21 ms·

Ask HN: Keybase Alternatives?

726 points by capableweb 7y ago

Since Keybase is being acquired by Zoom (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23102430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23102430), it would be lazy to not start looking at alternatives already I myself mostly use the following features from Keybase: Chat, KBFS, Git repositories and encrypting messages sent out-of-band via PGP in Keybase (and the various cryptographic tools [signing, validation etc]) What alternatives have the features outlined above, but are ideally either FOSS or at least not run by a for-profit company? I mainly used Keybase to make using those features easier, so please don't suggest the cli of gnupgp (or similar) as alternatives.

mvanbaak 7y ago
Chat: Pick one of the many available. telegram, signal, wickr etc etc KBFS: personally I switched to gpg encrypting important files on a NAS with encrypted backups to amazon glacier and backblaze. Git: gitlab, github, bitbucket (just to name a few) Encrypted messages out-of-band: Just use plain pgp/gpg
- tonyarkles 7y ago
  > Git: gitlab, github, bitbucket (just to name a few) None of those hide the contents of your repo from the company that's hosting it. I suppose self-hosted Gitlab hides it the same way that Keybase does (the company's software sees your repo, but it's not stored in plaintext on their disks)
  - frio 7y ago
    Yes. I _love_ Keybase Git for instant, immediate, safe backups of private repos. Keybase Git has been an absolutely killer feature for me since it came out and I'll miss it terribly if Keybase-the-software takes a turn for the worse. Now is the time to ensure I've got everything properly backed up, I guess. https://github.com/spwhitton/git-remote-gcrypt https://github.com/spwhitton/git-remote-gcrypt is probably the best alternative for now, but I'm wailing and gnashing my teeth at the prospect of going back to PGP keys. Maybe there's some way to intersect https://github.com/FiloSottile/age https://github.com/FiloSottile/age and a git remote.
    - frio 7y ago
      ... and https://rovaughn.github.io/2015-2-9.html https://rovaughn.github.io/2015-2-9.html. Maybe a weekend project hiding in here somewhere.
- seemslegit 7y ago
  telegram is not a secure chat app any more than skype or fb messenger are, there is some per-conversaion opt-in 'secure chat' feature with unknown guarantees that is not even available on the desktop client.
lucideer 7y ago
> I myself mostly use the following features from Keybase: Chat, KBFS, Git repositories and encrypting messages sent out-of-band via PGP in Keybase (and the various cryptographic tools [signing, validation etc]) While all these features are individually nice, I kinda started to worry about Keybase as a product when they started bolting on stuff like this. I think the key (pun intended) to stable & ongoing success in this space is to focus on doing one thing well. Keybase was incepted as a service for signing & validation. There's currently https://keys.pub https://keys.pub for that. I'd be interested to hear if there's others. For chat, there's a lot of competitors to choose from. I like Riot.im. For KBFS, Tresorit has been mentioned. I signed up, but haven't been super impressed with their clients yet. I'm not sure what better options are out there.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  None of these really worried me. The Stellar airdrop was my "oh shit" moment.
  - lucideer 7y ago
    These worried me. Then the airdrop panicked me! :)
  - geerlingguy 7y ago
    "Going crypto" is the new 'jumping the shark'.
    - spurgu 7y ago
      Then again "crypto" is what Keybase is all about.
  - baby 7y ago
    I can picture them being "OK I want to implement some cool cryptography stuff right now, what about a cryptocurrency wallet? Like that we can even get some funding". Honestly I would have done the same stuff, I don't see why people are mad, it doesn't make the product less good.
acasajus 7y ago
protonmail for mail/chat and protondrive (when it's released for kbfs) or tresorit
Yeri 7y ago
keys.pub does the signing/validation part
- VectorLock 7y ago
  keys.pub felt a lot like keybase when I first saw it. Now it seems like a no brainer go to replacement.
- throwaway888abc 7y ago
  That looks awesome!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
client4 7y ago
I'd suspect this is jumping the gun a lot bit. Keybase was running a free service for years and has matured a lot in the last year (post crypto debacle). There's nothing stopping them from 1. Letting Keybase go into maintenance mode. 2. Donating the server to a foundation. 3. Open sourcing there server. In all these scenarios Zoom gets better security which is a win for the world :)
- simlevesque 7y ago
  They will lost all the people working on it. The ship has sailed.
