24 ms·

Getting Back to Work

203 points by xoxoy 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
KKKKkkkk1 6y ago
Charlie Munger on Elon Musk: “I don’t want my personal life to be [around] a bunch of guys who are living in a state of delusion, who happen occasionally to win big,” Munger told Daily Journal’s shareholders. “I want the prudent person.” https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/19/charlie-munger-ideal-hire-wouldnt-be-someone-like-elon-musk.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/19/charlie-munger-ideal-hire-wo...
- Phr0ztByte 6y ago
  And from the same article "is bold and brilliant, and he swings for the fences." and ... "People like that get some remarkable results,” Munger continued. “Sometimes they get some quick failures. I haven’t the faintest idea how Elon Musk will turn out, but he has a considerable chance of success and considerable chance of failure. He seems to like it that way."
  - holler 6y ago
    > but he has a considerable chance of success... Wait a second, by all measures this billionaire is _already_ successful, no? How could anyone claim the contrary?
    - ebcode 6y ago
      The success he's referring to could be the success of Elon's vision, rather than Elon himself.
    - gherkinnn 6y ago
      Depending on how it ends. Will he be reduced to a mad man shouting on twitter, with nothing left to his name but failed enterprises? Or will he carve the moon in his image?
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Money on that scale is of a very different character to money as normal people understand it. It’s more like being a medieval king: to the extent that you’re the shareholder, your wealth is the “nation’s” wealth; your guards are paid for out of your pocket; and you can be drawn into conflicts that lead to you losing everything. It’s that latter part that I’d be worried about with Musk. He took a very big gamble with SpaceX, and if one more launch had failed in the early years, he would’ve become a mere footnote on someone else’s Wikipedia page. The concern is he might make similar gambles in future.
- LudwigNagasena 6y ago
  A guy who consistently founds or joins successful companies is not someone I would call “who happen occasionally to win big”. He founded Zip2 that was acquired by AltaVista, he joined PayPal that was acquired by eBay, he joined Tesla, he founded SpaceX. His record is stellar. Of course it is understandable that Berkshire Hathaway wouldn’t hire anyone like Musk. They are as far from tech and VC as any investor could ever be. I admire Buffet and Munger, but the guys are 90 years old, I honestly couldn’t care less what they think about IT industry.
  - mkagenius 6y ago
    > I admire Buffet and Munger, but the guys are 90 years old, Well, then you need to tell me your age, to know whether I should care about what you have written above.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Not OP, but mid 30s and I’m getting a bit tired of folks who are out of touch because of their age believing their past experience can extrapolate a future they don’t understand (Buffett in particular has done a very poor job understanding and investing in tech). It’s terribly ironic that they think Musk is just lucky considering Munger and Buffett were able to invest during one of the most prosperous times in American history. Admit you’re passed your prime and move on. Make way for innovators instead of valuing reading a 10-K and preferring conservative companies you believe are undervalued, or distressed companies you’re going to try to twist their arm into a deal (as Buffett did during the GFC with banks).
      - rdgthree 6y ago
        Your comment and OP's comment are a bit silly given the context. Munger didn't say anything controversial here. He was asked a question about Elon and answered by saying he prefers less risk. He specifically pointed out that Elon shouldn't be underestimated while saying it. Elon doesn't just like to take risks, he would probably agree with being described as "risk obsessed". If your investment strategy is risk aversion and stability, you should avoid Elon. That isn't an outdated perspective, nor is it arrogant in any way - Elon would probably agree with it. The last sentence was an exaggeration of his bias when evaluating any operator to drive his point home clearly. It's fairly difficult to imagine that Charlie Munger thinks Elon Musk has just gotten lucky for his entire career, and unsurprisingly he isn't saying that in this example. I'm all for fairly criticizing out-of-touch arrogance, but I can't see it being the case here.
- rdgthree 6y ago
  Taking this quote out of context is impressively dishonest. It would be incredibly inaccurate to describe Elon's history of winning big as "occasional", and for that same reason it would be incredibly surprising if Charlie Munger described Elon's career this way with no qualifiers. Not surprisingly, he didn't. This quote is the end of a much more nuanced statement to conclude the point that he generally prefers to invest in operators who take less risk. Regardless of your opinion on Elon, this sort of manipulation of reality damages the discourse. It's not helping anyone.
  - KKKKkkkk1 6y ago
    The quote speaks for itself. Please do not stoop to ad hominems.
    - aaron695 6y ago
      We can listen to the quote here, and it's not about Elon at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Oi3esiry8&feature=youtu.be&t=3180 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Oi3esiry8&feature=youtu.be... And to me, he is only attributing a quote to Elon, nothing else, but the audience takes it a different way. Regardless the quote above is not about Elon.
- centimeter 6y ago
  > a bunch of guys who are living in a state of delusion Sounds like the politicians and assorted apparatchiks who still think, or claim to think, that this virus is orders of magnitude worse than it actually is.
- alasdair_ 6y ago
  This is the same Charlie Munger who backed airline stocks when everyone else was dumping them, outside only to finally realize how terrible they were far too late and finally dump them weeks after the rest of the market did. His opinion is absolutely valid, but it’s not like his track record is any more exceptional than Musk’s.
  - ckastner 6y ago
    > It’s not like his track record is any more exceptional than Musk’s. Everyone makes mistakes, but to conclude that Berkshire Hathaways' track record is "not ... more exceptional than Musk's" is beyond folly. Their success over decades is unparalleled. Furthermore, Berkshire on principle plays the long game. They rarely act on short-term events. Tesla was also badly affected by the Covid-19 measures. The Fremont plant is still closed. You would have expected Munger to dump airlines sooner; but would you also have expected Musk to dump his TSLA stock, too? For some people, being an investor means looking at a time horizon of decades, not months.
mnm1 6y ago
It's obviously essential, critical work to fill up giant parking lots with new cars no one is going to buy. That's a great reason to resume work during the pandemic. I can't believe they even got shut down in the first place. If there aren't at least ten teslas for every American that can't afford them, we have failed as a society.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Hasn’t Tesla already presold most of its vehicles?
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    I don't believe so. I had no trouble finding mine on the lot late last year, and there were plenty to choose from. It is possible the Y is momentarily sold out, but the other models should [or would be] easily available.
- urda 6y ago
  A luxury vehicle manufacturer is not essential. Elon is rushing things so he can make a buck, at the costs (and possibly lives) of his workers.
  - urda 6y ago
    The fact that HN would rather downvote this comment and is OK with people getting killed is absolutely disgusting. I've literally had both friends and family die because of bad actors like Elon. HN you disappoint me, but I guess it's comes as no shock when you're obsessed with VCs and making a buck, instead of trying to help others.
- techntoke 6y ago
  It looks like you got downvoted. There is a certain group of people that if they catch you outside without a mask or if you say publicly people should return to work, they'll post pictures of you on reddit and advocate for your murder, but as soon as Elon Musk says people should return to work they will immediately defend him because they think he is a God that is faultless.
otakucode 6y ago
What I didn't see mentioned that concerns me (although I admit it might be a concern born purely out of ignorance): No mention of whether employees would be provided with a minimum of 2 weeks paid sick leave should they show symptoms of COVID-19. Any employee who has a reasonable chance of becoming ill with COVID-19 at their work, and who does not also have a minimum of 2 weeks paid leave, should, by all logic I can think of, refuse to return to work. In a situation with no paid sick leave or less than 2 weeks of paid sick leave, the options are mostly reduced to 2: First, return to work, get sick, then get fired for absence while off sick. Or, second, remain home and get fired for absence while remaining healthy. I suppose there is the third options, the danger-face economic kamikaze model that most Americans will likely be expected to endure - go to work, hope you don't get sick, get sick anyway, get fired for absence. Then you can't even file for unemployment. There is no winning play.
- NamTaf 6y ago
  "There is no winning play." That's by design. There's no winning play for the line worker, because providing one reduces the returns for the investors. If it wasn't already obvious before this, the corona response by the US has thrown into sharp relief how stacked the deck is - from top to bottom - against the common worker.
  - sangnoir 6y ago
    I mean, the name of the economic system is pretty blatant. "Capitalism" is exactly what it says on the tin, and it's pretty unbridled in the US, to its own detriment (long-term), IMO.
- markvdb 6y ago
  Fundamental flaws in US health care and worker protection exposed. That's what this is. Compare to the system in my native Belgium: - a month of 100% paid sick leave, paid by the employer - followed by five months 60% of wage in sick leave, paid by social security - protected from redundancy within this 6 month period - if made redundant afterwards while still ill after 6 months, obligation for the employer to pay (significant) damages - 60% of last wage sick pay afterwards, capped to a generous maximum, unlimited in time as long as the illness lasts, paid by social security - high quality healthcare regardless of employment status - jobless benefits when healthy without a job, unlimited in time, recently made somewhat degressive This makes for less of a power imbalance between employers and employees. Huge short and medium term social stabiliser. Certainly not without its flaws, but great to have in place during these times of severe economic crisis.
