5 ms·

He seems pretty much the same to me, honestly. Everything he is doing seems either to the benefit of the companies he is building, or personally weird but ultim

by jdross 6y ago

He seems pretty much the same to me, honestly. Everything he is doing seems either to the benefit of the companies he is building, or personally weird but ultimately harmless. Moving out of a state that won't let you run your business seems like a very savvy move for a person whose job is running a business and growing it as quickly as possible (which he would say is in order to accelerate the shift to a sustainable energy future, which you can agree with or not) I'm genuinely confused by the animosity

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I think it's dangerous and toxic in general for billionaires to threaten economic retribution when the government doesn't enact their preferred policies. I continue to think that here, even though I generally like this particular billionaire and agree with the policy position he's fighting for.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  You do what must be done. If the government provided more support to businesses due to COVID shutdown, this wouldn’t have been necessary. This is a Federal government failure manifestation. Elon is trying to save his business he’s worked two decades on. I can’t fault him. Airlines and Ford (pinnacles of responsible business operations /s) getting bailed out by the Fed through junk bond liquidity operations? Why not Tesla too?
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    It's even worse for billionaires to threaten economic retribution because the government didn't give them enough money.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      I agree with Elon (from his latest interview with Joe Rogan) that billionaires get a lot of shit (which is why he’s going minimalist nomad supposedly, to deflect criticism by eliminating anything ostentatious in his life). Almost all of them deserve it, but Musk, Gates, and Buffett don’t (all for various yet obvious reasons). They are in a different class. Arguably, we still want those billionaires to succeed, but we also want taxes paid and workers protected across the board. I don’t think that’s unreasonable, but complex problems and their solutions are hard to discuss at scale because of entrenched interests, sound bites, the twenty four hour news cycle, and people acting in bad faith.
      - andrepd 6y ago
        > we still want those billionaires to succeed, but we also want taxes paid and workers protected across the board We want taxes paid and workers protected, so we want tax-evading and union-busting billionaires to succeed.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        jdross 6y ago
        No, we want better lives for ourselves and the people around us and coming after us. Taxes and worker welfare are two tools we can deploy towards that goal. A company is a voluntary organizational tool, and when run as well as Tesla is, an extremely effective one at accomplishing a goal.
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    That's the federal government? Or is it all "The Government".
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      The United States Federal government by way of the CARES stimulus act, funded using Federal Reserve lending operations. States don’t control the currency, nor have the budgets to backstop large cap firms in economic distress.
- Foober223 6y ago
  Is it dangerous and toxic when the state government threatens/acts to confiscate more of your earnings?
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    It's the county government he's mad at here, but yes, that's also bad. Alameda County should let him run the factory unless they have some reason to believe they're in more danger than the rest of the state.
  - alpha_squared 6y ago
    > Is it dangerous and toxic when the state government threatens/acts to confiscate more of your earnings? If you're talking about taxes, that's an awfully entitled phrasing.
    - stale2002 6y ago
      And it is equally "entitled" to think that the government owns those businesses, and something is being taken away from the government, when those businesses decide to voluntarily move somewhere else.
  - fzeroracer 6y ago
    For one, this isn't the state government. This is a local government choosing to enact things of its own volition. If you believe in small government, then obviously this is the ideal scenario for delegation of authority is it not? And second, the people voted in said local government. So isn't it going against the spirit of America (and Democracy in general) to threaten elected officials for doing what the people elected them to do?
    - Foober223 6y ago
      The "threat" is to not play in their sandbox after they change the rules. People can of course vote to take more of your earnings. But it's fair to leave when the rules change, it's a broken contract.
- mft_ 6y ago
  Look, he's clearly having a hissy fit, which isn't the best look for any CEO. But you saying "billionaire" here is pejorative and unnecessary. How about "...for CEOs to threaten moving their economic operations to places where governments are more hospitable". Still dangerous and toxic?
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    The problem I see here really is that he has a lot of money. If billionaires get their way by threatening dire consequences, it creates the perception that rules and regulations are for sale to sufficiently high bidders, or even worse that billionaires can create company towns which must pass whatever regulations they want. If the CEO of some 100 person company tweets out "screw you guys I'm moving to Texas", I think that's fine. Even if the state makes changes in response, nobody's going to think that his money alone was the deciding factor.
    - mft_ 6y ago
      The reason his threat is credible is because he runs a large business which brings jobs and prosperity to the states that it operates in. In this case, him being rich is irrelevant, as he’s not threatening to use his personal wealth.
forgot_again 6y ago
Things started to turn against him when he began to appear sympathetic to the American political Right and Trump in particular.
jmcguckin 6y ago
Not to mention that California is in quite the financial pickle. Taxes in the near future are headed up for groups that politicians love to badmouth, e.g. corporations and the wealthy.
paulgb 6y ago
> I'm genuinely confused by the animosity To me, it's because this stinks in the same way as Bezos playing cities off each other to extract concessions. He's even asking fans and shareholders to sue the county[1] and reach out to politicians[2]. A county has made a decision, presumably in good faith, in the interest of public health. You don't have to agree with their decision, but throwing your weight around as a billionaire to spite them for it is a bad look. 1: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259165058426232832 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259165058426232832 2: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259174414865719296 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259174414865719296 Edit: fixed reference link (thanks mft_).
- rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
  >A county has made a decision, presumably in good faith, in the interest of public health. This can be debated, right? I'm not sure what's the problem with the management of a company saying they're moving a headquarter because they believe they can better operate elsewhere, or asking other people who feel negatively impacted to consider a legal actions (unless you don't trust the legal system, but that's another matter I guess).
  - paulgb 6y ago
    Of course it can. Is there evidence of bad faith on the county's part? I'm open to updating my beliefs.
    - jdross 6y ago
      It's not required. He's making a decision that business is best conducted elsewhere, as is his right. Personally, I don't want to live in a country where unelected officials can unilaterally make decisions that shut down the economy and kill my business and life's work. I'd certainly have a lot to say about it
      - paulgb 6y ago
        > Personally, I don't want to live in a country where unelected officials can unilaterally make decisions that shut down the economy and kill my business and life's work. Same, but I also wouldn't want to live in a county whose officials are afraid to make decisions that are in the best interest of the people's health out of fear of the wrath of a billionaire and his followers. If he wants to move the plant I have no problem with that, it's the way he's trying to use his position for outsized political pressure that I dislike.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Fricken 6y ago
He's seems pretty much the same to me too, but that's only because I have personal experience with high-functioning narcissists, and I can spot a tiger king from a mile away.
dkersten 6y ago
> ultimately harmless Like calling an innocent person a pedophile?
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  A court ruled that Elon did not defame the individual, and no damages were awarded. Sounds harmless despite being in extremely poor taste. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/06/unsworth-vs-musk-pedo-guy-defamation-trial-verdict.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/06/unsworth-vs-musk-pedo-guy-de...
  - mcculley 6y ago
    A court ruling in his favor doesn't make his behavior any less repugnant. I'm both a fan and a critic of Musk. If he had insulted me that way, I would break his nose. It's unacceptable.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      I have found it helpful to not judge people on their worst days. We all make mistakes. I hope Elon finds humility with time, but if not, will still appreciate his contributions.
      - mcculley 6y ago
        Did Musk apologize to that man when he was done having a bad day?
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        I don’t think that man apologized to Elon for telling him to shove his sub up his ass either (which is what kicked off the spat).
- belltaco 6y ago
  Yes, it was in response to that person telling Musk to shove his minisub up his ass.

