). That is to say, every human has rights, because they are an individual human. The rights of people are self-evident and stem solely from the fact that people are human. Governments have no rights. There is nothing that is owed to them due to their existence as governments. Were a particular set of people not to form a government, no other government could rightfully enter to assert their 'right' to govern.
      - vadym909 6y ago
        I'd love to hear black or brown people adopt this as their motto.
jonstewart 6y ago
Oh yes, billionaires and corporations figured highly in Thoreau’s _Civil Disobedience_. From Walden Pond to Elon, it’s a straight line of coherent thought.
- ryankemper 6y ago
  I really think that the word "billionaire" needs to stop being used as a bad word. Billionaires are citizens too. They are bound (imperfectly) by laws. Therefore they too encounter situations where practicing civil disobedience makes sense.
  - j2kun 6y ago
    I recall the quote from Thoreau, saying we must also stand up to those "who are more interested in commerce and agriculture than they are in humanity." The point of the essay is to exhibit disobedience to government when that government is perpetrating injustice. Somehow halting the production of luxury cars for a few more weeks, with the explicit intent of trying to save lives, doesn't seem like an injustice to me.
    - ryankemper 6y ago
      > Somehow halting the production of luxury cars for a few more weeks, with the explicit intent of trying to save lives, doesn't seem like an injustice to me. Forgive the cliche, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. "Trying to save lives" is the new "think of the children". It's the same mentality that gives us legislation like the EARN IT act. -- The question we should ask is, (1) has the government provided a reasonable justification for placing such limits on commerce, freedom of movement, etc. And (2), is the strategy we're pursuing, from a public health perspective, the right one? My answer to both (1) and (2) is "hell no". The rules our government has ruled out are arbitrary and capricious and are largely based on superstition. Case in point: closures of public parks and beaches. Arguing (2) is out of the scope of this comment but suffice to say that my belief is the negative externalities introduced by our COVID-19 response are far, far worse than COVID-19 itself. -- FWIW, I am not a fan of Musk in general. I am inherently suspicious of people that are trying to save humanity. As we have seen with Musk - for example, how Tesla factory workers are treated in the pre-COVID-19 era - because he is working tirelessly to save humanity, he is willing to sacrifice actual humans to achieve his goals. Because after all, in the scheme of things, if you're talking about fighting existential threats like climate change or being stuck on one planet, what's the cost of even 100,000 human-lives' worth of wellbeing in comparison? It's not even close. But when it comes to COVID-19, I absolutely think Musk is right. Yes he has made some absolute asinine comments/predictions but his general points about suspension of civil liberties, and statements that COVID-19 is not nearly as lethal as we were told...all of that is totally true in my book.
taurath 6y ago
Civil disobedience for some gets policy changes, and others get blasted with firehoses.
throwaway_jobs 6y ago
> You must also take into account the history of intentional civil disobedience where the government has over reached and the population simply reaches the point where it refuses to comply. It is one thing for Musk to publicly proclaim he is willing to go to jail, but are all the rank and file workers? At what point does the civil disobedience become workers telling their employer they will not violate the law by returning to work and risk jail just to pump up the stock?
- mgolawala 6y ago
  Yeah, that is a good question. A worker can reasonably claim that they should not be asked to break the law as part of their job. I am curious to see how all this plays out. Having said that, I read somewhere that there are like 10,000 employees at Tesla's Fremont plant. Do we really think the County would actually follow through and arrest 10,000 people? Thank Goodness we do not live in such a society.. Perhaps they would arrest just the management, perhaps just Musk? Shut off the power instead? Ugh.
  - wolco 6y ago
    Anyone fired would have an easy case to win. If it came to that generous packages will be offered.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    Is such an order by a county executive even legitimate?
    - gagege 6y ago
      That so few are even asking this question in insane to me.