dvt 6y ago
The full complaint is here: https://www.scribd.com/document/460681532/Tesla-v-Alameda-County-Complaint-Copy#from_embed https://www.scribd.com/document/460681532/Tesla-v-Alameda-Co...
- jeffbee 6y ago
  This is a pretty broad argument, that if there exists, somewhere, any jurisdiction that would permit Tesla to operate their factory, but Alameda County does not permit it, then the Equal Protection clause has been violated.
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    The initial claim is broad. ...but the application can be pretty narrow as neighboring jurisdictions are allowing people back to work.
54351623 6y ago
Bold move to extort public officials with threats to move a factory you're attempting to fully automate and a few hundred white collar positions to a state where your main bargaining chip is jobs when you possess less than 5% market share, a vertical monopoly and a luxury product in a crashing market. Excited to see how this one turns out.
- samsonradu 6y ago
  Indeed, looking at the bigger picture I can't help seeing the absurdity of it. For all the praising of Tesla cars, which might very well be founded, it's just a freaking car in a market where demand fell off a cliff.
  - badRNG 6y ago
    I have to wonder if these actions by Musk are going to hurt the brand image of Tesla. Sure people buy the car because it has cool gimmick features and is electric, but when you buy a car for $30k+ there's a reason you spent that kind of money: the car is a form of self expression (whether one would like to admit it or not.) When one buys a Tesla, it indicates that they are with the times, both technologically and socially.
    - otachack 6y ago
      Didn't Tesla push the boundaries on EV, though, whereas traditional car companies were just fine with continuing production of gas based vehicles? I guess there were hybrids but it felt like Toyota was the only big player there.
      - badRNG 6y ago
        Chevy was also a big EV/hybrid player in the mid to late '00s. I think the sort of individual that buys an expensive vehicle to, at least in part, broadcast that they are an environmentally-conscious person would be turned off by a company strong-arming a county into relaxing regulations, especially when such deregulation is perceived to put that company's workers at risk. While the facts of what public policy is best can be debated, it seems inevitable that Tesla's brand will suffer from this.
propter_hoc 6y ago
Suing the county, really? There's hundreds of thousands, probably millions of businesses that have been shuttered by COVID-19, and yet, of course, who should it be but the constant media circus that is Tesla--whose hit is miniscule compared to the restaurants, hotels and other businesses that actually can't earn revenue--that decides to publicly take it to the courts. I truly hate to say this, but it really smacks of a solipsistic kind of attitude: that Tesla's problems matter more than other companies', and that anything that gets in its way, whether pandemics, short-sellers or lawmakers, are just an irritant.
- centimeter 6y ago
  Most businesses aren't in a position to sue the county. If Tesla sues and wins, those other businesses will benefit as well. I'm not sure what you're objecting to here.
  - propter_hoc 6y ago
    My point is that this is yet another case where it is Tesla who is in the news for some controversial conflict. Such as the many times it's attempted to fight the SEC, played fast and loose with health and safety regulations in its factories, attempted to manipulate markets to burn short sellers, or bricked the cars of second-hand sellers. Sure, one or two of those events could be explained. But there is a social compact here. At a certain point, it reminds me of Uber's historical attitude towards local regulations or user privacy. This is not a comparison that I am happy to make. This, of course, is besides the highly contentious notion that anyone will "benefit" from a public health order being overturned.
    - rdgthree 6y ago
      Elon plays fast and loose with his opinions in public discourse, but generally when Tesla makes an official move like this it seems to be more thoroughly considered by a larger group of people than just Elon. I have the same gut feeling that you seem to have when I first hear these stories, but the associated press releases seem to consistently have concrete foundations that I don't initially expect. In this case, they point to their experience dealing with exactly this process in Shanghai, and running the Gigafactory over there for 3 months successfully since reboot. That gave me pause - they've seen this and dealt with it firsthand already, which isn't something nearly anyone commenting on this can say. Maybe they're lying, but that feels like a pretty serious unearned accusation. I think everyone agrees that we should restart businesses if it's reasonable to, but it doesn't seem like anyone is evaluating what "reasonable" means outside of "what the local government is saying". And then you have to wonder why we're suddenly assuming the state/city government is competent in this case. I don't know where I stand, but I know that I'm not assuming Tesla is in the wrong here. I know far less than they do and it would take a miracle to convince me that the local government is properly thoroughly evaluating the situation and making nuanced, reasonable decisions (as opposed to simply reacting to the political environment). It's increasingly difficult to figure out how to proceed, but at some point we have to decide that we're able to open businesses back up (with safety measures that we decide are adequate). It's scary, but we can't just wait around for a vaccine forever - it could be years out. It's just a fundamentally hard problem.
firasd 6y ago
I’d like to know what Tesla factory workers think. It’s seeming clear to me from various polls that at most 20% of Americans think ‘oh everything is fine let’s go back to work and school tomorrow.’ So opinions on social distancing are not as polarized as you would think from the media.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
  As always, the devil is in the details. I'd imagine a heavily automated car factory is actually one of the safer places to work, compared to (say) a hog slaughterhouse or a massage parlor. In a sane world, we'd let workers choose between going to work and staying home without undue penalties either way, but that's not going to happen in 'Murica.
  - rasengan 6y ago
    The problem is that coronavirus lives for days [1] on various surfaces. Is Elon Musk going to be on the factory floor everyday too? Additionally, social distancing doesn’t work [2] and is a suggestion being made by non medical professionals to non medical students. [1] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/study-suggests-new-coronavirus-may-remain-surfaces-days https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/study-s... [2] https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200414/cdc-covid-19-can-spread-13-feet-travel-on-shoes https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200414/cdc-covid-19-can-sp...
    - travisporter 6y ago
      Your second link is an interesting read. Even though the virus was found on the floor and >6 ft away in a Chinese hospital, fortunately no staff were infected. I am not a scientist but I think they just tested for viral fragments versus active infectable viral particles. It’s reassuring but caution is still warranted.
      - koheripbal 6y ago
        Moreover comparing a HOSPITAL with a factory is ludicrous as the viral loads are orders of magnitude different.
jshen 6y ago
I’ve been planning to get a Tesla, but I can’t buy one anymore. Between this and all the crazy, and sometimes illegal, shit Elon says, I just cant do it.
- nikkwong 6y ago
  Yeah, watching his attitude regarding the entire COVID situation on his recent appearance of the Joe Rogan show really ended the lifelong bout of respect I had for the man. He's paradoxically so brilliant yet so misinformed. His idea that we should all just exit quarantine tomorrow because it's unconstitutional is not only dangerous but also now seems to come from a place of selfishness after this statement. Economists and epidemiologists are in agreement about what the current plan of action should be in the US. Why does he think he knows better? Not only that, but these types of "normal people vs the evil government" statements only add fuel to the trumpian narrative that corruption and misinformation are everywhere; and all of our institutions are worthless. This is such a consequential position to take and yet he seems to do it without even thinking about the repercussions of his words. Shame on him!
  - fxtentacle 6y ago
    Probably he's just rich enough so that his lived everyday experience suggests that everything is fine. I mean if you had assured access to excellent health care, easy access to testing, a large private garden to spend time outdoors in, and staff who take care of all the chores where normal people might get sick, then there's a good chance you also would feel more relaxed about this pandemic because it's likely to not inconvenience you personally. Of course, he's still a acting ignorant / stupid, but I'd guess that a certain lack of social skills - empathy in particular - is quite common among startup founders.
    - nikkwong 6y ago
      I think there's some truth in this, I don't know. We don't see other billionaires being so inappropriately outspoken on these matters. Further, he has a cult-like following that's rare even for billionaires; because of this, the burden should fall on him even further to be more circumspect with his words. Just think about his public tweet ejaculations which frequently decimate his investor's 401k portfolios. Part of his appeal is how he's so forthcoming about his thoughts; but this is proving to be a double edged sword. As days continue to pass his words feel more and more like an instance of Hanlon's razor, he's not actually trying to project a world view that makes sense; it simply doesn't matter to him. And these externalities which are laying in his wake also don't matter. You will be hard pressed to find a billionaire that's that careless.
centimeter 6y ago
Good. The economic devastation produced by the absurd government overreaction has destroyed orders of magnitude more net utility (measured in dollars, or imputed uniform-weight utils, or QALY, or whatever) than any realistic projection for the destruction caused by this virus. It's should now be abundantly clear to everyone what was clear to people who looked at the available data with a level head months ago: these lockdowns are pointless at best, and realistically they have been incredibly destructive. I would hope that people would learn from this whole thing why the airheaded "lives are more important than the economy" rhetoric is an absurd category error, but I think that may be expecting too much of people.
