12 ms·

A casino card shark’s first time getting caught

252 points by smoyer 6y ago

mtm7 6y ago
I like her writing style. Each sentence flows into the next. Although I’m not quite sure what the last sentence means. She gets caught... and then what?
- jSully24 6y ago
  I believe she’s found her missing self confidence to go on in life. (edit - typo)
- tonyarkles 6y ago
  Lol definitely left it hanging at the end there!
  - mbrubeck 6y ago
    This looks like an excerpt from the in-progress book mentioned on the author’s web site: http://rozannatravis.com/ http://rozannatravis.com/
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
umvi 6y ago
> But part of me worried that I wasn’t seen as enough of a threat to warrant intervention from casino management. Maybe it meant that I wasn’t as good at this as I thought. Maybe I didn’t belong with the team after all. She felt like because she never got caught, she "wasn't good enough"? How does that make any sense? I get self confidence issues are often irrational but, c'mon... That's like a criminal lamenting that they weren't a very good criminal because the police could never catch them; everyone knows real criminals get caught and arrested.
- learnstats2 6y ago
  There's a layer that you're missing, I think. If you cheat, and cheat badly, it's often the case that the casino has noticed and is choosing to let you continue. Almost everyone who sits at a high stakes blackjack table thinks they have a system for beating the casino (perhaps by breaking the rules), but in most cases their system doesn't work or they don't execute it well enough to make a consistent profit. If it's profitable for the casino to allow this type of cheating, they will absolutely let it continue. I once sat at a table with someone blatantly marking every card that passed through his hand, but not in a way that gave him a hope of profit. The dealer was clearly aware of him doing it, and play continued. (I was quick to leave that table)
  - nathanlied 6y ago
    Adding to this as someone who has mingled with people that worked at some casinos: if you're losing very badly and seem like a 'problem gambler', sometimes they'll send someone to try and dissuade you. It's bad PR if the casinos ruin people. On the other hand, if you're winning a lot, you will get A LOT of scrutiny and extra measures, and if you're cheating, you'll probably get caught. This is likely why she had that level of nagging doubt. "Am I not winning enough to warrant extra scrutiny? Certainly if I was that good they'd have figured out what I'm doing and busted me?"
    - bluntfang 6y ago
      >if you're losing very badly and seem like a 'problem gambler', sometimes they'll send someone to try and dissuade you. It's bad PR if the casinos ruin people. That's a really good point. Casinos aren't a windfall business. They're there to rake the 1% advantage on blackjack. It's important to have people at the tables moving money, not to have 1 person lose their $100k nest egg in 12 hours.
      - rlucas 6y ago
        I disagree. Although I'm not in the business, my understanding from wide reading in the topic is quite the opposite. Casinos make money from "whales," who may or may not end up ruined to a man, but who are certainly losing enough money to ruin an average bettor. The guy losing $500 at BJ once in a while (and once in a blue moon winning some back) is the "economy coach class super saver" flyer. Yes, enough of those small fry help defray the fixed costs of the flight. But it's the last minute business class flyer that brings the margin. Similarly, the real money for the casino is in some mix of 1. problem gamblers, almost by definition, and 2. money laundering.
gjvc 6y ago
"When I sat down to write, I was no longer paralyzed with self-doubt. I wasn’t thinking of failure, I just wanted to keep trying." This is a brilliant place to be in.
Zigurd 6y ago
Isn't it a "card sharp?"
- smoyer 6y ago
  They are synonyms - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_sharp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_sharp. Curiously, I've never heard the term "card sharp" before (or I mis-heard it as "card shark").
  - Zigurd 6y ago
    I suspect card shark has bled over from loan shark or some other term like that
    - rrauenza 6y ago
      Pool shark perhaps? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_shark https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_shark
    - hashbazz 6y ago
      I think that term (shark vs. the original sharp) got popular due to a TV game show by the name "Card Sharks".
  - GeorgeTirebiter 6y ago
    I'm hopeful they will carry slightly different meanings in the future, where "card sharp" isn't pejorative but "card shark" is. Actually, today is the first time I've heard the term "card shark". Ahhh, English...
- specialp 6y ago
  Yes smart bettors call themselves "sharps" and "AP"s (advantage players) I don't think I have ever heard an AP call themselves a card shark. This seems to be a piece of fiction as most of the terminology doesn't line up and the tactics are odd too.
  - 6y ago
specialp 6y ago
