6 ms·

Just curious if there are folks in countries outside of the US or maybe even little Internet backwaters within the US that observe a public discourse that is ev

by jcims 7y ago

Just curious if there are folks in countries outside of the US or maybe even little Internet backwaters within the US that observe a public discourse that is even slightly more nuanced than the shrieking ideological standoff we seem to have here in the states? For example, people publicly admitting that policy makers have difficult decisions in front of them, that both the health impact AND economic impact are crucial to consider, and maybe even collaborative, if lay, efforts to create a framework for resuming normalcy?

mrfusion 7y ago
Just health. Who cares about the rich people and the stock market.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  Rich people will be fine. Economic downturns primarily hurt the poor and middle classes. "The economy" isn't some abstract thing that produces random stock market numbers. It's everyone's livelihood.
- jcims 7y ago
  Schadenfreude for billionaires definitely seems to be driving some of the vitriol.
- endogui 7y ago
  Health and food supply are both parts of the economy, unless you trust the Feds to set up rationing. Which is not to defend the managers who are pushing for things to open when they don't have front-line exposure.
SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
Is there some other country where nobody's loud and passionate about the worst global crisis since World War II? I doubt it.
- throwaway17_17 7y ago
  Are you claiming that Covid-19 is the worst global crisis since WWII? I find that claim to be unsupportable. I will of course agree that this pandemic is effecting nearly the entire globe, but the worldwide death figure for Covid-19 is between 285K and 290K. For reference (and I acknowledge it did not effect the global population) the Khmer Rouge was responsible for somewhere between 1.5 and 2 Million deaths between 1976 and 1979. Covid-19 is a viable pandemic with far reaching effects, but to compare it to some of the atrocities seen on this planet post-1945 is a bit premature and alarmist.
  - alexilliamson 7y ago
    300k over 3 months = 4-5 million dead over a 4 year window, if you want to do the proper comparison.
    - throwaway17_17 7y ago
      I was not disagreeing with the premise that the impact of Covid-19 could be significant. I would disagree in plotting a novel virus’s rate of death would remain completely static from first appearance for a period of four years, but it could. I was more taking issue with calling the current state of the world regarding the pandemic they worst global catastrophe since WWII. I felt like parent was trivializing multiple significantly horrible events and then using it to make a point about how people are not acting in a manner they view as appropriate.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    Take the world population of 7.8 billion. Assume 80% get sick and 1% die and 2% suffer ruined health. You have 62.4 million deaths and 125 million people with bad health. Thing that is most disturbing here is peoples desire for normalcy overrides their ability to do simple arithmetic.
mr_toad 7y ago
As an outsider, the weirdest thing to me is that different counties can have their own rules. That different states might have their own rules is understandable, kind-of, but at the county level? It seems like a very haphazard approach to an emergency.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  Musk's legal argument is just that: that Alameda County has no authority to override California state rules.
  - AlexandrB 7y ago
    Except it does, according to the governor of California. > California Governor Gavin Newsom said Thursday that state-level guidance allowing manufacturing to resume some production didn’t supersede county-level restrictions. The company had unsucessfully tried to argue that Tesla’s production should be considered critical infrastructure.[1] Musk is talking out his ass and undermining public safety. If this is also how he approaches product design I don't think I ever want to get into a Tesla again. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/9/21253127/elon-musk-lawsuit-alameda-coronavirus-tesla-fremont-lockdown https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/9/21253127/elon-musk-lawsuit...
    - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
      I'd wait until the court decides to say who is talking out of whose ass, Gavin Newsom is known for just that. Gavin Newsom really is Gavin Belson...
- grecy 7y ago
  I think it really speaks to what we've built with our "modern democracies" all over the world - layer upon layer of bureaucracy, and the same decisions can be made or un-made at every level. A friend just got a job at a local city council working on their climate change action plan. There are ~20 people working on it, all making ~$80k a year. The city has 30k residents. Every single city of this size or larger in the entire country is going to duplicate this effort, and pay these salaries, and maybe even come up with different solutions to the same problem. City A will ban the use of some chemical, and a handful of miles away a different city with different rules will rejoice in the use of the same chemical. It all feels awfully redundant to me.
g_airborne 7y ago
I think so. In the Netherlands at least the discussion seems more nuanced. I’m not sure exactly why because the problems are exactly the same. I suspect there’s a few things at play. 1. The governments communication here is less extreme, and generally more reasonable. A few weeks ago a Dutch restaurant holder announced that he was going to open his restaurants regardless of the lockdown because otherwise he wouldn’t be able to handle it financially. This sparked a lot of debate and at some point, during a press conference, the PM was asked about it. He replied by saying he completely understood what the restaurant holder felt and saw it as a cry for help. He promised he would do anything to help restaurants survive. He wasn’t mad at the restaurant holder, instead, he showed seemingly sincere compassion. It defused the situation. 2. The Dutch government has said many times that everything they do is almost 100% based on their scientific advisory panel. They recently added some economic and behavioral experts to that panel to balance it out and we are slowly moving out of lockdown. Note that the approval rating of the Dutch PM has absolutely skyrocketed during the past couple of months and this makes it much easier to bring the bad news :) 3. There’s this Dutch tradition of late night shows that a lot of people watch. They all have basically the same format and the guests (during the past months) were mostly government people, virologists, doctors, economic experts etc. These shows are interesting in that it's just a few hours of talking, but they have millions of daily viewers. It creates sort of a common reference frame for the discussion to move forward. That restaurant holder for example was a guest that night, and asked to explain why he wanted to open up. 30 minutes of listening to a much more nuanced picture of how this has been for him, his staff and others in the food branch helps understand his motives. Also, because the same table hosts a government representative, a virologist and an ICU doctor you bet the guy had to walk back his earlier statement (at least partially) as it was carefully explained to him how opening up to soon might just make things worse. His position shifted from "I'll open up regardless" to "I'm asking the government for more relief money so we can survive this." I probably oversimplified some stuff, and I'm not sure about these observations at all. There's a lot more at play most likely, anyway, this should give you some insight in how things are going elsewhere.
- jcims 7y ago
  I've got extended family in the Netherlands. They comprise an interesting spectrum from incredibly sweet to extreme asshole but I will say rationality reigns supreme across the board. This is very interesting info and in retrospect also not surprising. Thanks!!! (Also are any of the shows you describe in #3 in English? Would love to check them out)
finnthehuman 7y ago
>that is even slightly more nuanced than the shrieking ideological standoff The only place I've ever been where a decent in-person political discussion was hard to find was the norcal tech bubble (not to bag on the left, I've just never spent time in any stereotypical right-wing stronghold). There trick is understanding that most people use politics as either: a way to provoke a reaction out of the person they're talking to, and/or use politics as a proxy reason to hate others when the real reason is one that they can't admit outloud or even to themselves (e.g. class, subculture, race, sex (there's more, but those are the big ones)).

