13 ms·

Orca: an esolang for audio-visual live coding

307 points by kick 6y ago

tantalor 6y ago
"on bang"?
- c22 6y ago
  Didn't mess with it yet, but I'm assuming these fire when the cursor hits a bang character (!)
- pierrec 6y ago
  A "bang" is a trigger signal. This is common in audio programming languages and I think the term originated from Max/MSP: https://docs.cycling74.com/max8/tutorials/basicchapter02 https://docs.cycling74.com/max8/tutorials/basicchapter02 Edit: removed incorrect assumption about audio processing, thanks vertex-four
  - vertex-four 6y ago
    No, there's no audio at any point within the system, it's less an audio programming language and more of a language whose output primitive is a MIDI note generator.
cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
This is a cool project I've been watching for a while. But off topic from this, what is with all the sourcehut links on HN lately? Where did this suddenly come out of? Looks like a lot of cool projects are starting to host their code here. Wondering how it got the traction.
- catacombs 6y ago
  SourceHut is not GitHub or GitLab. That's already a plus.
  - tolqen 6y ago
    At what point will it be “is not GitHub, GitLab, or SourceHut”
    - jolmg 6y ago
      When SourceHut is big enough and there's a new underdog to support. Hurray for competitive markets!
    - kick 6y ago
      Drew is ethical, unlike the other two, and it seems very, very unlikely that will change. Have you seen his rants? He cares more about software freedom than most GNU contributors. He also has been contributing to free software for years as his main occupation, which is something that can't be said of the founders of the other two. If Drew somehow has a complete change of personality and ethics, that's when it'll be "It's not GitHub, GitLab, or SourceHut." But as it is, he's basically the only trustworthy business-owner on this site. He even reps a "competitor" that actually supports software freedom as well: Codeberg.
    - kitotik 6y ago
      mmm, the founder of Sourcehut is about as far from typical startup founder as you can get. He’d have to blow up his whole schtick if Sourcehut started down a ethically questionable path.
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    GitHub is Microsoft, what's wrong with GitLab?
    - remexre 6y ago
      GitLab loads enormous amounts of JS, and requires more server resources than just about anything else I've tried to run that wasn't a game server.
- _vbdg 6y ago
  Aside from the "proprietary bad" arguments (which is enough to get traction on HN), there are a bunch of practical reasons: 1. It's faster. Mr. Devault, Sourcehut's author, runs a benchmark site that demonstrates this: https://forgeperf.org/ https://forgeperf.org/ 2. The e-mail based workflow is (in my opinion) superior; I don't have to use some clunky web interface. 3. I can run it myself, on-premise, for free.
  - xori 6y ago
    Unfortunately the actually git "push"ing of code is slower. I'm a paying sr.ht member and that's the one thing I wish was faster.
    - ddevault 6y ago
      As of when? It was slow for a while, but we did a bunch of performance improvements and it's much better now.
  - umvi 6y ago
    > 2. The e-mail based workflow is (in my opinion) superior; I don't have to use some clunky web interface. Yeah but my email client can't show me nice diffs and let me comment on line numbers like GitLab/Hub can... Plus I I don't really understand SH's decision not to support PRs, which seem fundamental to most workflows. I think PRs are far superior than spamming up my inbox and using esoteric git email commands To be fair, I've never actually tried an email-based workflow, but in my mind it involves a lot of emails and reply-alls and just general clutter and an absence of syntax highlighting, pinpoint line commenting, side-by-side diff and all the other nice things the GitLab/Hub provide with PRs.
    - ddevault 6y ago
      >Yeah but my email client can't show me nice diffs https://l.sr.ht/QlVR.png https://l.sr.ht/QlVR.png >let me comment on line numbers like GitLab/Hub can https://l.sr.ht/cz3L.png https://l.sr.ht/cz3L.png These are also being added to the web UI: https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-dev/patches/10253 https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-dev/patches/10253 But at the end of the day, if this workflow is not for you, there are a half-dozen other platforms you could be using.
