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Tesla vs Alameda County [pdf]

50 points by xoxoy 6y ago

newacct583 6y ago
I don't know that this is that notable, is it? Surely there are dozens or hundreds of suits all over the country from businesses quibbling over their non/categorization as essential? It's a pandemic. No one wins here. No policy can be completely fair. Hell, I have opinions about everything and I genuinely don't know that I can find one about this situation. Obviously Tesla (and every employer) wants to open. The county wants people to stay home. Some exceptions get made. Should Tesla be one? Meh.
- nutjob2 6y ago
  It's not just the county, people want to stay home to avoid getting sick. Musk should be taking steps to improve virus safety on his lines instead of this sort of Trumpian vilification and lawsuiting. Obviously the later is much easier and much cheaper than the former. I agree that it's not notable.
- danso 6y ago
  Which of those businesses are as large or well-known (i.e. notable) as Tesla? And no I don't think it's that widespread yet because a Texas salon owner who defied the state order (and was jailed for contempt of court) made national news last week, and Gov. Abbott modified the state order in response to the case: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/shelley-luther-dallas-salon-owner-released-jail/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/shelley-luther-dallas-salon-own...
- aguyfromnb 6y ago
  You don't think a controversial, SV darling CEO suing to allow his non essential business to open amidst a pandemic is notable? What about his public attacks on the civil servants involved in determine the rules for public safety? What about the fact he's decrying "unelected officials" and "fascism" in the US,while praising the CCP and expanding Chinese production? It's unbelievable people continue to defend this man here.
  - pmorici 6y ago
    If the factory is operating safely in China w/o employees getting sick why isn’t it possible in the USA?
    - newacct583 6y ago
      Objectively it's because the Chinese outbreak is well controlled at this point without lockdown measures. Alameda isn't there yet, though the Bay Area is closer than many areas in the US which are still growing.
      - pmorici 6y ago
        The Chinese outbreak was much less controlled when they allowed the China factory to reopen.
    - aguyfromnb 6y ago
      What does one thing have to do with the other? The public health officials who, believe it or not know more about this than Elon Musk,said they want specific metrics met before opening. Period. So Elon did what he does and is bullying them. He called the public health official in charge, a pediatrician at Oakland's Childrens Hospital "ignorant" and "unelected". His horrible fanbase is loving it,and spamming the Alameda County offices with complaints. Why doesn't he say that about the officials in China? He'd be out on his ass, that's why.
      - pmorici 6y ago
        Because it shows that in a country with a bad outbreak a factory of similar makeup can be operated without exacerbating an outbreak. They reopened the factory in China well before cases were zero in China.
  - georgeburdell 6y ago
    Do you have a source where he specifically praised the CCP? This is surprising to hear.
danso 6y ago
Off-topic: I haven't downloaded many legal PDFs lately, but whatever legal software was used to make this one seems to obfuscate the text? The PDF seems like a normal text PDF (as opposed to scanned images), and you can highlight lines of text, but copy-pasting it results in gibberish; find-text-in-document is likewise borked. Using `pdftotext' generates a mostly empty file, though Google Docs conversion manages to extract and preserve the text. I bring this up because the document has several URLs which are non-clickable and non-copy-pastable. I know PDFs can be encoded in away in that the visual layout of the content is completely different to the underlying data, this was just the first time I've seen such obfuscation. edit: here's a normally-behaving copy of the PDF from one of the SF local news stations: https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15116056/2020/05/Tesla-Incorporated-v.-County-of-Alameda-5-9-20.pdf https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/1... Assuming the TV station has uploaded the PDF straight from the source (Tesla's lawyers, or the county court system), then maybe the site wholemars.com re-processed its copy of the PDF? In any case, the text/data obfuscation is pretty interesting and I sure hope it doesn't become a standard practice! (I don't blame the OP for posting the wholemars.com link; that was the first I saw of the lawsuit too, at least on Twitter)
- Operyl 6y ago
  I have to wonder if there's any rules that would be violated by crap like this in the courts. It's 100% to prevent other lawyers from copy-pasting things, and that's absurd since it's defeated by OCR. It's extremely not accessible to the blind as a result.
  - netsharc 6y ago
    It also makes it invisible to search engines. Google "Tesla COVID-19 lawsuit" and this PDF will not show up...
    - Operyl 6y ago
      The curious thing is not _everything_ is obscured. Namely, `Attorneys for Plaintiff Tesla, Inc. ` isn't. Either is `Identifying Critical Infrastructure During Covid-19` So eventually this is probably going to get indexed by Google. EDIT: It is already! https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Identifying+Critical+Infrastructure+During+Covid-19%22+%22tesla%22&oq=%22Identifying+Critical+Infrastructure+During+Covid-19%22+%22tesla%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Identifying+Critical+Infr... EDIT 2: Why the downvotes already? I was pointing out that not all text is obfuscated in the text, namely COVID and Tesla are not. So it _is_ going to get indexed to some extent, it seems. If you want to downvote me, at least give me the courtesy to reply to your reasoning for it! EDIT 3: You can check it yourself. Open the PDF, ctrl+f tesla, the only sentence unobscured shows up. ctrl+f for Covid-19, only one unobfuscated occurrence..
