6 ms·

I don't like convoluted schemes to make myself "productive". Hold a carrot on a stick in one hand, a whip in the other and feel bad about myself? That's no way

I don't like convoluted schemes to make myself "productive". Hold a carrot on a stick in one hand, a whip in the other and feel bad about myself? That's no way to live. I try to find better reasons why I do the things that I do - why isn't it exciting right now? I try to check my emotions - is something bothering me so I flee to Instagram? I actively try to enjoy small pauses to reflect on what I just did, read or learned, how to generalize, memorize and improve it. And I want to smell the flowers along the way, just like all humans have done before us.

pavel_lishin 6y ago
> I try to check my emotions - is something bothering me so I flee to Instagram? What do you do when you know what's bothering you, but it's not something you can really fix? I know why I'm stressed, but the dishes still need to be cleaned.
- UweSchmidt 6y ago
  Well, I'm currently taking some time off, working a bit on two unpaid, fun projects. I am learning some Docker, I take long walks and practice yoga. My stress level has reduced.
- grawprog 6y ago
  I try to remember that if there's nothing I fan do about something, there's no point in worrying about it. Worrying should be a call to action, the energy you spend worrying is better spent solving.the thing you're worrying about, if you can't, or can't until a later date, then it's pointless to worry. The other thing is, at least i've found anyway, i've usually been wrong about whatever i've worried about, either the severity of my worries were excessive or I ended up being blindsided by something totally different than what I was actually worried about. That being said, it's hard, I still find myself overwhelmed by things I'm worried about, so that's when I follow what UweSchmidt said and focus on hobbies and activities and stuff. But, i've found that can be kind of dangerous because, at least, me personally i end up becoming focused on these things to the detriment of the rest of my life and I still end up not washing the dishes and stuff.
- afarrell 6y ago
  Then I explicitly talk to myself about how I am choosing to endure the discomfort. If I have to go into a situation: "This is hard. This is scary. This is worth it and I am stronger than I feel." or If I really have no power over it: "This is hard. This is scary. This too shall pass and I am stronger than I feel." I find repeating the Litany against Fear to help too. -------- Sometimes I choose to distract one half of my working memory. Doing the dishes only requires visuo-spacial working memory, so I'll put on a non-mathematical podcast or call a friend. https://www.simplypsychology.org/working%20memory.html?fbclid=IwAR0ENwxL838Lz0GWERwFbw8jCMfNMC09qzMIjClCfDQ2F_m4OcR3FFY8KeM#pl https://www.simplypsychology.org/working%20memory.html?fbcli...
jhrmnn 6y ago
Agreed. I find that the original cause in most activities producing procrastination is lack of purpose. So in my case the ultimate solution to procrastination is to do only things that I find purposeful (both on short-term and long-term scale).
- arnejenssen 6y ago
  I agree. Purpose is important. However most things that are worth doing are hard. As a result we will experience moments doubt and uncertainty even when when the purpose is clear, and then it is easy to slip into procrastination. In addition for most people we also have tasks we can't avoid. Like filling out tax reports or travel claims.
  - jhrmnn 6y ago
    Your first point is very apt! Never thought about it like that, but it makes perfect sense.
LeifCarrotson 6y ago
Feeling like I accomplished nothing (or at least not what I could have accomplished) in a given day when I go to sleep due to procrastination is enough of a whip already. We all have our favorite distractions that feel like carrots at the time but are unfulfilling. My emotions are untrustworthy. If I follow them blindly I will end up addicted to dopamine and simultaneously depressed. There's nothing wrong with manufacturing your own carrots and whips to help you get somewhere you want to be.
jotm 6y ago
And sometimes you just need to hold a gun to the primitive brain and just make it do what needs to be done.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  Which is often what procrastination results in. Pushing things off until the downsides outweigh the resistance to start.
agumonkey 6y ago
Same. After a long period of my life where I was driven by unquestionned motives.. I started to realize that I stopped feeling normally happy for 20 years. It was either an unhealthy desire(fear?) for excellency, or social anxiety, or maybe a fantasy that going deeper would lead to a better life but it's not. I now do simple things, and progress slowly on stuff I like. If it's not a simple cool feeling inside I drop it.
svat 6y ago
It's great that you're sharing what works for you. And indeed, that's the ideal to aspire to: procrastination is a sub-optimal response to emotions, so if you're able to check your emotions and reflect, that's what you should do! Also, feeling bad about oneself can be counterproductive too. It's useful for every discussion of procrastination to have these reminders. But if you're able to do that, I think what it amounts to is that you don't have it so bad. For someone suffering much more from procrastination, I'd like to caution against thinking “I ought not to need convoluted schemes; I should be able to fix my procrastination by just checking my emotions…” etc. Try everything, do whatever helps. To use your example, if I know it would be good for me to do X but it's too hard and I'll go check Instagram instead, then despite knowing that it would be good for me to reflect about my emotions… that too may be too hard and I'll go check Instagram instead too. I'm speaking from experience: a long time ago I had tried blocking my usual distraction sites except at certain times of day/week, then that method somehow stopped working for me, also at some point I guess I started thinking I ought not to do it — but after starting to do it again last week (more or less: trying not to beat myself up for the times I bypassed it), I'm now able to do things like journaling to check in with my emotions when I notice myself procrastinating, etc. Every bit helps.
