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I feel like MS laptops are getting bashed left and right by various online experts these days without a decent reason. Apple products are not less cheaper and f

I feel like MS laptops are getting bashed left and right by various online experts these days without a decent reason. Apple products are not less cheaper and follow the same "100EUR for a charger" scheme. If you calculate the totals, MS laptop is no more experiensive than the Apple one. Except with MS products you also get a true mobile experience if that is what you are after. The only drawback is Windows and its tooling. Which you can still circumvent with WLS. I wish Surface lineup was 100% Linux compatible, alas.

rsynnott 6y ago
This isn't a laptop and suffers from a bit of "neither one thing nor another" syndrome; it can be used as either a kinda awkward tablet, or a _really_ awkward laptop (good luck using one on your lap on a plane or train or something, say). I think a certain amount of scepticism is warranted. If you _just_ want a laptop, a laptop will be far better than this thing. If you just want a tablet, an iPad will be far better than this thing. If you want both... well, maybe it works, as long as you don't want to use it in laptop-y scenarios and you're okay with Windows' tablet experience? It feels pretty niche.
- Kipters 6y ago
  To be fair, I've been using my Surface Pro 4 for a bit over four years now, and pre-lockdown I was on 2 round-trip flights a month on average. No issue whatsoever using it on the tray. On the contrary, my size and the reduced seat pitch in most narrow body aircrafts made my other machine (a 15" macbook) rather unusable.
  - stinos 6y ago
    Same experience here. I hear the 'unusable on lap' sentiment seemingly often (including in the OP article itself). Yet, I honestly cannot tell is because it's only the ones with a bad experience speaking up and the rest remaining silent, or because there really is a problem I'm not aware of. And in both cases: I honestly wonder how that is possible? Is my body different in some way that I don't see the difference between a Surface and a laptop for lap use? Or do I do things in another way than others? Are my legs longer than average? I mean I just put my legs next to each other, put the thing somewhere on my lap, screen like 15cm in fron of my knees, adjust the stand so it's in an angle I normally use and that's it. The only problem I could see is that if you'd want the screen to be roughly where your knees are that is impossible. But for me that distance is just a bit too much to be able to read text comfortably and I cannot rest my arms anymore because of how far the keyboard is.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      That seems very awkward versus a laptop, though; in particular you'd have stay very still. I'd expect it to be particularly problematic on a bus or train, where there was movement.
      - stinos 6y ago
        The hinge is sturdy so in comparison with a laptop you don't have one big contact area with your legs but the bottom of the kickstand and the botom of the machine itself which don't move with respect to each other. The bottom of the keyboard kan move wrt the rest but only in one plane. I don't see how movement of whatever you're sitting on changes much in how the thing sits on your lap. I also don't encounter that when I'm on a bus or so.
    - numpad0 6y ago
      https://msegceporticoprodassets.blob.core.windows.net/asset-blobs/4101084_en_1 https://msegceporticoprodassets.blob.core.windows.net/asset-... This image is from Microsoft.com. Think how much his upper torso will have to bend to look at the middle of his thighs.
      - stinos 6y ago
        Sure, but the image shows a desktop. I'm talking about differences of the Surface vs a 'standard' laptop when used on your lap.
        numpad0 6y ago
        I’m talking the combination of a chair similar to that and Surface devices. I guess people who don’t have problems with Surface sits less often in surfaces that high and upright.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Anecdotally, I tried OG Surface Pro back when it launched. On my lap the kickstand was extremely unstable; on high speed rail chairs the angle of kickstand was extremely steep and uncomfortable; on university desks and cafeteria tables it was okay but never good; only on airplane couches and Starbucks tables, which I’m not as privileged to say I use with frequency, it fit, at all. The kickstand has reportedly improved since, but the problem is that it’s a highly engineered design for multiple but precisely pre-determined situations, with a limited adaptability. Traditional laptop hinges on the other hand, oh they work beautifully between 0 to 1.1g under any posture, if you could put it on a lap or table it’ll be nice. That’s it. Way better than the kickstand.
    - Kipters 6y ago
      Keep in mind the device "lapability" improved a lot in the subsequent iterations, for two reasons: - the kickstand is now freely adjustable, you can set it at any angle (there are no pre-determined stops) - the keyboard "sticks" to the bottom of the front side, this both gives the device more rigidity on your lap and improves the typing angle I have never used an OG Pro, but I've used an RT and the difference is night and day
