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This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more. COVID is irrelevant. Remember that it's not just new entrants that need H1B processing: it's immigrants curr

This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more. COVID is irrelevant. Remember that it's not just new entrants that need H1B processing: it's immigrants currently in the country that need to transfer their visa type (e.g., former students moving from OPT to H1B). What, are they supposed to leave or risk being denied a visa forevermore? Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing and shut down most offices that process F1 (student) visas. The US just doesn't want high-skilled immigrants anymore.

macspoofing 6y ago
>This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more. COVID is irrelevant. I think COVID is very relevant. But you are also correct that this action is in line with the present administration's immigration policies outside of COVID. In the big picture on the global scale, we're looking at a back-peddling on globalization (which includes immigration and free trade). The echos of the Great Depression should be (but aren't) on the minds of policymakers and the public because this same isolationist and protectionist philosophy exacerbated the pain of the depression.
- deogeo 6y ago
  > in line with the present administration's immigration policies outside of COVID. According to [1], the immigration rate under Trump has slightly increased compared to under Obama, and is at 3x what it was during 1960-1975. So the policies you refer to are nothing but ineffectual noise. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat..., table "Persons obtaining legal permanent resident status by fiscal year"
toomuchtodo 6y ago
Some, but not all, H1B immigrants are highly skilled. Some are fodder for body shops, some are used to avoid having to pay market rate. This behavior has been documented in great detail. I do not believe it unreasonable to take measures to encourage hiring of citizens over importing workers when official unemployment is near 15%, and unofficially, closer to 20%. Your typical tech company is likely to be sophisticated enough to onboard skilled workers outside the US and support them working remotely, in which case, they are not impacted by this policy.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Then change the rules to make it more difficult for the body shops maybe? Doesn't seem too hard
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    > Doesn't seem too hard Apparently it is, as it has not been done.
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      Politically hard most likely, instead of technically hard.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - dudul 6y ago
    Any proposal? They change the rules almost yearly to try to patch loopholes. What do you suggest?
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      > They change the rules almost yearly to try to patch loopholes I haven't seen much in this way. As for what I would propose (if the quotas would be kept) - Go through the applications by higher salaries first - Limit the number of hires per company by number of current employees (something like 1 H1-B for every 5 employees - as an example) - Make the visa transferable after a while
      - dudul 6y ago
        - This would advantage even more the companies that can already more easily hire talent. Also, would you have audits to make sure salaries are not changed 2 months after hire? - Would it work to hire 5 front desk managers to hire 1 engineer on H1B? - It already is. Also fairly cheap, just a few grands for the hiring company, cheaper than recruiter fee. Companies will always find a loophole. Smarter people than you and me (like, law smart) will start cranking at it to help them.
KorematsuFred 6y ago
There are over 200k Indians who are stuck on h1b for more than 10 years. Most of which have us born kids. Makes no sense to have a 60 day freeze on h1bs
- blisterpeanuts 6y ago
  10 years in the U.S.? I thought the path to citizenship or green card was 5 years, or 7 years at most? This is really not a very fair system.
  - dudul 6y ago
    Each queue is managed by country of origin. Last time I read about it, each country would get, at most, 7% of the available GCs. What is more fair? A guy from Island waiting 20 years because he is stuck behind 1 billion Indians? Or Indians waiting longer because more of their nationals are applying? Honestly, I don't know, but I know the 7% rule is justified. The idea is to avoid massive inbound diaspora that would be very hard for the country to absorbed culturally.
    - throwaway3neu94 6y ago
      The problem is not just the per country limit, but also that the total number of greencards available hasn't been updated in decades to keep up with the significant US and worldwide population growth, effectively reducing chances to get one. Also, EB1/2/3 wasn't supposed to do diversity, that's what the diversity lottery is for. Also, the limit could've been applied to visas instead of greencards. I don't see how keeping people in limbo inside the US for decades/lifetimes is reasonable. If they are here de facto permanently anyway, they should get a path to citizenship. A two-class society is wrong.
  - gnulinux 6y ago
    Depends on the country, for people from India or China, 10 years is generous even. For people from other countries ~5 to 7 years sounds normal.
  - 6y ago
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
H1B != immigration Edit: From Wikipedia: Immigration is the international movement of people to a destination country of which they are not natives or where they do not possess citizenship in order to settle as permanent residents or naturalized citizens.
debt 6y ago
“ high-skilled immigrants anymore.” That’s funny. I don’t see how project managers are highly skilled labor. I don’t see how QA testers are highly skilled labor. But I do see how to get people to work harder for less.
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  > I don’t see how project managers are highly skilled labor. I don’t see how QA testers are highly skilled labor. It's unfortunate that you've never worked with a good project manager or good QA testers. The high end of these fields are incredibly highly skilled.
mxcrossb 6y ago
> Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing This one is personal for me. I have a good friend who had been in the US for like a decade, and finally his green card application was going through before the pandemic hit. What’s going to happen to him? Are you going to leave him visa-less during a pandemic, and kick him out of the country on whatever few flights are available? Is his company supposed to magically rebound when they’ve just lost a key worker with tons of experience? Throughout the campaign cycle this president motivated his supporters by talking about illegal immigration. Yet at every opportunity, they instead reduce legal immigration.
awinder 6y ago
"The US just doesn't want high-skilled immigrants anymore." This sucks, and it breaks a lot of Americans hearts. My grandparents were the first natural-born Americans of our family and we were raised to understand what that meant. It's of little consequence right now & on any personal level, but America is not a ubiquitous place and the pendulum swings forever.
- curiousllama 6y ago
  It was the thing that, for most of my life, was touted as a singularly powerful foundation of American success and freedom: that anyone could come and build a life. A more sober look at the reality suggests this myth was... less than true. Nonetheless, I always thought of it as an important ideal. But you're right that the pendulum swings.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more. H1B is a non-immigrant visa. > Remember that it's not just new entrants that need H1B processing: it's immigrants currently in the country that need to transfer their visa type. Immigrants already admitted to the US can not get and would not benefit from a non-immigrant visa. Non-immigrants in the US might seek a different non-immigrant visa, but preventing them from getting one is not an immigration cut. It does not reduce the number of immigrant visas issued. > What, are they supposed to leave or risk being denied a visa forevermore? Yes, non-immigrants are supposed to leave when their eligibility for their non-immigrants visa status expires. That's what a non-immigrant visa means. (Even dual-intent non-immigrant visas: those just do not prohibit you from entering with the intent of seeking an immigrant visa while in non-immigrants status, but doing so displaced another prospective immigrant, so cutting the number of people in a position to do it has zero effect on immigration.) > Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing Well, yes, that's an actual immigration cut. No need for a back door.
- xxpor 6y ago
  H1B is dual intent.
  - pandaman 6y ago
    Dual-intent does not mean what you think it does. It means the visa beneficiary can be admitted on a non-immigrant visa even while having an immigration intent. If this has not been a non-immigrant visa then there would not be the need to designate it as a dual-intent ( there are no dual-intent immigrant visas) so, ironically, people who spam "dual-intent" as a refutal to the statement that it's a non-immigrant visa, in fact, just reaffirm the non-immigrant category of this visa.
    - xxpor 6y ago
      What's your point? I'm saying just because H1B is officially a non-immigrant visa, you can still stay and a green card based on it (eventually).
briffle 6y ago
They shut down many other parts of the government as well, this isn't all targeted at Foreigners. My passport application was sent to them on March 10th, and they have no idea when it will actually be processed. I hope its before Oct, when I have my trip, then again, if things aren't better, I will probably cancel anyways.
- curiousllama 6y ago
  That's a fair point. The gov't is struggling with internal capacity, just like businesses. I think my sensitivity stems from the recent tweet: "WE WILL SHUT DOWN ALL IMMIGRATION" ...

