5 ms·

This line from the article really caught my attention: > In sum, Wolf says, the paper reading brain has better memory, more imagination, immersion, and patienc

by sq_ 6y ago

This line from the article really caught my attention: > In sum, Wolf says, the paper reading brain has better memory, more imagination, immersion, and patience, and more knowledge than the screen reading brain. I've been torn for years about how to feel about my reading and writing habits. I love reading physical books, especially when I'm trying to develop a deep understanding of some topic, and I have, at times, made concerted efforts to take notes on paper and keep my daily schedules and to-do lists in notebooks. But at the same time, I love reading the articles and other types of content that are surfaced by users here and on other sites. I can't be certain (could just be confirmation bias of some sort), but I personally find that what Wolf said in that line is true. When I read and write on paper, I feel like I have a deeper connection to what's there and am more able to reason about it. Reading and writing on a computer feels more detached, like I'm just consuming the content without understanding or just dumping out ideas without thinking.

xwdv 6y ago
That’s mostly because you’ve become conditioned to experience screen reading as mindless content consumption and dumps.
culturestate 6y ago
I don't notice much of a difference with reading, but I do feel the same way about writing; digital todo lists or notes just don't work for me. I used to think this was about the act of writing in itself - that doing it by hand forced me to be more conscious of the information - but writing with e.g. an Apple Pencil on an iPad is just as useless as typing. I'd really like to figure this out because I love the idea of searchable notes that are available anywhere, any time, and aren't dependent on a dead tree for their longevity, but I haven't found the solution yet. I have a theory that it might be related to the fundamental experience (friction, texture) of a pen and paper, so I'm considering a reMarkable[1] but I'm wary of obsolescence. 1. https://remarkable.com https://remarkable.com
- dwaltrip 6y ago
  The single-purposeness and simplicity of non-digital tools is important, I think. Paper doesn't have a web browser hovering behind that icon, waiting to be easily clicked at any moment. Our brain knows that infinite oceans of content and stimuli are lurking there.
  - tjpnz 6y ago
    As someone with ADHD I can absolutely identify with that. I've tried ebooks in the past but due to distractions tend to come away with very little comprehension of what I've just read. Dead tree books are a lifesaver, I'm able to completely unplug and can consume multiple chapters in a single sitting.
    - stevewillows 6y ago
      It'd be worth trying out a proper ereader. I picked up a Kobo Libra so I could get back into reading and away from audiobooks a bit. I've read studies that the brain can't tell between the two, but I was halfway through an audiobook recently and realized I had no clue what was going on. I bought this as my summer project -- basically, 'Steve, let's retrain your brain to focus on long form reading again.' What I like about an ereader / eink is that its not some flashy screen with a bunch of stuff going on in the background like an iPad or whatever. The screens look great and have an amazing refresh rate these days. The Libra is a 7" screen, which I figured should be good enough to read PDF'd magazines in landscape -- and I was right [1]! This uses KOReader [2]. While the images themselves aren't the same as a color magazine/screen, it's good enough. For epubs everything is exactly as you'd expect. With my own ADHD, the initial get-down-to-reading is tough, but I've noticed that it is getting easier with each session. And it is also getting to the point where I am looking forward to reading. [1] https://i.imgur.com/9hncMyI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/9hncMyI.jpg [2] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295612 https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295612
      - dorchadas 6y ago
        I still find a huge difference between ereader and physical book myself. I have a Kindle Fire, which I keep constantly in airplane mode and use no apps except Scribd on, but I find myself reading much faster on it, and also remembering much less of what I actually do read. And I can barely read pdfs on my mac, even with airplane mode and other distraction-reducing things turned on. I just don't like the format. I've come to realize I truly do best recall from physical books, and if I want to learn something new, I'll likely buy physical, though I might use pdfs for a while to test quality.
- baxtr 6y ago
  Same here. I’m so much more productive whenever I write down my todos on a simple sheet of paper. I have a very elaborated online todo list. But still, paper works more effectively. I have no clue why and it frustrates me
  - kd5bjo 6y ago
    I think part of it is that paper is completely unopinionated: all it’s doing is holding whatever marks you make for later. That means your brain has to do the work of deciding what marks to make and their meaning; the more work your brain does on any given task, the more memories there are for you to latch onto when remembering.