  - SkyMarshal 7y ago
    I would bet there’s enough community interest to make it a viable open source project if they open source the server code. It’s worth advocating to Keybase team for.
- capableweb 7y ago
  I'm happy if any of those three options happen, but I'm preparing for that none of them will happen.
- AlexCoventry 7y ago
  > In all these scenarios Zoom gets better security I'm more worried about the scenarios in which keybase gets worse security. Zoom's attitude to security is terrible.
  - trog 7y ago
    I am even more worried about the scenarios in which the rest of keybase ceases to exist if Zoom decide its not worth keeping online!
freewizard 7y ago
I'm expecting Matrix/Riot has some of those like chat, and will develop some more. And there'll be definitely alternatives, which is the beauty of FOSS.
deleted 7y ago
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atonse 7y ago
I am also curious here. I have used and advocated strongly for Keybase with a couple of local government clients to send sensitive files back and forth (not sensitive in the sense of national security, but more to preserve privacy and store encrypted at rest). But I want to get ahead of the concern that Keybase is now owned by a Chinese company, which instantly compromises it. PGP is dead on arrival, since it's an overcomplicated mess. Keybase felt like WireGuard for its use case, just dead simple and also secure. Update: I just want to clarify that I am happy for the Keybase team. This is clearly an Aquihire meant to bolster Zoom's security talent. And as a Zoom user, I'm generally happy about this development. But there will definitely be a concern about them being acquired by a Chinese company. Update #2: I thought about FooBarWidget and others' comments, and I'm going to alter my wording. Zoom isn't a Chinese company, but their development team has been entirely based in China all this time and there have been concerns about that (which are entirely legitimate for certain groups like governments, in my opinion), especially given their communications aren't e2e encrypted.
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  Zoom is not a Chinese company. The founder merely was born in China. He is US citizen. I am very put off by this anti-China rhetoric. Everything that even has a remote connection to China is now under suspicion. This is madness.
  - dasil003 7y ago
    Agreed, this is a huge distraction that gives cover to bad domestic policy and surveillance over-reach.
  - imglorp 7y ago
    Maybe not a Chinese company, but there's a lot of smoke around the question of control. Enough smoke to indicate fire? Eg smoke: https://citizenlab.ca/2020/04/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto-a-quick-look-at-the-confidentiality-of-zoom-meetings/ https://citizenlab.ca/2020/04/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto...
  - atonse 7y ago
SkyMarshal 7y ago
I think the only complete alternative is to successfully persuade the Keybase team to release their server code under an open source license. Their client is already open source. https://github.com/keybase https://github.com/keybase The only other alternative is a mishmash of multiple apps that each do part of what Keybase does.
- capableweb 7y ago
  That would be really great, but feels like very unlikely as well. If they could open source it, why didn't they do it before?
  - ahnick 7y ago
    Probably, because it provided them with more likely paths to monetization having everyone dependent on their server infrastructure. An argument could be made that if Zoom wants to build positive equity with the security community then open sourcing the Keybase server might be a good way to do that.
    - mdkrkeo9 7y ago
      The only positive Zoom is interested in is the rate of growth in their bank account.
  - SkyMarshal 7y ago
    Partly b/c when Keybase was in due dilligence with Zoom they wouldn’t make any major decisions like that. Now that the deal is done and appears to have been primarily an acquihire focused on adding E2E to Zoom, Keybase may be low enough priority for Zoom that open sourcing it is a viable option now. Eg, it doesn’t sound like Zoom wants to allocate any dev time to Keybase, wants to stay focused on Zoom, and probably can’t sell Keybase without its developer team who are all working on Zoom now. So hopefully they’ll just open source it and let the community take over.
- ahnick 7y ago
  Recent github issue opened for this -> https://github.com/keybase/client/issues/24105 https://github.com/keybase/client/issues/24105
wayneftw 7y ago
Honest question: What function does a server perform in end to end encryption? Because I see that the Keybase client is open source but not the server…
- xrd 7y ago
  You have to exchange data (public keys and the actual encrypted content) and if you can't do that peer to peer, you need something that facilitates that. For example, webrtc clients can talk over an encrypted channel to each other p2p if they are inside the same network. If not they need a TURN server to relay that information and do NAT (firewall traversal). For obvious reasons no one wants to be the service provider of anonymous encrypted content, hence a business opportunity.