- rrix2 6y ago
  They're the last bastion of hosted hg support, if that's of interest.
- kick 6y ago
  The site recently got discoverability of projects (less than a week ago); it's had a bunch of projects laying about for a few months now, but you'd have to use site:*.sr.ht on a search engine to find anything. It's more navigatable and has far fewer ethical problems than both Gitlab and GitHub, which makes it more enjoyable to search through. The site itself has actually had many links over the course of the past two years: - 46 from sr.ht https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sr.ht https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sr.ht - 22 from sourcehut.org https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sourcehut.org https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sourcehut.org
  - franga2000 6y ago
    > ethical problems with GitLab Ooh? What did I miss?
    - kick 6y ago
      Mandatory telemetry until people started dropping subscriptions was the most well-known one in recent memory, but there have been more. The open core model is also ethically-poor.
      - vageli 6y ago
        > The open core model is also ethically-poor. Can you speak more to this?
        kick 6y ago
        It's proprietary software with extra steps to trick people into giving a company the respect that comes with free software. To quote Andrew Miloradovsky: The reason why many companies insist on using "permissive" licenses is because they're having an "open core" business model, and want to be able to include the work of external contributors into their proprietary versions, without asking the contributors to sign any kind of agreement. I know multiple people working on multiple projects who would have been entirely willing and able to pay for the enterprise feature-set, were it not proprietary. It's not even a good business model! Solely aimed at large companies, GitLab has no regard for individual users or foundations & groups producing free software. Some people make the argument that because they offer the proprietary patches to free software projects at cost of nothing more than freedom, they do have regard for them, but that's a ridiculous argument: BitBucket was gratis for free software too.
bradly 6y ago
You can use Orca online here: https://hundredrabbits.github.io/Orca/ https://hundredrabbits.github.io/Orca/
- khazhoux 6y ago
  Esoteric language indeed! Is there a way to load an example? I can't figure out how to get anything to work.
  - newx 6y ago
    Inside the repo there are examples that help to understand how it works: https://git.sr.ht/~rabbits/orca/tree/master/examples https://git.sr.ht/~rabbits/orca/tree/master/examples
  - sulam 6y ago
    My browser doesn't have a MIDI out, so I don't understand how that's meant to work.
    - cpmsmith 6y ago
      It might, actually: https://www.w3.org/TR/webmidi/ https://www.w3.org/TR/webmidi/ Chromium-based browsers only at the moment.
zimbatm 6y ago
It's also worth taking a look at the author's website: https://100r.co/ https://100r.co/ - ORCA is just one of many projects and explorations that they do while living on a boat.
- bangonkeyboard 6y ago
  Here's a presentation they did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW32yUEymvU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW32yUEymvU It sounds like they'd left the boat at the time.
  - zengid 6y ago
    that talk, where they discuss their experience living on and maintaining a sailboat, resonates with me very well right now. In quarantine, I'm having to learn how to fix things and basically be able to take care of the household. It feels like we are on a space ship, drifting through time, but basking in peace and solitude.
    - vageli 6y ago
      > It feels like we are on a space ship, drifting through time, but basking in peace and solitude. This comment reminded me of this video by CGP Grey which I think you may enjoy if you haven't yet seen it. https://youtu.be/snAhsXyO3Ck https://youtu.be/snAhsXyO3Ck
      - marzell 6y ago
        Thanks for sharing this.
- rwnspace 6y ago
  The markdown editor listed on that page, Left, is really rather good: https://100r.co/site/left.html https://100r.co/site/left.html
  - ShamelessC 6y ago
suyash 6y ago
nice to see hosted on source hut
CyberDildonics 6y ago
What is an esolang?
- anamexis 6y ago
  esoteric [programming] language.
  - cat199 6y ago
    ooh a category so esoteric it has to invent an esoteric descriptor