  - malloryerik 6y ago
    When you write a note on paper you've made a unique physical object and maybe that fits better into our memories somehow, for example by inhabiting a space that we can recall? Whereas digital data appears to break the mental physical space rule that a thing exists in a certain place? As for notes on a phone or computer, they've disappeared into another dimension and are harder to think of as being "at hand." We can't really use our spatial memory on digital stuff, I'm guessing. A Kindle might be better since your current page in your current book opens as soon as you wake it up, more like a physical object and less like something that disappears into and reappears out of a magician's bag. I find with my Kindle and ebooks in general that I'd really like some minimal but ever-present indication of my place in the book, even a single pixel progress bar, maybe in part because I yearn for some kind of spatial-object relationship with the book. With pen and paper notes I've got a 3d object that I've altered. Maybe it feels more present in the same way that cash on a table feels more like "real money" than the credit card next to it.
- sq_ 6y ago
  I've also thought about trying out a reMarkable! I'm a little too cash-strapped to justify it these days, but maybe sometime in the future. I agree with other commenters here that a lot of it could be conditioning, but I've also found, like you, that even handwriting on devices is lacking compared to doing it with pen and paper. My personal theory is that it might have something to do with the ability to reason in a more spatially oriented way when we use pen and paper to write things down.
aspectmin 6y ago
Agreed. I still remember best when I take notes on paper. (I was a voracious reader as a kid, still read a lot now). I bring notebooks to meetings and write notes. It helps my recall immensely. I've tried so many other todo and note apps it isn't funny. None of them really worked as well as me keeping lists on paper of things to do: A list of what I want to accomplish today, a list of key things I need to do, and a big sparkfile (half on computer, half on paper) of things I want to remember.
- sq_ 6y ago
  Same here on bringing notebooks to meetings. I didn't for a long time, but I picked it back up recently at the urging of a friend, and I've found myself really enjoying it. Doing something with my hands while in meetings really helps me to stay focused, and I've definitely found that I remember better.
lenkite 6y ago
I believe this is simple conditioning. There are many people like me who learn better from ebooks, online-papers and pdf's rather than dead-tree books. We can annotate, attach notes, add/remove highlights and most importantly: search without needing a painful index and simultaneously study 2 or more books on the same subject with little trouble in shifting context. With paper books, all this is very painful - too much jugglery needed.
- kd5bjo 6y ago
  To each his own, I guess. With the exception of search, I can do all of those things more easily in a physical book than electronically — I find that the physical motion and context helps me remember things. I replace searching with maintaining my own comprehensive index. It forces me to think about what I’ve read and consider the situations in which it might be useful so that I can file it away correctly. I read fewer things this way, but they stick in my memory better, for probably a similar net result.
  - readarticle 6y ago
    I wonder if there’s a correlation between usage of debuggers vs printf, and the different strategies you all have taken towards reading.
- sq_ 6y ago
  I don't disagree that it could be conditioning. You make really good points about the benefits of doing things digitally. At some point I really need to spend a few months going all-in on doing it digitally and see if I can make it work for me. Definitely an area where everyone works differently and it takes serious effort to figure out what's best for you personally.
  - dr_zoidberg 6y ago
    I think there's a bit of a problem when directly taking content thought for a specific medium, like physical books, and transporting it unchanged to another media, like ebooks. Quick example: when you're reading a book, you have always two pages available to yourself to read. When you read an ebook, you have one, or part of one page on the screent at a time. That doesn't lend itself to going back and re-reading. A physical book has the chance to keep our attention on a larger scale than an ebook. But lets twist that example. When I was in primary school, one of my brightest classmates had a severely impaired vision. He'd had to practically stick his face into a book or sheet of paper to read. Probably a large screen with adjustable fonts, and good contrast, would help him read. I think we need to find a new balance to how we consume written media. But I wouldn't cry that books are disappearing, rather I think "old books" do not adjust so well to screens, and that "screen books" lend themselves to ways that old-written-media couldn't do. We need a new balance to get the best from both worlds, and have an improved medium to read from.