ProAm 6y ago
Just move then, dont threaten, don't sue. Just make the change, its cheaper and faster.
- youeseh 6y ago
  It's cheaper to sue and win.
  - ProAm 6y ago
    Not with the government. If you win you now have soured relationships that will last terms and terms.
- nutjob2 6y ago
  Probably not cheaper once the workplace safety lawsuits start rolling in.
- pmorici 6y ago
  They already said they are planning too but what’s done is done.
- WatchDog 6y ago
  Cheaper to move a factory and staff than sue?
KarlKemp 6y ago
Edit: I was a little late in noticing a "show more" link at the bottom of the list that Google gave me for [16 critical infrastructure sectors] and found "Transportation Equipment Manufacturing" is also among the 16. So consider the below moot. In spite of my sympathy for Tesla in general and maybe even their wish to resume operations in particular, their arguments, as I understand it, doesn't seem to be very convincing? It appears to hinge on the categorisation, with Tesla's view being that they belong in the "Energy Sector", which is among the "16 critical infrastructure sectors" exempt from any requirements to shut down. While I guess you can draw a connection of Tesla with the energy sector if you're doing so in a complete vacuum, it is entirely obvious that, when the "energy sector" was exempt from closure, it was based on a definition that under no circumstances would include Tesla. I. e.: power plants and gas stations obviously need to stay open for reasons that just don't apply to manufacturing cars.
- ProAm 6y ago
  He is just being selfish. Everyone wants to get back to work. Public confidence (stock price, etc) in Tesla has hinged on quarterly performance for awhile, and they dont have an extremely long runway. It make sense he wants to get back to work, so does everyone, but it's just not wise.
  - pmorici 6y ago
    Short runway? They have like 2 years of cash on hand and a better debt to cash ratio than any other US automaker.
    - ProAm 6y ago
      I think 2 years is not a lot with debt obligations during a pandemic that is slated to crush the auto industry.
- netsharc 6y ago
  Yeah, IANAL, but this document doesn't sound to have been written by someone punching arguments, it sounds more like a whiny teenager. On top of page 2 it somehow claims a car factory is permitted to operate because this FAQ says so: >My business installs distributed solar, storage, and/or electric vehicle charging systems – can it continue to operate? > Yes, this is permissible construction activity and must comply with the Construction Project Safety Protocols in Appendix B of the Order. Businesses may also operate to manufacture distributed energy resource components, like solar panels. I guess they're going to go to court over the definition of "distributed energy resource components". Tesla cars are consumers (also storers) of (electrical) energy resources, but a gas-powered car does the same for energy stored in gasoline. If they let this in, then I could argue that my battery-powered phone is also an "energy resource component"...
yalogin 6y ago
Tesla compared to their competition is actually doing very well even during the pandemic. So Musk would not be hurt even if its shut down. It’s disappointing that a man of science, who understands data is throwing a fit like this.
- netsharc 6y ago
  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." ― Upton Sinclair, a once failed candidate for the Governor of California
contemporary343 6y ago
I am curious how Tesla employees feel about this, and more generally Musk's continuous and baffling insistence that the coronavirus is no big deal. (Heck, it seems like until and unless this wipes out > 10% of humanity it seems like he'll keep saying 'no big deal') It's one thing if your company and its CEO acknowledge the seriousness of the situation and develop a plausible contingency plan, including masks and random asymptomatic testing. But he seems rather unconcerned about such pedestrian matters and has decided it's a nothingburger and all hype. Has Tesla actually proposed a reasonable plan to do this while Alameda county is seeing a spike in new cases?
- monk_e_boy 6y ago
  He does seem a little petulant. As soon as things don't go his way he stamps his little feet in anger. But I guess that's part of why he's so successful, he just blasts through any kind of roadblock. Straight to the nuclear option. If he really believes Corvig-19 is nothing then his actions make sense. But he's a smart guy, and he must understand it's dangerous... maybe he just doesn't care if people die? Or maybe Tesla succeeding and his cars end up saving more lives than a factory shutting down for a few weeks would? It's an ugly side to him, that's for sure. [edit] My neighbour works in ICU and we have few cases here. He has now caught Corvid-19 and is really ill. My neighbour is late 40's and is training for an iron man, so he's pretty darn fit. This is a dangerous bug, that's for sure.
- pmorici 6y ago
  Seems to me like they do have a plan and experience that whatever measures they will take work based on the fact that they have been operating the Tesla China factory safely for months now. He has never said "don't take precautions" and assuming he means that is probably a mistake. Edit: they have a 38 page plan on their website https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T...
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    Tesla just closed their Shanghai factory and is being evasive about why. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/07/tesla-reportedly-halts-car-production-at-chinese-factory.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/07/tesla-reportedly-halts-car-p... I don’t know anything about how Tesla is dealing with this in their factory, but nothing about Musk’s recent comments suggest rational consideration or cautious planning.
creato 6y ago