by jdross 6y ago

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

I think it's dangerous and toxic in general for billionaires to threaten economic retribution when the government doesn't enact their preferred policies. I continue to think that here, even though I generally like this particular billionaire and agree with the policy position he's fighting for.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
You do what must be done. If the government provided more support to businesses due to COVID shutdown, this wouldn’t have been necessary. This is a Federal government failure manifestation. Elon is trying to save his business he’s worked two decades on. I can’t fault him. Airlines and Ford (pinnacles of responsible business operations /s) getting bailed out by the Fed through junk bond liquidity operations? Why not Tesla too?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It's even worse for billionaires to threaten economic retribution because the government didn't give them enough money.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I agree with Elon (from his latest interview with Joe Rogan) that billionaires get a lot of shit (which is why he’s going minimalist nomad supposedly, to deflect criticism by eliminating anything ostentatious in his life). Almost all of them deserve it, but Musk, Gates, and Buffett don’t (all for various yet obvious reasons). They are in a different class. Arguably, we still want those billionaires to succeed, but we also want taxes paid and workers protected across the board. I don’t think that’s unreasonable, but complex problems and their solutions are hard to discuss at scale because of entrenched interests, sound bites, the twenty four hour news cycle, and people acting in bad faith.
    - andrepd 6y ago
      > we still want those billionaires to succeed, but we also want taxes paid and workers protected across the board We want taxes paid and workers protected, so we want tax-evading and union-busting billionaires to succeed.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - jdross 6y ago
        No, we want better lives for ourselves and the people around us and coming after us. Taxes and worker welfare are two tools we can deploy towards that goal. A company is a voluntary organizational tool, and when run as well as Tesla is, an extremely effective one at accomplishing a goal.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  That's the federal government? Or is it all "The Government".
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    The United States Federal government by way of the CARES stimulus act, funded using Federal Reserve lending operations. States don’t control the currency, nor have the budgets to backstop large cap firms in economic distress.
Foober223 6y ago
Is it dangerous and toxic when the state government threatens/acts to confiscate more of your earnings?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It's the county government he's mad at here, but yes, that's also bad. Alameda County should let him run the factory unless they have some reason to believe they're in more danger than the rest of the state.
- alpha_squared 6y ago
  > Is it dangerous and toxic when the state government threatens/acts to confiscate more of your earnings? If you're talking about taxes, that's an awfully entitled phrasing.
  - stale2002 6y ago
    And it is equally "entitled" to think that the government owns those businesses, and something is being taken away from the government, when those businesses decide to voluntarily move somewhere else.
- fzeroracer 6y ago
  For one, this isn't the state government. This is a local government choosing to enact things of its own volition. If you believe in small government, then obviously this is the ideal scenario for delegation of authority is it not? And second, the people voted in said local government. So isn't it going against the spirit of America (and Democracy in general) to threaten elected officials for doing what the people elected them to do?
  - Foober223 6y ago
    The "threat" is to not play in their sandbox after they change the rules. People can of course vote to take more of your earnings. But it's fair to leave when the rules change, it's a broken contract.
mft_ 6y ago
Look, he's clearly having a hissy fit, which isn't the best look for any CEO. But you saying "billionaire" here is pejorative and unnecessary. How about "...for CEOs to threaten moving their economic operations to places where governments are more hospitable". Still dangerous and toxic?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  The problem I see here really is that he has a lot of money. If billionaires get their way by threatening dire consequences, it creates the perception that rules and regulations are for sale to sufficiently high bidders, or even worse that billionaires can create company towns which must pass whatever regulations they want. If the CEO of some 100 person company tweets out "screw you guys I'm moving to Texas", I think that's fine. Even if the state makes changes in response, nobody's going to think that his money alone was the deciding factor.
  - mft_ 6y ago
    The reason his threat is credible is because he runs a large business which brings jobs and prosperity to the states that it operates in. In this case, him being rich is irrelevant, as he’s not threatening to use his personal wealth.