by sq_ 6y ago

xwdv 6y ago

That’s mostly because you’ve become conditioned to experience screen reading as mindless content consumption and dumps.

culturestate 6y ago

I don't notice much of a difference with reading, but I do feel the same way about writing; digital todo lists or notes just don't work for me. I used to think this was about the act of writing in itself - that doing it by hand forced me to be more conscious of the information - but writing with e.g. an Apple Pencil on an iPad is just as useless as typing. I'd really like to figure this out because I love the idea of searchable notes that are available anywhere, any time, and aren't dependent on a dead tree for their longevity, but I haven't found the solution yet. I have a theory that it might be related to the fundamental experience (friction, texture) of a pen and paper, so I'm considering a reMarkable[1] but I'm wary of obsolescence. 1. https://remarkable.com https://remarkable.com

dwaltrip 6y ago
The single-purposeness and simplicity of non-digital tools is important, I think. Paper doesn't have a web browser hovering behind that icon, waiting to be easily clicked at any moment. Our brain knows that infinite oceans of content and stimuli are lurking there.
- tjpnz 6y ago
  As someone with ADHD I can absolutely identify with that. I've tried ebooks in the past but due to distractions tend to come away with very little comprehension of what I've just read. Dead tree books are a lifesaver, I'm able to completely unplug and can consume multiple chapters in a single sitting.
  - stevewillows 6y ago
    It'd be worth trying out a proper ereader. I picked up a Kobo Libra so I could get back into reading and away from audiobooks a bit. I've read studies that the brain can't tell between the two, but I was halfway through an audiobook recently and realized I had no clue what was going on. I bought this as my summer project -- basically, 'Steve, let's retrain your brain to focus on long form reading again.' What I like about an ereader / eink is that its not some flashy screen with a bunch of stuff going on in the background like an iPad or whatever. The screens look great and have an amazing refresh rate these days. The Libra is a 7" screen, which I figured should be good enough to read PDF'd magazines in landscape -- and I was right [1]! This uses KOReader [2]. While the images themselves aren't the same as a color magazine/screen, it's good enough. For epubs everything is exactly as you'd expect. With my own ADHD, the initial get-down-to-reading is tough, but I've noticed that it is getting easier with each session. And it is also getting to the point where I am looking forward to reading. [1] https://i.imgur.com/9hncMyI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/9hncMyI.jpg [2] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295612 https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295612
    - dorchadas 6y ago
      I still find a huge difference between ereader and physical book myself. I have a Kindle Fire, which I keep constantly in airplane mode and use no apps except Scribd on, but I find myself reading much faster on it, and also remembering much less of what I actually do read. And I can barely read pdfs on my mac, even with airplane mode and other distraction-reducing things turned on. I just don't like the format. I've come to realize I truly do best recall from physical books, and if I want to learn something new, I'll likely buy physical, though I might use pdfs for a while to test quality.
baxtr 6y ago
Same here. I’m so much more productive whenever I write down my todos on a simple sheet of paper. I have a very elaborated online todo list. But still, paper works more effectively. I have no clue why and it frustrates me
- kd5bjo 6y ago
  I think part of it is that paper is completely unopinionated: all it’s doing is holding whatever marks you make for later. That means your brain has to do the work of deciding what marks to make and their meaning; the more work your brain does on any given task, the more memories there are for you to latch onto when remembering.
- malloryerik 6y ago
  When you write a note on paper you've made a unique physical object and maybe that fits better into our memories somehow, for example by inhabiting a space that we can recall? Whereas digital data appears to break the mental physical space rule that a thing exists in a certain place? As for notes on a phone or computer, they've disappeared into another dimension and are harder to think of as being "at hand." We can't really use our spatial memory on digital stuff, I'm guessing. A Kindle might be better since your current page in your current book opens as soon as you wake it up, more like a physical object and less like something that disappears into and reappears out of a magician's bag. I find with my Kindle and ebooks in general that I'd really like some minimal but ever-present indication of my place in the book, even a single pixel progress bar, maybe in part because I yearn for some kind of spatial-object relationship with the book. With pen and paper notes I've got a 3d object that I've altered. Maybe it feels more present in the same way that cash on a table feels more like "real money" than the credit card next to it.
sq_ 6y ago
I've also thought about trying out a reMarkable! I'm a little too cash-strapped to justify it these days, but maybe sometime in the future. I agree with other commenters here that a lot of it could be conditioning, but I've also found, like you, that even handwriting on devices is lacking compared to doing it with pen and paper. My personal theory is that it might have something to do with the ability to reason in a more spatially oriented way when we use pen and paper to write things down.