Card counting is romanticized but really it is almost impossible to get away with now (while making any meaningful money). The whole premise of card counting is to vary your bets where you are betting more when the count is in your favor, and less when it isn't. Also "penetration" into the deck is important because the less cards there are remaining in the deck the probability of you getting the cards you want (positive count big cards) is higher. So with that said: - Casinos employ methods such as continuous shuffling machines that make counting impossible. Tables that have hand shuffling of 6-8 decks cut the deck and reshuffle with 2 decks remaining or so. So it is harder to get penetration. - The way to be maximally profitable is to vary your bet very widely depending on how positive the deck is. This could be 30x your low bet. Behavior like this will get you detected. - Security personnel and even dealers keep counts. It is not some savant activity. It is not hard especially since all these people do all day is look at cards. So they know when the deck is positive and if you are always betting big when that happens you will be detected. So the people that are left counting have to avoid heat by "camouflaging" their actions. They don't vary their bet that widely and make purposeful bad decisions to make it appear they are not keeping a count. They want to appear like someone that does not know how to play basic strategy and raises and lowers their bets based on superstition (there's a lot of them). This all eats into their advantage substantially. Then in addition betting big at high limit tables is going to be more carefully scrutinized as well. With that all added together the life for a modern card counter is grinding out for comps and very low player advantage for very long times. Casinos aren't dumb anymore. So while we watch the chronicles of the MIT team, and others, those days are long, long gone. Makes for great stories as people love Robin Hood like tales, but it just isn't happening like this anymore. Edit: Also the tactic she mentions: Entering a game mid shoe after watching for a while, and waiting for a positive deck, is called "Wonging" After Stanford Wong a longtime gambling expert and advantage player. There is NO WAY you'd get away with "flashy big bettor Carlos" coming in after she counted detected a positive count. Tables with any meaningful limit usually do not allow mid shoe entry for this reason. It is one of the oldest tricks in the book and you wouldn't get away with that for long or at all.
- hodder 6y ago
  Yup. As I was reading along, I thought a) this story is complete fiction, or b) of course they were caught. I’m no casino regular but every single one I’ve been into in my life use large 6-8 deck shoes and reshuffle as it hits about 2 decks. Counting just isn’t profitable anymore unless you are blatantly obvious about it.
teej 6y ago
I challenged myself to learn to count cards last year and I found it really fun. Being able to count a deck in under 30 seconds is one thing, but putting the skill to work is another challenge completely. It is hard work. Ultimately, if you aren’t playing with a team or $50+ minimums, you won’t make a huge amount of money on a per-hour basis. I still count occasionally but now only for one or two shuffles before getting back to having fun with friends.
kingkawn 6y ago
Forgive my ignorance but why is tracking the play of the deck not a legitimate strategy?
- zzo38computer 6y ago
  It is a legitimate strategy, and I think the casino is not actually allowed to arrest you, accuse you of cheating, take back your winnings, etc for it. They can ban you though; casinos can ban you whenever they want to. I think they can also refuse to give you any comp bonuses. I am not really so sure how it works; I don't gamble in a casino and do not intend to.
  - SaltyBackendGuy 6y ago
    > I don't gamble in a casino and do not intend to. This is the only long term winning strategy I've seen work in practice. (Former Poker Dealer)
    - Stratoscope 6y ago
      Greetings Professor Falken Hello A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
- ec109685 6y ago
  It is a legitimate strategy, but if you do this well enough, the casino will not allow you to play, since you can turn the game’s odds into your favor.
  - swader999 6y ago
    With face/gant recognition and other means of tracking, once you are barred from play at one casino you are at almost all.
    - swang 6y ago
      they already had this long before facial recognition came into play. they were called griffin books/black books. when you were "caught" they took a photo and a company called griffin investigations would pass this info around to all the other casinos.
dkersten 6y ago
> Counting cards isn’t illegal, but a casino, like any business, has the right to refuse service to anyone. I know players who have been handcuffed, searched and dragged into windowless back rooms But surely handcuffing someone for doing something that isn't illegal is itself illegal search and detention?
- xnyan 6y ago
  If you have the need (and I would say cynically if you also have the money and political connections) you can commission a private police force that has (in a limited way) the legal authority to arrest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police
  - jandrese 6y ago
    Even the police can't arrest you without probable cause. Until it is illegal to count cards any such arrests would be on shaky legal grounds.
    - smnrchrds 6y ago
      I am not from the US, so bear with me if I am misunderstanding the nuance of the situation. But reading US news, it seems that it is common for police to arrest people for (and only for) resisting arrest. Resisting arrest by definition must occur when attempting for arrest someone. But since the person was arrested for nothing but resisting arrest, the original arrest attempt which was resisted must have been for nothing. It appears that whatever the intent of the law might have been, in practice the police can arrest anyone without need for cause. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/29/382497080/arrested-for-resisting-arrest-yes-its-possible https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/29/382497080...
      - thechao 6y ago
        Not really. If you’re being arrested (the requirement in order to be resisting), you’re already in deep trouble. OTOH, the flip side (resisting an unlawful arrest) is serious stuff for the arresting officer. In Texas, resisting arrest is no more than 1 year of jail & a fine. Unlawful arrest is going to start at 10 years of prison, and climb rapidly from there. There’s currently a case of the latter working it’s way through the courts in Dallas. The officer is looking at decades right now.