- Osiris 6y ago
  Predicting the future is notoriously difficult and reviewing the past can only show what happened from a single course of action. There's literally no way to know what would have happened if no lock down happened. There aren't even good examples of other countries that didn't lock down since basically everyone did. So, since I'm no an epidemiologist, I'll defer the expertise to those that are.
  - icelancer 6y ago
    >> There aren't even good examples of other countries that didn't lock down since basically everyone did. If you mean via government mandate, Sweden is a good ongoing example of this.
    - maybenot2231 6y ago
      Sweden has 2x the projected per capita death rate of the US from the virus. I think saving 135k lives are a substantial consideration for action.
      - icelancer 6y ago
        It's not over yet. Sweden's idea is the deaths under the curve are likely to be the same everywhere for the next 12-18 months, so they are frontloading them without crashing the domestic industries while trying to keep hospitals from being overloaded. The strategy can't be judged for quite some time.
DanielleMolloy 6y ago
Claiming luxury car production to be "critical infrastructure" to get employees back into factories, crazy lockdown protests, poor people of color affected most, probably nobody talking about all the people without proper health insurance, and some people right now probably becoming broke despite paying for health insurance.. Sitting in my european "communist" social security net reading US news I fear it is the "invisible hand" of out-of-control capitalism reacting to a global pandemic in the most lucrative way over there (= indifferent towards lives lost). Edit: So who is downvoting all the comments in this thread that are critical of Teslas factory reopening? Wondering whether you've got the courage to explain yourself?
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads into ideological flamewar. Not what this site is for. There are plenty of critical comments (in the four threads HN has had about this topic) which have not been downvoted. Ranty flamebait, on the other hand, should certainly be downvoted and flagged. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - mempko 6y ago
    But where is the lie?
    - Smaug123 6y ago
      It's not a question of truth, but of rantiness and flamebaitness. The mere fact that what you're saying is true doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to phrase it in a discourse-preserving way.
  - DanielleMolloy 6y ago
    I accept your decision, my apologies - but could you please let me know in some more detail why this was flagged so that I can get a chance to understand and correct my mistake(s)? Because I can only conclude „don’t try to discuss side effects of capitalism” right now. Is there a heated debate I’m unaware of, that my comment might have been attributed to? What is the flamewar bit? I did not read the other threads.
yongjik 6y ago
Bold move, threatening to destroy local jobs (if he doesn't get what he wants), in one of the wealthiest economies in the world, when public perception of "businesses putting profit in front of human lives" is hitting an all-time low. This is going to be entertaining.
- anonytrary 6y ago
  That's not very fair, since I could make the exact same argument about the the government's actions on this issue. Lockdowns didn't just threaten to destroy jobs -- they did destroy jobs. Calling out Elon Musk for making a decision that would do the same provides no contrast. On top of that, Elon Musk is trying hard to get his workers back to work. If it means moving to a new state where workers are actually allowed and afforded work, it would be a net gain for the workforce.
  - ra7 6y ago
    Let’s be real. All this drama by Elon Musk has very little to do with his “concern” for workers. He just wants to resume production so the business can resume. This is the same person that refused to shut down the factory and put his workers’ health at risk. The motive behind his dangerous tweets and tantrums is pretty clear for everyone to see.
    - cassalian 6y ago
      > The motive behind his dangerous tweets and tantrums is pretty clear for everyone to see. Does his motive necessarily matter? Or more specifically, is his motive reason enough to essentially spite him? If Elon wanted to cure all disease in every single on of his workers (because that would mean they would never take sick days, and thus produce more) does that mean you would oppose the curing of disease in Elon's workers? After all, Elon's motivations are purely selfish in this case as well Now maybe you want to argue that curing disease in workers and allowing them to work are two different things and don't match up at all. Are they though? Jobs ensure quality healthcare, pay for the roof over your head, the food on your table, the pain killers you take for your bad back, etc. A lot of being 'healthy' and having a job (in the US) are intimately related. I'm sure there are plenty of holes in my example above that can be quibbled over; however, my question still stands: is someone's motivation reason enough to spite something that could be a net good? I do not think so. You may wish to argue that "the workers don't want to go back to work, it's worse for them to do so": are you one of these workers; do you know what the consequences are of them not being able to work versus the consequences of going into work?
hyko 6y ago
And so fades any chance that I’ll ever buy a Tesla vehicle. All this lunacy is rotting the brand from the inside, and nobody has the power to stop it. Especially galling because they were supposed to use technology to lead us to a better world, but instead they seem to be unable to escape one man’s hubris.
- flo123456 6y ago
  Better get a Diesel from a respected vendor then. They’ve not done anything questionable for the past 2-3 years. ;-)
  - hyko 6y ago
    Other electric vehicle makers are available :) And none of them need an erratic soap opera swirling around them to market their products.
    - flo123456 6y ago
      Yes of course. The comment above was a joke. Hence the winky smiley. :-)
- pcdoodle 6y ago
  Have fun in your Prius.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Have fun buying a car from a manufacturer that is not manufacturing, and be sure to complain about Tesla threatening to boycott California while you threaten to boycott their products!
  - hyko 6y ago
    I’m not boycotting Tesla. What I’m saying is that as a prospective customer I am not reassured that the company won’t just try and pull a load of weird shit on me in the future (either by imploding or screwing me over) and for that reason I can’t commit to them. It’s a great pity because we have to recognise they have essentially created the modern EV space, and I was actually looking forward to adopting their tech.
dang 6y ago
Three threads on this already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216 Not sure this one is going any better. Celebrity frenzy multiplied by pandemic rage is producing as wild a burn as we've seen on HN. If you're about to comment here, could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html first and make sure what you're about to do is in keeping with the intended spirit of this place? Note this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
- hyko 6y ago
  I guess technically speaking, the threat to move Tesla production & HQ to Texas and the lawsuit against Alameda county are separate topics.
  - badRNG 6y ago
    In the face of both, Alameda County is likely to be put in a position where it may feel the need to reconsider the lockdown orders in the face of both an expensive lawsuit and losing jobs, when relaxing restrictions on Tesla can potentially save the county both jobs and money.
- clouddrover 6y ago
  It would be better to link to more balanced articles which discuss both sides of the argument. Such as this one: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/business/coronavirus-elon-musk-tesla-california.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/business/coronavirus-elon... As opposed to linking to single sided tweets and blog posts from Tesla and Musk.
- ydb 6y ago
  Thank you for being a diamond in the rough, Dan. Your tireless work keeping Hacker News a safe haven for free thinkers and polite politic is essential during times like these.
Animats 6y ago
Missing the elephant in the room here. Musk is a druggie. He's known to use at least marijuana and Ambien.[1] Sam Altman was worried about this back in 2017: "There was Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk offering this tweet: "A little red wine, vintage record, some Ambien ... and magic!" Naturally, not everyone was moved positively by this apparent form of entertainment. Y Combinator President Sam Altman, for example, worried: 'Ambien tweeting is a dangerous game.'" [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/elon-musks-strange-strange-ambien-tweet/ https://www.cnet.com/news/elon-musks-strange-strange-ambien-...
- inakarmacoma 6y ago
  Cannabis, and Ambien? Oh, the horrors.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - KKKKkkkk1 6y ago
    Whether it's chemical induced or not, his behavior is erratic. I don't think there's another CEO who isn't allowed to tweet without prior legal review.
    - holler 6y ago
      CEO of America :laugh:
- throwaway20148 6y ago
  A “druggie”? Who are you, Andy Griffith?
- holler 6y ago
  If we're asserting he's a druggie due to cannabis use, then all of America and the world are druggies from ethanol use.
lihaciudaniel 6y ago
Shame, reminds me of ancient slavery or when the master exploits the slaves in spite of the plaque.
smileysteve 6y ago
Having toured multiple car plants, and knowing Tesla is more automated than many, I am of the belief that much of the line work can successfully happen at social distances.
- pinkfoot 6y ago
  …because you were able to detect - with your naked eye - the absence of microscopic virus molecues on the various factory surfaces. Wow
  - rfrey 6y ago
    You mocked the worst possible straw-man interpretation of your parent's comment. Smileysteve clearly meant his tour of the plant indicated relatively few workers in the plant relative to other plants, and work could probably be arranged to keep them a certain distance from each other.
- stefan_ 6y ago