    - mhd 6y ago
      "Conlang" for a constructed language (Esperanto, Klingon, Dothraki) has been around for about 30 years. I think the confusing part here isn't the informal abbreviation, it's the general concept that a programming language made to be intentionally inefficient/confusing/hard is "esoteric".
  - downerending 6y ago
    Argh. These sorts of coined puzzle words need to die. (And don't even get me started on the "rona".)
    - anamexis 6y ago
      In general I agree, but I'll give this one a pass for being meta.
    - edjrage 6y ago
      Why? It's not like it's hard to Google it or even guess the meaning (at least in this particular case).
      - downerending 6y ago
        Aside from the thought that it's effete, precious, and obnoxious, it makes the headline incomprehensible just to save six letters (or to seem trendy). Ugh.
gyrgtyn 6y ago
See #ORCΛ on twitter for examples
- cosmojg 6y ago
  Link for the lazy/efficient: https://nitter.net/search?q=%23ORC%CE%9B https://nitter.net/search?q=%23ORC%CE%9B
sj4nz 6y ago
Thanks for reposting(?) this, I was trying to remember what this project was the last time it was mentioned on HN.
Dangeranger 6y ago
There is an excellent overview of how to use the interface by a YouTube channel called Allieway Audio[0]. It was the explanation that made this software make sense for me personally. [0] https://youtu.be/RaI_TuISSJE https://youtu.be/RaI_TuISSJE
rwhaling 6y ago
Great to see Orca on here! Really really fun to play with for generative music; I made a song with it last year that I posted: https://www.instagram.com/p/BzVjW7LBv1K/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BzVjW7LBv1K/ I also learned a lot from watching Allieway Audio's Orca series on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeo2Fo1OidWpT83BT5xmCZw/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeo2Fo1OidWpT83BT5xmCZw/vid... Orca is fascinating because it is so limited compared to most "programming languages", and trying to figure out how to express ideas 1) compactly, 2) without abstraction or recursion, and 3) flexible enough for real-time editing, is a great, rewarding challenge.
Gormisdomai 6y ago
There's a nice demo of this here https://youtu.be/RaI_TuISSJE https://youtu.be/RaI_TuISSJE (with the explanation starting 3 mins in)
metasyn 6y ago
I've been playing around with orca for a few months: its really exciting and fun to use. Here are some videos of patches I think are cool: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH5GaVU0ed8&t=72s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH5GaVU0ed8&t=72s * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ig84_4RF5E&t=50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ig84_4RF5E&t=50s * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzUQlmQvtjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzUQlmQvtjI * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_flqHdfFitw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_flqHdfFitw
shalabhc 6y ago
There's a two part podcast on futureofcoding.org with the creator of Orca, Devine Lu Linvega: https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/044 https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/044 https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/045 https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/045
- spiralganglion 6y ago
  Hey, I know the host of that podcast! He has some weird opinions about visual programming. Makes sense he'd be interested in Orca.
- avindroth 6y ago
  good community too
aldanor 6y ago
This seems to be heavily influenced by Max? Sort of like a slimmed down esoteric text version of Max with a few extra quirks.
- kitotik 6y ago
  I’d say closer to csound with a UI inspired by old school midi trackers.
news_to_me 6y ago
> (Also, #pragma once must be supported.) It's really interesting to me how this isn't standard C — ergonomically, it's so much nicer than the `ifndef` header guards.
RangerScience 6y ago
This looks like it could be described as a cross between Dwarf Fortress and Sonic Pi?
person_of_color 6y ago
How does this compare to SonicPi?
- _spduchamp 6y ago
  Different beast. Orca sends midi so you could control SonicPi.
disposedtrolley 6y ago
I remember seeing this on GitHub [1] when it was a JavaScript implementation. It'll be interesting to see how it's been ported over to C! [1] https://github.com/hundredrabbits/Orca https://github.com/hundredrabbits/Orca