paulpauper 6y ago
I dunno why so many people keep trying to beat the casinos. Casinos hire professionals whose job it is to track card counters and collusion , as well as advanced security systems. All these signals an gestures are obvious to those whose job it is to detect them. Certain patterns of behavior become obvious to the trained eye.
- ausbah 6y ago
  risk is very alluring! the higher the stakes the higher the draw for some!
- kd5bjo 6y ago
  The explicit goal of every gambler is to walk out of the room with more money than they started with. The casinos make sure that actually happens sometimes, or else they would have no customers. Under those circumstances, it’s basic human nature to look for ways to maximize your return. Many people do that by not gambling, but others try to find loopholes that the casinos haven’t figured out yet.
- defertoreptar 6y ago
  I go on business trips to Vegas along with a friend. My friend has been playing blackjack for decades. I'm not a gambler, but counting allows me to join in while mitigating risk (in the long run). We have a really good time. Initially, I spent about 40 hours training on blackjack counting software. Nowadays, I'll practice for one day before the trip, and I'm sharp again. My "lifetime earnings" are very good, but I'm not trying to make money so much as not lose money. Counting is only a small part of the game. You need to memorize basic strategy for the different types of tables, as there are subtle differences in rules. You have to know how many decks are left on the shoe. You have to divide the count by the decks remaining and calculate how much to bet based off of this information. Lastly, you have to execute all of this nearly perfectly all while in a loud environment while people are talking to you. Even a small percentage of mistakes can mean negative expected value.
woobar 6y ago
Amazon Prime has the "Inside the Edge" documentary about Blackjack Advantage Player. A lot of insights about how hard it is and how much money they can make now. Basically it looks like this only makes sense against smaller casinos who are behind on countermeasures. [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3575954/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3575954/
dapids 6y ago
"Counting cards isn't illegal" it all depends how you are counting them, if you use a secondary device or person assisting, that is cheating, which is illegal, even though you are using it to count.
- burnte 6y ago
  Counting cards is legal, because counting cards is a solo, mental thing. Yes, once you bring in devices or other people, it's not cheating.
unnouinceput 6y ago
to article's author: -it was too short, I want more. Some epilogue or something. This only made me thirsty for more.
- pepy 6y ago
  Looks like the article is an advertisement for a book, it seems it served its purpose
  - unnouinceput 6y ago
    well, i like it, so i won't mind buying the book. and if all ads on internet would be written like this then we'll welcome them instead frown upon...my 2 cents
supernova87a 6y ago
It's always fun to read these kinds of stories. But still in the end, if you distill it all down, doesn't it always come out to the conclusion: If your potential winnings are capped (fair or not, by the casino), and your losses are unlimited, what is gambling but a slower way to lose a bunch of money while getting a little entertainment out of it? At least for those of us who are not going to become professional card counters...
- kelnos 6y ago
  > what is gambling but a slower way to lose a bunch of money while getting a little entertainment out of it? That's generally how I look at it when I'm in Vegas. I'll take $100 from the ATM and sit down at a poker table. Occasionally I get unlucky and play really poorly and I'm out in an hour, but usually I get at least a few hours, and on the flip side, I've spent an entire night at a table on that $100, and it's a blast. Of course this also depends on the other people at the table, and the dealers that come through. Some tables just aren't that fun to be at (you're of course playing against the other people at the table, and some people take it very seriously), while others are great. Craps can be a huge amount of fun, especially when people are lucky, because you develop a kind of silly temporary camaraderie with random strangers at the table. Blackjack can be the same way, too (though I never learned how to properly play, so I usually don't last long). Consider that if you go to see a movie (often $15-25 just for the ticket these days), and you're the kind of person to get concessions and whatnot, you can easily spend $50 or more for 1.5-2 hours of entertainment. I'm cool paying $100 for sometimes 6-8 hours of fun, plus free drinks. Now, for people who don't find that kind of thing fun, then sure, that's not for them. And for people who have a gambling addiction, that's great way to spend money they don't have. But if you enjoy it, and are good about setting yourself monetary limits, and consider your buy-in to be a cost of entertainment, it's fine.
cubano 6y ago