macspoofing 6y ago

>This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more. COVID is irrelevant. I think COVID is very relevant. But you are also correct that this action is in line with the present administration's immigration policies outside of COVID. In the big picture on the global scale, we're looking at a back-peddling on globalization (which includes immigration and free trade). The echos of the Great Depression should be (but aren't) on the minds of policymakers and the public because this same isolationist and protectionist philosophy exacerbated the pain of the depression.

deogeo 6y ago
> in line with the present administration's immigration policies outside of COVID. According to [1], the immigration rate under Trump has slightly increased compared to under Obama, and is at 3x what it was during 1960-1975. So the policies you refer to are nothing but ineffectual noise. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat..., table "Persons obtaining legal permanent resident status by fiscal year"

toomuchtodo 6y ago

Some, but not all, H1B immigrants are highly skilled. Some are fodder for body shops, some are used to avoid having to pay market rate. This behavior has been documented in great detail. I do not believe it unreasonable to take measures to encourage hiring of citizens over importing workers when official unemployment is near 15%, and unofficially, closer to 20%. Your typical tech company is likely to be sophisticated enough to onboard skilled workers outside the US and support them working remotely, in which case, they are not impacted by this policy.

raverbashing 6y ago
Then change the rules to make it more difficult for the body shops maybe? Doesn't seem too hard
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  > Doesn't seem too hard Apparently it is, as it has not been done.
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    Politically hard most likely, instead of technically hard.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- dudul 6y ago
  Any proposal? They change the rules almost yearly to try to patch loopholes. What do you suggest?
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    > They change the rules almost yearly to try to patch loopholes I haven't seen much in this way. As for what I would propose (if the quotas would be kept) - Go through the applications by higher salaries first - Limit the number of hires per company by number of current employees (something like 1 H1-B for every 5 employees - as an example) - Make the visa transferable after a while
    - dudul 6y ago
      - This would advantage even more the companies that can already more easily hire talent. Also, would you have audits to make sure salaries are not changed 2 months after hire? - Would it work to hire 5 front desk managers to hire 1 engineer on H1B? - It already is. Also fairly cheap, just a few grands for the hiring company, cheaper than recruiter fee. Companies will always find a loophole. Smarter people than you and me (like, law smart) will start cranking at it to help them.