ParadisoShlee 7y ago
Hopefully something with Activitypub can be created... splitting up lots of independent Keybases connected using federation protocols would be rad.
rasengan 7y ago
Handshake [1] is a great keybase alternative that doesn’t even rely on centralization. All information is verifiable with the blockchain acting as the root of trust. [1] https://handshake.org https://handshake.org
- SkyMarshal 7y ago
  I thought Handshake was decentralized DNS server. Keybase is primarily a secure chat app. Does Handshake have chat, chat room, and team chat functionality too?
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    >Keybase is primarily a secure chat app. Isn't that chat pretty new in Keybase's history?
    - sleepybrett 7y ago
      Just over three years.
  - rasengan 7y ago
    > Keybase is primarily a secure chat app. It looks like keybase has morphed since I've last looked at it. I recall its primary function being that of a Web of Trust-like system for different public keys and addresses. > Does Handshake have chat, chat room, and team chat functionality too? That said, with additional tools, Handshake also improves end to end encryption services since you can actually place fingerprints/certificates on the blockchain so you can actually verify these instead of just 'hitting yes' like most people appear to do when using e2e chat applications. As a bonus, it also improves web security since there are hundreds of actors who can generate 'valid' certificates today. This becomes impossible with Handshake.
  - capableweb 7y ago
    > Keybase is primarily a secure chat app I guess it depends on the user, but the key feature of Keybase (for me) is the web of trust I've built over the years now, and secondary is the features built on top of that web of trust.
sylvain_kerkour 7y ago
Hi, I'm developing Bloom[0] which is an entirely FOSS encrypted[1] and offline-first (but with multi-devices sync!) productivity app which features Files, contacts, calendar and notes. So no chat nor Git, but everything else :) If you are interested in joining the (coming soon) beta, feel free to contact me: https://bloom.sh/contact https://bloom.sh/contact [0] https://gitlab.com/bloom42/bloom https://gitlab.com/bloom42/bloom [1] https://gitlab.com/bloom42/bloom/-/wikis/security https://gitlab.com/bloom42/bloom/-/wikis/security
- alexriabtsev 7y ago
  am I right that it's Google apps FOSS alternatives?
  - sylvain_kerkour 7y ago
    Yes :) I launched it last June but it was a webApp. Time have passed and the project has switched to native apps to offer what Google (and the web) can't offer: offline first and end-to-end encryption. So it offers the same services as Google, but with better (in my opinion) features.
    - alexriabtsev 7y ago
      can I get beta invite?
- sunaurus 7y ago
  As a heavy Keybase user, this looks promising. Is the lack of chat a permanent decision, or is it just something that's planned for later?
  - sylvain_kerkour 7y ago
    Thank you! Currently it's not planned because it's a lack of focus and I believe that the existing alternatives (Signal & Matrix) are really good. Adding encrypted email is envisaged but it will be considered once the other features have reached stability (Email is such a mess...)
FunnyLookinHat 7y ago
The big feature for me is easy and secure backup of things like dotfiles (and it not being secured ONLY by a password). I may just combine gpg and a private S3 bucket now along with some simple bash tooling.
- mk4p 7y ago
  Exactly how I'd been using it - keeping my dotfiles in a git repo that's not at GitHub.
frellus 7y ago
Why not Mattermost (https://mattermost.com/ https://mattermost.com/)? If the key feature of keybase was encrypted chat, seems like Mattermost solves the problem. Or Signal?
- mawalu 7y ago
  Why would mattermost solve that?
hexandcube 7y ago
I've only heard about https://keys.pub https://keys.pub
ianopolous 7y ago
If anyone's looking for a fully open source, decentralized encrypted filesystem similar to KBFS, then checkout Peergos[1][2]. It's built on top of IPFS. [1] https://book.peergos.org https://book.peergos.org [2] https://github.com/peergos/peergos https://github.com/peergos/peergos [disclaimer: Peergos founder]
cybdnb 7y ago
Thanks keybase for the free 100$ worth of lumens. You'll be remembered fondly.
- 3JPLW 7y ago
  What have you done with your lumens?