      - mirimir 6y ago
        I'm guessing that it needs to be tested in court. Or at least, that Musk has decided that it does.
ardy42 6y ago
> You must also take into account the history of intentional civil disobedience where the government has over reached and the population simply reaches the point where it refuses to comply. > Prohibition is obviously a prime example of this, but if you consider various laws that once existed or are currently on the books but no longer enforced (think laws pertaining to racial segregation, sexuality, drug use, and such) you realize that... The thing is: public safety laws aren't like racial segregation at all. If they are, I look forward to stuff like "civil disobedience" against child labor laws, etc. > ...being a law abiding citizen does not mean you are no longer allowed to think for yourself. That's true, but it also means being accountable and not acting without regards to others. Musk is acting like a petulant brat here, and I hope the Alameda County sheriff talks some sense into him.
- Balgair 6y ago
  Between the twitter rants, the poverty vow, the new child, the name of the new child, and now this, well.. All in the last 10 days or so too. The last few years have not been all that kind either. I mean, new fathers, even after the other six babies, still do pretty goofy things. However, it's more putting the milk in the pantry type stuff, or mixing up coffee grounds and water. Not daring public officials to arrest you during a pandemic and all but demanding employees to work during said pandemic. I feel for the guy, things are tough now. I hope he finds the peace that he seems to need.
  - thawaway1837 6y ago
    Trying to pass off CPAP machines as ventilators, promising that there will be no cases in middle April, and promoting conspiracy theories that the number of deaths have been inflated, when they are almost certainly understated. Yeah, Musk is definitely the guy I wanna be taking advice from in this crisis. And that’s before we even get to promising to send a submarine to save some trapped kids, and when the person who actually helped save them instead of the mythical submarine says it wouldn’t work calling him a paedophile.
    - wollstonecraft 6y ago
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thawaway1837 6y ago
Is Elon Musk gonna be working in the factory and traveling to and from it possibly using public transport, or even just a regular car, but having to pick up coffee from the drive thru on the way? It’s not civil disobedience if you’re getting a bunch of other people to do it on your behalf. Elon Musk is no Rosa Parks.
- Negitivefrags 6y ago
  According to Elon, he will be yes. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891
siscia 6y ago
Civil and social disobedience is done by activists, not by companies. This is just greed and putting profits before people. Less than one week ago we were all cheering for an high level engineer leaving Amazon against working condition in their center. And now we try to justify Tesla reopening a factory?
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  Hacker News is not one monolithic block of opinions, plenty of people here supported amazon heavily.
  - mcv 6y ago
    And plenty of people disagree with Elon Musk on this. That said, I see a lot more reports about poor working conditions at Amazon than Tesla, so it's entirely possible to criticise Amazon but agree with Tesla.
tibbydudeza 6y ago
Salient point but Mandela,Ghandi,Martin Luther King and their followers were not potential deadly virus carriers. Elon is just being a grandstanding idiot.
- iso947 6y ago
  Ghandi’s actions led to the withdrawal of Britain from India, which led to the separation of India which led to 2-3 million deaths, about 0.1% of the global population. Mandela killed about 100 people, the equivalent of infecting 10k people with covid.
mcv 6y ago
Civil disobedience is about people, not corporations. More specifically, it's generally about people fighting for justice and against bad laws. It's not something that should be used for corporations ignoring safety regulation.
lazyjones 6y ago
> You must also take into account the history of intentional civil disobedience where the government has over reached and the population simply reaches the point where it refuses to comply There's also the opposite example, of people showing more tolerance for arbitrary and authoritarian political decisions out of fear. It's very visible here in Europe right now and for the first time it seems like people didn't wise up since the 1930s at all, the mechanisms that convincingly explained how Nazi Germany and Austria could happen, still work. Give me irrational civil disobedience over this any time.