Neighboring counties have already allowed work like construction to resume. Is a car factory really that different in terms of risk? Just based on the sheer size of the facilities, I can't imagine the density of people is that high, and due to at least some of the work going on, ventilation is probably good. It definitely makes sense to keep businesses like bars and restaurants closed given their nature as a "hub" in the graph of human contacts, but we also need to allow what work we can to continue as long as it doesn't contribute to significant spread of the virus. At the same time, last I saw, car sales had fallen off a cliff. Is there much point to aggressively reopening if those cars can't be sold? But that's a question for Tesla to answer, not Alameda County.
- steelframe 6y ago
  > ventilation is probably good I'm not clear on what ventilation being "probably good" means in the context of reducing SARS-Cov-2 exposure to a safe level. What if the air is recirculated and the filters don't capture enough of the virus?
  - xyzzyz 6y ago
    Nobody knows anything for certain. We do not even have good data on mask effectiveness. The basis of all the restrictions is already a gut feeling/whim of the governors, not any concrete scientific data about what works and what doesn’t. Asking whether air conditioning system is good enough doesn’t make sense if we don’t even know what’s good enough. Nobody is doing any studies in that direction anyway, so we’ll never know. I don’t know if lockdowns and restrictions make any practical difference or not, but people affected are definitely justified in complaining about large degree of arbitrariness in all of it. For example, NYC is still running subway and never stopped through all of it. Sure, people are relying on it to get places in New York, but so is everyone else in this country relying on their job to make a living, and yet many of their jobs were banned just like that.
    - dominotw 6y ago
      New infections in NY i heard are majority 76% from ppl staying indoors. Not sure how are they are getting it, from recirculated air in apt complexes?
dang 6y ago
Two threads on this already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 Not sure this is likely to go any better.
- xoxoy 6y ago
  It’s the actual lawsuit though. Much more substantive.
  - dang 6y ago
    Yes, and the hope is that it would support a better thread.
- danso 6y ago
  The legal reasoning seems like interesting discussion, would've been nice if he had the legal filing ready and linked at the time he made his first tweet threat.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
georgeburdell 6y ago
For what it's worth, Fremont, the city where Tesla is located, appears more sympathetic to the company http://www.fremont.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=1768 http://www.fremont.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=1768
jacknews 6y ago
how is car manufacturing 'critical infrastructure'? Is the case number, 'Case 4:20-cv-03186' significant?
- pmorici 6y ago
  The list of critical infrastructure industries is outlined in this federal government document... https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical-infrastructure-workforce https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical... It lists among other things... "Workers critical to the manufacturing, distribution, sales, rental, leasing, repair, and maintenance of vehicles and other transportation equipment (including electric vehicle charging stations) and the supply chains that enable these operations to facilitate continuity of travel-related operations for essential workers."
  - jacknews 6y ago
    I don't think this really covers manufacture of general consumer passenger vehicles. The intent is clearly to maintain transportation capability for genuinely critical workers (healthcare, food distribution and sales, police and emergency, etc). If their tesla breaks down, there is no need to manufacture a new one, they can just grab one from the sales lot.
    - pmorici 6y ago
      It definitely does, you are reading way to much into it. Look at the full list. How do you think all the other essential workers are going to get to and from work?
      - jacknews 6y ago
        Well i don't think they are going to buy a new car for the purpose. Even if they did, there are many already-manufactured waiting to be sold.
        6y ago
rrss 6y ago
Is this legal argument actually any good? It seems like the major claim is that Alameda County's order "overrides an express order of the Governor of California," which doesn't make much sense to me. Newsom's order said that individuals working in critical infrastructure sectors are exempt from staying at home. I don't see how Alameda County saying Tesla must stay closed contradicts Newsom saying Tesla employees could go to work, if their workplace was open. Seems sorta weaksauce to interpret an exemption for individuals from a stay at home order as a order than Tesla must remain open. Anyway, seems like a mess, will be interesting to see what happens with this.
- pmorici 6y ago
  The exemption for individuals is so that they can go to work what good would it be if their work place was closed?
  - rrss 6y ago
    My thinking is that the exemption allows for counties to have the opportunity to allow those businesses in critical infrastructure sectors to stay open. The order says that employees "may continue their work," and Tesla's lawsuit seems to interpret that to mean that Tesla must stay open. I'm obviously not a lawyer, I'm just interested in if the argument in the complaint is likely to get them anywhere.
elwell 6y ago
Suing the government for COVID closure only six days after tweeting "Minecraft has amazing legs"
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dmode 6y ago
Sigh, it is kind of embarrassing for me that I was a fan of this guy and even own a Tesla. Elon has gone off the rocks quite and bit and now is a straight up loon. He is now full on spreading FUD, which is weird considering the amount of FUD That was spread against Tesla for a while