Card counting was literally my gateway into professional programming. The first "real" program I ever wrote was a blackjack simulator, in MS-BASIC, around 30 years ago. My brother and I were getting ready to go with my Dad to Vegas for the first time, and we were keen on not being typical dumb ass gamblers...we wanted an edge. We quickly learned that the only beatable game in town was card-counting at Blackjack, so I got busy first verifying that card counting wasn't some casino ploy (it wasn't), and then modifying the same simulator code to actually "teach" the systems it was simulating. I wish I still had this code... I absolutely loved developing it, and eventually it was a very powerful blackjack system. It had configurable everything..system counts, decks, rules, players at the table, etc. I literally spent 7 years plus working on it. Eventually it was ported to Turbo Pascal for speed. I became a whiz at counting... I eventually settled on "Wong Halves", the most complex but supposedly the most accurate count system there was. Remember, this was in the late 80s early 90s, and back then casinos were wide open to be taken. I was only a $5 to $25 player though, so I never got any real heat. I used a 1 to 5 bet ratios (1 unit at low counts and 5 as "big bets"), which was very conservative, and looking back, I had a good deal of small-time success. Unlike my brother, I was never banned... I was far better than he at "blending in" and being personable. Nowadays, I live in Vegas, and they have completely destroyed the chances of winning any real money at the casinos. Hell, I remember my simulations showing me that the primary money advantage was made when you had a large bet out at a high count (favorable to the player), that the fact that blackjacks came at a higher rate WAS THE ONLY REAL MONEY MAKING ADVANTAGE THERE WAS. This is why, I feel, that the high end strip casinos NO LONGER PAY 3-2 for natural blackjacks...an outrage if ever there is one! Strip casinos now pay 6-5 for a blackjack. I have had heated arguments with pit personnel that the game should no longer be called Blackjack, so "Blackjack" pay 3-2 for naturals. Unsurprisingly, they never saw it my way. No matter how well you count, you will NEVER win long term with natural blackjacks paying only 6-5, so save your money and your time and just goto Vegas for a good time.
- nemo44x 6y ago
  I haven’t been to Vegas in a few years but I could still find a few 3-2 tables, generally in the back at some places. Also higher minimum tables tended to have better rules. The tables that were sure to fill up with low stakes, uninformed players, tended to have really bad rules. I’ve seen 6-5 blackjacks, no splitting aces, and even no doubling after splitting. Like why not just give the casino the money? I like playing blackjack because you can sit there for quite awhile and generally not lose too much (that’s a relative term of course) while socializing and getting free drinks. I’ll run a count after a few shoes here and there but not every shoe as I’m not trying to do this for profit so much as entertainment.
rebuilder 6y ago
The article describes the card sharks using disguises, apparently to get around being banned from a casino. Wouldn't that be trespassing, if they've been told not to enter the casino again?
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  Depends. There is an interim step between formally, legally trespassing you, it seems where you are told you are no longer welcome, they may use your camera footage and “ban” you.
1e-9 6y ago
I went through a short beat-the-casino phase for kicks. You can increase your edge significantly beyond standard card counting by targeting flaws in casino randomization methods. Randomization is hard. For example, card shuffles aren't random, not even mechanical ones, and particularly not human ones. It is possible to carefully observe and model a variety of randomization processes at different casinos, find a weakness in a particular game at a particular casino, and construct a profitable strategy that is nearly impossible for the casino to anticipate. Even so, they will eventually notice someone who is a consistent winner, assume you are cheating, and force you to play a stressful game of cat-and-mouse that will lower your expected profit, increase your variance, and lead to a less-than-desirable lifestyle, in my opinion. A team can improve these things at the cost of adding management and human resource headaches. If you have the talent to succeed at this, my experience is that the same talent can be applied in much more productive endeavors that pay far better and yield a much higher quality of life.
- dehrmann 6y ago
  > the same talent can be applied in much more productive endeavors that pay far better and yield a much higher quality of life. I'd guess that the edge you can get, along with max bets and not drawing attention to yourself means you're better off with a tech or hedge fund job? I've heard that pulling six figures playing poker takes a lot of skill and a lot of grinding. The story of the professional gambler is compelling, but in practice, it seems like most people just aren't smart enough or work hard enough to make it work, or they're smart and work hard enough to do better at something more productive.
throwanem 6y ago
The comments about card counting are interesting, but not all that relevant to the story, which is a pretty stock bildungsroman-lite of a sort that by design says very little about anything or anyone beyond its author. I really feel for people in that kind of situation. Say what you like about the wisdom or foolhardiness of deciding out of high school not to go to college and take on student debt, it did put me in the situation of having very quickly to work out whether and how I was going to be worth a damn - less flippantly, it put me in the position, at the beginning of my adult life, of deciding what I was going to do with my adult life, and how to go about accomplishing it. I can't imagine what it must be like to hit your mid-20s with tens of thousands, if not these days six figures, of undischargeable debt, and then have to start figuring out what sort of worth you're going to have in the world. It's a hell of a racket to run on teenagers, and, just as in the casino business against which this writer chose to try herself, it seems like the house always wins in the end.