  This is the same car plant that produces triple the number of OSHA violations as any of its competitors (combined). If that plant has a record, it is one ignoring safety.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    A source: > A review by Forbes found 24 investigations by California Occupational Safety and Health Administration inspectors from 2014 to 2018, resulting in fines for 54 violations. These include new penalties that haven't yet hit the national online OSHA database, and they nearly double Tesla's fines over the last five years, to $236,730. * https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-safety-violations-dwarf-big-us-auto-plants-in-aftermath-of-musks-model-3-push/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-sa...
    - koheripbal 6y ago
      I don't think this is very damning nor unexpected. A plant with the degree of _change_ that Tesla has on its product line would likely have a very very dynamic production floor - resulting in more violations. It also seems that the OSHA rules were not designed for Tesla's unique processes, so many of those violations, if you actually read them, are not relevant to Tesla and have nothing to do with safety. This problem will go away as their plant process matures and as they are given the opportunity to comment on the next revision of the OSHA automotive plant rules. Also, there have been no deaths or serious injuries, so it's hard to argue that safety was actually compromised here.
foobar_ 6y ago
Is this like SARS or like flu ? SARS is no flu. In the recent Joe Rogan podcast Elon Musk was talking about the need for more accurate data. The scientific facts seem blurry at the moment. Watching the dutch news, the next steps seem to be a number of restrictions on the movements which seem sensible. Doctors have to deal with even more virues and infections. What needs to happen is, how can people work efficiently with protective gear. There is simply no other way to work otherwise, assuming this is a serious infection. The logical next steps would be to pass a law that forces each company to open work if they can give safety equipment to everyone and provides insurance / accurate assessments of the workers getting sick. Cost cutting and avoiding liabilities is just pathetic at this point.
- dralley 6y ago
  It's somewhere in between SARS and the Flu. Definitely much more deadly than the Flu, definitely less deadly than SARS (but more contagious).
eplanit 6y ago
Elon Musk is my new hero.
- ydb 6y ago
  Pfft. Elon has always been my hero. :) But on a more serious note, it is great that we are seeing thought leaders counter-act the media propaganda frenzy regarding this situation. The "big evil businessman" know best that our economy is on shaky ground, and that continuing social distancing measures will immeasurably damage America's position as a global power (and thus its citizens security and freedom) more than a few tens of thousands of deaths will. I, for one, am proud to go back to work. Staying at home isolated is merely fomenting unnecessary chaos and social unrest.
  - throwaway4220 6y ago
    I am fortunate to be employed too, but I work in a closed space with little contact with others. Unless you work in a meatpacking plant, hospital, factory, or front-facing office, you may be taking on less risk than Tesla workers. In defense, Tesla did send an e-mail to the workers saying they could stay home if they are at risk, which is hats off to them. Is it legally defensible to use this if they get fired? I hope so. Man, I really liked Elon, until he started downplaying and dismissing the risk of COVID. It just didn't come from solid scientific reasoning in my view. Taken out of context, this lawsuit would have had me in full support of Tesla. But I now really have to question his motives behind employing people at Tesla.
- valachio 6y ago
  Yeah I didn't like much before. Then he went out and tweeted "tesla stock too high imo" and I was like yo. Paid more attention to him and began liking him more and more.
foob4r 6y ago
Cancelling my Tesla pre-order - this is an abuse of workers (more blatant than before).
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > this is an abuse of workers (more blatant than before). I don't know if I'd personally use the word "abuse", but a post in another forum noted some OSHA statistics: > In fact, data collected by Forbes shows that Tesla has accumulated more than three times the number of Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) violations that its top 10 competitors amassed from 2014-2018. * https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-many-osha-violations-as-the-10-largest-us-plants-combined https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-man... > A review by Forbes found 24 investigations by California Occupational Safety and Health Administration inspectors from 2014 to 2018, resulting in fines for 54 violations. These include new penalties that haven't yet hit the national online OSHA database, and they nearly double Tesla's fines over the last five years, to $236,730. * https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-safety-violations-dwarf-big-us-auto-plants-in-aftermath-of-musks-model-3-push/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-sa...
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Aside from being a meaningless anecdote, your claim is unproven. How are we supposed to know that you really had an order? Also, this comment is pure advocacy. We come here for analysis and depth.
  - foob4r 6y ago
    I see you've posted this at least once more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 Seems like you're just spamming without staying relevant to the topic here.
- abstractbarista 6y ago
  I'm just about to place an order. Glad to cancel yours out. Tesla and everyone and thing that makes it up is awesome.
rayhendricks 6y ago
I don’t see any mention of background testing of Tesla workers. Testing everyone combined with guaranteed paid leave and a very strong statement from executives on non-retaliation for actually taking the leave will be just about the only way that they could re-open right now. Amazon is going to do this, why can’t Tesla?
theossuary 6y ago
This reminds me of a piece of this: https://chomsky.info/19960413/ https://chomsky.info/19960413/ Specifically, near the end > Meaning, setting up a picture — it’s called anti-politics — the picture — but a very specific kind of anti-politics — you have to establish the image, you know, get into people’s heads, that the Government is the enemy- the Federal Government. State Governments are okay, because they can be sort of controlled by business anyway, so it doesn’t matter. But the Federal Government is sometimes a little too big to be pushed around, so it’s the enemy. And it cannot be, nobody can dream of the possibility, that the Government is of, by, and for the people. That’s impossible. It’s an enemy to be hated and feared. While I don't necessarily disagree with it being the state's role to decide when and how to open back up, it does have its drawbacks. Companies can and (if Tesla is any indication) will use their influence with these states to open back up. The only thing left giving them pause is public opinion.
- csomar 6y ago
  Except that it's not the Federal or the State that's blocking Tesla. It's the county. So this argument would play otherwise.
babesh 6y ago
This is the very best article I have read on the lockdown: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leaders-let-scientists-take-the-lead-new-yorks-did-not https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leade... The positive is that Washington state acted early and the Bay Area followed quickly which resulted in lower hospitalization and deaths. Tech’s quick move to WFH probably helped slow the spread. This was driven by the Washington state health officials who worked with Microsoft. Bay Area tech companies quickly copied WFH. The negative is that health officials manipulated the public like they were children: “ Constantine told me, “Jeff recognized what he was asking for was impractical. He said if we advised social distancing right away there would be zero acceptance. And so the question was: What can we say today so that people will be ready to hear what we need to say tomorrow?” In e-mails and phone calls, the men began playing a game: What was the most extreme advice they could give that people wouldn’t scoff at? Considering what would likely be happening four days from then, what would they regret not having said?” Since the initial lockdown, it’s been more of the same. Slogans have changed: flatten the curve turns into prevent the health care system from being overrun which turns into driven by data. Lockdowns get extended: May 4 turns into June 1st and maybe beyond. Takeaways: 1. Health care officials were right to initially lock down. 2. Health care officials and government don’t respect the public. 3. This dynamic is coming home to roost. 4. Health care officials think this is going to last a long time.
- zzleeper 6y ago
  Had the US (at all govt levels) actually treated this seriously, as a health problem and not economic/political problem, we could be in a situation like Taiwan/NZ. The US is large, but mostly insulated, so this was feasible. But it would have required EVERYONE wearing masks, and no delays in locking things down (one day of delay in an exponential situation is like 4 more days of lockdown at the other end)
  - rjzzleep 6y ago
    What's more is that since Taiwan published their email they sent to the WHO in December about the severeness of the threat and given the fact that the US is basically considered their only real ally, they almost certainly directly warned the US. Of course I doubt that they would ever say that in public given that they don't want to piss off their only big military ally with a vengeful president.
mchusma 6y ago
One important point in this discussion is that workers only have to return at their own discretion. Since no worker is being forced to work, the argument is best thought of as whether or not workers who chooses to work should be allowed to do so given Tesla's plan. They can also stay at home if they prefer, or seek other employment if they want to work but find Tesla's safety plan unconvincing.
- mushbino 6y ago
  Will workers still be eligible for unemployment insurance payments if they choose not to go back after Tesla opens?
  - cjhopman 6y ago
    They won't, and that puts the lie to all these people saying it's no big deal and they don't have to go to work if they don't want to.
- magic5227 6y ago
  With record unemployment factory workers do not have such a luxury to just walk away if they dont like Tesla's plan. For most this is "lose your housing/food" or "risk getting Covid"
- exolymph 6y ago
  This is true but only in the narrowest possible sense, and one wonders why you felt it was worth noting.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
awinder 6y ago
Is there any reason to believe that taking temperature is going to effectively curb virus transmissions? I would assume you’d be well into spreading by the point you started running a fever.