- UweSchmidt 6y ago
  Maybe you're not in the right spot right now, not doing what you really want to do? Maybe a new job, new scenery would be good. Maybe taking a bit of a break.
  - atian 6y ago
    Maybe all one needs is a small dose of amphetamines, and all will get back on track.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - svat 6y ago
    Actually I've already changed jobs/teams two times in the last ~2 years. But I wasn't even talking about "work" alone. I also procrastinate, to an incredible (to most people) extent, on: exercise, chores (laundry, dishes, taxes), which I guess everybody procrastinates to some extent on, and on personal fun projects (those I've told others about, and those that are only ideas in my head), and things as simple as sending a short "hey how are you" email to a very dear friend -- all with serious consequences over the last couple of decades. For instance, when you look forward with eagerness and anticipation all week to doing some particular thing on the weekend, and then when the time comes you just scroll Twitter all day for two days in a row. Basically anything I wish my future self would do: my future self doesn't seem to like getting messages from its past self :-) Yes the reason for procrastination can often be some kind of "not wanting to do it", but it can also be perfectionism (wanting it too much / to do it to a very high standard), counterproductive habits/addictions, and it turns out on reflection (checking in with emotions), that it is even possible to be "uncomfortably excited" and not know how to handle that discomfort. Whether and how much you procrastinate is a function of both your motivation and your basic efficacy (I guess "executive dysfunction" is a clinical version of this problem) -- or to put it another way, it's a function of not just "value" but also "expectancy" and "impulsiveness" in the procrastination equation (see e.g. https://alexvermeer.com/getmotivated/ https://alexvermeer.com/getmotivated/), and it's OK (and good!) to try addressing in whatever order, trying any possible solution and experimenting until you find what works for you. My intention with my previous comment was simply to highlight that there are degrees of procrastination, and to warn those who may need it against avoiding solutions that may help them (out of "this isn't the ideal way" perfectionism). It was not my intention to go into detail about myself, but I've done that here (thanks to your well-meant advice and) to make the point again.
afarrell 6y ago
ADHDer here. I've found that the core of having a productive day is: 1. Take care of my health: sleep, exercise, food, medication, socially-bonding conversation. 2. Connect to Why -- That is why a good Product Manager so valuable for programming and a clear picture of my audience curiosity so valuable for writing. 3. Recognize signs of success -- Thats what makes Test-Driven Development so valuable for programming and Question Driven Drafting so valuable for writing. 4. Get into rhythm which balances focus and exploratory de-focus -- The pomodoro technique is useful here. Also, talking with Test Engineers. I like what Jocko Willink says; Accountability is a crutch: useful to notice and endure a problem, but something you should then you should then drive you to find the cause of the problem and incorporate a fix. That fix is part of building your personal discipline. I think the mistake a lot of people make with discipline is that they imagine it harshly -- like a drill sergeant whipping you into shape. But whips only make sense to enslave someone to do something they don't want to do. Healthy discipline feels like something effortful which nurtures you. Your mind is a garden of your own to terrace and irrigate, to plant and to graft, to water and weed and repair, -- and yes, to artificially fertilize if needed -- so that whatever the weather, out of your impulses will grow the actions which bear fruit according to what you truly value.
- ruricolist 6y ago
  What is question driven drafting?
  - afarrell 6y ago
    A technique for writing getting words onto paper when you've got writers' block. Step 1: Ask a question. Step 2: Give the first answer that comes to mind, including "I don't know." Step 3: Ask a follow-up question like "how do you know that?" or "what makes this hard to know?" or "really? Why is that?" or "why does that matter?" Step 4: Answer it and just keep going like this for 20 minutes until you've gotten used to typing and have started to picture an audience that is curious about the topic. I've only used it for nonfiction, but I imagine that it could work for fiction too if you put a video of a campfire on.
pharke 6y ago
This may seem like a convoluted scheme but I think it does have solid grounding. Not everyone has developed the same capability for internal reward and not everyone can arrive at this through rational means. Our limbic system is the source of this and the most powerful way to program it is through association. If one can muster enough self-discipline to stick to a regimen as outlined in the article then they should be able to adjust their cost function quite a bit. It does seem a bit clinical but it's one of the few ways we have of communicating with our autonomic systems. Repeated behaviour, association, physical stimulus, and diet. It makes for a crude language but it's a pretty decent safeguard against half-baked meddling.

pavel_lishin 6y ago

> I try to check my emotions - is something bothering me so I flee to Instagram? What do you do when you know what's bothering you, but it's not something you can really fix? I know why I'm stressed, but the dishes still need to be cleaned.