307 points by kick 6y ago

tantalor 6y ago

"on bang"?

c22 6y ago
Didn't mess with it yet, but I'm assuming these fire when the cursor hits a bang character (!)
pierrec 6y ago
A "bang" is a trigger signal. This is common in audio programming languages and I think the term originated from Max/MSP: https://docs.cycling74.com/max8/tutorials/basicchapter02 https://docs.cycling74.com/max8/tutorials/basicchapter02 Edit: removed incorrect assumption about audio processing, thanks vertex-four
- vertex-four 6y ago
  No, there's no audio at any point within the system, it's less an audio programming language and more of a language whose output primitive is a MIDI note generator.

cocktailpeanuts 6y ago

This is a cool project I've been watching for a while. But off topic from this, what is with all the sourcehut links on HN lately? Where did this suddenly come out of? Looks like a lot of cool projects are starting to host their code here. Wondering how it got the traction.

catacombs 6y ago
SourceHut is not GitHub or GitLab. That's already a plus.
- tolqen 6y ago
  At what point will it be “is not GitHub, GitLab, or SourceHut”
  - jolmg 6y ago
    When SourceHut is big enough and there's a new underdog to support. Hurray for competitive markets!
  - kick 6y ago
    Drew is ethical, unlike the other two, and it seems very, very unlikely that will change. Have you seen his rants? He cares more about software freedom than most GNU contributors. He also has been contributing to free software for years as his main occupation, which is something that can't be said of the founders of the other two. If Drew somehow has a complete change of personality and ethics, that's when it'll be "It's not GitHub, GitLab, or SourceHut." But as it is, he's basically the only trustworthy business-owner on this site. He even reps a "competitor" that actually supports software freedom as well: Codeberg.
  - kitotik 6y ago
    mmm, the founder of Sourcehut is about as far from typical startup founder as you can get. He’d have to blow up his whole schtick if Sourcehut started down a ethically questionable path.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  GitHub is Microsoft, what's wrong with GitLab?
  - remexre 6y ago
    GitLab loads enormous amounts of JS, and requires more server resources than just about anything else I've tried to run that wasn't a game server.
_vbdg 6y ago
Aside from the "proprietary bad" arguments (which is enough to get traction on HN), there are a bunch of practical reasons: 1. It's faster. Mr. Devault, Sourcehut's author, runs a benchmark site that demonstrates this: https://forgeperf.org/ https://forgeperf.org/ 2. The e-mail based workflow is (in my opinion) superior; I don't have to use some clunky web interface. 3. I can run it myself, on-premise, for free.
- xori 6y ago
  Unfortunately the actually git "push"ing of code is slower. I'm a paying sr.ht member and that's the one thing I wish was faster.
  - ddevault 6y ago
    As of when? It was slow for a while, but we did a bunch of performance improvements and it's much better now.
- umvi 6y ago
  > 2. The e-mail based workflow is (in my opinion) superior; I don't have to use some clunky web interface. Yeah but my email client can't show me nice diffs and let me comment on line numbers like GitLab/Hub can... Plus I I don't really understand SH's decision not to support PRs, which seem fundamental to most workflows. I think PRs are far superior than spamming up my inbox and using esoteric git email commands To be fair, I've never actually tried an email-based workflow, but in my mind it involves a lot of emails and reply-alls and just general clutter and an absence of syntax highlighting, pinpoint line commenting, side-by-side diff and all the other nice things the GitLab/Hub provide with PRs.
  - ddevault 6y ago
    >Yeah but my email client can't show me nice diffs https://l.sr.ht/QlVR.png https://l.sr.ht/QlVR.png >let me comment on line numbers like GitLab/Hub can https://l.sr.ht/cz3L.png https://l.sr.ht/cz3L.png These are also being added to the web UI: https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-dev/patches/10253 https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-dev/patches/10253 But at the end of the day, if this workflow is not for you, there are a half-dozen other platforms you could be using.
rrix2 6y ago
They're the last bastion of hosted hg support, if that's of interest.
kick 6y ago
The site recently got discoverability of projects (less than a week ago); it's had a bunch of projects laying about for a few months now, but you'd have to use site:*.sr.ht on a search engine to find anything. It's more navigatable and has far fewer ethical problems than both Gitlab and GitHub, which makes it more enjoyable to search through. The site itself has actually had many links over the course of the past two years: - 46 from sr.ht https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sr.ht https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sr.ht - 22 from sourcehut.org https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sourcehut.org https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=sourcehut.org
- franga2000 6y ago
  > ethical problems with GitLab Ooh? What did I miss?
  - kick 6y ago
    Mandatory telemetry until people started dropping subscriptions was the most well-known one in recent memory, but there have been more. The open core model is also ethically-poor.
    - vageli 6y ago
      > The open core model is also ethically-poor. Can you speak more to this?
      - kick 6y ago
        It's proprietary software with extra steps to trick people into giving a company the respect that comes with free software. To quote Andrew Miloradovsky: The reason why many companies insist on using "permissive" licenses is because they're having an "open core" business model, and want to be able to include the work of external contributors into their proprietary versions, without asking the contributors to sign any kind of agreement. I know multiple people working on multiple projects who would have been entirely willing and able to pay for the enterprise feature-set, were it not proprietary. It's not even a good business model! Solely aimed at large companies, GitLab has no regard for individual users or foundations & groups producing free software. Some people make the argument that because they offer the proprietary patches to free software projects at cost of nothing more than freedom, they do have regard for them, but that's a ridiculous argument: BitBucket was gratis for free software too.

bradly 6y ago

You can use Orca online here: https://hundredrabbits.github.io/Orca/ https://hundredrabbits.github.io/Orca/

khazhoux 6y ago
Esoteric language indeed! Is there a way to load an example? I can't figure out how to get anything to work.
- newx 6y ago
  Inside the repo there are examples that help to understand how it works: https://git.sr.ht/~rabbits/orca/tree/master/examples https://git.sr.ht/~rabbits/orca/tree/master/examples
- sulam 6y ago
  My browser doesn't have a MIDI out, so I don't understand how that's meant to work.
  - cpmsmith 6y ago
    It might, actually: https://www.w3.org/TR/webmidi/ https://www.w3.org/TR/webmidi/ Chromium-based browsers only at the moment.

zimbatm 6y ago

It's also worth taking a look at the author's website: https://100r.co/ https://100r.co/ - ORCA is just one of many projects and explorations that they do while living on a boat.