cmdli 6y ago

Civil disobedience typically involved still getting punished as a matter of protest to change public opinion. If Elon Musk is doing this as civil disobedience, he is using the resources of Tesla and the forced compliance of his workers in order to make a political statement. I don't really see that as better. Instead, it seems that Musk is doing this just because he thinks he can get away with it, or because he is simply angry with the elected officials of his county. In such a situation, Tesla and Elon Musk should rightfully be punished for their actions.

mgolawala 6y ago
Civil disobedience is typically, but not always, punished. We will have to see how this plays out. There is also the question of which branch of government gets to have a say in the enforcement of a law. Consider California's approach to marijuana use vs the Federal government's. Or consider how there are numerous sanctuary cities that are in defiance of Federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement. These things are complicated.
- deleted 6y ago
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- bcrosby95 6y ago
  It's not complicated because there is no conflicting guidance from the federal vs state governments. Once the federal government orders everyone to open up it will be unknown what the right answer is. States that want to continue with the lockdown will likely sue the federal government, or companies that want to open up would sue the state. The courts will weigh in and it will probably go "something something interstate commerce" and the federal government will win, forcing the states to open up. After that it really depends upon how states respond and you could be stuck in a giant game of chicken. This is where it might get complicated and risky - mostly for people trying to abide by the law. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But in this case, the government wont' really arrest you for not opening your car factory. But the state might arrest you for doing it. In the case of Marijuana, it's really quite simple: everyone in California using marijuana can be arrested by the federal government. They just choose not to, at least usually. ICE is a bit more complicated. They are trying to compel cooporation from local law enforcement, who is not responsible for enforcing immigration law. They aren't asking them to enforce it directly themselves though.
kelnos 6y ago
To be fair, Musk's tweet especially says if anyone is to be arrested for this, it should be him. > to make a political statement. I see it as more a business decision, and only secondarily a political statement.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  “Dear Officer, you cannot arrest me. Did you even check Twitter?”
- LanceH 6y ago
  He did say he no longer needed a house.
- atoav 6y ago
  Or terrorism, depending on the perspective.
  - lightgreen 6y ago
    It’s not terrorism by definition of terrorism regardless of perspective. Same as a person is not a nazi just because someone disagrees with them. Same as speech is not violence. Etc etc etc.
    - JabavuAdams 6y ago
      You started off strong, but overreached. If I say to my spouse or child "You fucking stupid cunt, I've told you a thousand times to put the dishes away! You good for nothing piece of shit, you can't even get that right!" That's violence. EDIT> Speech is an act. That act can be violence.
      - AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
        No, no that's not violence. Violence would be if you hit your child or spouse.
      - deleted 6y ago
LyndsySimon 6y ago
> the forced compliance of his workers Can you provide a source for this? I have no idea what (if any) compensation Tesla workers receive while not working during the pandemic, nor do I know if those workers will be penalized for not working - particularly for not working while the factory is open in violation of state restrictions.
- late2part 6y ago
  Firing someone if they don't do something is not forcing them. It shouldn't raise to duress in my opinion.
  - a9entroy 6y ago
    Firing someone because they didnt obey your order to break the law is not duress?
    - late2part 6y ago
      You’re begging the question that there is a law to break.
    - ryanlol 6y ago
      It’s not at all obvious that going to work in a factory that’s operating against a county order is breaking the law.
      - 0xFF0123 6y ago
        It's not at all obvious that it's not, either. At the very least, it's against the spirit of the order.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        The county order prohibits both businesses operating and individuals engaging in out-of-home activity except as explicitly permitted by the order, and violating a county public health order is a crime (misdemeanor) punishable by up jail. Automobile manufacturing is not one of the listed exceptions, so it is illegal both to operate (for the owner) and to go to work at (for the employees) such a business.
