5 ms·

Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

101 points by JasonHarrison 6y ago

Hokusai 6y ago
Who owns the Statue of Liberty (great video by CGP Grey): https://youtu.be/SgZ1f4ACZBQ https://youtu.be/SgZ1f4ACZBQ
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pchristensen 6y ago
  You beat me to it!
RyJones 6y ago
this is amazing - I'm a map geek and this stuff is catnip for me. I built a, for the time, very good data logging setup for my Jeep and mapped some trails[0] in 2001. Why? The maps provided by the USFS and the timber leaseholders were (and still are) wrong. I also made a point the first time I was in Europe of renting a car and driving to Baarle-Hertog[1] and walking to all of the enclaves, as well as enclaves within enclaves. [0]: https://github.com/ryjones/Area29SnowmobileTrailMap https://github.com/ryjones/Area29SnowmobileTrailMap [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Hertog#List_of_enclaves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Hertog#List_of_enclaves
- pocket_titan 6y ago
  I live somewhat near Baarle-Hertog. Normally, there's no real issues with the enclaves, since both Belgium and the Netherlands are in the EU. But the coronavirus has caused national policy to differ, with the funniest example being: shops in Belgium were (some have since been allowed to reopene) forced to close, but the ones in the Netherlands weren't, leading to bizarre situations where shops that crossed over the border (sometimes multiple times) had to 'close' the parts located in Belgium, but not the one in the Netherlands. So you would not be able to buy things located in the 'Belgian area'. Crazy, but cool!
- philshem 6y ago
  Next project? Enclaves in enclaves in enclaves? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari Edit: Too late. Ceded to Bangladesh in 2015.
  - RyJones 6y ago
    dang. I was ready to go!
- lscotte 6y ago
  I do search and rescue, and it is amazing how out of date the USFS maps are. The "2016" revision shows roads that haven`t existed in decades. Even the MVUM map is wrong in similar ways, and it`s supposed to be the source of truth.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    In general, especially in the western US as I'm sure you know, it's hard to rely on maps to tell you how drive-able very secondary roads are. They can range from being pretty decent for even just a passenger car and mostly just normal driving skills to you'd better have a Jeep and know how to drive it to "Nah. This isn't really a road." With the weather/season/when was the last flash flood entering into the equation as well. There are some very sad stories related to people assuming that a road on a map is actually a road in the way people living around cities generally think of the term.
    - lostapathy 6y ago
      It's too bad there isn't a good way to crowd-source this data and get it back upstream to official maps. I took a drive on what started as a very nice, scenic forest service road in Colorado and ended up in the back of an active cinder mine. We got through the mine ok, but never would have been able to make it back up the mountain the way we came down. I spent the whole time worrying we were going to get stuck behind a locked fence until the workers came back Monday morning.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        It won't magically take care of upstreaming the data, but you could mark it on OpenStreetMap. access=private in the mine at least.
  - driverdan 6y ago
    I've camped in many national forests. The only motor vehicle use maps (MVUM) I've seen that are good are the ones around Bend, OR. All the rest are pretty bad. They're supposed to indicate where camping is and isn't allowed. Very few do. They also don't indicate road quality well. Each district is responsible for their maps which is why quality varies. They really need to standardize and enforce those standards properly.
ThePadawan 6y ago
There really are some weird edge cases out there. E.g. parts of the border between Switzerland and Italy is described by peaks and valleys of the alps. Now due to climate change, glaciers are melting, and suddenly parts of Switzerland and Italy are swapping. [https://www.nzz.ch/panorama/neue-landesgrenze-schweiz-und-italien-streiten-im-hochgebirge-ld.1546141 https://www.nzz.ch/panorama/neue-landesgrenze-schweiz-und-it..., German only]
- Stratoscope 6y ago
  That's an interesting article, and Google Translate does a fine job on the English translation.
supernova87a 6y ago
I'll just mention a side story for people's interest. You may notice that Ellis Island is connected to New Jersey by a small bridge, in the maps and satellite view. That bridge is a service bridge, but it isn't implausible that it could be adapted for use by pedestrians to visit Ellis Island. It might involve a few $m and an environmental review, but it has been considered before. However, despite periodic questioning and advocacy for it to be allowed for pedestrians (to decrease the cost of people visiting, and make the island more accessible), the NPS has stated that "an approach by boat is important to the experience". A $19.25 ticket, run by a private ferry company. Go figure.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  First question: who runs the local National Parks Service (NPS), and who runs the the ferry company, and what's their [financial] link.
  - exegete 6y ago
    The ferry companies and NYC lobbied to make access by ferry only. There are two locations to board the ferry. One in Jersey and one in NYC. Ferry companies obviously didn’t want to lose revenue and NYC didn’t want people to go to Jersey.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  The ownership of Ellis and Liberty Islands, between New York, New Jersey and the federal government, has been the subject of multiple skirmishes, treaties and Supreme Court cases.
- AlexTrask 6y ago
  On osm you can mark the kind of acces so you can indicate that is a service acces
aj7 6y ago
Now do Governor’s Island.