UweSchmidt 6y ago
Well, I'm currently taking some time off, working a bit on two unpaid, fun projects. I am learning some Docker, I take long walks and practice yoga. My stress level has reduced.
grawprog 6y ago
I try to remember that if there's nothing I fan do about something, there's no point in worrying about it. Worrying should be a call to action, the energy you spend worrying is better spent solving.the thing you're worrying about, if you can't, or can't until a later date, then it's pointless to worry. The other thing is, at least i've found anyway, i've usually been wrong about whatever i've worried about, either the severity of my worries were excessive or I ended up being blindsided by something totally different than what I was actually worried about. That being said, it's hard, I still find myself overwhelmed by things I'm worried about, so that's when I follow what UweSchmidt said and focus on hobbies and activities and stuff. But, i've found that can be kind of dangerous because, at least, me personally i end up becoming focused on these things to the detriment of the rest of my life and I still end up not washing the dishes and stuff.
afarrell 6y ago
Then I explicitly talk to myself about how I am choosing to endure the discomfort. If I have to go into a situation: "This is hard. This is scary. This is worth it and I am stronger than I feel." or If I really have no power over it: "This is hard. This is scary. This too shall pass and I am stronger than I feel." I find repeating the Litany against Fear to help too. -------- Sometimes I choose to distract one half of my working memory. Doing the dishes only requires visuo-spacial working memory, so I'll put on a non-mathematical podcast or call a friend. https://www.simplypsychology.org/working%20memory.html?fbclid=IwAR0ENwxL838Lz0GWERwFbw8jCMfNMC09qzMIjClCfDQ2F_m4OcR3FFY8KeM#pl https://www.simplypsychology.org/working%20memory.html?fbcli...

jhrmnn 6y ago

Agreed. I find that the original cause in most activities producing procrastination is lack of purpose. So in my case the ultimate solution to procrastination is to do only things that I find purposeful (both on short-term and long-term scale).

arnejenssen 6y ago
I agree. Purpose is important. However most things that are worth doing are hard. As a result we will experience moments doubt and uncertainty even when when the purpose is clear, and then it is easy to slip into procrastination. In addition for most people we also have tasks we can't avoid. Like filling out tax reports or travel claims.
- jhrmnn 6y ago
  Your first point is very apt! Never thought about it like that, but it makes perfect sense.

LeifCarrotson 6y ago

Feeling like I accomplished nothing (or at least not what I could have accomplished) in a given day when I go to sleep due to procrastination is enough of a whip already. We all have our favorite distractions that feel like carrots at the time but are unfulfilling. My emotions are untrustworthy. If I follow them blindly I will end up addicted to dopamine and simultaneously depressed. There's nothing wrong with manufacturing your own carrots and whips to help you get somewhere you want to be.

jotm 6y ago

And sometimes you just need to hold a gun to the primitive brain and just make it do what needs to be done.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
Which is often what procrastination results in. Pushing things off until the downsides outweigh the resistance to start.

agumonkey 6y ago

Same. After a long period of my life where I was driven by unquestionned motives.. I started to realize that I stopped feeling normally happy for 20 years. It was either an unhealthy desire(fear?) for excellency, or social anxiety, or maybe a fantasy that going deeper would lead to a better life but it's not. I now do simple things, and progress slowly on stuff I like. If it's not a simple cool feeling inside I drop it.

svat 6y ago

It's great that you're sharing what works for you. And indeed, that's the ideal to aspire to: procrastination is a sub-optimal response to emotions, so if you're able to check your emotions and reflect, that's what you should do! Also, feeling bad about oneself can be counterproductive too. It's useful for every discussion of procrastination to have these reminders. But if you're able to do that, I think what it amounts to is that you don't have it so bad. For someone suffering much more from procrastination, I'd like to caution against thinking “I ought not to need convoluted schemes; I should be able to fix my procrastination by just checking my emotions…” etc. Try everything, do whatever helps. To use your example, if I know it would be good for me to do X but it's too hard and I'll go check Instagram instead, then despite knowing that it would be good for me to reflect about my emotions… that too may be too hard and I'll go check Instagram instead too. I'm speaking from experience: a long time ago I had tried blocking my usual distraction sites except at certain times of day/week, then that method somehow stopped working for me, also at some point I guess I started thinking I ought not to do it — but after starting to do it again last week (more or less: trying not to beat myself up for the times I bypassed it), I'm now able to do things like journaling to check in with my emotions when I notice myself procrastinating, etc. Every bit helps.