203 points by xoxoy 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Charlie Munger on Elon Musk: “I don’t want my personal life to be [around] a bunch of guys who are living in a state of delusion, who happen occasionally to win big,” Munger told Daily Journal’s shareholders. “I want the prudent person.” https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/19/charlie-munger-ideal-hire-wouldnt-be-someone-like-elon-musk.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/19/charlie-munger-ideal-hire-wo...

Phr0ztByte 6y ago
And from the same article "is bold and brilliant, and he swings for the fences." and ... "People like that get some remarkable results,” Munger continued. “Sometimes they get some quick failures. I haven’t the faintest idea how Elon Musk will turn out, but he has a considerable chance of success and considerable chance of failure. He seems to like it that way."
- holler 6y ago
  > but he has a considerable chance of success... Wait a second, by all measures this billionaire is _already_ successful, no? How could anyone claim the contrary?
  - ebcode 6y ago
    The success he's referring to could be the success of Elon's vision, rather than Elon himself.
  - gherkinnn 6y ago
    Depending on how it ends. Will he be reduced to a mad man shouting on twitter, with nothing left to his name but failed enterprises? Or will he carve the moon in his image?
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Money on that scale is of a very different character to money as normal people understand it. It’s more like being a medieval king: to the extent that you’re the shareholder, your wealth is the “nation’s” wealth; your guards are paid for out of your pocket; and you can be drawn into conflicts that lead to you losing everything. It’s that latter part that I’d be worried about with Musk. He took a very big gamble with SpaceX, and if one more launch had failed in the early years, he would’ve become a mere footnote on someone else’s Wikipedia page. The concern is he might make similar gambles in future.
LudwigNagasena 6y ago
A guy who consistently founds or joins successful companies is not someone I would call “who happen occasionally to win big”. He founded Zip2 that was acquired by AltaVista, he joined PayPal that was acquired by eBay, he joined Tesla, he founded SpaceX. His record is stellar. Of course it is understandable that Berkshire Hathaway wouldn’t hire anyone like Musk. They are as far from tech and VC as any investor could ever be. I admire Buffet and Munger, but the guys are 90 years old, I honestly couldn’t care less what they think about IT industry.
- mkagenius 6y ago
  > I admire Buffet and Munger, but the guys are 90 years old, Well, then you need to tell me your age, to know whether I should care about what you have written above.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Not OP, but mid 30s and I’m getting a bit tired of folks who are out of touch because of their age believing their past experience can extrapolate a future they don’t understand (Buffett in particular has done a very poor job understanding and investing in tech). It’s terribly ironic that they think Musk is just lucky considering Munger and Buffett were able to invest during one of the most prosperous times in American history. Admit you’re passed your prime and move on. Make way for innovators instead of valuing reading a 10-K and preferring conservative companies you believe are undervalued, or distressed companies you’re going to try to twist their arm into a deal (as Buffett did during the GFC with banks).
    - rdgthree 6y ago
      Your comment and OP's comment are a bit silly given the context. Munger didn't say anything controversial here. He was asked a question about Elon and answered by saying he prefers less risk. He specifically pointed out that Elon shouldn't be underestimated while saying it. Elon doesn't just like to take risks, he would probably agree with being described as "risk obsessed". If your investment strategy is risk aversion and stability, you should avoid Elon. That isn't an outdated perspective, nor is it arrogant in any way - Elon would probably agree with it. The last sentence was an exaggeration of his bias when evaluating any operator to drive his point home clearly. It's fairly difficult to imagine that Charlie Munger thinks Elon Musk has just gotten lucky for his entire career, and unsurprisingly he isn't saying that in this example. I'm all for fairly criticizing out-of-touch arrogance, but I can't see it being the case here.
rdgthree 6y ago
Taking this quote out of context is impressively dishonest. It would be incredibly inaccurate to describe Elon's history of winning big as "occasional", and for that same reason it would be incredibly surprising if Charlie Munger described Elon's career this way with no qualifiers. Not surprisingly, he didn't. This quote is the end of a much more nuanced statement to conclude the point that he generally prefers to invest in operators who take less risk. Regardless of your opinion on Elon, this sort of manipulation of reality damages the discourse. It's not helping anyone.
- KKKKkkkk1 6y ago
  The quote speaks for itself. Please do not stoop to ad hominems.
  - aaron695 6y ago
    We can listen to the quote here, and it's not about Elon at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Oi3esiry8&feature=youtu.be&t=3180 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Oi3esiry8&feature=youtu.be... And to me, he is only attributing a quote to Elon, nothing else, but the audience takes it a different way. Regardless the quote above is not about Elon.
centimeter 6y ago
> a bunch of guys who are living in a state of delusion Sounds like the politicians and assorted apparatchiks who still think, or claim to think, that this virus is orders of magnitude worse than it actually is.
alasdair_ 6y ago
This is the same Charlie Munger who backed airline stocks when everyone else was dumping them, outside only to finally realize how terrible they were far too late and finally dump them weeks after the rest of the market did. His opinion is absolutely valid, but it’s not like his track record is any more exceptional than Musk’s.
- ckastner 6y ago
  > It’s not like his track record is any more exceptional than Musk’s. Everyone makes mistakes, but to conclude that Berkshire Hathaways' track record is "not ... more exceptional than Musk's" is beyond folly. Their success over decades is unparalleled. Furthermore, Berkshire on principle plays the long game. They rarely act on short-term events. Tesla was also badly affected by the Covid-19 measures. The Fremont plant is still closed. You would have expected Munger to dump airlines sooner; but would you also have expected Musk to dump his TSLA stock, too? For some people, being an investor means looking at a time horizon of decades, not months.

mnm1 6y ago

It's obviously essential, critical work to fill up giant parking lots with new cars no one is going to buy. That's a great reason to resume work during the pandemic. I can't believe they even got shut down in the first place. If there aren't at least ten teslas for every American that can't afford them, we have failed as a society.

MattGaiser 6y ago
Hasn’t Tesla already presold most of its vehicles?
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  I don't believe so. I had no trouble finding mine on the lot late last year, and there were plenty to choose from. It is possible the Y is momentarily sold out, but the other models should [or would be] easily available.
urda 6y ago
A luxury vehicle manufacturer is not essential. Elon is rushing things so he can make a buck, at the costs (and possibly lives) of his workers.
- urda 6y ago
  The fact that HN would rather downvote this comment and is OK with people getting killed is absolutely disgusting. I've literally had both friends and family die because of bad actors like Elon. HN you disappoint me, but I guess it's comes as no shock when you're obsessed with VCs and making a buck, instead of trying to help others.
techntoke 6y ago
It looks like you got downvoted. There is a certain group of people that if they catch you outside without a mask or if you say publicly people should return to work, they'll post pictures of you on reddit and advocate for your murder, but as soon as Elon Musk says people should return to work they will immediately defend him because they think he is a God that is faultless.

otakucode 6y ago

What I didn't see mentioned that concerns me (although I admit it might be a concern born purely out of ignorance): No mention of whether employees would be provided with a minimum of 2 weeks paid sick leave should they show symptoms of COVID-19. Any employee who has a reasonable chance of becoming ill with COVID-19 at their work, and who does not also have a minimum of 2 weeks paid leave, should, by all logic I can think of, refuse to return to work. In a situation with no paid sick leave or less than 2 weeks of paid sick leave, the options are mostly reduced to 2: First, return to work, get sick, then get fired for absence while off sick. Or, second, remain home and get fired for absence while remaining healthy. I suppose there is the third options, the danger-face economic kamikaze model that most Americans will likely be expected to endure - go to work, hope you don't get sick, get sick anyway, get fired for absence. Then you can't even file for unemployment. There is no winning play.