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Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Instead, it seems that Musk is doing this just because he thinks he can get away with it, or because he is simply angry with the elected officials of his county. In such a situation, Tesla and Elon Musk should rightfully be punished for their actions. Here is the thing about the Tesla culture, which is like a more subdued one then the one at SpaceX: some people are 'all in' about the cause and are putting their Lives at risk working 10+ hours everyday. One of the reasons I decided to go work for Kimbal instead of Tesla was the mandatory Swing shift for Supply Chain (at the time) ahead of the Model 3 ramp. People were putting in 60+ hours in 4 day schedules. Burn out is not possible, its near exepected. They also offer really amazing Health Packages, like the best any other Multi-national corp ever offered me because they understood it as critical component to success in such an ambitious goal. At Kimbal's place I could do 60+ hours over 6 days, which if you've done either is taxing, but the former wipes you out and messes up your circadian rhythm, which as you get older is harder to re-adjust on the fly. If you honestly think there aren't people waiting to just go back to work at the HQ factory to do what they joined up for int first place then you haven't met many Tesla people, let alone any SpaceX guys. Is this fair? I think if Elon/HR has stipulated there are no consequences for those who can't or won't return, then, yes. The Factory has only just been able to recently turn things around after an amazing Manufacturing feat from the Fremont Team, only to have this stifled by the Local government, who oddly benefit a great deal from the revenue generated from Fremont. If any of you have been to Fremont, you'll know there isn't much Economic activity there, even for the East Bay. Lots of local businesses, little restaurants and some fast food places rely heavily on Tesla employees. This is a lose-lose situation which may be due to political reasons, but if a fine is all the stands in the way of making the deliveries back-log get smaller, then its worth it. (Elon is saying he is willing to get arrested for it?) People have paid in full for a Model Y, which has been refined due to Model 3's hard-earned lessons, the losses and missed opportunity costs are immense. If they have to move production of Y to Shanghai and re-import them to the US then not only is that a supply chain nightmare, but it completely undoes the cost-savings that made Shanghai imperative in the first place. I don't blame him, this has also boosted the stock price above 800 again, too. So the Market agrees with his decision.
- podgaj 6y ago
  >some people are 'all in' about the cause and are putting their Lives at risk Jesus, the frickin Nazi Youth did the same thing! Why don't people ever see the leader worship and authoritarianism (fascism) in corporations?
Mountain_Skies 6y ago
>simply angry with the elected officials of his county Erica Pan received zero votes for her because she has never appeared on the ballot. She's an appointed not an elected official. This is her choice and the public has no possibility of direct electoral response to her decision to forbid Tesla opening.
growlist 6y ago
When it comes to a choice between Musk's judgement versus elected officials, I'd suggest the former has a superior track record to the latter. Not to mention, any punishment will blow straight back at them when Musk then moves the Tesla factory. It's quite amusing really.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  Even if Musk is right and the county officials are wrong, he still has to follow the law. If he thinks he can get away with breaking the law because he can threaten to move his business, I would support jail time for him. The attitude that having money puts one above the law is not something that should be tolerated.
  - jyrkesh 6y ago
    Do you support throwing non-violent drug offenders in prison too? Or are you in only in favor of jailing rich people who might actually have enough leverage to prove in court that the law is unjust (or better yet, completely unconstitutional)?
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      I support jailing executives who willfully violate the law, especially if they think that they can get away with it by threatening to move their business elsewhere. We can't live in a society in which money buys you the right to violate the law. You can believe that the county's rules are unwise, but they're in place in order to protect public health. Right or wrong, Musk is violating those rules and thinks he'll get away with it because he runs an important company. There has to be a clear message that he won't get away with it. Fining him won't make a difference. Prison time might.
  - growlist 6y ago
    A public official tweeting 'F*ck Elon Musk' is hardly responsible behaviour either.
nswest23 6y ago
civil disobedience may typically involve punishment but it shouldn't be a requirement.