by jcims 7y ago

mrfusion 7y ago

Just health. Who cares about the rich people and the stock market.

umanwizard 7y ago
Rich people will be fine. Economic downturns primarily hurt the poor and middle classes. "The economy" isn't some abstract thing that produces random stock market numbers. It's everyone's livelihood.
jcims 7y ago
Schadenfreude for billionaires definitely seems to be driving some of the vitriol.
endogui 7y ago
Health and food supply are both parts of the economy, unless you trust the Feds to set up rationing. Which is not to defend the managers who are pushing for things to open when they don't have front-line exposure.

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

Is there some other country where nobody's loud and passionate about the worst global crisis since World War II? I doubt it.

throwaway17_17 7y ago
Are you claiming that Covid-19 is the worst global crisis since WWII? I find that claim to be unsupportable. I will of course agree that this pandemic is effecting nearly the entire globe, but the worldwide death figure for Covid-19 is between 285K and 290K. For reference (and I acknowledge it did not effect the global population) the Khmer Rouge was responsible for somewhere between 1.5 and 2 Million deaths between 1976 and 1979. Covid-19 is a viable pandemic with far reaching effects, but to compare it to some of the atrocities seen on this planet post-1945 is a bit premature and alarmist.
- alexilliamson 7y ago
  300k over 3 months = 4-5 million dead over a 4 year window, if you want to do the proper comparison.
  - throwaway17_17 7y ago
    I was not disagreeing with the premise that the impact of Covid-19 could be significant. I would disagree in plotting a novel virus’s rate of death would remain completely static from first appearance for a period of four years, but it could. I was more taking issue with calling the current state of the world regarding the pandemic they worst global catastrophe since WWII. I felt like parent was trivializing multiple significantly horrible events and then using it to make a point about how people are not acting in a manner they view as appropriate.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  Take the world population of 7.8 billion. Assume 80% get sick and 1% die and 2% suffer ruined health. You have 62.4 million deaths and 125 million people with bad health. Thing that is most disturbing here is peoples desire for normalcy overrides their ability to do simple arithmetic.