- tastyminerals2 6y ago
  I disagree in case of Surface Book. I didn't try Go. This is a powerful premium laptop which can be used not only for pleasant programming experience due to good keyboard and 4k screen but also gaming due to powerful GPU card. It does not get hot and loud as much as any traditional gaming laptop with the same GPU card because GPU and CPU are separated (GPU under the keyboard and CPU in the detachable screen). I mean this is like the biggest advantage of all Surface Book laptops that makes them powerful, silent and cool at the same time. It might be not as powerful as dedicated gaming laptops but it is better because it is not even half as hot and loud. And which of your gaming laptops can run at least two hours without a socket? Honestly, the battery life of my wife's Mac Air 2019 is laughable in comparison. It is also a good tablet. The only disadvantage for as a tablet is battery life which is far less than in iPads and Android devices. But neither of them is 15 inch and is equipped with an iCore. There is no alternative on the market for Surface Book 2. Recent Surface Book 3 might not be more powerful as the audience expected but I would go for it all the same just because how much more malleable this machine is. If you need a mobile pc, this is the one.
  - Ididntdothis 6y ago
    Funny how different people come to different conclusions. I have a Book 2 and I regret it almost every day. The dock constantly runs out of USB resources, when I detach the tablet the external screen configuration gets f...ed up in random ways forcing me to rearrange screens and font sizes for a few minutes, the tablet mode feels very awkward to use and for its spec and price the Book 2 is not very fast. My company also HP Zbook laptops. Next time I will get one of those those again instead. Not a very elegant laptop but it works.
    - tastyminerals2 6y ago
      Emm, screen config not retained is an OS issue and not a laptop tbo. I agree that tablet mode is not convenient but you are free to stay in desktop mode. USB resources are not enough but I never ran out of USB ports because I have no use for them. I connect everything via Bluetooth, mouse, headphones. Mini display port for external monitor. Yes, for the price of ~2k you can buy a more powerful laptop. But how less powerful a 1.5 year old Surface i7 with GTX1060 even nowadays? I think the whole performance debate is a big exaggeration unless you're getting into high-end gaming on 4k resolutions or deep learning. If I needed power, I would never go with a laptop no matter how powerful it is. Buy a PC because this is what they are for. I am personally over with classical monoblock laptops with GPU and CPU squeezed together. It feels just dated.
- rb808 6y ago
  I agree a laptop is a better laptop but for a tablet I find surface much better than ipad, and at a pinch (like on vacation) I can use a bluetooth keyboard and do some urgent work on it.
- tw04 6y ago
  In theory the lap thing can be fixed with a third-party keyboard (when it gets released). I've been patiently waiting for something like this for my surface go because you're spot on - lap use is basically impossible. Time will tell if it's any good: https://www.brydge.com/pages/designed-for-surface-tablets https://www.brydge.com/pages/designed-for-surface-tablets
- partiallypro 6y ago
  I've never understood this complaint. I've had multiple Surface Pros and have never had problems with it in my lap, even on long train rides abroad.
dgellow 6y ago
> The only drawback is Windows and its tooling. I switched last year from using Linux and macOS for 10+ years to a surface laptop. At the beginning Windows was going on my way all the time, but now that I’m more familiar with its system and powershell, it’s way better, and I really enjoy it as a dev environment. The main pain comes from a lack of familiarity. Once that’s behind, you can be quite productive using Windows. I now spend almost all my time in powershell and only use WSL for some specific stuff.
- dman 6y ago
  Do you mind elaborating what kind of problems you work on?
- izacus 6y ago
  Yeah, IMO if you start out by installing bash and trying to treat Windows like a Unix, you're in for some really bad time. A lot of developer tooling works just fine in Windows environment and trying to fight the system with unix shell is not the best way to coexist.
  - nailer 6y ago
    Agreed 100% pre-WSL, but now it's changed with WSL. Have used Powershell for last five years, but bash on Ubuntu is great.
- tracker1 6y ago
  I'm almost the opposite... been on the insiders channel for WSL2 and Docker + WSL2 support has been really good since switching in early March. I did try it a bit over a year ago and wasn't nearly as pleasant... when WSL2 etc will hit mainline, who knows for sure, if it hasn't already.
- pfranz 6y ago