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago

There's definitely a great evil to laws which are either selectively or rarely enforced. Eventually they turn cancerous and are abused. For example, look at the Logan Act and its justification for spying on politicians.

erichocean 6y ago
The Logan Act has literally never resulted in a prosecution. Got one indictment though, in the 19th century.
- hirundo 6y ago
  The Logan Act was used to pressure Michael Flynn into pleading guilty. That wasn't a first. It can be an effective threat without actually prosecuting anyone for it. That's more than a sufficient reason to repeal this blatantly unconstitutional law.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  So if it’s never used, why is it on the books? There’s plenty of evidence that laws are abused so the government can get what they want.

joe_the_user 6y ago

I only support civil disobedience for "human rights issues". That is the only thing really merits the term. Things appearing as civil disobedience for money issue are virtually always terrible - as soon as "radicalism" or "iconoclastism" becomes a business, it's worst business. Prohibition was a terrible policy but the people that fueled the defiance of prohibition were mobsters, scum that had a terrible and arguably on-going terrible effect on the country. Even 1960s drug proponents became awful at the point they became drug dealers.

deathgrips 6y ago
The ability to earn a living is a human right that no government can deprive you of without a good, specific reason and due process.
- threeseed 6y ago
  It is not a human right to earn a living. And it is absolutely the right of a government to prevent you from working. Many jobs requiring government approval for example a doctor, lawyer, builder.
  - tathougies 6y ago
    Governments do not have rights, period. They exist solely at the consent and continued pleasure of the governed (or should at least). That is to say, every human has rights, because they are an individual human. The rights of people are self-evident and stem solely from the fact that people are human. Governments have no rights. There is nothing that is owed to them due to their existence as governments. Were a particular set of people not to form a government, no other government could rightfully enter to assert their 'right' to govern.
    - vadym909 6y ago
      I'd love to hear black or brown people adopt this as their motto.

jonstewart 6y ago

Oh yes, billionaires and corporations figured highly in Thoreau’s _Civil Disobedience_. From Walden Pond to Elon, it’s a straight line of coherent thought.

ryankemper 6y ago
I really think that the word "billionaire" needs to stop being used as a bad word. Billionaires are citizens too. They are bound (imperfectly) by laws. Therefore they too encounter situations where practicing civil disobedience makes sense.
- j2kun 6y ago
  I recall the quote from Thoreau, saying we must also stand up to those "who are more interested in commerce and agriculture than they are in humanity." The point of the essay is to exhibit disobedience to government when that government is perpetrating injustice. Somehow halting the production of luxury cars for a few more weeks, with the explicit intent of trying to save lives, doesn't seem like an injustice to me.
  - ryankemper 6y ago
    > Somehow halting the production of luxury cars for a few more weeks, with the explicit intent of trying to save lives, doesn't seem like an injustice to me. Forgive the cliche, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. "Trying to save lives" is the new "think of the children". It's the same mentality that gives us legislation like the EARN IT act. -- The question we should ask is, (1) has the government provided a reasonable justification for placing such limits on commerce, freedom of movement, etc. And (2), is the strategy we're pursuing, from a public health perspective, the right one? My answer to both (1) and (2) is "hell no". The rules our government has ruled out are arbitrary and capricious and are largely based on superstition. Case in point: closures of public parks and beaches. Arguing (2) is out of the scope of this comment but suffice to say that my belief is the negative externalities introduced by our COVID-19 response are far, far worse than COVID-19 itself. -- FWIW, I am not a fan of Musk in general. I am inherently suspicious of people that are trying to save humanity. As we have seen with Musk - for example, how Tesla factory workers are treated in the pre-COVID-19 era - because he is working tirelessly to save humanity, he is willing to sacrifice actual humans to achieve his goals. Because after all, in the scheme of things, if you're talking about fighting existential threats like climate change or being stuck on one planet, what's the cost of even 100,000 human-lives' worth of wellbeing in comparison? It's not even close. But when it comes to COVID-19, I absolutely think Musk is right. Yes he has made some absolute asinine comments/predictions but his general points about suspension of civil liberties, and statements that COVID-19 is not nearly as lethal as we were told...all of that is totally true in my book.

taurath 6y ago

Civil disobedience for some gets policy changes, and others get blasted with firehoses.

throwaway_jobs 6y ago

> You must also take into account the history of intentional civil disobedience where the government has over reached and the population simply reaches the point where it refuses to comply. It is one thing for Musk to publicly proclaim he is willing to go to jail, but are all the rank and file workers? At what point does the civil disobedience become workers telling their employer they will not violate the law by returning to work and risk jail just to pump up the stock?