  - aquabeagle 7y ago
    Immediately sold them and kept the cash
    - coldpie 7y ago
      The most embarrassing pump-and-dump in recent memory.
      - l33tguy 7y ago
        I will always love them for this.
  - cybdnb 7y ago
    I'm hodling them of course
  - dhagz 7y ago
    I converted mine to regular bitcoin.
  - morpheuskafka 7y ago
    I converted to some other coin and bought an AirVPN subscription for a year, donated $15 to the Tor Project, and I have about $40 left now.
- astrostl 7y ago
  I totally forgot about that. Turns out I have 6000 lumens. Thanks!
zelly 7y ago
https://pgp.mit.edu/ https://pgp.mit.edu/ has been around before and will be around after Keybase is long gone.
giancarlostoro 7y ago
Since nobody's mentioned Wire, it's not a 1:1 alternative but it's close in terms of chat. I don't think any 1:1 alternative to KeyBase will rise up anytime soon, hosting git and files will be a bit to build up to. Website: https://wire.com/en/ https://wire.com/en/ Their backend is open source unlike KeyBase: https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server
- Aachen 7y ago
  We've been using Wire in our company for a few years now, I can't say it's a great UX or bug-free, but it gets the job done and supports most things we want like being available on all platforms, key verification (proper e2ee, not like Keybase that trusts the server on first use), (group) calling and (group) video calling, audited, open source, sending files of course, timed/expiring messages, no need for a phone number upon registering... it's really quite complete if you're willing to put up with it being a sluggish web/electron client. Well, and the network effect: I wish more people were on it so that wouldn't be a barrier, but Keybase had the same issue there so this might be a good place for Keybase users to continue chatting.
  - AnonC 7y ago
    Have to agree on the Wire clients being sluggish. I’ve seen this on all platforms I use (even on mobile). Otherwise it’s so nice to have something that doesn’t require a phone number and allows up to three accounts to be setup in a client for free users.
  - nopcode 7y ago
    Wire is great on paper (and PowerPoint slides). Not on my machines.
- morpheuskafka 7y ago
  I used it a few years ago and I thought the US was pretty good on iOS at least.
karanganesan 7y ago
Signal App - Completely open source https://signal.org/en/ https://signal.org/en/
- expialidocious 7y ago
  Does signal still require me to share a phone number?
  - nske 7y ago
    It does (or at least did, when I was using it). It only requires it for registration, so you could even use a disposable phone number, but regardless it is a nonsensical choice for something that could aspire to be a general-purpose chat application. The server is open-source so you could host your own server -though that's not very practical due to the client situation (not really a variety of configurable ones, so you'd probably need to change/package/distribute the official).
- nske 7y ago
  I used Signal for more than a year. Unfortunately compared to Keybase's chat, it is buggy, slow and lackluster in functionality.
INTPenis 7y ago
The main thing I miss about keybase is the signing and verification of public resources like Github, mastodon accounts and personal websites.
spladug 7y ago
If you just want to share your public key safely, a .well-known directory on your domain works these days: https://wiki.gnupg.org/WKD https://wiki.gnupg.org/WKD
- carapace 7y ago
  Ah that's awesome! I've never heard of that before. Thank you!
- Arkanosis 7y ago
  Just a quick note on WKD since I've been bitten by this a few days ago: as soon as you set it up, some people will start using your keys automatically, without even knowing it (eg. it seems that ProtonMail automatically uses keys found on a WKD to encrypt outgoing mails). While in itself it's not a bad idea, you'd better prepare for this to avoid looking stupid like me, when you receive a casual encrypted mail and you're not able to read it (my private keys are air-gapped and until now I only expected to receive PGP-encrypted mail if it was worth the effort to read it offline).
  - oefrha 7y ago
    Using WKD is also a good way to solicit useless “security”-related emails from people running questionable automated scanners.
    - JBiserkov 7y ago
      That's why we can't have nice things :-( As soon as something is well-known, it will be abused by spammers/scammers.
    - Boulth 7y ago
      I think you confused this with security.txt standard. WKD is not enumerable (unless explicitly configured like that) so the issue doesn't exist.