50 points by xoxoy 6y ago

I don't know that this is that notable, is it? Surely there are dozens or hundreds of suits all over the country from businesses quibbling over their non/categorization as essential? It's a pandemic. No one wins here. No policy can be completely fair. Hell, I have opinions about everything and I genuinely don't know that I can find one about this situation. Obviously Tesla (and every employer) wants to open. The county wants people to stay home. Some exceptions get made. Should Tesla be one? Meh.

nutjob2 6y ago
It's not just the county, people want to stay home to avoid getting sick. Musk should be taking steps to improve virus safety on his lines instead of this sort of Trumpian vilification and lawsuiting. Obviously the later is much easier and much cheaper than the former. I agree that it's not notable.
danso 6y ago
Which of those businesses are as large or well-known (i.e. notable) as Tesla? And no I don't think it's that widespread yet because a Texas salon owner who defied the state order (and was jailed for contempt of court) made national news last week, and Gov. Abbott modified the state order in response to the case: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/shelley-luther-dallas-salon-owner-released-jail/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/shelley-luther-dallas-salon-own...
aguyfromnb 6y ago
You don't think a controversial, SV darling CEO suing to allow his non essential business to open amidst a pandemic is notable? What about his public attacks on the civil servants involved in determine the rules for public safety? What about the fact he's decrying "unelected officials" and "fascism" in the US,while praising the CCP and expanding Chinese production? It's unbelievable people continue to defend this man here.
- pmorici 6y ago
  If the factory is operating safely in China w/o employees getting sick why isn’t it possible in the USA?
  - newacct583 6y ago
    Objectively it's because the Chinese outbreak is well controlled at this point without lockdown measures. Alameda isn't there yet, though the Bay Area is closer than many areas in the US which are still growing.
    - pmorici 6y ago
      The Chinese outbreak was much less controlled when they allowed the China factory to reopen.
  - aguyfromnb 6y ago
    What does one thing have to do with the other? The public health officials who, believe it or not know more about this than Elon Musk,said they want specific metrics met before opening. Period. So Elon did what he does and is bullying them. He called the public health official in charge, a pediatrician at Oakland's Childrens Hospital "ignorant" and "unelected". His horrible fanbase is loving it,and spamming the Alameda County offices with complaints. Why doesn't he say that about the officials in China? He'd be out on his ass, that's why.
    - pmorici 6y ago
      Because it shows that in a country with a bad outbreak a factory of similar makeup can be operated without exacerbating an outbreak. They reopened the factory in China well before cases were zero in China.
- georgeburdell 6y ago
  Do you have a source where he specifically praised the CCP? This is surprising to hear.