UweSchmidt 6y ago
Maybe you're not in the right spot right now, not doing what you really want to do? Maybe a new job, new scenery would be good. Maybe taking a bit of a break.
- atian 6y ago
  Maybe all one needs is a small dose of amphetamines, and all will get back on track.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- svat 6y ago
  Actually I've already changed jobs/teams two times in the last ~2 years. But I wasn't even talking about "work" alone. I also procrastinate, to an incredible (to most people) extent, on: exercise, chores (laundry, dishes, taxes), which I guess everybody procrastinates to some extent on, and on personal fun projects (those I've told others about, and those that are only ideas in my head), and things as simple as sending a short "hey how are you" email to a very dear friend -- all with serious consequences over the last couple of decades. For instance, when you look forward with eagerness and anticipation all week to doing some particular thing on the weekend, and then when the time comes you just scroll Twitter all day for two days in a row. Basically anything I wish my future self would do: my future self doesn't seem to like getting messages from its past self :-) Yes the reason for procrastination can often be some kind of "not wanting to do it", but it can also be perfectionism (wanting it too much / to do it to a very high standard), counterproductive habits/addictions, and it turns out on reflection (checking in with emotions), that it is even possible to be "uncomfortably excited" and not know how to handle that discomfort. Whether and how much you procrastinate is a function of both your motivation and your basic efficacy (I guess "executive dysfunction" is a clinical version of this problem) -- or to put it another way, it's a function of not just "value" but also "expectancy" and "impulsiveness" in the procrastination equation (see e.g. https://alexvermeer.com/getmotivated/ https://alexvermeer.com/getmotivated/), and it's OK (and good!) to try addressing in whatever order, trying any possible solution and experimenting until you find what works for you. My intention with my previous comment was simply to highlight that there are degrees of procrastination, and to warn those who may need it against avoiding solutions that may help them (out of "this isn't the ideal way" perfectionism). It was not my intention to go into detail about myself, but I've done that here (thanks to your well-meant advice and) to make the point again.

afarrell 6y ago

ADHDer here. I've found that the core of having a productive day is: 1. Take care of my health: sleep, exercise, food, medication, socially-bonding conversation. 2. Connect to Why -- That is why a good Product Manager so valuable for programming and a clear picture of my audience curiosity so valuable for writing. 3. Recognize signs of success -- Thats what makes Test-Driven Development so valuable for programming and Question Driven Drafting so valuable for writing. 4. Get into rhythm which balances focus and exploratory de-focus -- The pomodoro technique is useful here. Also, talking with Test Engineers. I like what Jocko Willink says; Accountability is a crutch: useful to notice and endure a problem, but something you should then you should then drive you to find the cause of the problem and incorporate a fix. That fix is part of building your personal discipline. I think the mistake a lot of people make with discipline is that they imagine it harshly -- like a drill sergeant whipping you into shape. But whips only make sense to enslave someone to do something they don't want to do. Healthy discipline feels like something effortful which nurtures you. Your mind is a garden of your own to terrace and irrigate, to plant and to graft, to water and weed and repair, -- and yes, to artificially fertilize if needed -- so that whatever the weather, out of your impulses will grow the actions which bear fruit according to what you truly value.

ruricolist 6y ago
What is question driven drafting?
- afarrell 6y ago
  A technique for writing getting words onto paper when you've got writers' block. Step 1: Ask a question. Step 2: Give the first answer that comes to mind, including "I don't know." Step 3: Ask a follow-up question like "how do you know that?" or "what makes this hard to know?" or "really? Why is that?" or "why does that matter?" Step 4: Answer it and just keep going like this for 20 minutes until you've gotten used to typing and have started to picture an audience that is curious about the topic. I've only used it for nonfiction, but I imagine that it could work for fiction too if you put a video of a campfire on.

pharke 6y ago

This may seem like a convoluted scheme but I think it does have solid grounding. Not everyone has developed the same capability for internal reward and not everyone can arrive at this through rational means. Our limbic system is the source of this and the most powerful way to program it is through association. If one can muster enough self-discipline to stick to a regimen as outlined in the article then they should be able to adjust their cost function quite a bit. It does seem a bit clinical but it's one of the few ways we have of communicating with our autonomic systems. Repeated behaviour, association, physical stimulus, and diet. It makes for a crude language but it's a pretty decent safeguard against half-baked meddling.