  - AnonC 7y ago
    > ...when you receive a casual encrypted mail and you're not able to read it (my private keys are air-gapped... Could you elaborate on why you put your public key in well-known and also how (and for what purposes) you use your air-gapped private key? As an average user, I’ve always been worried about private keys being stolen or lost.
sapir 7y ago
what do you think about it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Bt3jEhIwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Bt3jEhIwA
- carapace 7y ago
  (Just to let you know I automatically downvote links to Youtube that have no description of what to expect. Nothing personal.) That was weird, but not bad. But it doesn't have anything to do with this thread. (It's a funky dance video.) You seem to be spamming that link on HN. Please don't. You'll just get banned.
CalmStorm 7y ago
I have been working on this decentralized key-value database: https://github.com/kevacoin-project/kevacoin https://github.com/kevacoin-project/kevacoin Together with W3C's draft Decentralized Identifiers (DID: https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/ https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/), it could provide a decentralized alternative. Not sure what is the best way to verify Twitter/Github account though. This has to be managed by users themselves. E.g. one user posts a proof in the Twitter account, the other user verifies the proof by checking the proof against the public key posted in the database.
- SujiYan 7y ago
  Take a look of GunDB for DB? Also for binding social account -- maybe take a look of https://Maskbook.com https://Maskbook.com & https://github.com/DimensionDev/Maskbook https://github.com/DimensionDev/Maskbook - able to send encrypted post/comment on fb/twitter etc
covidcovidcovid 7y ago
10 years ago I was able to get good result from ads, but now it is an absolute waste of money and it's not worth it anymore.
niyikiza 7y ago
What's a good business model for this kind of company?https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23106043 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23106043
- dennyabraham 7y ago
  I would pay business money, for a way to manage, simply and conveniently, trusted developer identities (via a web of trust) to validate software packages. This is something of a larger concern, but if that was their product goal, it is a thing I would attach a dollar figure to
misrab 7y ago
Ethereum.
- neets 7y ago
  Okay and???
- hexandcube 7y ago
  What does Etereum have to do with keybase?
nanomonkey 7y ago
Scuttlebutt is an open source p2p gossip network (no central servers) that includes clients that implement chat, blogging, git and github replacements, Shamir's Secret sharing (splitting up a secret by encrypting it so that a number of your friends are needed to decrypt, via Dark Crystal [https://darkcrystal.pw/] https://darkcrystal.pw/]), games and probably more that I am forgetting. You could easily place your public keys in your user profile.
- Aachen 7y ago
  Just looked in the repository, looks like there is an app for it on f-droid. Do you have experience with Manyverse / would you recommend it? app https://f-droid.org/app/se.manyver https://f-droid.org/app/se.manyver / website https://www.manyver.se/ https://www.manyver.se/
  - m52go 7y ago
    I've downloaded Manyverse from F-Droid so many times, hoping to finally use it for real...but I never could. I was particularly excited recently when an iOS app was released. If you have a really close group of techy friends who don't mind hiccups and tinkering and don't mind a strictly non-private social medium, maybe it could work. However, if you're trying to use it with normies, you might be disappointed. Private messages don't work at all, in my experience. Syncing with a pub server takes a couple of restarts, and there is no indicator in the GUI that any syncing is happening, so the user is left guessing. I have nothing but respect for Andre Staltz and all the dedication and work that he and others have put into the app (and ecosystem) but, at least for me, it's just not quite there yet.
    - Aachen 7y ago
      Sad to hear but thanks for the info!
    - 627467 7y ago
      I'm only a recent user of SSB, many of the problems you describe seems related to the inherent nature of the protocol making it hard to onboard (ie. You almost always would need access to a pub to connect to the first few users). On iOS you could try https://planetary.social/ https://planetary.social/
newztech11 7y ago
think the key (pun intended) to stable & ongoing success in this space is to focus on doing one thing well
SamWhited 7y ago
For e2e encrypted chat there's https://conversations.im https://conversations.im. I've been using it for a while since it lets me bring my own domain and have been very happy. The Android client supports encryption with PGP keys and OMEMO (a double ratchet like Signal uses with some nice key trust options added on top to make it easy for novices, but configurable by experts).
- m4lvin 7y ago
  A few days ago Conversations also learned how to make audio and video calls :-)
sproketboy 7y ago
What, you don't want teenagers hacking into your messages with p0rn?
rebblumstein 7y ago
Can someone ELI5 why an alternative is really needed here?