  I had the opposite experience. Similar background, Used Windows heavily from DOS through XP. Started a job as Windows 10 had some major incremental releases and was eager to learn PowerShell and see what Windows had done in 10 years. I earnestly wish I documented my disappointment when I encountered the same annoyances I hadn't seen since I left Windows because after awhile I forgot what they were. Annoying things like updates requiring reboots at least once a month, when an application was busy I couldn't move it out of the way (to do something else while I waited to see if it finished). I found PowerShell too verbose for everyday use, the "terse" commands too different and undiscoverable, everyone I worked with was still entrenched with BAT files, and to run PS1 files I needed to wrap it in a BAT file for security. I glommed onto WSL, but found myself logging into an Ubuntu box we had because it was nicer. I was happy my next job was a lot less heavy on Windows. I'd switch to Linux as my daily-driver and dual-boot Windows if I had to.
paulcole 6y ago
> The only drawback is Windows and its tooling Oh goo, I was worried it was a serious drawback. Also try reselling a Surface Go 2 in 3 years compared to a MacBook Air/Pro.
- tastyminerals2 6y ago
  This is debatable but I would agree to some extend that it is easier to resell MacBook Air/Pro than Surface. I would also argue that it is rather due to higher familiarity with Apple products, not hardware. In anyway, this is not an argument in favor of Apple products.
  - cwhiz 6y ago
    I would say it definitely is an argument. I recently sold my 2016 15” MacBook Pro for $1,400. It held on to nearly 50% of its value. I tend to upgrade every three years and this cuts the effective price in half. It is no different than factoring in resale value on a car or house purchase.
phrz 6y ago
(Not specific to Surface Go 2) I assure you there is sometimes a reason, which in my mind can be generalized as lack of attention to detail: I deployed Surface Laptop 3’s to my SMB and now hairline screen cracking [1] is popping up left and right. Why? Because MS opted not to put a rubber gasket around their screens so when they changed from fabric to metal wrist rests, the imperfect closure fit led to pieces of sand etc. obliterating screens. When I account for my lost time dealing with support, and the occasional cost of replacing devices/accessories that support will not, MS devices are far more expensive than Macs. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/8/21252634/microsoft-surface-laptop-3-screen-crack-free-repair https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/8/21252634/microsoft-surface...
- tastyminerals2 6y ago
  I agree. It is a design flaw I was well aware before making a purchase and bought a screen protector for Surface. It served me well so far, I am also more careful of not holding the laptop by the edge or slapping it too much. However, I think it is good since it forces you to be careful with the expensive gadget. Yes, the repairability is very bad and yes such are the costs for being detachable.
- laumars 6y ago
  I’m not defending that design flaw but MacBook Pro’s haven’t exactly been free from issues themselves (up until their recent generation they had an ongoing problem with their keyboard that went on for years). Frankly I miss the days when business machines weren’t made with aesthetics given as a priority.
- realharo 6y ago
  After being subscribed to Louis Rossmann's YouTube channel for a while, I'm not sure Macs are much better in that regard (e.g. butterfly keyboard issues and replacement program, the bizarre cooling solution in new MacBook Air, pin layout that's very susceptible to liquid damage, etc.)
  - afiori 6y ago
    Most of Louis' criticism of Apple are not about the frequency of problems, rather on how they treat the consumer once problems happen.
gmaster1440 6y ago
Use Microsoft Surface Laptop 2 and 3 for work, have to disagree that the only drawback is software. The trackpad is significantly worse on Microsoft devices than Apple fairly consistently. Even the new Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro trackpad, albeit smaller in size, is more sensitive and accurate than the Surface Laptop 3's.
- hadrien01 6y ago
  That's purely software, if you use Windows under Boot Camp on a MacBook it will be identical to a PC
  - BrentOzar 6y ago
    > That's purely software, if you use Windows under Boot Camp on a MacBook it will be identical to a PC Right, but Microsoft owns both the hardware and the software stack here. It's not like they're reviewing an Asus laptop and complaining about the trackpad.
  - gmaster1440 6y ago
    It's hard for me to believe that Microsoft would not invest in first-class touchpad drivers for Windows for their flagship devices, given that the touchpad is the main way someone would interface with their device, but it's possible that it's entirely a software issue I guess.
    - fomine3 6y ago
      Drop Synaptics' driver and use Microsoft's precision touchpad driver.
- tw04 6y ago
  Odd, I use both daily (original surface book, surface go, 2018 MBP) and completely disagree. Microsoft trackpads are the only ones I've come across that are just as good as Apple. You are the only person I've heard bash them. I've got hundreds of peers in the same boat and the MS trackpads are universally lauded.