101 points by JasonHarrison 6y ago

Hokusai 6y ago

Who owns the Statue of Liberty (great video by CGP Grey): https://youtu.be/SgZ1f4ACZBQ https://youtu.be/SgZ1f4ACZBQ

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pchristensen 6y ago
You beat me to it!

RyJones 6y ago

this is amazing - I'm a map geek and this stuff is catnip for me. I built a, for the time, very good data logging setup for my Jeep and mapped some trails[0] in 2001. Why? The maps provided by the USFS and the timber leaseholders were (and still are) wrong. I also made a point the first time I was in Europe of renting a car and driving to Baarle-Hertog[1] and walking to all of the enclaves, as well as enclaves within enclaves. [0]: https://github.com/ryjones/Area29SnowmobileTrailMap https://github.com/ryjones/Area29SnowmobileTrailMap [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Hertog#List_of_enclaves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Hertog#List_of_enclaves

pocket_titan 6y ago
I live somewhat near Baarle-Hertog. Normally, there's no real issues with the enclaves, since both Belgium and the Netherlands are in the EU. But the coronavirus has caused national policy to differ, with the funniest example being: shops in Belgium were (some have since been allowed to reopene) forced to close, but the ones in the Netherlands weren't, leading to bizarre situations where shops that crossed over the border (sometimes multiple times) had to 'close' the parts located in Belgium, but not the one in the Netherlands. So you would not be able to buy things located in the 'Belgian area'. Crazy, but cool!
philshem 6y ago
Next project? Enclaves in enclaves in enclaves? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari Edit: Too late. Ceded to Bangladesh in 2015.
- RyJones 6y ago
  dang. I was ready to go!
lscotte 6y ago
I do search and rescue, and it is amazing how out of date the USFS maps are. The "2016" revision shows roads that haven`t existed in decades. Even the MVUM map is wrong in similar ways, and it`s supposed to be the source of truth.
- ghaff 6y ago
  In general, especially in the western US as I'm sure you know, it's hard to rely on maps to tell you how drive-able very secondary roads are. They can range from being pretty decent for even just a passenger car and mostly just normal driving skills to you'd better have a Jeep and know how to drive it to "Nah. This isn't really a road." With the weather/season/when was the last flash flood entering into the equation as well. There are some very sad stories related to people assuming that a road on a map is actually a road in the way people living around cities generally think of the term.
  - lostapathy 6y ago
    It's too bad there isn't a good way to crowd-source this data and get it back upstream to official maps. I took a drive on what started as a very nice, scenic forest service road in Colorado and ended up in the back of an active cinder mine. We got through the mine ok, but never would have been able to make it back up the mountain the way we came down. I spent the whole time worrying we were going to get stuck behind a locked fence until the workers came back Monday morning.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      It won't magically take care of upstreaming the data, but you could mark it on OpenStreetMap. access=private in the mine at least.
- driverdan 6y ago
  I've camped in many national forests. The only motor vehicle use maps (MVUM) I've seen that are good are the ones around Bend, OR. All the rest are pretty bad. They're supposed to indicate where camping is and isn't allowed. Very few do. They also don't indicate road quality well. Each district is responsible for their maps which is why quality varies. They really need to standardize and enforce those standards properly.

ThePadawan 6y ago

There really are some weird edge cases out there. E.g. parts of the border between Switzerland and Italy is described by peaks and valleys of the alps. Now due to climate change, glaciers are melting, and suddenly parts of Switzerland and Italy are swapping. [https://www.nzz.ch/panorama/neue-landesgrenze-schweiz-und-italien-streiten-im-hochgebirge-ld.1546141 https://www.nzz.ch/panorama/neue-landesgrenze-schweiz-und-it..., German only]

Stratoscope 6y ago
That's an interesting article, and Google Translate does a fine job on the English translation.

supernova87a 6y ago

I'll just mention a side story for people's interest. You may notice that Ellis Island is connected to New Jersey by a small bridge, in the maps and satellite view. That bridge is a service bridge, but it isn't implausible that it could be adapted for use by pedestrians to visit Ellis Island. It might involve a few $m and an environmental review, but it has been considered before. However, despite periodic questioning and advocacy for it to be allowed for pedestrians (to decrease the cost of people visiting, and make the island more accessible), the NPS has stated that "an approach by boat is important to the experience". A $19.25 ticket, run by a private ferry company. Go figure.

pbhjpbhj 6y ago
First question: who runs the local National Parks Service (NPS), and who runs the the ferry company, and what's their [financial] link.
- exegete 6y ago
  The ferry companies and NYC lobbied to make access by ferry only. There are two locations to board the ferry. One in Jersey and one in NYC. Ferry companies obviously didn’t want to lose revenue and NYC didn’t want people to go to Jersey.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
The ownership of Ellis and Liberty Islands, between New York, New Jersey and the federal government, has been the subject of multiple skirmishes, treaties and Supreme Court cases.
AlexTrask 6y ago
On osm you can mark the kind of acces so you can indicate that is a service acces

aj7 6y ago

Now do Governor’s Island.