danso 6y ago

Off-topic: I haven't downloaded many legal PDFs lately, but whatever legal software was used to make this one seems to obfuscate the text? The PDF seems like a normal text PDF (as opposed to scanned images), and you can highlight lines of text, but copy-pasting it results in gibberish; find-text-in-document is likewise borked. Using `pdftotext' generates a mostly empty file, though Google Docs conversion manages to extract and preserve the text. I bring this up because the document has several URLs which are non-clickable and non-copy-pastable. I know PDFs can be encoded in away in that the visual layout of the content is completely different to the underlying data, this was just the first time I've seen such obfuscation. edit: here's a normally-behaving copy of the PDF from one of the SF local news stations: https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15116056/2020/05/Tesla-Incorporated-v.-County-of-Alameda-5-9-20.pdf https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/1... Assuming the TV station has uploaded the PDF straight from the source (Tesla's lawyers, or the county court system), then maybe the site wholemars.com re-processed its copy of the PDF? In any case, the text/data obfuscation is pretty interesting and I sure hope it doesn't become a standard practice! (I don't blame the OP for posting the wholemars.com link; that was the first I saw of the lawsuit too, at least on Twitter)

Operyl 6y ago
I have to wonder if there's any rules that would be violated by crap like this in the courts. It's 100% to prevent other lawyers from copy-pasting things, and that's absurd since it's defeated by OCR. It's extremely not accessible to the blind as a result.
- netsharc 6y ago
  It also makes it invisible to search engines. Google "Tesla COVID-19 lawsuit" and this PDF will not show up...
  - Operyl 6y ago
    The curious thing is not _everything_ is obscured. Namely, `Attorneys for Plaintiff Tesla, Inc. ` isn't. Either is `Identifying Critical Infrastructure During Covid-19` So eventually this is probably going to get indexed by Google. EDIT: It is already! https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Identifying+Critical+Infrastructure+During+Covid-19%22+%22tesla%22&oq=%22Identifying+Critical+Infrastructure+During+Covid-19%22+%22tesla%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Identifying+Critical+Infr... EDIT 2: Why the downvotes already? I was pointing out that not all text is obfuscated in the text, namely COVID and Tesla are not. So it _is_ going to get indexed to some extent, it seems. If you want to downvote me, at least give me the courtesy to reply to your reasoning for it! EDIT 3: You can check it yourself. Open the PDF, ctrl+f tesla, the only sentence unobscured shows up. ctrl+f for Covid-19, only one unobfuscated occurrence..

ProAm 6y ago

Just move then, dont threaten, don't sue. Just make the change, its cheaper and faster.

youeseh 6y ago
It's cheaper to sue and win.
- ProAm 6y ago
  Not with the government. If you win you now have soured relationships that will last terms and terms.
nutjob2 6y ago
Probably not cheaper once the workplace safety lawsuits start rolling in.
pmorici 6y ago
They already said they are planning too but what’s done is done.
WatchDog 6y ago
Cheaper to move a factory and staff than sue?

KarlKemp 6y ago

Edit: I was a little late in noticing a "show more" link at the bottom of the list that Google gave me for [16 critical infrastructure sectors] and found "Transportation Equipment Manufacturing" is also among the 16. So consider the below moot. In spite of my sympathy for Tesla in general and maybe even their wish to resume operations in particular, their arguments, as I understand it, doesn't seem to be very convincing? It appears to hinge on the categorisation, with Tesla's view being that they belong in the "Energy Sector", which is among the "16 critical infrastructure sectors" exempt from any requirements to shut down. While I guess you can draw a connection of Tesla with the energy sector if you're doing so in a complete vacuum, it is entirely obvious that, when the "energy sector" was exempt from closure, it was based on a definition that under no circumstances would include Tesla. I. e.: power plants and gas stations obviously need to stay open for reasons that just don't apply to manufacturing cars.