realharo 6y ago
Windows does have its flaws (e.g. the useless built-in search), but its window management and taskbar UI is the best of any OS I've ever seen - the live previews on hover, the way it interacts with middle click just like browser tabs/links, the window snapping with multiple monitors, etc. We'll see what WSL 2 brings to the table.
- mattferderer 6y ago
  What's wrong with the built-in search? I'll agree the start menu search can be slow on occasion & instead of giving me an app will give me a Bing search on IE. That's my only complaint. Otherwise I like how I can search for just about anything with it. I'm a huge fan of the processes/windows search (Ctrl+Win) to help me find an app on a different visual desktop or a browser tab hidden among the weeds.
  - realharo 6y ago
    It seems ok now that I'm trying it, but I definitely remember not being able to find a specific settings screen (I think it was network connections) even when typing its literal exact name. Same for various applications. Maybe they fixed it in one of the more recent Windows 10 updates.
  - lostmsu 6y ago
    > processes/windows search (Ctrl+Win) Just tried that combination, and it did nothing. What feature are you referring to?
- vezycash 6y ago
  I use the start menu only for opening programs. For file search, use the program called Everything(). It's the first icon pinned on my taskbar, so the shortcut (Win+1) works. https://www.voidtools.com/ https://www.voidtools.com/
- pfranz 6y ago
  > window management and taskbar UI is the best of any OS I've ever seen I /really/ missed in Linux where MMB-drag and RMB-drag to move resize windows without grabbing small UI dressing. The taskbar fills too quickly (you can't read the window text) and when it groups by Application it's not really any different than macOS' dock. I didn't find the stickiness or snapping that helpful. I tried to embrace the window management and taskbar UI, but I greatly prefer both macOS and the many Linux options. I later tried add-ons to get Windows to add features I missed and unsurprisingly found those clunky as well.
pwthornton 6y ago
I am not clear how this is a true mobile experience versus an iPad. This seems like an iPad competitor, not a MacBook Pro competitor, and the iPad is quite a mobile solution. It’s a much different solution than this, for sure, but it is a mobile solution. I recently got a 10.2 inch iPad to add to my home setup of a 27-inch iMac and a 12.9 inch iPad Pro because I wanted something super portable that I could do work on when I am chasing the kids around. It’s really portable, and I can get a surprising amount of work done on it.
nailer 6y ago
> The only drawback is Windows and its tooling. Which you can still circumvent with WLS. WSL, and Terminal, is Windows tooling. It's a Microsoft project, a Microsoft compiled Linux kernel, a `wslu` package that runs in Linux is built by Microsoft, //$wsl using the P9 file server forked by Microsoft. It might sound like a nit pick, but they're spending a lot of time and effort and money to ensure Windows has a better Unix experience than macOS.
giancarlostoro 6y ago
The nice thing about them is they're not just laptops but tablets as well. I love my Surface Book 2, the only iffy thing is the detachable portion, it is not 100% stable and if they can fix that I'd be set and buy only this laptop type for the rest of my life, not sure if they fixed it in the SB3 or not though. I would love to buy a Surface Go but Windows 10 lacks some apps I'd like to see on a tablet that are already on both iOS/iPadOS and Android. If they matched the top 25 apps both platforms have in each respective app category, they'd probably have a better chance to have me buy Microsoft only tablets. I guess their niche they can fill is Office on the go, but life's about more than just Office. Mind you, I tried the PWA version of some of the top apps, but they lack features on Windows 10 (who apparently adds PWA's to their store).
jccalhoun 6y ago
As a windows user and primarily Android users, when I bought an ipad a few months ago I was stunned at the things that were either unintuitive or impossible to do in ipad (I just want an alphabetical list of all the apps installed. Is that so hard? Why is it is still so hard to go back one space in a text field?) Looking at the new ipad pro keyboard monstrosity, I can't imagine how people wouldn't laugh it out of the room if microsoft, google, or samsung released the same product. Doubles the weight of the tablet and has that weird hinge thing, and that price.
bythckr 6y ago
In terms of build quality, MS laptops need to priorities quality over looks. Windows software is still a mess. I wish they that drivers can be used by all major linux distro and ensure that the surface lineup is 100% linux compatible. Microsoft should develop a Desktop environment on linux based on the metro design or Fluent design system which will suit the touch part on the surface tablets.
rowanG077 6y ago
The surface pros are almost 100% Linux compatible fwiw. I don't about the other products.

