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The 86% number was (more or less - the article says 84%) supported by the times in 2018. Their analysis includes pension plans. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02

The 86% number was (more or less - the article says 84%) supported by the times in 2018. Their analysis includes pension plans. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/business/economy/stocks-economy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/business/economy/stocks-e...

WalterBright 6y ago
The article shows 45% of American households have a pension plan that's invested in stocks.
- anamexis 6y ago
  Right, but: > A whopping 84 percent of all stocks owned by Americans belong to the wealthiest 10 percent of households. And that includes everyone’s stakes in pension plans, 401(k)’s and individual retirement accounts, as well as trust funds, mutual funds and college savings programs like 529 plans.
- ComputerGuru 6y ago
  That’s entirely orthogonal though, isn’t it?
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    The point is they are participating in the stock market and benefiting from its gains.
    - ComputerGuru 6y ago
      That’s true. I suppose there’s not much else they/we can do and the 86% represents the status quo even after their efforts.
    - aeturnum 6y ago
      I mean, if 0.1% of your savings is in the market, you're "participating" in some sense, but not with any real impact. My sense is that, for the great majority of people in the United States, the stock market's value doubling would mean little for their financial health. Having a retirement fund that goes from $10,000 to $20,000 (or even $100,000 to $200,000) has a relatively small impact on the prospect of retiring [1]. [1] Depends on circumstance, but people are generally supposed to have at least $1,000,000 in savings by 67. https://www.nerdwallet.com/investing/retirement-calculator https://www.nerdwallet.com/investing/retirement-calculator
      - WalterBright 6y ago
        > if 0.1% of your savings is in the market That means you chose not to participate in the market, not that you were prevented. In which case I can't accept grousing about not getting the gains from investing in the market. > retirement-calculator Use it. It'll show how much you need to invest monthly to retire a millionaire. Your money will do a lot better than double.
        callalex 6y ago
        >That means you _chose_ not to participate in the market You can’t invest money you don’t have.
        WalterBright 6y ago
        May I suggest examining "if 0.1% of your savings is in the market" again? Like what happened with the other 99.9% of your savings?
        justin66 6y ago
        Without sperging out about the specific percentage: a situation where people have a tiny amount saved for retirement, and almost all their net worth in a house and car, is actually quite common.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    No. It is comparing different things. The percentage of Americans who own stocks is different that the percentage of stocks owned by americans. Say 90% of americans "own some stock" but they are dirt poor. Their share of the total stocks available could well be 1%. The rich 10% then own 99% of the market AND 90% of the population own some stock. One fact does not negate the other. Remember that the median income in the US is about 30k. If you have any sort of actual pension plan, there is a good chance you are in the top 10% in terms of net worth.
    - bluehex 6y ago
      I think you've just supported the claim that the two facts are entirely orthogonal.

WalterBright 6y ago

The article shows 45% of American households have a pension plan that's invested in stocks.

anamexis 6y ago
Right, but: > A whopping 84 percent of all stocks owned by Americans belong to the wealthiest 10 percent of households. And that includes everyone’s stakes in pension plans, 401(k)’s and individual retirement accounts, as well as trust funds, mutual funds and college savings programs like 529 plans.
ComputerGuru 6y ago
That’s entirely orthogonal though, isn’t it?
- WalterBright 6y ago
  The point is they are participating in the stock market and benefiting from its gains.
  - ComputerGuru 6y ago
    That’s true. I suppose there’s not much else they/we can do and the 86% represents the status quo even after their efforts.
  - aeturnum 6y ago
    I mean, if 0.1% of your savings is in the market, you're "participating" in some sense, but not with any real impact. My sense is that, for the great majority of people in the United States, the stock market's value doubling would mean little for their financial health. Having a retirement fund that goes from $10,000 to $20,000 (or even $100,000 to $200,000) has a relatively small impact on the prospect of retiring [1]. [1] Depends on circumstance, but people are generally supposed to have at least $1,000,000 in savings by 67. https://www.nerdwallet.com/investing/retirement-calculator https://www.nerdwallet.com/investing/retirement-calculator
    - WalterBright 6y ago
      > if 0.1% of your savings is in the market That means you chose not to participate in the market, not that you were prevented. In which case I can't accept grousing about not getting the gains from investing in the market. > retirement-calculator Use it. It'll show how much you need to invest monthly to retire a millionaire. Your money will do a lot better than double.
      - callalex 6y ago
        >That means you _chose_ not to participate in the market You can’t invest money you don’t have.
        WalterBright 6y ago
        May I suggest examining "if 0.1% of your savings is in the market" again? Like what happened with the other 99.9% of your savings?
        justin66 6y ago
        Without sperging out about the specific percentage: a situation where people have a tiny amount saved for retirement, and almost all their net worth in a house and car, is actually quite common.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  No. It is comparing different things. The percentage of Americans who own stocks is different that the percentage of stocks owned by americans. Say 90% of americans "own some stock" but they are dirt poor. Their share of the total stocks available could well be 1%. The rich 10% then own 99% of the market AND 90% of the population own some stock. One fact does not negate the other. Remember that the median income in the US is about 30k. If you have any sort of actual pension plan, there is a good chance you are in the top 10% in terms of net worth.
  - bluehex 6y ago
    I think you've just supported the claim that the two facts are entirely orthogonal.