forgot_again 6y ago

Things started to turn against him when he began to appear sympathetic to the American political Right and Trump in particular.

jmcguckin 6y ago

Not to mention that California is in quite the financial pickle. Taxes in the near future are headed up for groups that politicians love to badmouth, e.g. corporations and the wealthy.

paulgb 6y ago

> I'm genuinely confused by the animosity To me, it's because this stinks in the same way as Bezos playing cities off each other to extract concessions. He's even asking fans and shareholders to sue the county[1] and reach out to politicians[2]. A county has made a decision, presumably in good faith, in the interest of public health. You don't have to agree with their decision, but throwing your weight around as a billionaire to spite them for it is a bad look. 1: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259165058426232832 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259165058426232832 2: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259174414865719296 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259174414865719296 Edit: fixed reference link (thanks mft_).

rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
>A county has made a decision, presumably in good faith, in the interest of public health. This can be debated, right? I'm not sure what's the problem with the management of a company saying they're moving a headquarter because they believe they can better operate elsewhere, or asking other people who feel negatively impacted to consider a legal actions (unless you don't trust the legal system, but that's another matter I guess).
- paulgb 6y ago
  Of course it can. Is there evidence of bad faith on the county's part? I'm open to updating my beliefs.
  - jdross 6y ago
    It's not required. He's making a decision that business is best conducted elsewhere, as is his right. Personally, I don't want to live in a country where unelected officials can unilaterally make decisions that shut down the economy and kill my business and life's work. I'd certainly have a lot to say about it
    - paulgb 6y ago
      > Personally, I don't want to live in a country where unelected officials can unilaterally make decisions that shut down the economy and kill my business and life's work. Same, but I also wouldn't want to live in a county whose officials are afraid to make decisions that are in the best interest of the people's health out of fear of the wrath of a billionaire and his followers. If he wants to move the plant I have no problem with that, it's the way he's trying to use his position for outsized political pressure that I dislike.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Fricken 6y ago

He's seems pretty much the same to me too, but that's only because I have personal experience with high-functioning narcissists, and I can spot a tiger king from a mile away.

dkersten 6y ago

> ultimately harmless Like calling an innocent person a pedophile?

toomuchtodo 6y ago
A court ruled that Elon did not defame the individual, and no damages were awarded. Sounds harmless despite being in extremely poor taste. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/06/unsworth-vs-musk-pedo-guy-defamation-trial-verdict.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/06/unsworth-vs-musk-pedo-guy-de...
- mcculley 6y ago
  A court ruling in his favor doesn't make his behavior any less repugnant. I'm both a fan and a critic of Musk. If he had insulted me that way, I would break his nose. It's unacceptable.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I have found it helpful to not judge people on their worst days. We all make mistakes. I hope Elon finds humility with time, but if not, will still appreciate his contributions.
    - mcculley 6y ago
      Did Musk apologize to that man when he was done having a bad day?
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        I don’t think that man apologized to Elon for telling him to shove his sub up his ass either (which is what kicked off the spat).
belltaco 6y ago
Yes, it was in response to that person telling Musk to shove his minisub up his ass.