252 points by smoyer 6y ago

mtm7 6y ago

I like her writing style. Each sentence flows into the next. Although I’m not quite sure what the last sentence means. She gets caught... and then what?

jSully24 6y ago
I believe she’s found her missing self confidence to go on in life. (edit - typo)
tonyarkles 6y ago
Lol definitely left it hanging at the end there!
- mbrubeck 6y ago
  This looks like an excerpt from the in-progress book mentioned on the author’s web site: http://rozannatravis.com/ http://rozannatravis.com/
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

umvi 6y ago

> But part of me worried that I wasn’t seen as enough of a threat to warrant intervention from casino management. Maybe it meant that I wasn’t as good at this as I thought. Maybe I didn’t belong with the team after all. She felt like because she never got caught, she "wasn't good enough"? How does that make any sense? I get self confidence issues are often irrational but, c'mon... That's like a criminal lamenting that they weren't a very good criminal because the police could never catch them; everyone knows real criminals get caught and arrested.

learnstats2 6y ago
There's a layer that you're missing, I think. If you cheat, and cheat badly, it's often the case that the casino has noticed and is choosing to let you continue. Almost everyone who sits at a high stakes blackjack table thinks they have a system for beating the casino (perhaps by breaking the rules), but in most cases their system doesn't work or they don't execute it well enough to make a consistent profit. If it's profitable for the casino to allow this type of cheating, they will absolutely let it continue. I once sat at a table with someone blatantly marking every card that passed through his hand, but not in a way that gave him a hope of profit. The dealer was clearly aware of him doing it, and play continued. (I was quick to leave that table)
- nathanlied 6y ago
  Adding to this as someone who has mingled with people that worked at some casinos: if you're losing very badly and seem like a 'problem gambler', sometimes they'll send someone to try and dissuade you. It's bad PR if the casinos ruin people. On the other hand, if you're winning a lot, you will get A LOT of scrutiny and extra measures, and if you're cheating, you'll probably get caught. This is likely why she had that level of nagging doubt. "Am I not winning enough to warrant extra scrutiny? Certainly if I was that good they'd have figured out what I'm doing and busted me?"
  - bluntfang 6y ago
    >if you're losing very badly and seem like a 'problem gambler', sometimes they'll send someone to try and dissuade you. It's bad PR if the casinos ruin people. That's a really good point. Casinos aren't a windfall business. They're there to rake the 1% advantage on blackjack. It's important to have people at the tables moving money, not to have 1 person lose their $100k nest egg in 12 hours.
    - rlucas 6y ago
      I disagree. Although I'm not in the business, my understanding from wide reading in the topic is quite the opposite. Casinos make money from "whales," who may or may not end up ruined to a man, but who are certainly losing enough money to ruin an average bettor. The guy losing $500 at BJ once in a while (and once in a blue moon winning some back) is the "economy coach class super saver" flyer. Yes, enough of those small fry help defray the fixed costs of the flight. But it's the last minute business class flyer that brings the margin. Similarly, the real money for the casino is in some mix of 1. problem gamblers, almost by definition, and 2. money laundering.

gjvc 6y ago

"When I sat down to write, I was no longer paralyzed with self-doubt. I wasn’t thinking of failure, I just wanted to keep trying." This is a brilliant place to be in.

Zigurd 6y ago

Isn't it a "card sharp?"

smoyer 6y ago
They are synonyms - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_sharp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_sharp. Curiously, I've never heard the term "card sharp" before (or I mis-heard it as "card shark").
- Zigurd 6y ago
  I suspect card shark has bled over from loan shark or some other term like that
  - rrauenza 6y ago
    Pool shark perhaps? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_shark https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_shark
  - hashbazz 6y ago
    I think that term (shark vs. the original sharp) got popular due to a TV game show by the name "Card Sharks".
- GeorgeTirebiter 6y ago
  I'm hopeful they will carry slightly different meanings in the future, where "card sharp" isn't pejorative but "card shark" is. Actually, today is the first time I've heard the term "card shark". Ahhh, English...
specialp 6y ago
Yes smart bettors call themselves "sharps" and "AP"s (advantage players) I don't think I have ever heard an AP call themselves a card shark. This seems to be a piece of fiction as most of the terminology doesn't line up and the tactics are odd too.
- 6y ago