NamTaf 6y ago
"There is no winning play." That's by design. There's no winning play for the line worker, because providing one reduces the returns for the investors. If it wasn't already obvious before this, the corona response by the US has thrown into sharp relief how stacked the deck is - from top to bottom - against the common worker.
- sangnoir 6y ago
  I mean, the name of the economic system is pretty blatant. "Capitalism" is exactly what it says on the tin, and it's pretty unbridled in the US, to its own detriment (long-term), IMO.
markvdb 6y ago
Fundamental flaws in US health care and worker protection exposed. That's what this is. Compare to the system in my native Belgium: - a month of 100% paid sick leave, paid by the employer - followed by five months 60% of wage in sick leave, paid by social security - protected from redundancy within this 6 month period - if made redundant afterwards while still ill after 6 months, obligation for the employer to pay (significant) damages - 60% of last wage sick pay afterwards, capped to a generous maximum, unlimited in time as long as the illness lasts, paid by social security - high quality healthcare regardless of employment status - jobless benefits when healthy without a job, unlimited in time, recently made somewhat degressive This makes for less of a power imbalance between employers and employees. Huge short and medium term social stabiliser. Certainly not without its flaws, but great to have in place during these times of severe economic crisis.

dvt 6y ago

The full complaint is here: https://www.scribd.com/document/460681532/Tesla-v-Alameda-County-Complaint-Copy#from_embed https://www.scribd.com/document/460681532/Tesla-v-Alameda-Co...

jeffbee 6y ago
This is a pretty broad argument, that if there exists, somewhere, any jurisdiction that would permit Tesla to operate their factory, but Alameda County does not permit it, then the Equal Protection clause has been violated.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  The initial claim is broad. ...but the application can be pretty narrow as neighboring jurisdictions are allowing people back to work.

54351623 6y ago

Bold move to extort public officials with threats to move a factory you're attempting to fully automate and a few hundred white collar positions to a state where your main bargaining chip is jobs when you possess less than 5% market share, a vertical monopoly and a luxury product in a crashing market. Excited to see how this one turns out.

samsonradu 6y ago
Indeed, looking at the bigger picture I can't help seeing the absurdity of it. For all the praising of Tesla cars, which might very well be founded, it's just a freaking car in a market where demand fell off a cliff.
- badRNG 6y ago
  I have to wonder if these actions by Musk are going to hurt the brand image of Tesla. Sure people buy the car because it has cool gimmick features and is electric, but when you buy a car for $30k+ there's a reason you spent that kind of money: the car is a form of self expression (whether one would like to admit it or not.) When one buys a Tesla, it indicates that they are with the times, both technologically and socially.
  - otachack 6y ago
    Didn't Tesla push the boundaries on EV, though, whereas traditional car companies were just fine with continuing production of gas based vehicles? I guess there were hybrids but it felt like Toyota was the only big player there.
    - badRNG 6y ago
      Chevy was also a big EV/hybrid player in the mid to late '00s. I think the sort of individual that buys an expensive vehicle to, at least in part, broadcast that they are an environmentally-conscious person would be turned off by a company strong-arming a county into relaxing regulations, especially when such deregulation is perceived to put that company's workers at risk. While the facts of what public policy is best can be debated, it seems inevitable that Tesla's brand will suffer from this.

propter_hoc 6y ago

Suing the county, really? There's hundreds of thousands, probably millions of businesses that have been shuttered by COVID-19, and yet, of course, who should it be but the constant media circus that is Tesla--whose hit is miniscule compared to the restaurants, hotels and other businesses that actually can't earn revenue--that decides to publicly take it to the courts. I truly hate to say this, but it really smacks of a solipsistic kind of attitude: that Tesla's problems matter more than other companies', and that anything that gets in its way, whether pandemics, short-sellers or lawmakers, are just an irritant.

centimeter 6y ago
Most businesses aren't in a position to sue the county. If Tesla sues and wins, those other businesses will benefit as well. I'm not sure what you're objecting to here.
- propter_hoc 6y ago
  My point is that this is yet another case where it is Tesla who is in the news for some controversial conflict. Such as the many times it's attempted to fight the SEC, played fast and loose with health and safety regulations in its factories, attempted to manipulate markets to burn short sellers, or bricked the cars of second-hand sellers. Sure, one or two of those events could be explained. But there is a social compact here. At a certain point, it reminds me of Uber's historical attitude towards local regulations or user privacy. This is not a comparison that I am happy to make. This, of course, is besides the highly contentious notion that anyone will "benefit" from a public health order being overturned.
  - rdgthree 6y ago
    Elon plays fast and loose with his opinions in public discourse, but generally when Tesla makes an official move like this it seems to be more thoroughly considered by a larger group of people than just Elon. I have the same gut feeling that you seem to have when I first hear these stories, but the associated press releases seem to consistently have concrete foundations that I don't initially expect. In this case, they point to their experience dealing with exactly this process in Shanghai, and running the Gigafactory over there for 3 months successfully since reboot. That gave me pause - they've seen this and dealt with it firsthand already, which isn't something nearly anyone commenting on this can say. Maybe they're lying, but that feels like a pretty serious unearned accusation. I think everyone agrees that we should restart businesses if it's reasonable to, but it doesn't seem like anyone is evaluating what "reasonable" means outside of "what the local government is saying". And then you have to wonder why we're suddenly assuming the state/city government is competent in this case. I don't know where I stand, but I know that I'm not assuming Tesla is in the wrong here. I know far less than they do and it would take a miracle to convince me that the local government is properly thoroughly evaluating the situation and making nuanced, reasonable decisions (as opposed to simply reacting to the political environment). It's increasingly difficult to figure out how to proceed, but at some point we have to decide that we're able to open businesses back up (with safety measures that we decide are adequate). It's scary, but we can't just wait around for a vaccine forever - it could be years out. It's just a fundamentally hard problem.

firasd 6y ago

I’d like to know what Tesla factory workers think. It’s seeming clear to me from various polls that at most 20% of Americans think ‘oh everything is fine let’s go back to work and school tomorrow.’ So opinions on social distancing are not as polarized as you would think from the media.

9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
As always, the devil is in the details. I'd imagine a heavily automated car factory is actually one of the safer places to work, compared to (say) a hog slaughterhouse or a massage parlor. In a sane world, we'd let workers choose between going to work and staying home without undue penalties either way, but that's not going to happen in 'Murica.
- rasengan 6y ago
  The problem is that coronavirus lives for days [1] on various surfaces. Is Elon Musk going to be on the factory floor everyday too? Additionally, social distancing doesn’t work [2] and is a suggestion being made by non medical professionals to non medical students. [1] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/study-suggests-new-coronavirus-may-remain-surfaces-days https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/study-s... [2] https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200414/cdc-covid-19-can-spread-13-feet-travel-on-shoes https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200414/cdc-covid-19-can-sp...
  - travisporter 6y ago
    Your second link is an interesting read. Even though the virus was found on the floor and >6 ft away in a Chinese hospital, fortunately no staff were infected. I am not a scientist but I think they just tested for viral fragments versus active infectable viral particles. It’s reassuring but caution is still warranted.
    - koheripbal 6y ago
      Moreover comparing a HOSPITAL with a factory is ludicrous as the viral loads are orders of magnitude different.

jshen 6y ago

I’ve been planning to get a Tesla, but I can’t buy one anymore. Between this and all the crazy, and sometimes illegal, shit Elon says, I just cant do it.

nikkwong 6y ago
Yeah, watching his attitude regarding the entire COVID situation on his recent appearance of the Joe Rogan show really ended the lifelong bout of respect I had for the man. He's paradoxically so brilliant yet so misinformed. His idea that we should all just exit quarantine tomorrow because it's unconstitutional is not only dangerous but also now seems to come from a place of selfishness after this statement. Economists and epidemiologists are in agreement about what the current plan of action should be in the US. Why does he think he knows better? Not only that, but these types of "normal people vs the evil government" statements only add fuel to the trumpian narrative that corruption and misinformation are everywhere; and all of our institutions are worthless. This is such a consequential position to take and yet he seems to do it without even thinking about the repercussions of his words. Shame on him!
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  Probably he's just rich enough so that his lived everyday experience suggests that everything is fine. I mean if you had assured access to excellent health care, easy access to testing, a large private garden to spend time outdoors in, and staff who take care of all the chores where normal people might get sick, then there's a good chance you also would feel more relaxed about this pandemic because it's likely to not inconvenience you personally. Of course, he's still a acting ignorant / stupid, but I'd guess that a certain lack of social skills - empathy in particular - is quite common among startup founders.
  - nikkwong 6y ago
    I think there's some truth in this, I don't know. We don't see other billionaires being so inappropriately outspoken on these matters. Further, he has a cult-like following that's rare even for billionaires; because of this, the burden should fall on him even further to be more circumspect with his words. Just think about his public tweet ejaculations which frequently decimate his investor's 401k portfolios. Part of his appeal is how he's so forthcoming about his thoughts; but this is proving to be a double edged sword. As days continue to pass his words feel more and more like an instance of Hanlon's razor, he's not actually trying to project a world view that makes sense; it simply doesn't matter to him. And these externalities which are laying in his wake also don't matter. You will be hard pressed to find a billionaire that's that careless.

centimeter 6y ago

Good. The economic devastation produced by the absurd government overreaction has destroyed orders of magnitude more net utility (measured in dollars, or imputed uniform-weight utils, or QALY, or whatever) than any realistic projection for the destruction caused by this virus. It's should now be abundantly clear to everyone what was clear to people who looked at the available data with a level head months ago: these lockdowns are pointless at best, and realistically they have been incredibly destructive. I would hope that people would learn from this whole thing why the airheaded "lives are more important than the economy" rhetoric is an absurd category error, but I think that may be expecting too much of people.

