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Damn https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 > Tesla is restarting production today aga

by kanox 6y ago

Damn https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 > Tesla is restarting production today against Alameda County rules. I will be on the line with everyone else. If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me.

quotemstr 6y ago
That's real leadership.
- teachrdan 6y ago
  If you mean that this demonstrates good leadership, I ask you, how? Elon Musk is violating rules intended to keep people safe. And he's doing so to keep a business running that benefits him more than any of his employees. (You could make a different argument if this were a worker-owned cooperative.) Is it good leadership because he's asking that only he be arrested? I don't think anyone on HN believes Elon will actually go to jail. Good leadership because he's (saying that he is) on the line? Elon cosplaying as an assembly line worker for a day doesn't make him a good leader. A good leader would be doing their best to keep their employees safe. Putting thousands of people at risk in order to qualify for another round of stock incentive is not good leadership, no more what theatrics he's publicizing on Twitter. https://electrek.co/2020/05/05/elon-musk-tesla-700-million-payday/ https://electrek.co/2020/05/05/elon-musk-tesla-700-million-p...
  - quotemstr 6y ago
    > Elon Musk is violating rules intended to keep people safe. Blindly going along with rules just because they're intended to keep people safe whether or not they actually a benefit overall isn't exactly a strong indicator of independent thinking. Musk is demonstrating real leadership here because he's putting not only his company, but also his personal freedom on the line. He's putting a huge amount of skin in the game and asking to share the fate of the people he's asked to help him. That takes guts --- far more guts than you see among the mewling leadership of most big tech companies. You may not agree with what Musk is doing, but he's being direct, sincere, and bold, and yes, that's real leadership, and it's missing in most places.
    - dmode 6y ago
      So Elon should pick and choose what laws he wants to follow ?
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I mean, nobody thinks he'll go to jail because nobody thinks Alameda County really believes what they're saying. If they really believed it - that factories aren't safe to operate right now, and Elon's greedily trying to open up before it becomes safe in a few weeks - they'd cart him off and issue a press release about how proud they were to do it.
  - syshum 6y ago
    >> violating rules intended to keep people safe. Ahh the old "greater good", most violations of human rights begin with a speech about the greater good... >Putting thousands of people at risk in order to qualify Quantify and prove that risk, and prove that Tesla's mitigation are not effective. Do so with out using Appeals to Authority, or making a claim that "well the government says" We are (or are suppose to be) a free society, not serf's of the government
    - teachrdan 6y ago
      > We are (or are suppose to be) a free society, not serf's of the government The analogy fails because serfs couldn't vote for their king. We have a democracy here, albeit an imperfect one. So far California has a low COVID death rate, especially for a state that was hit early with outbreaks in its two biggest metropolitan areas: LA and the South Bay. It's almost certain that our early shelter in place orders (from our elected government) has saved hundreds of lives. The reality is that, for many Americans, our boss exercises more power over our lives than our government. Billionaire CEOs like Elon Musk threaten our health and livelihoods by pressuring workers to come back to unsafe work environments early. Elon spending a day taking selfies on the assembly line notwithstanding. > Quantify and prove that risk, and prove that Tesla's mitigation are not effective. The burden of proof is not on me to to show that an auto assembly plant is safe for workers during an epidemic. The burden of proof is on the owner of the plant. The US has a long history of sweatshop, factory and mine owners coercing employees to work in dangerous conditions. Elon telling his employees to expose themselves to COVID to keep his plant running on time is keeping in that shameful tradition. https://www.google.com/search?ei=vM-5XtjsIJLM-gTIm6CIDw&q=ca+death+rate+covid&oq=ca+death+rate+covid&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoCCAA6BggAEBYQHlD6BFi6CmCqC2gAcAB4AIAB4AGIAdEJkgEFMC4zLjOYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjYurqQ7KzpAhUSpp4KHcgNCPEQ4dUDCAw&uact=5 https://www.google.com/search?ei=vM-5XtjsIJLM-gTIm6CIDw&q=ca...