KorematsuFred 6y ago

There are over 200k Indians who are stuck on h1b for more than 10 years. Most of which have us born kids. Makes no sense to have a 60 day freeze on h1bs

blisterpeanuts 6y ago
10 years in the U.S.? I thought the path to citizenship or green card was 5 years, or 7 years at most? This is really not a very fair system.
- dudul 6y ago
  Each queue is managed by country of origin. Last time I read about it, each country would get, at most, 7% of the available GCs. What is more fair? A guy from Island waiting 20 years because he is stuck behind 1 billion Indians? Or Indians waiting longer because more of their nationals are applying? Honestly, I don't know, but I know the 7% rule is justified. The idea is to avoid massive inbound diaspora that would be very hard for the country to absorbed culturally.
  - throwaway3neu94 6y ago
    The problem is not just the per country limit, but also that the total number of greencards available hasn't been updated in decades to keep up with the significant US and worldwide population growth, effectively reducing chances to get one. Also, EB1/2/3 wasn't supposed to do diversity, that's what the diversity lottery is for. Also, the limit could've been applied to visas instead of greencards. I don't see how keeping people in limbo inside the US for decades/lifetimes is reasonable. If they are here de facto permanently anyway, they should get a path to citizenship. A two-class society is wrong.
- gnulinux 6y ago
  Depends on the country, for people from India or China, 10 years is generous even. For people from other countries ~5 to 7 years sounds normal.
- 6y ago

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago

H1B != immigration Edit: From Wikipedia: Immigration is the international movement of people to a destination country of which they are not natives or where they do not possess citizenship in order to settle as permanent residents or naturalized citizens.

debt 6y ago

“ high-skilled immigrants anymore.” That’s funny. I don’t see how project managers are highly skilled labor. I don’t see how QA testers are highly skilled labor. But I do see how to get people to work harder for less.

oarsinsync 6y ago
> I don’t see how project managers are highly skilled labor. I don’t see how QA testers are highly skilled labor. It's unfortunate that you've never worked with a good project manager or good QA testers. The high end of these fields are incredibly highly skilled.

mxcrossb 6y ago

> Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing This one is personal for me. I have a good friend who had been in the US for like a decade, and finally his green card application was going through before the pandemic hit. What’s going to happen to him? Are you going to leave him visa-less during a pandemic, and kick him out of the country on whatever few flights are available? Is his company supposed to magically rebound when they’ve just lost a key worker with tons of experience? Throughout the campaign cycle this president motivated his supporters by talking about illegal immigration. Yet at every opportunity, they instead reduce legal immigration.

awinder 6y ago

"The US just doesn't want high-skilled immigrants anymore." This sucks, and it breaks a lot of Americans hearts. My grandparents were the first natural-born Americans of our family and we were raised to understand what that meant. It's of little consequence right now & on any personal level, but America is not a ubiquitous place and the pendulum swings forever.

curiousllama 6y ago
It was the thing that, for most of my life, was touted as a singularly powerful foundation of American success and freedom: that anyone could come and build a life. A more sober look at the reality suggests this myth was... less than true. Nonetheless, I always thought of it as an important ideal. But you're right that the pendulum swings.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more. H1B is a non-immigrant visa. > Remember that it's not just new entrants that need H1B processing: it's immigrants currently in the country that need to transfer their visa type. Immigrants already admitted to the US can not get and would not benefit from a non-immigrant visa. Non-immigrants in the US might seek a different non-immigrant visa, but preventing them from getting one is not an immigration cut. It does not reduce the number of immigrant visas issued. > What, are they supposed to leave or risk being denied a visa forevermore? Yes, non-immigrants are supposed to leave when their eligibility for their non-immigrants visa status expires. That's what a non-immigrant visa means. (Even dual-intent non-immigrant visas: those just do not prohibit you from entering with the intent of seeking an immigrant visa while in non-immigrants status, but doing so displaced another prospective immigrant, so cutting the number of people in a position to do it has zero effect on immigration.) > Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing Well, yes, that's an actual immigration cut. No need for a back door.

xxpor 6y ago
H1B is dual intent.
- pandaman 6y ago
  Dual-intent does not mean what you think it does. It means the visa beneficiary can be admitted on a non-immigrant visa even while having an immigration intent. If this has not been a non-immigrant visa then there would not be the need to designate it as a dual-intent ( there are no dual-intent immigrant visas) so, ironically, people who spam "dual-intent" as a refutal to the statement that it's a non-immigrant visa, in fact, just reaffirm the non-immigrant category of this visa.
  - xxpor 6y ago
    What's your point? I'm saying just because H1B is officially a non-immigrant visa, you can still stay and a green card based on it (eventually).

briffle 6y ago

They shut down many other parts of the government as well, this isn't all targeted at Foreigners. My passport application was sent to them on March 10th, and they have no idea when it will actually be processed. I hope its before Oct, when I have my trip, then again, if things aren't better, I will probably cancel anyways.

curiousllama 6y ago
That's a fair point. The gov't is struggling with internal capacity, just like businesses. I think my sensitivity stems from the recent tweet: "WE WILL SHUT DOWN ALL IMMIGRATION" ...