specialp 6y ago

Card counting is romanticized but really it is almost impossible to get away with now (while making any meaningful money). The whole premise of card counting is to vary your bets where you are betting more when the count is in your favor, and less when it isn't. Also "penetration" into the deck is important because the less cards there are remaining in the deck the probability of you getting the cards you want (positive count big cards) is higher. So with that said: - Casinos employ methods such as continuous shuffling machines that make counting impossible. Tables that have hand shuffling of 6-8 decks cut the deck and reshuffle with 2 decks remaining or so. So it is harder to get penetration. - The way to be maximally profitable is to vary your bet very widely depending on how positive the deck is. This could be 30x your low bet. Behavior like this will get you detected. - Security personnel and even dealers keep counts. It is not some savant activity. It is not hard especially since all these people do all day is look at cards. So they know when the deck is positive and if you are always betting big when that happens you will be detected. So the people that are left counting have to avoid heat by "camouflaging" their actions. They don't vary their bet that widely and make purposeful bad decisions to make it appear they are not keeping a count. They want to appear like someone that does not know how to play basic strategy and raises and lowers their bets based on superstition (there's a lot of them). This all eats into their advantage substantially. Then in addition betting big at high limit tables is going to be more carefully scrutinized as well. With that all added together the life for a modern card counter is grinding out for comps and very low player advantage for very long times. Casinos aren't dumb anymore. So while we watch the chronicles of the MIT team, and others, those days are long, long gone. Makes for great stories as people love Robin Hood like tales, but it just isn't happening like this anymore. Edit: Also the tactic she mentions: Entering a game mid shoe after watching for a while, and waiting for a positive deck, is called "Wonging" After Stanford Wong a longtime gambling expert and advantage player. There is NO WAY you'd get away with "flashy big bettor Carlos" coming in after she counted detected a positive count. Tables with any meaningful limit usually do not allow mid shoe entry for this reason. It is one of the oldest tricks in the book and you wouldn't get away with that for long or at all.

hodder 6y ago
Yup. As I was reading along, I thought a) this story is complete fiction, or b) of course they were caught. I’m no casino regular but every single one I’ve been into in my life use large 6-8 deck shoes and reshuffle as it hits about 2 decks. Counting just isn’t profitable anymore unless you are blatantly obvious about it.

teej 6y ago

I challenged myself to learn to count cards last year and I found it really fun. Being able to count a deck in under 30 seconds is one thing, but putting the skill to work is another challenge completely. It is hard work. Ultimately, if you aren’t playing with a team or $50+ minimums, you won’t make a huge amount of money on a per-hour basis. I still count occasionally but now only for one or two shuffles before getting back to having fun with friends.

kingkawn 6y ago

Forgive my ignorance but why is tracking the play of the deck not a legitimate strategy?

zzo38computer 6y ago
It is a legitimate strategy, and I think the casino is not actually allowed to arrest you, accuse you of cheating, take back your winnings, etc for it. They can ban you though; casinos can ban you whenever they want to. I think they can also refuse to give you any comp bonuses. I am not really so sure how it works; I don't gamble in a casino and do not intend to.
- SaltyBackendGuy 6y ago
  > I don't gamble in a casino and do not intend to. This is the only long term winning strategy I've seen work in practice. (Former Poker Dealer)
  - Stratoscope 6y ago
    Greetings Professor Falken Hello A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
ec109685 6y ago
It is a legitimate strategy, but if you do this well enough, the casino will not allow you to play, since you can turn the game’s odds into your favor.
- swader999 6y ago
  With face/gant recognition and other means of tracking, once you are barred from play at one casino you are at almost all.
  - swang 6y ago
    they already had this long before facial recognition came into play. they were called griffin books/black books. when you were "caught" they took a photo and a company called griffin investigations would pass this info around to all the other casinos.

dkersten 6y ago

> Counting cards isn’t illegal, but a casino, like any business, has the right to refuse service to anyone. I know players who have been handcuffed, searched and dragged into windowless back rooms But surely handcuffing someone for doing something that isn't illegal is itself illegal search and detention?

xnyan 6y ago
If you have the need (and I would say cynically if you also have the money and political connections) you can commission a private police force that has (in a limited way) the legal authority to arrest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police
- jandrese 6y ago
  Even the police can't arrest you without probable cause. Until it is illegal to count cards any such arrests would be on shaky legal grounds.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    I am not from the US, so bear with me if I am misunderstanding the nuance of the situation. But reading US news, it seems that it is common for police to arrest people for (and only for) resisting arrest. Resisting arrest by definition must occur when attempting for arrest someone. But since the person was arrested for nothing but resisting arrest, the original arrest attempt which was resisted must have been for nothing. It appears that whatever the intent of the law might have been, in practice the police can arrest anyone without need for cause. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/29/382497080/arrested-for-resisting-arrest-yes-its-possible https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/29/382497080...
    - thechao 6y ago
      Not really. If you’re being arrested (the requirement in order to be resisting), you’re already in deep trouble. OTOH, the flip side (resisting an unlawful arrest) is serious stuff for the arresting officer. In Texas, resisting arrest is no more than 1 year of jail & a fine. Unlawful arrest is going to start at 10 years of prison, and climb rapidly from there. There’s currently a case of the latter working it’s way through the courts in Dallas. The officer is looking at decades right now.