      - syshum 6y ago
        >>The analogy fails because serfs couldn't vote for their king. We have a democracy here, albeit an imperfect one. Ahh so we have traded serfdom to the king, for serfdom to the majority.. I thought the idea was for individual rights, and those rights were to be security from the mob mentality of the majority. we have a Constitutional REPUBLIC for a reason..., and one of those reasons is to prohibit the government from doing some things even if the will of the majority demands it >>It's almost certain that our early shelter in place orders (from our elected government) has saved hundreds of lives. There are a many of reasons why CA may be doing better than NYC, down to the type of housing, type of public transport, the weather, and 100's of other factors unrelated to the lockdown. It is far far far from certain that the locked played the key role.it is very dangerous to just cede that fact to them with out debate or analysis of data >>The reality is that, for many Americans, our boss exercises more power over our lives than our government. only if you allow it. a Boss does not have the power to put you in a cage, or even kill you for disobeying, the most they can do it cause temporary economic harm, the fact that you discount that difference or even elevate the denial of a paycheck over that of the monopoly of violence is crazy to me. No your boss does not have more power over your life than the government, No where near it. >>The burden of proof is on the owner of the plant. I believe they have done that, and the workers can choose to come back or not. We have have choices in life, unlike mandates by government which are backed by men with guns who will kill you if you defy them, Elon has no power to force anyone back into that factory, they can all choose to stay home. Further to compare today's employment with the past of coal mines, and sweatshops either shows your ignorance of those times, or is purposefully disingenuous, Coal mines of those days for example paid their employees in Company Script, and they lived in company housing, there is no comparison to that and today's economic reality and doing so just makes you look foolish and/or ignorant
  - dntbnmpls 6y ago
    > Elon Musk is violating rules intended to keep people safe. "Keep people safe". That's the mantra for every tyrannical nanny state. We are doing this for your own good. It's why in china you can't watch youtube, it's why weed was illegal, it's why people demand certain books be banned from libraries, it's the reason for government privacy violations, etc. It's all to keep you safe. It's amazing the number of pro-authoritarion justifications here. You would think it would be the exact opposite. > A good leader would be doing their best to keep their employees safe. Keep employees safe while working and getting paid. Working and getting paid is a very important part of employment. Also, there is risk in all employment. > Putting thousands of people at risk in order to qualify for another round of stock incentive is not good leadership, no more what theatrics he's publicizing on Twitter. The idea that you care more about musk's employees than he does is absurd. After all he needs those employees to "qualify for another round of stock incentive". The virtue signaling over covid is very strange because it's pro-authoritarian and people are parroting the same talking points. Sure musk wants to reopen his plant for selfish reasons, but everyone here attacking him are also acting out of selfish reasons - to keep the economy weak. I wonder if this is an election year?
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I'm not sure how I feel about having it come from the rich and powerful, but I have to grudgingly admit that this is a true attempt at civil disobedience. If the health concerns are as severe as Alameda County says, they can and should arrest him.
- tenpies 6y ago
  It's not civil disobedience. It's "Tesla has such a liquidity problem that if we wait another week it'll go bankrupt and my net worth will be negative". Also note that he's opening at 100% (not 30% staff) and seems to have taken zero measures "learned from Shanghai". I'm guessing when his plane arrives he'll bring in a couple of masks for the photo ops.