aspectmin 6y ago

Agreed. I still remember best when I take notes on paper. (I was a voracious reader as a kid, still read a lot now). I bring notebooks to meetings and write notes. It helps my recall immensely. I've tried so many other todo and note apps it isn't funny. None of them really worked as well as me keeping lists on paper of things to do: A list of what I want to accomplish today, a list of key things I need to do, and a big sparkfile (half on computer, half on paper) of things I want to remember.

sq_ 6y ago
Same here on bringing notebooks to meetings. I didn't for a long time, but I picked it back up recently at the urging of a friend, and I've found myself really enjoying it. Doing something with my hands while in meetings really helps me to stay focused, and I've definitely found that I remember better.

lenkite 6y ago

I believe this is simple conditioning. There are many people like me who learn better from ebooks, online-papers and pdf's rather than dead-tree books. We can annotate, attach notes, add/remove highlights and most importantly: search without needing a painful index and simultaneously study 2 or more books on the same subject with little trouble in shifting context. With paper books, all this is very painful - too much jugglery needed.

kd5bjo 6y ago
To each his own, I guess. With the exception of search, I can do all of those things more easily in a physical book than electronically — I find that the physical motion and context helps me remember things. I replace searching with maintaining my own comprehensive index. It forces me to think about what I’ve read and consider the situations in which it might be useful so that I can file it away correctly. I read fewer things this way, but they stick in my memory better, for probably a similar net result.
- readarticle 6y ago
  I wonder if there’s a correlation between usage of debuggers vs printf, and the different strategies you all have taken towards reading.
sq_ 6y ago
I don't disagree that it could be conditioning. You make really good points about the benefits of doing things digitally. At some point I really need to spend a few months going all-in on doing it digitally and see if I can make it work for me. Definitely an area where everyone works differently and it takes serious effort to figure out what's best for you personally.
- dr_zoidberg 6y ago
  I think there's a bit of a problem when directly taking content thought for a specific medium, like physical books, and transporting it unchanged to another media, like ebooks. Quick example: when you're reading a book, you have always two pages available to yourself to read. When you read an ebook, you have one, or part of one page on the screent at a time. That doesn't lend itself to going back and re-reading. A physical book has the chance to keep our attention on a larger scale than an ebook. But lets twist that example. When I was in primary school, one of my brightest classmates had a severely impaired vision. He'd had to practically stick his face into a book or sheet of paper to read. Probably a large screen with adjustable fonts, and good contrast, would help him read. I think we need to find a new balance to how we consume written media. But I wouldn't cry that books are disappearing, rather I think "old books" do not adjust so well to screens, and that "screen books" lend themselves to ways that old-written-media couldn't do. We need a new balance to get the best from both worlds, and have an improved medium to read from.