mr_toad 7y ago

As an outsider, the weirdest thing to me is that different counties can have their own rules. That different states might have their own rules is understandable, kind-of, but at the county level? It seems like a very haphazard approach to an emergency.

umanwizard 7y ago
Musk's legal argument is just that: that Alameda County has no authority to override California state rules.
- AlexandrB 7y ago
  Except it does, according to the governor of California. > California Governor Gavin Newsom said Thursday that state-level guidance allowing manufacturing to resume some production didn’t supersede county-level restrictions. The company had unsucessfully tried to argue that Tesla’s production should be considered critical infrastructure.[1] Musk is talking out his ass and undermining public safety. If this is also how he approaches product design I don't think I ever want to get into a Tesla again. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/9/21253127/elon-musk-lawsuit-alameda-coronavirus-tesla-fremont-lockdown https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/9/21253127/elon-musk-lawsuit...
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    I'd wait until the court decides to say who is talking out of whose ass, Gavin Newsom is known for just that. Gavin Newsom really is Gavin Belson...
grecy 7y ago
I think it really speaks to what we've built with our "modern democracies" all over the world - layer upon layer of bureaucracy, and the same decisions can be made or un-made at every level. A friend just got a job at a local city council working on their climate change action plan. There are ~20 people working on it, all making ~$80k a year. The city has 30k residents. Every single city of this size or larger in the entire country is going to duplicate this effort, and pay these salaries, and maybe even come up with different solutions to the same problem. City A will ban the use of some chemical, and a handful of miles away a different city with different rules will rejoice in the use of the same chemical. It all feels awfully redundant to me.

g_airborne 7y ago

I think so. In the Netherlands at least the discussion seems more nuanced. I’m not sure exactly why because the problems are exactly the same. I suspect there’s a few things at play. 1. The governments communication here is less extreme, and generally more reasonable. A few weeks ago a Dutch restaurant holder announced that he was going to open his restaurants regardless of the lockdown because otherwise he wouldn’t be able to handle it financially. This sparked a lot of debate and at some point, during a press conference, the PM was asked about it. He replied by saying he completely understood what the restaurant holder felt and saw it as a cry for help. He promised he would do anything to help restaurants survive. He wasn’t mad at the restaurant holder, instead, he showed seemingly sincere compassion. It defused the situation. 2. The Dutch government has said many times that everything they do is almost 100% based on their scientific advisory panel. They recently added some economic and behavioral experts to that panel to balance it out and we are slowly moving out of lockdown. Note that the approval rating of the Dutch PM has absolutely skyrocketed during the past couple of months and this makes it much easier to bring the bad news :) 3. There’s this Dutch tradition of late night shows that a lot of people watch. They all have basically the same format and the guests (during the past months) were mostly government people, virologists, doctors, economic experts etc. These shows are interesting in that it's just a few hours of talking, but they have millions of daily viewers. It creates sort of a common reference frame for the discussion to move forward. That restaurant holder for example was a guest that night, and asked to explain why he wanted to open up. 30 minutes of listening to a much more nuanced picture of how this has been for him, his staff and others in the food branch helps understand his motives. Also, because the same table hosts a government representative, a virologist and an ICU doctor you bet the guy had to walk back his earlier statement (at least partially) as it was carefully explained to him how opening up to soon might just make things worse. His position shifted from "I'll open up regardless" to "I'm asking the government for more relief money so we can survive this." I probably oversimplified some stuff, and I'm not sure about these observations at all. There's a lot more at play most likely, anyway, this should give you some insight in how things are going elsewhere.

jcims 7y ago
I've got extended family in the Netherlands. They comprise an interesting spectrum from incredibly sweet to extreme asshole but I will say rationality reigns supreme across the board. This is very interesting info and in retrospect also not surprising. Thanks!!! (Also are any of the shows you describe in #3 in English? Would love to check them out)

finnthehuman 7y ago

>that is even slightly more nuanced than the shrieking ideological standoff The only place I've ever been where a decent in-person political discussion was hard to find was the norcal tech bubble (not to bag on the left, I've just never spent time in any stereotypical right-wing stronghold). There trick is understanding that most people use politics as either: a way to provoke a reaction out of the person they're talking to, and/or use politics as a proxy reason to hate others when the real reason is one that they can't admit outloud or even to themselves (e.g. class, subculture, race, sex (there's more, but those are the big ones)).