rsynnott 6y ago

This isn't a laptop and suffers from a bit of "neither one thing nor another" syndrome; it can be used as either a kinda awkward tablet, or a _really_ awkward laptop (good luck using one on your lap on a plane or train or something, say). I think a certain amount of scepticism is warranted. If you _just_ want a laptop, a laptop will be far better than this thing. If you just want a tablet, an iPad will be far better than this thing. If you want both... well, maybe it works, as long as you don't want to use it in laptop-y scenarios and you're okay with Windows' tablet experience? It feels pretty niche.

Kipters 6y ago
To be fair, I've been using my Surface Pro 4 for a bit over four years now, and pre-lockdown I was on 2 round-trip flights a month on average. No issue whatsoever using it on the tray. On the contrary, my size and the reduced seat pitch in most narrow body aircrafts made my other machine (a 15" macbook) rather unusable.
- stinos 6y ago
  Same experience here. I hear the 'unusable on lap' sentiment seemingly often (including in the OP article itself). Yet, I honestly cannot tell is because it's only the ones with a bad experience speaking up and the rest remaining silent, or because there really is a problem I'm not aware of. And in both cases: I honestly wonder how that is possible? Is my body different in some way that I don't see the difference between a Surface and a laptop for lap use? Or do I do things in another way than others? Are my legs longer than average? I mean I just put my legs next to each other, put the thing somewhere on my lap, screen like 15cm in fron of my knees, adjust the stand so it's in an angle I normally use and that's it. The only problem I could see is that if you'd want the screen to be roughly where your knees are that is impossible. But for me that distance is just a bit too much to be able to read text comfortably and I cannot rest my arms anymore because of how far the keyboard is.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    That seems very awkward versus a laptop, though; in particular you'd have stay very still. I'd expect it to be particularly problematic on a bus or train, where there was movement.
    - stinos 6y ago
      The hinge is sturdy so in comparison with a laptop you don't have one big contact area with your legs but the bottom of the kickstand and the botom of the machine itself which don't move with respect to each other. The bottom of the keyboard kan move wrt the rest but only in one plane. I don't see how movement of whatever you're sitting on changes much in how the thing sits on your lap. I also don't encounter that when I'm on a bus or so.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    https://msegceporticoprodassets.blob.core.windows.net/asset-blobs/4101084_en_1 https://msegceporticoprodassets.blob.core.windows.net/asset-... This image is from Microsoft.com. Think how much his upper torso will have to bend to look at the middle of his thighs.
    - stinos 6y ago
      Sure, but the image shows a desktop. I'm talking about differences of the Surface vs a 'standard' laptop when used on your lap.
      - numpad0 6y ago
        I’m talking the combination of a chair similar to that and Surface devices. I guess people who don’t have problems with Surface sits less often in surfaces that high and upright.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Anecdotally, I tried OG Surface Pro back when it launched. On my lap the kickstand was extremely unstable; on high speed rail chairs the angle of kickstand was extremely steep and uncomfortable; on university desks and cafeteria tables it was okay but never good; only on airplane couches and Starbucks tables, which I’m not as privileged to say I use with frequency, it fit, at all. The kickstand has reportedly improved since, but the problem is that it’s a highly engineered design for multiple but precisely pre-determined situations, with a limited adaptability. Traditional laptop hinges on the other hand, oh they work beautifully between 0 to 1.1g under any posture, if you could put it on a lap or table it’ll be nice. That’s it. Way better than the kickstand.
  - Kipters 6y ago
    Keep in mind the device "lapability" improved a lot in the subsequent iterations, for two reasons: - the kickstand is now freely adjustable, you can set it at any angle (there are no pre-determined stops) - the keyboard "sticks" to the bottom of the front side, this both gives the device more rigidity on your lap and improves the typing angle I have never used an OG Pro, but I've used an RT and the difference is night and day
tastyminerals2 6y ago
I disagree in case of Surface Book. I didn't try Go. This is a powerful premium laptop which can be used not only for pleasant programming experience due to good keyboard and 4k screen but also gaming due to powerful GPU card. It does not get hot and loud as much as any traditional gaming laptop with the same GPU card because GPU and CPU are separated (GPU under the keyboard and CPU in the detachable screen). I mean this is like the biggest advantage of all Surface Book laptops that makes them powerful, silent and cool at the same time. It might be not as powerful as dedicated gaming laptops but it is better because it is not even half as hot and loud. And which of your gaming laptops can run at least two hours without a socket? Honestly, the battery life of my wife's Mac Air 2019 is laughable in comparison. It is also a good tablet. The only disadvantage for as a tablet is battery life which is far less than in iPads and Android devices. But neither of them is 15 inch and is equipped with an iCore. There is no alternative on the market for Surface Book 2. Recent Surface Book 3 might not be more powerful as the audience expected but I would go for it all the same just because how much more malleable this machine is. If you need a mobile pc, this is the one.
- Ididntdothis 6y ago
  Funny how different people come to different conclusions. I have a Book 2 and I regret it almost every day. The dock constantly runs out of USB resources, when I detach the tablet the external screen configuration gets f...ed up in random ways forcing me to rearrange screens and font sizes for a few minutes, the tablet mode feels very awkward to use and for its spec and price the Book 2 is not very fast. My company also HP Zbook laptops. Next time I will get one of those those again instead. Not a very elegant laptop but it works.
  - tastyminerals2 6y ago
    Emm, screen config not retained is an OS issue and not a laptop tbo. I agree that tablet mode is not convenient but you are free to stay in desktop mode. USB resources are not enough but I never ran out of USB ports because I have no use for them. I connect everything via Bluetooth, mouse, headphones. Mini display port for external monitor. Yes, for the price of ~2k you can buy a more powerful laptop. But how less powerful a 1.5 year old Surface i7 with GTX1060 even nowadays? I think the whole performance debate is a big exaggeration unless you're getting into high-end gaming on 4k resolutions or deep learning. If I needed power, I would never go with a laptop no matter how powerful it is. Buy a PC because this is what they are for. I am personally over with classical monoblock laptops with GPU and CPU squeezed together. It feels just dated.
rb808 6y ago
I agree a laptop is a better laptop but for a tablet I find surface much better than ipad, and at a pinch (like on vacation) I can use a bluetooth keyboard and do some urgent work on it.
tw04 6y ago
In theory the lap thing can be fixed with a third-party keyboard (when it gets released). I've been patiently waiting for something like this for my surface go because you're spot on - lap use is basically impossible. Time will tell if it's any good: https://www.brydge.com/pages/designed-for-surface-tablets https://www.brydge.com/pages/designed-for-surface-tablets
partiallypro 6y ago
I've never understood this complaint. I've had multiple Surface Pros and have never had problems with it in my lap, even on long train rides abroad.