- rasengan 7y ago
  There needs to be a way to verify keys and identity when using encryption as well as when using public key operations as a method of authentication in general. Keybase, a centralized service, provided this ability [1]. Now that it was acquired by Zoom who has a history of poor privacy policies [2], people are looking for an alternative. One suggested alternative is Handshake [3], a decentralized system. [1] https://book.keybase.io/guides/proof-integration-guide https://book.keybase.io/guides/proof-integration-guide [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/02/zoom-technology-security-coronavirus-video-conferencing https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/02/zoom-tech... [3] https://handshake.org/ https://handshake.org/
- otachack 7y ago
  Keybase was acquired by Zoom, and the statement from Keybase reflects that they'll mostly be focusing on Zoom products rather than Keybase product line, hinting it may get abandoned.
jamieweb 7y ago
I'm not seeing much mention in this thread of the cryptographically-linked identities feature of Keybase, i.e. where you can link your Website, Twitter, Reddit, HN, etc. As far as I know, that was Keybase's initial offering, which they then built on top of to create a full suite of applications. Although to play the Devil's advocate - while the feature is cool and implemented nicely, I doubt that many people actually use it beyond the novelty factor.
- samatman 7y ago
  I've had one person use it to find me after a conference, confirm my various online identities (he only had one handle to work with), and contact me securely. That leadededededed to paying work, so it was important even if it only happened one time.
  - AnonC 7y ago
    > That lead to paying work Typo: it should be “led”, not “lead”
    - samatman 7y ago
      typo corrected, thanks!!
      - streb-lo 7y ago
        : )
neets 7y ago
Can someone suggest an alternative for encrypted git?
- hellcow 7y ago
  upspin? https://upspin.io/ https://upspin.io/
- Snawoot 7y ago
  git-remote-gcrypt: https://github.com/spwhitton/git-remote-gcrypt https://github.com/spwhitton/git-remote-gcrypt It's available in most distro repositories and works with almost any underlying remote repos.
stickac 7y ago
https://keys.pub https://keys.pub
lihaciudaniel 7y ago
Unironically WhatsApp it has its own end to end encryption
ereyes01 7y ago
upspin.io seemed like a strong decentralized alternative from the same people who maintain the Go language, but unfortunately it seems defunct, judging by it's GitHub activity. Anyone know if it has been forked and maintained elsewhere?
vbezhenar 7y ago
GPG works, I don't know why anyone thought that anything else is needed.
- wglb 7y ago
  See https://latacora.micro.blog/2019/07/16/the-pgp-problem.html https://latacora.micro.blog/2019/07/16/the-pgp-problem.html. I don't recommend it.
divbzero 7y ago
The Keybase acquisition is a reminder of the potential fragility of using centralized services (root servers, GitHub, CAs) to support decentralized tools (DNS, Git, TLS). > ideally either FOSS or at least not run by a for-profit company I agree with these aims, but ideally I’d hope for the alternatives to be decentralized as well.
sterlind 7y ago
I host a git repo on Keybase. Is there a replacement specifically for this feature? I don't want to host the plaintext on any cloud, but I want the ciphertext to be highly available and easily re-encrypted in case of compromise.
gnu 7y ago
keybase is unfortunately one of those programs that combine many things into one - somewhat antithetical to the Unix philosophy of doing one thing well. For kbfs, tahoe-lafs is a nice alternative. I don't know about the fuse interface as I haven't used it, but it has some solid fundamentals behind it, actively being developed and can be self hosted. GPG still works! GPG also is a swiss army knife, unfortunately. There is OpenBSD signify (or minisign) if you want signatures. There is also age - https://github.com/FiloSottile/age https://github.com/FiloSottile/age
SujiYan 7y ago
We're working on a solution for user to link their Fb/twitter identity to a decentralized ID and post encrypted post/comment (even sending any crypto over) on Fb/twitter only viewable by friends *(not able to decrypted by Fb or NSA) - https://maskbook.com https://maskbook.com Source code: https://github.com/DimensionDev/Maskbook https://github.com/DimensionDev/Maskbook For now we're trying to integrate decentralized FS solution as well so eventually Fb/twitter can be merely an infrastructure layer
tkeeler 7y ago
I'm a light user of Keybase and used it primarily for validation & signing. The social identity verification was quite nice. It seems that's what most of the users here were using it for. My suspicion is while we're not likely to see much new development from Keybase, the existing capabilities aren't likely to go away for some time. The premise of validation/signing isn't a technically complex approach and I'm sure someone can create and FOSS it. The question however is - what features would you want integrated and what things did you find annoying?