mgolawala 6y ago
Yeah, that is a good question. A worker can reasonably claim that they should not be asked to break the law as part of their job. I am curious to see how all this plays out. Having said that, I read somewhere that there are like 10,000 employees at Tesla's Fremont plant. Do we really think the County would actually follow through and arrest 10,000 people? Thank Goodness we do not live in such a society.. Perhaps they would arrest just the management, perhaps just Musk? Shut off the power instead? Ugh.
- wolco 6y ago
  Anyone fired would have an easy case to win. If it came to that generous packages will be offered.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  Is such an order by a county executive even legitimate?
  - gagege 6y ago
    That so few are even asking this question in insane to me.
    - mirimir 6y ago
      I'm guessing that it needs to be tested in court. Or at least, that Musk has decided that it does.

ardy42 6y ago

> You must also take into account the history of intentional civil disobedience where the government has over reached and the population simply reaches the point where it refuses to comply. > Prohibition is obviously a prime example of this, but if you consider various laws that once existed or are currently on the books but no longer enforced (think laws pertaining to racial segregation, sexuality, drug use, and such) you realize that... The thing is: public safety laws aren't like racial segregation at all. If they are, I look forward to stuff like "civil disobedience" against child labor laws, etc. > ...being a law abiding citizen does not mean you are no longer allowed to think for yourself. That's true, but it also means being accountable and not acting without regards to others. Musk is acting like a petulant brat here, and I hope the Alameda County sheriff talks some sense into him.

Balgair 6y ago
Between the twitter rants, the poverty vow, the new child, the name of the new child, and now this, well.. All in the last 10 days or so too. The last few years have not been all that kind either. I mean, new fathers, even after the other six babies, still do pretty goofy things. However, it's more putting the milk in the pantry type stuff, or mixing up coffee grounds and water. Not daring public officials to arrest you during a pandemic and all but demanding employees to work during said pandemic. I feel for the guy, things are tough now. I hope he finds the peace that he seems to need.
- thawaway1837 6y ago
  Trying to pass off CPAP machines as ventilators, promising that there will be no cases in middle April, and promoting conspiracy theories that the number of deaths have been inflated, when they are almost certainly understated. Yeah, Musk is definitely the guy I wanna be taking advice from in this crisis. And that’s before we even get to promising to send a submarine to save some trapped kids, and when the person who actually helped save them instead of the mythical submarine says it wouldn’t work calling him a paedophile.
  - wollstonecraft 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

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thawaway1837 6y ago

Is Elon Musk gonna be working in the factory and traveling to and from it possibly using public transport, or even just a regular car, but having to pick up coffee from the drive thru on the way? It’s not civil disobedience if you’re getting a bunch of other people to do it on your behalf. Elon Musk is no Rosa Parks.

Negitivefrags 6y ago
According to Elon, he will be yes. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891

siscia 6y ago

Civil and social disobedience is done by activists, not by companies. This is just greed and putting profits before people. Less than one week ago we were all cheering for an high level engineer leaving Amazon against working condition in their center. And now we try to justify Tesla reopening a factory?

throwaway2048 6y ago
Hacker News is not one monolithic block of opinions, plenty of people here supported amazon heavily.
- mcv 6y ago
  And plenty of people disagree with Elon Musk on this. That said, I see a lot more reports about poor working conditions at Amazon than Tesla, so it's entirely possible to criticise Amazon but agree with Tesla.

tibbydudeza 6y ago

Salient point but Mandela,Ghandi,Martin Luther King and their followers were not potential deadly virus carriers. Elon is just being a grandstanding idiot.

iso947 6y ago
Ghandi’s actions led to the withdrawal of Britain from India, which led to the separation of India which led to 2-3 million deaths, about 0.1% of the global population. Mandela killed about 100 people, the equivalent of infecting 10k people with covid.

mcv 6y ago

Civil disobedience is about people, not corporations. More specifically, it's generally about people fighting for justice and against bad laws. It's not something that should be used for corporations ignoring safety regulation.

lazyjones 6y ago

> You must also take into account the history of intentional civil disobedience where the government has over reached and the population simply reaches the point where it refuses to comply There's also the opposite example, of people showing more tolerance for arbitrary and authoritarian political decisions out of fear. It's very visible here in Europe right now and for the first time it seems like people didn't wise up since the 1930s at all, the mechanisms that convincingly explained how Nazi Germany and Austria could happen, still work. Give me irrational civil disobedience over this any time.