dgellow 6y ago

> The only drawback is Windows and its tooling. I switched last year from using Linux and macOS for 10+ years to a surface laptop. At the beginning Windows was going on my way all the time, but now that I’m more familiar with its system and powershell, it’s way better, and I really enjoy it as a dev environment. The main pain comes from a lack of familiarity. Once that’s behind, you can be quite productive using Windows. I now spend almost all my time in powershell and only use WSL for some specific stuff.

dman 6y ago
Do you mind elaborating what kind of problems you work on?
izacus 6y ago
Yeah, IMO if you start out by installing bash and trying to treat Windows like a Unix, you're in for some really bad time. A lot of developer tooling works just fine in Windows environment and trying to fight the system with unix shell is not the best way to coexist.
- nailer 6y ago
  Agreed 100% pre-WSL, but now it's changed with WSL. Have used Powershell for last five years, but bash on Ubuntu is great.
tracker1 6y ago
I'm almost the opposite... been on the insiders channel for WSL2 and Docker + WSL2 support has been really good since switching in early March. I did try it a bit over a year ago and wasn't nearly as pleasant... when WSL2 etc will hit mainline, who knows for sure, if it hasn't already.
pfranz 6y ago
I had the opposite experience. Similar background, Used Windows heavily from DOS through XP. Started a job as Windows 10 had some major incremental releases and was eager to learn PowerShell and see what Windows had done in 10 years. I earnestly wish I documented my disappointment when I encountered the same annoyances I hadn't seen since I left Windows because after awhile I forgot what they were. Annoying things like updates requiring reboots at least once a month, when an application was busy I couldn't move it out of the way (to do something else while I waited to see if it finished). I found PowerShell too verbose for everyday use, the "terse" commands too different and undiscoverable, everyone I worked with was still entrenched with BAT files, and to run PS1 files I needed to wrap it in a BAT file for security. I glommed onto WSL, but found myself logging into an Ubuntu box we had because it was nicer. I was happy my next job was a lot less heavy on Windows. I'd switch to Linux as my daily-driver and dual-boot Windows if I had to.