Osiris 6y ago
Predicting the future is notoriously difficult and reviewing the past can only show what happened from a single course of action. There's literally no way to know what would have happened if no lock down happened. There aren't even good examples of other countries that didn't lock down since basically everyone did. So, since I'm no an epidemiologist, I'll defer the expertise to those that are.
- icelancer 6y ago
  >> There aren't even good examples of other countries that didn't lock down since basically everyone did. If you mean via government mandate, Sweden is a good ongoing example of this.
  - maybenot2231 6y ago
    Sweden has 2x the projected per capita death rate of the US from the virus. I think saving 135k lives are a substantial consideration for action.
    - icelancer 6y ago
      It's not over yet. Sweden's idea is the deaths under the curve are likely to be the same everywhere for the next 12-18 months, so they are frontloading them without crashing the domestic industries while trying to keep hospitals from being overloaded. The strategy can't be judged for quite some time.

DanielleMolloy 6y ago

Claiming luxury car production to be "critical infrastructure" to get employees back into factories, crazy lockdown protests, poor people of color affected most, probably nobody talking about all the people without proper health insurance, and some people right now probably becoming broke despite paying for health insurance.. Sitting in my european "communist" social security net reading US news I fear it is the "invisible hand" of out-of-control capitalism reacting to a global pandemic in the most lucrative way over there (= indifferent towards lives lost). Edit: So who is downvoting all the comments in this thread that are critical of Teslas factory reopening? Wondering whether you've got the courage to explain yourself?

dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads into ideological flamewar. Not what this site is for. There are plenty of critical comments (in the four threads HN has had about this topic) which have not been downvoted. Ranty flamebait, on the other hand, should certainly be downvoted and flagged. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mempko 6y ago
  But where is the lie?
  - Smaug123 6y ago
    It's not a question of truth, but of rantiness and flamebaitness. The mere fact that what you're saying is true doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to phrase it in a discourse-preserving way.
- DanielleMolloy 6y ago
  I accept your decision, my apologies - but could you please let me know in some more detail why this was flagged so that I can get a chance to understand and correct my mistake(s)? Because I can only conclude „don’t try to discuss side effects of capitalism” right now. Is there a heated debate I’m unaware of, that my comment might have been attributed to? What is the flamewar bit? I did not read the other threads.

yongjik 6y ago

Bold move, threatening to destroy local jobs (if he doesn't get what he wants), in one of the wealthiest economies in the world, when public perception of "businesses putting profit in front of human lives" is hitting an all-time low. This is going to be entertaining.

anonytrary 6y ago
That's not very fair, since I could make the exact same argument about the the government's actions on this issue. Lockdowns didn't just threaten to destroy jobs -- they did destroy jobs. Calling out Elon Musk for making a decision that would do the same provides no contrast. On top of that, Elon Musk is trying hard to get his workers back to work. If it means moving to a new state where workers are actually allowed and afforded work, it would be a net gain for the workforce.
- ra7 6y ago
  Let’s be real. All this drama by Elon Musk has very little to do with his “concern” for workers. He just wants to resume production so the business can resume. This is the same person that refused to shut down the factory and put his workers’ health at risk. The motive behind his dangerous tweets and tantrums is pretty clear for everyone to see.
  - cassalian 6y ago
    > The motive behind his dangerous tweets and tantrums is pretty clear for everyone to see. Does his motive necessarily matter? Or more specifically, is his motive reason enough to essentially spite him? If Elon wanted to cure all disease in every single on of his workers (because that would mean they would never take sick days, and thus produce more) does that mean you would oppose the curing of disease in Elon's workers? After all, Elon's motivations are purely selfish in this case as well Now maybe you want to argue that curing disease in workers and allowing them to work are two different things and don't match up at all. Are they though? Jobs ensure quality healthcare, pay for the roof over your head, the food on your table, the pain killers you take for your bad back, etc. A lot of being 'healthy' and having a job (in the US) are intimately related. I'm sure there are plenty of holes in my example above that can be quibbled over; however, my question still stands: is someone's motivation reason enough to spite something that could be a net good? I do not think so. You may wish to argue that "the workers don't want to go back to work, it's worse for them to do so": are you one of these workers; do you know what the consequences are of them not being able to work versus the consequences of going into work?

hyko 6y ago

And so fades any chance that I’ll ever buy a Tesla vehicle. All this lunacy is rotting the brand from the inside, and nobody has the power to stop it. Especially galling because they were supposed to use technology to lead us to a better world, but instead they seem to be unable to escape one man’s hubris.

flo123456 6y ago
Better get a Diesel from a respected vendor then. They’ve not done anything questionable for the past 2-3 years. ;-)
- hyko 6y ago
  Other electric vehicle makers are available :) And none of them need an erratic soap opera swirling around them to market their products.
  - flo123456 6y ago
    Yes of course. The comment above was a joke. Hence the winky smiley. :-)
pcdoodle 6y ago
Have fun in your Prius.
tinus_hn 6y ago
Have fun buying a car from a manufacturer that is not manufacturing, and be sure to complain about Tesla threatening to boycott California while you threaten to boycott their products!
- hyko 6y ago
  I’m not boycotting Tesla. What I’m saying is that as a prospective customer I am not reassured that the company won’t just try and pull a load of weird shit on me in the future (either by imploding or screwing me over) and for that reason I can’t commit to them. It’s a great pity because we have to recognise they have essentially created the modern EV space, and I was actually looking forward to adopting their tech.

dang 6y ago

Three threads on this already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216 Not sure this one is going any better. Celebrity frenzy multiplied by pandemic rage is producing as wild a burn as we've seen on HN. If you're about to comment here, could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html first and make sure what you're about to do is in keeping with the intended spirit of this place? Note this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

hyko 6y ago
I guess technically speaking, the threat to move Tesla production & HQ to Texas and the lawsuit against Alameda county are separate topics.
- badRNG 6y ago
  In the face of both, Alameda County is likely to be put in a position where it may feel the need to reconsider the lockdown orders in the face of both an expensive lawsuit and losing jobs, when relaxing restrictions on Tesla can potentially save the county both jobs and money.
clouddrover 6y ago
It would be better to link to more balanced articles which discuss both sides of the argument. Such as this one: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/business/coronavirus-elon-musk-tesla-california.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/business/coronavirus-elon... As opposed to linking to single sided tweets and blog posts from Tesla and Musk.
ydb 6y ago
Thank you for being a diamond in the rough, Dan. Your tireless work keeping Hacker News a safe haven for free thinkers and polite politic is essential during times like these.

Animats 6y ago

Missing the elephant in the room here. Musk is a druggie. He's known to use at least marijuana and Ambien.[1] Sam Altman was worried about this back in 2017: "There was Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk offering this tweet: "A little red wine, vintage record, some Ambien ... and magic!" Naturally, not everyone was moved positively by this apparent form of entertainment. Y Combinator President Sam Altman, for example, worried: 'Ambien tweeting is a dangerous game.'" [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/elon-musks-strange-strange-ambien-tweet/ https://www.cnet.com/news/elon-musks-strange-strange-ambien-...

inakarmacoma 6y ago
Cannabis, and Ambien? Oh, the horrors.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- KKKKkkkk1 6y ago
  Whether it's chemical induced or not, his behavior is erratic. I don't think there's another CEO who isn't allowed to tweet without prior legal review.
  - holler 6y ago
    CEO of America :laugh:
throwaway20148 6y ago
A “druggie”? Who are you, Andy Griffith?
holler 6y ago
If we're asserting he's a druggie due to cannabis use, then all of America and the world are druggies from ethanol use.

lihaciudaniel 6y ago

Shame, reminds me of ancient slavery or when the master exploits the slaves in spite of the plaque.

smileysteve 6y ago

Having toured multiple car plants, and knowing Tesla is more automated than many, I am of the belief that much of the line work can successfully happen at social distances.