bangonkeyboard 6y ago
Here's a presentation they did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW32yUEymvU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW32yUEymvU It sounds like they'd left the boat at the time.
- zengid 6y ago
  that talk, where they discuss their experience living on and maintaining a sailboat, resonates with me very well right now. In quarantine, I'm having to learn how to fix things and basically be able to take care of the household. It feels like we are on a space ship, drifting through time, but basking in peace and solitude.
  - vageli 6y ago
    > It feels like we are on a space ship, drifting through time, but basking in peace and solitude. This comment reminded me of this video by CGP Grey which I think you may enjoy if you haven't yet seen it. https://youtu.be/snAhsXyO3Ck https://youtu.be/snAhsXyO3Ck
    - marzell 6y ago
      Thanks for sharing this.
rwnspace 6y ago
The markdown editor listed on that page, Left, is really rather good: https://100r.co/site/left.html https://100r.co/site/left.html
- ShamelessC 6y ago

suyash 6y ago

nice to see hosted on source hut

CyberDildonics 6y ago

What is an esolang?

anamexis 6y ago
esoteric [programming] language.
- cat199 6y ago
  ooh a category so esoteric it has to invent an esoteric descriptor
  - mhd 6y ago
    "Conlang" for a constructed language (Esperanto, Klingon, Dothraki) has been around for about 30 years. I think the confusing part here isn't the informal abbreviation, it's the general concept that a programming language made to be intentionally inefficient/confusing/hard is "esoteric".
- downerending 6y ago
  Argh. These sorts of coined puzzle words need to die. (And don't even get me started on the "rona".)
  - anamexis 6y ago
    In general I agree, but I'll give this one a pass for being meta.
  - edjrage 6y ago
    Why? It's not like it's hard to Google it or even guess the meaning (at least in this particular case).
    - downerending 6y ago
      Aside from the thought that it's effete, precious, and obnoxious, it makes the headline incomprehensible just to save six letters (or to seem trendy). Ugh.

gyrgtyn 6y ago

See #ORCΛ on twitter for examples

cosmojg 6y ago
Link for the lazy/efficient: https://nitter.net/search?q=%23ORC%CE%9B https://nitter.net/search?q=%23ORC%CE%9B

sj4nz 6y ago

Thanks for reposting(?) this, I was trying to remember what this project was the last time it was mentioned on HN.

Dangeranger 6y ago

There is an excellent overview of how to use the interface by a YouTube channel called Allieway Audio[0]. It was the explanation that made this software make sense for me personally. [0] https://youtu.be/RaI_TuISSJE https://youtu.be/RaI_TuISSJE

rwhaling 6y ago

Great to see Orca on here! Really really fun to play with for generative music; I made a song with it last year that I posted: https://www.instagram.com/p/BzVjW7LBv1K/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BzVjW7LBv1K/ I also learned a lot from watching Allieway Audio's Orca series on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeo2Fo1OidWpT83BT5xmCZw/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeo2Fo1OidWpT83BT5xmCZw/vid... Orca is fascinating because it is so limited compared to most "programming languages", and trying to figure out how to express ideas 1) compactly, 2) without abstraction or recursion, and 3) flexible enough for real-time editing, is a great, rewarding challenge.

Gormisdomai 6y ago

There's a nice demo of this here https://youtu.be/RaI_TuISSJE https://youtu.be/RaI_TuISSJE (with the explanation starting 3 mins in)

metasyn 6y ago

I've been playing around with orca for a few months: its really exciting and fun to use. Here are some videos of patches I think are cool: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH5GaVU0ed8&t=72s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH5GaVU0ed8&t=72s * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ig84_4RF5E&t=50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ig84_4RF5E&t=50s * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzUQlmQvtjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzUQlmQvtjI * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_flqHdfFitw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_flqHdfFitw

shalabhc 6y ago

There's a two part podcast on futureofcoding.org with the creator of Orca, Devine Lu Linvega: https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/044 https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/044 https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/045 https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/045

spiralganglion 6y ago
Hey, I know the host of that podcast! He has some weird opinions about visual programming. Makes sense he'd be interested in Orca.
avindroth 6y ago
good community too

aldanor 6y ago

This seems to be heavily influenced by Max? Sort of like a slimmed down esoteric text version of Max with a few extra quirks.

kitotik 6y ago
I’d say closer to csound with a UI inspired by old school midi trackers.

news_to_me 6y ago

> (Also, #pragma once must be supported.) It's really interesting to me how this isn't standard C — ergonomically, it's so much nicer than the `ifndef` header guards.

RangerScience 6y ago

This looks like it could be described as a cross between Dwarf Fortress and Sonic Pi?

person_of_color 6y ago

How does this compare to SonicPi?

_spduchamp 6y ago
Different beast. Orca sends midi so you could control SonicPi.

disposedtrolley 6y ago

I remember seeing this on GitHub [1] when it was a JavaScript implementation. It'll be interesting to see how it's been ported over to C! [1] https://github.com/hundredrabbits/Orca https://github.com/hundredrabbits/Orca