paulcole 6y ago

> The only drawback is Windows and its tooling Oh goo, I was worried it was a serious drawback. Also try reselling a Surface Go 2 in 3 years compared to a MacBook Air/Pro.

tastyminerals2 6y ago
This is debatable but I would agree to some extend that it is easier to resell MacBook Air/Pro than Surface. I would also argue that it is rather due to higher familiarity with Apple products, not hardware. In anyway, this is not an argument in favor of Apple products.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  I would say it definitely is an argument. I recently sold my 2016 15” MacBook Pro for $1,400. It held on to nearly 50% of its value. I tend to upgrade every three years and this cuts the effective price in half. It is no different than factoring in resale value on a car or house purchase.

phrz 6y ago

(Not specific to Surface Go 2) I assure you there is sometimes a reason, which in my mind can be generalized as lack of attention to detail: I deployed Surface Laptop 3’s to my SMB and now hairline screen cracking [1] is popping up left and right. Why? Because MS opted not to put a rubber gasket around their screens so when they changed from fabric to metal wrist rests, the imperfect closure fit led to pieces of sand etc. obliterating screens. When I account for my lost time dealing with support, and the occasional cost of replacing devices/accessories that support will not, MS devices are far more expensive than Macs. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/8/21252634/microsoft-surface-laptop-3-screen-crack-free-repair https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/8/21252634/microsoft-surface...

tastyminerals2 6y ago
I agree. It is a design flaw I was well aware before making a purchase and bought a screen protector for Surface. It served me well so far, I am also more careful of not holding the laptop by the edge or slapping it too much. However, I think it is good since it forces you to be careful with the expensive gadget. Yes, the repairability is very bad and yes such are the costs for being detachable.
laumars 6y ago
I’m not defending that design flaw but MacBook Pro’s haven’t exactly been free from issues themselves (up until their recent generation they had an ongoing problem with their keyboard that went on for years). Frankly I miss the days when business machines weren’t made with aesthetics given as a priority.
realharo 6y ago
After being subscribed to Louis Rossmann's YouTube channel for a while, I'm not sure Macs are much better in that regard (e.g. butterfly keyboard issues and replacement program, the bizarre cooling solution in new MacBook Air, pin layout that's very susceptible to liquid damage, etc.)
- afiori 6y ago
  Most of Louis' criticism of Apple are not about the frequency of problems, rather on how they treat the consumer once problems happen.

gmaster1440 6y ago

Use Microsoft Surface Laptop 2 and 3 for work, have to disagree that the only drawback is software. The trackpad is significantly worse on Microsoft devices than Apple fairly consistently. Even the new Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro trackpad, albeit smaller in size, is more sensitive and accurate than the Surface Laptop 3's.

hadrien01 6y ago
That's purely software, if you use Windows under Boot Camp on a MacBook it will be identical to a PC
- BrentOzar 6y ago
  > That's purely software, if you use Windows under Boot Camp on a MacBook it will be identical to a PC Right, but Microsoft owns both the hardware and the software stack here. It's not like they're reviewing an Asus laptop and complaining about the trackpad.
- gmaster1440 6y ago
  It's hard for me to believe that Microsoft would not invest in first-class touchpad drivers for Windows for their flagship devices, given that the touchpad is the main way someone would interface with their device, but it's possible that it's entirely a software issue I guess.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    Drop Synaptics' driver and use Microsoft's precision touchpad driver.
tw04 6y ago
Odd, I use both daily (original surface book, surface go, 2018 MBP) and completely disagree. Microsoft trackpads are the only ones I've come across that are just as good as Apple. You are the only person I've heard bash them. I've got hundreds of peers in the same boat and the MS trackpads are universally lauded.