paulpauper 6y ago

I dunno why so many people keep trying to beat the casinos. Casinos hire professionals whose job it is to track card counters and collusion , as well as advanced security systems. All these signals an gestures are obvious to those whose job it is to detect them. Certain patterns of behavior become obvious to the trained eye.

ausbah 6y ago
risk is very alluring! the higher the stakes the higher the draw for some!
kd5bjo 6y ago
The explicit goal of every gambler is to walk out of the room with more money than they started with. The casinos make sure that actually happens sometimes, or else they would have no customers. Under those circumstances, it’s basic human nature to look for ways to maximize your return. Many people do that by not gambling, but others try to find loopholes that the casinos haven’t figured out yet.
defertoreptar 6y ago
I go on business trips to Vegas along with a friend. My friend has been playing blackjack for decades. I'm not a gambler, but counting allows me to join in while mitigating risk (in the long run). We have a really good time. Initially, I spent about 40 hours training on blackjack counting software. Nowadays, I'll practice for one day before the trip, and I'm sharp again. My "lifetime earnings" are very good, but I'm not trying to make money so much as not lose money. Counting is only a small part of the game. You need to memorize basic strategy for the different types of tables, as there are subtle differences in rules. You have to know how many decks are left on the shoe. You have to divide the count by the decks remaining and calculate how much to bet based off of this information. Lastly, you have to execute all of this nearly perfectly all while in a loud environment while people are talking to you. Even a small percentage of mistakes can mean negative expected value.

woobar 6y ago

Amazon Prime has the "Inside the Edge" documentary about Blackjack Advantage Player. A lot of insights about how hard it is and how much money they can make now. Basically it looks like this only makes sense against smaller casinos who are behind on countermeasures. [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3575954/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3575954/

dapids 6y ago

"Counting cards isn't illegal" it all depends how you are counting them, if you use a secondary device or person assisting, that is cheating, which is illegal, even though you are using it to count.

burnte 6y ago
Counting cards is legal, because counting cards is a solo, mental thing. Yes, once you bring in devices or other people, it's not cheating.

unnouinceput 6y ago

to article's author: -it was too short, I want more. Some epilogue or something. This only made me thirsty for more.

pepy 6y ago
Looks like the article is an advertisement for a book, it seems it served its purpose
- unnouinceput 6y ago
  well, i like it, so i won't mind buying the book. and if all ads on internet would be written like this then we'll welcome them instead frown upon...my 2 cents

supernova87a 6y ago

It's always fun to read these kinds of stories. But still in the end, if you distill it all down, doesn't it always come out to the conclusion: If your potential winnings are capped (fair or not, by the casino), and your losses are unlimited, what is gambling but a slower way to lose a bunch of money while getting a little entertainment out of it? At least for those of us who are not going to become professional card counters...

kelnos 6y ago
> what is gambling but a slower way to lose a bunch of money while getting a little entertainment out of it? That's generally how I look at it when I'm in Vegas. I'll take $100 from the ATM and sit down at a poker table. Occasionally I get unlucky and play really poorly and I'm out in an hour, but usually I get at least a few hours, and on the flip side, I've spent an entire night at a table on that $100, and it's a blast. Of course this also depends on the other people at the table, and the dealers that come through. Some tables just aren't that fun to be at (you're of course playing against the other people at the table, and some people take it very seriously), while others are great. Craps can be a huge amount of fun, especially when people are lucky, because you develop a kind of silly temporary camaraderie with random strangers at the table. Blackjack can be the same way, too (though I never learned how to properly play, so I usually don't last long). Consider that if you go to see a movie (often $15-25 just for the ticket these days), and you're the kind of person to get concessions and whatnot, you can easily spend $50 or more for 1.5-2 hours of entertainment. I'm cool paying $100 for sometimes 6-8 hours of fun, plus free drinks. Now, for people who don't find that kind of thing fun, then sure, that's not for them. And for people who have a gambling addiction, that's great way to spend money they don't have. But if you enjoy it, and are good about setting yourself monetary limits, and consider your buy-in to be a cost of entertainment, it's fine.