ProAm 6y ago
He is just being selfish. Everyone wants to get back to work. Public confidence (stock price, etc) in Tesla has hinged on quarterly performance for awhile, and they dont have an extremely long runway. It make sense he wants to get back to work, so does everyone, but it's just not wise.
- pmorici 6y ago
  Short runway? They have like 2 years of cash on hand and a better debt to cash ratio than any other US automaker.
  - ProAm 6y ago
    I think 2 years is not a lot with debt obligations during a pandemic that is slated to crush the auto industry.
netsharc 6y ago
Yeah, IANAL, but this document doesn't sound to have been written by someone punching arguments, it sounds more like a whiny teenager. On top of page 2 it somehow claims a car factory is permitted to operate because this FAQ says so: >My business installs distributed solar, storage, and/or electric vehicle charging systems – can it continue to operate? > Yes, this is permissible construction activity and must comply with the Construction Project Safety Protocols in Appendix B of the Order. Businesses may also operate to manufacture distributed energy resource components, like solar panels. I guess they're going to go to court over the definition of "distributed energy resource components". Tesla cars are consumers (also storers) of (electrical) energy resources, but a gas-powered car does the same for energy stored in gasoline. If they let this in, then I could argue that my battery-powered phone is also an "energy resource component"...

yalogin 6y ago

Tesla compared to their competition is actually doing very well even during the pandemic. So Musk would not be hurt even if its shut down. It’s disappointing that a man of science, who understands data is throwing a fit like this.

netsharc 6y ago
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." ― Upton Sinclair, a once failed candidate for the Governor of California

contemporary343 6y ago

I am curious how Tesla employees feel about this, and more generally Musk's continuous and baffling insistence that the coronavirus is no big deal. (Heck, it seems like until and unless this wipes out > 10% of humanity it seems like he'll keep saying 'no big deal') It's one thing if your company and its CEO acknowledge the seriousness of the situation and develop a plausible contingency plan, including masks and random asymptomatic testing. But he seems rather unconcerned about such pedestrian matters and has decided it's a nothingburger and all hype. Has Tesla actually proposed a reasonable plan to do this while Alameda county is seeing a spike in new cases?

monk_e_boy 6y ago
He does seem a little petulant. As soon as things don't go his way he stamps his little feet in anger. But I guess that's part of why he's so successful, he just blasts through any kind of roadblock. Straight to the nuclear option. If he really believes Corvig-19 is nothing then his actions make sense. But he's a smart guy, and he must understand it's dangerous... maybe he just doesn't care if people die? Or maybe Tesla succeeding and his cars end up saving more lives than a factory shutting down for a few weeks would? It's an ugly side to him, that's for sure. [edit] My neighbour works in ICU and we have few cases here. He has now caught Corvid-19 and is really ill. My neighbour is late 40's and is training for an iron man, so he's pretty darn fit. This is a dangerous bug, that's for sure.
pmorici 6y ago
Seems to me like they do have a plan and experience that whatever measures they will take work based on the fact that they have been operating the Tesla China factory safely for months now. He has never said "don't take precautions" and assuming he means that is probably a mistake. Edit: they have a 38 page plan on their website https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T...
- claudeganon 6y ago
  Tesla just closed their Shanghai factory and is being evasive about why. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/07/tesla-reportedly-halts-car-production-at-chinese-factory.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/07/tesla-reportedly-halts-car-p... I don’t know anything about how Tesla is dealing with this in their factory, but nothing about Musk’s recent comments suggest rational consideration or cautious planning.

creato 6y ago

Neighboring counties have already allowed work like construction to resume. Is a car factory really that different in terms of risk? Just based on the sheer size of the facilities, I can't imagine the density of people is that high, and due to at least some of the work going on, ventilation is probably good. It definitely makes sense to keep businesses like bars and restaurants closed given their nature as a "hub" in the graph of human contacts, but we also need to allow what work we can to continue as long as it doesn't contribute to significant spread of the virus. At the same time, last I saw, car sales had fallen off a cliff. Is there much point to aggressively reopening if those cars can't be sold? But that's a question for Tesla to answer, not Alameda County.