realharo 6y ago

Windows does have its flaws (e.g. the useless built-in search), but its window management and taskbar UI is the best of any OS I've ever seen - the live previews on hover, the way it interacts with middle click just like browser tabs/links, the window snapping with multiple monitors, etc. We'll see what WSL 2 brings to the table.

mattferderer 6y ago
What's wrong with the built-in search? I'll agree the start menu search can be slow on occasion & instead of giving me an app will give me a Bing search on IE. That's my only complaint. Otherwise I like how I can search for just about anything with it. I'm a huge fan of the processes/windows search (Ctrl+Win) to help me find an app on a different visual desktop or a browser tab hidden among the weeds.
- realharo 6y ago
  It seems ok now that I'm trying it, but I definitely remember not being able to find a specific settings screen (I think it was network connections) even when typing its literal exact name. Same for various applications. Maybe they fixed it in one of the more recent Windows 10 updates.
- lostmsu 6y ago
  > processes/windows search (Ctrl+Win) Just tried that combination, and it did nothing. What feature are you referring to?
vezycash 6y ago
I use the start menu only for opening programs. For file search, use the program called Everything(). It's the first icon pinned on my taskbar, so the shortcut (Win+1) works. https://www.voidtools.com/ https://www.voidtools.com/
pfranz 6y ago
> window management and taskbar UI is the best of any OS I've ever seen I /really/ missed in Linux where MMB-drag and RMB-drag to move resize windows without grabbing small UI dressing. The taskbar fills too quickly (you can't read the window text) and when it groups by Application it's not really any different than macOS' dock. I didn't find the stickiness or snapping that helpful. I tried to embrace the window management and taskbar UI, but I greatly prefer both macOS and the many Linux options. I later tried add-ons to get Windows to add features I missed and unsurprisingly found those clunky as well.

pwthornton 6y ago

I am not clear how this is a true mobile experience versus an iPad. This seems like an iPad competitor, not a MacBook Pro competitor, and the iPad is quite a mobile solution. It’s a much different solution than this, for sure, but it is a mobile solution. I recently got a 10.2 inch iPad to add to my home setup of a 27-inch iMac and a 12.9 inch iPad Pro because I wanted something super portable that I could do work on when I am chasing the kids around. It’s really portable, and I can get a surprising amount of work done on it.

nailer 6y ago

> The only drawback is Windows and its tooling. Which you can still circumvent with WLS. WSL, and Terminal, is Windows tooling. It's a Microsoft project, a Microsoft compiled Linux kernel, a `wslu` package that runs in Linux is built by Microsoft, //$wsl using the P9 file server forked by Microsoft. It might sound like a nit pick, but they're spending a lot of time and effort and money to ensure Windows has a better Unix experience than macOS.

giancarlostoro 6y ago

The nice thing about them is they're not just laptops but tablets as well. I love my Surface Book 2, the only iffy thing is the detachable portion, it is not 100% stable and if they can fix that I'd be set and buy only this laptop type for the rest of my life, not sure if they fixed it in the SB3 or not though. I would love to buy a Surface Go but Windows 10 lacks some apps I'd like to see on a tablet that are already on both iOS/iPadOS and Android. If they matched the top 25 apps both platforms have in each respective app category, they'd probably have a better chance to have me buy Microsoft only tablets. I guess their niche they can fill is Office on the go, but life's about more than just Office. Mind you, I tried the PWA version of some of the top apps, but they lack features on Windows 10 (who apparently adds PWA's to their store).

jccalhoun 6y ago

As a windows user and primarily Android users, when I bought an ipad a few months ago I was stunned at the things that were either unintuitive or impossible to do in ipad (I just want an alphabetical list of all the apps installed. Is that so hard? Why is it is still so hard to go back one space in a text field?) Looking at the new ipad pro keyboard monstrosity, I can't imagine how people wouldn't laugh it out of the room if microsoft, google, or samsung released the same product. Doubles the weight of the tablet and has that weird hinge thing, and that price.

bythckr 6y ago

In terms of build quality, MS laptops need to priorities quality over looks. Windows software is still a mess. I wish they that drivers can be used by all major linux distro and ensure that the surface lineup is 100% linux compatible. Microsoft should develop a Desktop environment on linux based on the metro design or Fluent design system which will suit the touch part on the surface tablets.

rowanG077 6y ago

The surface pros are almost 100% Linux compatible fwiw. I don't about the other products.