cubano 6y ago

Card counting was literally my gateway into professional programming. The first "real" program I ever wrote was a blackjack simulator, in MS-BASIC, around 30 years ago. My brother and I were getting ready to go with my Dad to Vegas for the first time, and we were keen on not being typical dumb ass gamblers...we wanted an edge. We quickly learned that the only beatable game in town was card-counting at Blackjack, so I got busy first verifying that card counting wasn't some casino ploy (it wasn't), and then modifying the same simulator code to actually "teach" the systems it was simulating. I wish I still had this code... I absolutely loved developing it, and eventually it was a very powerful blackjack system. It had configurable everything..system counts, decks, rules, players at the table, etc. I literally spent 7 years plus working on it. Eventually it was ported to Turbo Pascal for speed. I became a whiz at counting... I eventually settled on "Wong Halves", the most complex but supposedly the most accurate count system there was. Remember, this was in the late 80s early 90s, and back then casinos were wide open to be taken. I was only a $5 to $25 player though, so I never got any real heat. I used a 1 to 5 bet ratios (1 unit at low counts and 5 as "big bets"), which was very conservative, and looking back, I had a good deal of small-time success. Unlike my brother, I was never banned... I was far better than he at "blending in" and being personable. Nowadays, I live in Vegas, and they have completely destroyed the chances of winning any real money at the casinos. Hell, I remember my simulations showing me that the primary money advantage was made when you had a large bet out at a high count (favorable to the player), that the fact that blackjacks came at a higher rate WAS THE ONLY REAL MONEY MAKING ADVANTAGE THERE WAS. This is why, I feel, that the high end strip casinos NO LONGER PAY 3-2 for natural blackjacks...an outrage if ever there is one! Strip casinos now pay 6-5 for a blackjack. I have had heated arguments with pit personnel that the game should no longer be called Blackjack, so "Blackjack" pay 3-2 for naturals. Unsurprisingly, they never saw it my way. No matter how well you count, you will NEVER win long term with natural blackjacks paying only 6-5, so save your money and your time and just goto Vegas for a good time.

nemo44x 6y ago
I haven’t been to Vegas in a few years but I could still find a few 3-2 tables, generally in the back at some places. Also higher minimum tables tended to have better rules. The tables that were sure to fill up with low stakes, uninformed players, tended to have really bad rules. I’ve seen 6-5 blackjacks, no splitting aces, and even no doubling after splitting. Like why not just give the casino the money? I like playing blackjack because you can sit there for quite awhile and generally not lose too much (that’s a relative term of course) while socializing and getting free drinks. I’ll run a count after a few shoes here and there but not every shoe as I’m not trying to do this for profit so much as entertainment.

rebuilder 6y ago

The article describes the card sharks using disguises, apparently to get around being banned from a casino. Wouldn't that be trespassing, if they've been told not to enter the casino again?

FireBeyond 6y ago
Depends. There is an interim step between formally, legally trespassing you, it seems where you are told you are no longer welcome, they may use your camera footage and “ban” you.

1e-9 6y ago

I went through a short beat-the-casino phase for kicks. You can increase your edge significantly beyond standard card counting by targeting flaws in casino randomization methods. Randomization is hard. For example, card shuffles aren't random, not even mechanical ones, and particularly not human ones. It is possible to carefully observe and model a variety of randomization processes at different casinos, find a weakness in a particular game at a particular casino, and construct a profitable strategy that is nearly impossible for the casino to anticipate. Even so, they will eventually notice someone who is a consistent winner, assume you are cheating, and force you to play a stressful game of cat-and-mouse that will lower your expected profit, increase your variance, and lead to a less-than-desirable lifestyle, in my opinion. A team can improve these things at the cost of adding management and human resource headaches. If you have the talent to succeed at this, my experience is that the same talent can be applied in much more productive endeavors that pay far better and yield a much higher quality of life.

dehrmann 6y ago
> the same talent can be applied in much more productive endeavors that pay far better and yield a much higher quality of life. I'd guess that the edge you can get, along with max bets and not drawing attention to yourself means you're better off with a tech or hedge fund job? I've heard that pulling six figures playing poker takes a lot of skill and a lot of grinding. The story of the professional gambler is compelling, but in practice, it seems like most people just aren't smart enough or work hard enough to make it work, or they're smart and work hard enough to do better at something more productive.

throwanem 6y ago

The comments about card counting are interesting, but not all that relevant to the story, which is a pretty stock bildungsroman-lite of a sort that by design says very little about anything or anyone beyond its author. I really feel for people in that kind of situation. Say what you like about the wisdom or foolhardiness of deciding out of high school not to go to college and take on student debt, it did put me in the situation of having very quickly to work out whether and how I was going to be worth a damn - less flippantly, it put me in the position, at the beginning of my adult life, of deciding what I was going to do with my adult life, and how to go about accomplishing it. I can't imagine what it must be like to hit your mid-20s with tens of thousands, if not these days six figures, of undischargeable debt, and then have to start figuring out what sort of worth you're going to have in the world. It's a hell of a racket to run on teenagers, and, just as in the casino business against which this writer chose to try herself, it seems like the house always wins in the end.