pinkfoot 6y ago
…because you were able to detect - with your naked eye - the absence of microscopic virus molecues on the various factory surfaces. Wow
- rfrey 6y ago
  You mocked the worst possible straw-man interpretation of your parent's comment. Smileysteve clearly meant his tour of the plant indicated relatively few workers in the plant relative to other plants, and work could probably be arranged to keep them a certain distance from each other.
stefan_ 6y ago
This is the same car plant that produces triple the number of OSHA violations as any of its competitors (combined). If that plant has a record, it is one ignoring safety.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  A source: > A review by Forbes found 24 investigations by California Occupational Safety and Health Administration inspectors from 2014 to 2018, resulting in fines for 54 violations. These include new penalties that haven't yet hit the national online OSHA database, and they nearly double Tesla's fines over the last five years, to $236,730. * https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-safety-violations-dwarf-big-us-auto-plants-in-aftermath-of-musks-model-3-push/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-sa...
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    I don't think this is very damning nor unexpected. A plant with the degree of _change_ that Tesla has on its product line would likely have a very very dynamic production floor - resulting in more violations. It also seems that the OSHA rules were not designed for Tesla's unique processes, so many of those violations, if you actually read them, are not relevant to Tesla and have nothing to do with safety. This problem will go away as their plant process matures and as they are given the opportunity to comment on the next revision of the OSHA automotive plant rules. Also, there have been no deaths or serious injuries, so it's hard to argue that safety was actually compromised here.

foobar_ 6y ago

Is this like SARS or like flu ? SARS is no flu. In the recent Joe Rogan podcast Elon Musk was talking about the need for more accurate data. The scientific facts seem blurry at the moment. Watching the dutch news, the next steps seem to be a number of restrictions on the movements which seem sensible. Doctors have to deal with even more virues and infections. What needs to happen is, how can people work efficiently with protective gear. There is simply no other way to work otherwise, assuming this is a serious infection. The logical next steps would be to pass a law that forces each company to open work if they can give safety equipment to everyone and provides insurance / accurate assessments of the workers getting sick. Cost cutting and avoiding liabilities is just pathetic at this point.

dralley 6y ago
It's somewhere in between SARS and the Flu. Definitely much more deadly than the Flu, definitely less deadly than SARS (but more contagious).

eplanit 6y ago

Elon Musk is my new hero.

ydb 6y ago
Pfft. Elon has always been my hero. :) But on a more serious note, it is great that we are seeing thought leaders counter-act the media propaganda frenzy regarding this situation. The "big evil businessman" know best that our economy is on shaky ground, and that continuing social distancing measures will immeasurably damage America's position as a global power (and thus its citizens security and freedom) more than a few tens of thousands of deaths will. I, for one, am proud to go back to work. Staying at home isolated is merely fomenting unnecessary chaos and social unrest.
- throwaway4220 6y ago
  I am fortunate to be employed too, but I work in a closed space with little contact with others. Unless you work in a meatpacking plant, hospital, factory, or front-facing office, you may be taking on less risk than Tesla workers. In defense, Tesla did send an e-mail to the workers saying they could stay home if they are at risk, which is hats off to them. Is it legally defensible to use this if they get fired? I hope so. Man, I really liked Elon, until he started downplaying and dismissing the risk of COVID. It just didn't come from solid scientific reasoning in my view. Taken out of context, this lawsuit would have had me in full support of Tesla. But I now really have to question his motives behind employing people at Tesla.
valachio 6y ago
Yeah I didn't like much before. Then he went out and tweeted "tesla stock too high imo" and I was like yo. Paid more attention to him and began liking him more and more.

foob4r 6y ago

Cancelling my Tesla pre-order - this is an abuse of workers (more blatant than before).

throw0101a 6y ago
> this is an abuse of workers (more blatant than before). I don't know if I'd personally use the word "abuse", but a post in another forum noted some OSHA statistics: > In fact, data collected by Forbes shows that Tesla has accumulated more than three times the number of Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) violations that its top 10 competitors amassed from 2014-2018. * https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-many-osha-violations-as-the-10-largest-us-plants-combined https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-man... > A review by Forbes found 24 investigations by California Occupational Safety and Health Administration inspectors from 2014 to 2018, resulting in fines for 54 violations. These include new penalties that haven't yet hit the national online OSHA database, and they nearly double Tesla's fines over the last five years, to $236,730. * https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-safety-violations-dwarf-big-us-auto-plants-in-aftermath-of-musks-model-3-push/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-sa...
koheripbal 6y ago
Aside from being a meaningless anecdote, your claim is unproven. How are we supposed to know that you really had an order? Also, this comment is pure advocacy. We come here for analysis and depth.
- foob4r 6y ago
  I see you've posted this at least once more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 Seems like you're just spamming without staying relevant to the topic here.
abstractbarista 6y ago
I'm just about to place an order. Glad to cancel yours out. Tesla and everyone and thing that makes it up is awesome.

rayhendricks 6y ago

I don’t see any mention of background testing of Tesla workers. Testing everyone combined with guaranteed paid leave and a very strong statement from executives on non-retaliation for actually taking the leave will be just about the only way that they could re-open right now. Amazon is going to do this, why can’t Tesla?

theossuary 6y ago

This reminds me of a piece of this: https://chomsky.info/19960413/ https://chomsky.info/19960413/ Specifically, near the end > Meaning, setting up a picture — it’s called anti-politics — the picture — but a very specific kind of anti-politics — you have to establish the image, you know, get into people’s heads, that the Government is the enemy- the Federal Government. State Governments are okay, because they can be sort of controlled by business anyway, so it doesn’t matter. But the Federal Government is sometimes a little too big to be pushed around, so it’s the enemy. And it cannot be, nobody can dream of the possibility, that the Government is of, by, and for the people. That’s impossible. It’s an enemy to be hated and feared. While I don't necessarily disagree with it being the state's role to decide when and how to open back up, it does have its drawbacks. Companies can and (if Tesla is any indication) will use their influence with these states to open back up. The only thing left giving them pause is public opinion.

csomar 6y ago
Except that it's not the Federal or the State that's blocking Tesla. It's the county. So this argument would play otherwise.

babesh 6y ago

This is the very best article I have read on the lockdown: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leaders-let-scientists-take-the-lead-new-yorks-did-not https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leade... The positive is that Washington state acted early and the Bay Area followed quickly which resulted in lower hospitalization and deaths. Tech’s quick move to WFH probably helped slow the spread. This was driven by the Washington state health officials who worked with Microsoft. Bay Area tech companies quickly copied WFH. The negative is that health officials manipulated the public like they were children: “ Constantine told me, “Jeff recognized what he was asking for was impractical. He said if we advised social distancing right away there would be zero acceptance. And so the question was: What can we say today so that people will be ready to hear what we need to say tomorrow?” In e-mails and phone calls, the men began playing a game: What was the most extreme advice they could give that people wouldn’t scoff at? Considering what would likely be happening four days from then, what would they regret not having said?” Since the initial lockdown, it’s been more of the same. Slogans have changed: flatten the curve turns into prevent the health care system from being overrun which turns into driven by data. Lockdowns get extended: May 4 turns into June 1st and maybe beyond. Takeaways: 1. Health care officials were right to initially lock down. 2. Health care officials and government don’t respect the public. 3. This dynamic is coming home to roost. 4. Health care officials think this is going to last a long time.

zzleeper 6y ago
Had the US (at all govt levels) actually treated this seriously, as a health problem and not economic/political problem, we could be in a situation like Taiwan/NZ. The US is large, but mostly insulated, so this was feasible. But it would have required EVERYONE wearing masks, and no delays in locking things down (one day of delay in an exponential situation is like 4 more days of lockdown at the other end)
- rjzzleep 6y ago
  What's more is that since Taiwan published their email they sent to the WHO in December about the severeness of the threat and given the fact that the US is basically considered their only real ally, they almost certainly directly warned the US. Of course I doubt that they would ever say that in public given that they don't want to piss off their only big military ally with a vengeful president.

mchusma 6y ago

One important point in this discussion is that workers only have to return at their own discretion. Since no worker is being forced to work, the argument is best thought of as whether or not workers who chooses to work should be allowed to do so given Tesla's plan. They can also stay at home if they prefer, or seek other employment if they want to work but find Tesla's safety plan unconvincing.

mushbino 6y ago
Will workers still be eligible for unemployment insurance payments if they choose not to go back after Tesla opens?
- cjhopman 6y ago
  They won't, and that puts the lie to all these people saying it's no big deal and they don't have to go to work if they don't want to.
magic5227 6y ago
With record unemployment factory workers do not have such a luxury to just walk away if they dont like Tesla's plan. For most this is "lose your housing/food" or "risk getting Covid"
exolymph 6y ago
This is true but only in the narrowest possible sense, and one wonders why you felt it was worth noting.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

awinder 6y ago

Is there any reason to believe that taking temperature is going to effectively curb virus transmissions? I would assume you’d be well into spreading by the point you started running a fever.