by kanox 6y ago

quotemstr 6y ago

That's real leadership.

teachrdan 6y ago
If you mean that this demonstrates good leadership, I ask you, how? Elon Musk is violating rules intended to keep people safe. And he's doing so to keep a business running that benefits him more than any of his employees. (You could make a different argument if this were a worker-owned cooperative.) Is it good leadership because he's asking that only he be arrested? I don't think anyone on HN believes Elon will actually go to jail. Good leadership because he's (saying that he is) on the line? Elon cosplaying as an assembly line worker for a day doesn't make him a good leader. A good leader would be doing their best to keep their employees safe. Putting thousands of people at risk in order to qualify for another round of stock incentive is not good leadership, no more what theatrics he's publicizing on Twitter. https://electrek.co/2020/05/05/elon-musk-tesla-700-million-payday/ https://electrek.co/2020/05/05/elon-musk-tesla-700-million-p...
- quotemstr 6y ago
  > Elon Musk is violating rules intended to keep people safe. Blindly going along with rules just because they're intended to keep people safe whether or not they actually a benefit overall isn't exactly a strong indicator of independent thinking. Musk is demonstrating real leadership here because he's putting not only his company, but also his personal freedom on the line. He's putting a huge amount of skin in the game and asking to share the fate of the people he's asked to help him. That takes guts --- far more guts than you see among the mewling leadership of most big tech companies. You may not agree with what Musk is doing, but he's being direct, sincere, and bold, and yes, that's real leadership, and it's missing in most places.
  - dmode 6y ago
    So Elon should pick and choose what laws he wants to follow ?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I mean, nobody thinks he'll go to jail because nobody thinks Alameda County really believes what they're saying. If they really believed it - that factories aren't safe to operate right now, and Elon's greedily trying to open up before it becomes safe in a few weeks - they'd cart him off and issue a press release about how proud they were to do it.
- syshum 6y ago
  >> violating rules intended to keep people safe. Ahh the old "greater good", most violations of human rights begin with a speech about the greater good... >Putting thousands of people at risk in order to qualify Quantify and prove that risk, and prove that Tesla's mitigation are not effective. Do so with out using Appeals to Authority, or making a claim that "well the government says" We are (or are suppose to be) a free society, not serf's of the government
  - teachrdan 6y ago
    > We are (or are suppose to be) a free society, not serf's of the government The analogy fails because serfs couldn't vote for their king. We have a democracy here, albeit an imperfect one. So far California has a low COVID death rate, especially for a state that was hit early with outbreaks in its two biggest metropolitan areas: LA and the South Bay. It's almost certain that our early shelter in place orders (from our elected government) has saved hundreds of lives. The reality is that, for many Americans, our boss exercises more power over our lives than our government. Billionaire CEOs like Elon Musk threaten our health and livelihoods by pressuring workers to come back to unsafe work environments early. Elon spending a day taking selfies on the assembly line notwithstanding. > Quantify and prove that risk, and prove that Tesla's mitigation are not effective. The burden of proof is not on me to to show that an auto assembly plant is safe for workers during an epidemic. The burden of proof is on the owner of the plant. The US has a long history of sweatshop, factory and mine owners coercing employees to work in dangerous conditions. Elon telling his employees to expose themselves to COVID to keep his plant running on time is keeping in that shameful tradition. https://www.google.com/search?ei=vM-5XtjsIJLM-gTIm6CIDw&q=ca+death+rate+covid&oq=ca+death+rate+covid&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoCCAA6BggAEBYQHlD6BFi6CmCqC2gAcAB4AIAB4AGIAdEJkgEFMC4zLjOYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjYurqQ7KzpAhUSpp4KHcgNCPEQ4dUDCAw&uact=5 https://www.google.com/search?ei=vM-5XtjsIJLM-gTIm6CIDw&q=ca...
    - syshum 6y ago
      >>The analogy fails because serfs couldn't vote for their king. We have a democracy here, albeit an imperfect one. Ahh so we have traded serfdom to the king, for serfdom to the majority.. I thought the idea was for individual rights, and those rights were to be security from the mob mentality of the majority. we have a Constitutional REPUBLIC for a reason..., and one of those reasons is to prohibit the government from doing some things even if the will of the majority demands it >>It's almost certain that our early shelter in place orders (from our elected government) has saved hundreds of lives. There are a many of reasons why CA may be doing better than NYC, down to the type of housing, type of public transport, the weather, and 100's of other factors unrelated to the lockdown. It is far far far from certain that the locked played the key role.it is very dangerous to just cede that fact to them with out debate or analysis of data >>The reality is that, for many Americans, our boss exercises more power over our lives than our government. only if you allow it. a Boss does not have the power to put you in a cage, or even kill you for disobeying, the most they can do it cause temporary economic harm, the fact that you discount that difference or even elevate the denial of a paycheck over that of the monopoly of violence is crazy to me. No your boss does not have more power over your life than the government, No where near it. >>The burden of proof is on the owner of the plant. I believe they have done that, and the workers can choose to come back or not. We have have choices in life, unlike mandates by government which are backed by men with guns who will kill you if you defy them, Elon has no power to force anyone back into that factory, they can all choose to stay home. Further to compare today's employment with the past of coal mines, and sweatshops either shows your ignorance of those times, or is purposefully disingenuous, Coal mines of those days for example paid their employees in Company Script, and they lived in company housing, there is no comparison to that and today's economic reality and doing so just makes you look foolish and/or ignorant
- dntbnmpls 6y ago
  > Elon Musk is violating rules intended to keep people safe. "Keep people safe". That's the mantra for every tyrannical nanny state. We are doing this for your own good. It's why in china you can't watch youtube, it's why weed was illegal, it's why people demand certain books be banned from libraries, it's the reason for government privacy violations, etc. It's all to keep you safe. It's amazing the number of pro-authoritarion justifications here. You would think it would be the exact opposite. > A good leader would be doing their best to keep their employees safe. Keep employees safe while working and getting paid. Working and getting paid is a very important part of employment. Also, there is risk in all employment. > Putting thousands of people at risk in order to qualify for another round of stock incentive is not good leadership, no more what theatrics he's publicizing on Twitter. The idea that you care more about musk's employees than he does is absurd. After all he needs those employees to "qualify for another round of stock incentive". The virtue signaling over covid is very strange because it's pro-authoritarian and people are parroting the same talking points. Sure musk wants to reopen his plant for selfish reasons, but everyone here attacking him are also acting out of selfish reasons - to keep the economy weak. I wonder if this is an election year?

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

I'm not sure how I feel about having it come from the rich and powerful, but I have to grudgingly admit that this is a true attempt at civil disobedience. If the health concerns are as severe as Alameda County says, they can and should arrest him.

tenpies 6y ago
It's not civil disobedience. It's "Tesla has such a liquidity problem that if we wait another week it'll go bankrupt and my net worth will be negative". Also note that he's opening at 100% (not 30% staff) and seems to have taken zero measures "learned from Shanghai". I'm guessing when his plane arrives he'll bring in a couple of masks for the photo ops.