steelframe 6y ago
> ventilation is probably good I'm not clear on what ventilation being "probably good" means in the context of reducing SARS-Cov-2 exposure to a safe level. What if the air is recirculated and the filters don't capture enough of the virus?
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  Nobody knows anything for certain. We do not even have good data on mask effectiveness. The basis of all the restrictions is already a gut feeling/whim of the governors, not any concrete scientific data about what works and what doesn’t. Asking whether air conditioning system is good enough doesn’t make sense if we don’t even know what’s good enough. Nobody is doing any studies in that direction anyway, so we’ll never know. I don’t know if lockdowns and restrictions make any practical difference or not, but people affected are definitely justified in complaining about large degree of arbitrariness in all of it. For example, NYC is still running subway and never stopped through all of it. Sure, people are relying on it to get places in New York, but so is everyone else in this country relying on their job to make a living, and yet many of their jobs were banned just like that.
  - dominotw 6y ago
    New infections in NY i heard are majority 76% from ppl staying indoors. Not sure how are they are getting it, from recirculated air in apt complexes?

dang 6y ago

Two threads on this already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 Not sure this is likely to go any better.

xoxoy 6y ago
It’s the actual lawsuit though. Much more substantive.
- dang 6y ago
  Yes, and the hope is that it would support a better thread.
danso 6y ago
The legal reasoning seems like interesting discussion, would've been nice if he had the legal filing ready and linked at the time he made his first tweet threat.

deleted 6y ago

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georgeburdell 6y ago

For what it's worth, Fremont, the city where Tesla is located, appears more sympathetic to the company http://www.fremont.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=1768 http://www.fremont.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=1768

jacknews 6y ago

how is car manufacturing 'critical infrastructure'? Is the case number, 'Case 4:20-cv-03186' significant?

pmorici 6y ago
The list of critical infrastructure industries is outlined in this federal government document... https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical-infrastructure-workforce https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical... It lists among other things... "Workers critical to the manufacturing, distribution, sales, rental, leasing, repair, and maintenance of vehicles and other transportation equipment (including electric vehicle charging stations) and the supply chains that enable these operations to facilitate continuity of travel-related operations for essential workers."
- jacknews 6y ago
  I don't think this really covers manufacture of general consumer passenger vehicles. The intent is clearly to maintain transportation capability for genuinely critical workers (healthcare, food distribution and sales, police and emergency, etc). If their tesla breaks down, there is no need to manufacture a new one, they can just grab one from the sales lot.
  - pmorici 6y ago
    It definitely does, you are reading way to much into it. Look at the full list. How do you think all the other essential workers are going to get to and from work?
    - jacknews 6y ago
      Well i don't think they are going to buy a new car for the purpose. Even if they did, there are many already-manufactured waiting to be sold.
      - 6y ago

rrss 6y ago

Is this legal argument actually any good? It seems like the major claim is that Alameda County's order "overrides an express order of the Governor of California," which doesn't make much sense to me. Newsom's order said that individuals working in critical infrastructure sectors are exempt from staying at home. I don't see how Alameda County saying Tesla must stay closed contradicts Newsom saying Tesla employees could go to work, if their workplace was open. Seems sorta weaksauce to interpret an exemption for individuals from a stay at home order as a order than Tesla must remain open. Anyway, seems like a mess, will be interesting to see what happens with this.

pmorici 6y ago
The exemption for individuals is so that they can go to work what good would it be if their work place was closed?
- rrss 6y ago
  My thinking is that the exemption allows for counties to have the opportunity to allow those businesses in critical infrastructure sectors to stay open. The order says that employees "may continue their work," and Tesla's lawsuit seems to interpret that to mean that Tesla must stay open. I'm obviously not a lawyer, I'm just interested in if the argument in the complaint is likely to get them anywhere.

elwell 6y ago

Suing the government for COVID closure only six days after tweeting "Minecraft has amazing legs"

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dmode 6y ago

Sigh, it is kind of embarrassing for me that I was a fan of this guy and even own a Tesla. Elon has gone off the rocks quite and bit and now is a straight up loon. He is now full on spreading FUD, which is weird considering the amount of FUD That was spread against Tesla for a while