eddieoz 7y ago
Bitrated is an interesting alternative for identity/reputation validation - wot based: https://www.bitrated.com https://www.bitrated.com
baby 7y ago
A bit late, but I just wrote https://cryptologie.net/article/502/alternatives-to-pgp/ https://cryptologie.net/article/502/alternatives-to-pgp/
zsoltsandor 7y ago
You can do the PGP part in a decentralized way with notations and proof-specific posts - including HN: https://metacode.biz/openpgp/proofs https://metacode.biz/openpgp/proofs And then there is WKD if you have a hosted site: https://metacode.biz/openpgp/web-key-directory https://metacode.biz/openpgp/web-key-directory

oefrha 7y ago
This “development team entirely based out of China” bullshit is so easily debunked it’s not even funny. A simple glance at the list of open positions could tell you it’s false. https://zoom.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/Zoom https://zoom.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/Zoom
- richardwhiuk 7y ago
  Unless they've made a major shift, it's definitely true: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead-of-ipo-engineers-in-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead...
  - oefrha 7y ago
    It’s pretty hard to argue with someone who can’t see the difference between largely and entirely.
    - samatman 7y ago
      If you have reason to be concerned about the CCP undermining your communications infrastructure, it's a distinction without a difference. Like yes, you're correct, the person you're replying to is wrong. But the reason they brought it up remains valid with the correction.
      - oefrha 7y ago
        If someone first makes a false accusation, then post a “correction” only to double down on a lesser yet still false accusation, I’d say it’s reason enough to conclude that they’re arguing in bad faith and attempting to slander. You don’t need to spread false information to make a possibly valid point. People also increasingly use this sort of “yeah, they play fast and loose with facts but they have a point so cheers” to defend garbage journalism and I’m not a fan at all.
        atonse 7y ago
        If you're getting hung up about the difference of me saying "entirely" and "largely" – yeah ok you're right. Mathematically, for the word "entirely" to be true, it would have to be every single breathing soul at zoom that ever touches any tech. I actually did mis-read from an older article that all their development is done in China (the language is that their R&D and tech teams are concentrated in China). Hence I said entirely. But yes let's go with largely. This is an argument about who has jurisdiction to force the altering of parts of their tech stack. Entirely vs Largely: Does that do _anything_ to alter my concerns? Nope.
        seppin 7y ago
        > If someone first makes a false accusation, then post a “correction” only to double down on a lesser yet still false accusation, I’d say it’s reason enough to conclude that they’re arguing in bad faith and attempting to slander. You aren't listening to what he's saying: "If you have reason to be concerned about the CCP undermining your communications infrastructure, it's a distinction without a difference. The reason they brought it up remains valid with the correction."
        PikachuEXE 7y ago
        For me I just stop responding to anyone focusing on minor details and missing the point Anything related to China CCP has large enough security concern chance. This is due to political motive to have control of information flow on everything they can. Any team in China can be enforced to provide one or more means to obtain more data or can't operate smoothly. (See Google) This is not "anti-China", more like "anti anti-privacy" (what's the opposite of privacy?). Same goes for any US company that does anti-privacy things like Google.
        LilBytes 7y ago
        Your distinction here is 100% on the money. We're not talking legalese, we're talking about privacy. It's quite easy to defame an argument by nitpicking, but the holistic view that anything developed or with tightly or loosely coupled links to China by default. Explicitly should be called out as being untrusted.
dang 7y ago
If you want to clarify that that's not where you're coming from, aggressive swipes like "please spare me the rubbish" have to go. It's against the HN guidelines to post like that, so please edit it out in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

msla 7y ago

> I am very put off by this anti-China rhetoric. It isn't anti-China, it's anti-PRC. The difference is obvious.

yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
China is an authoritarian one-party state. There might be a difference, but it's pretty slim.
- msla 7y ago
  > China is an authoritarian one-party state. There might be a difference, but it's pretty slim. China is a culture with a very long history, like all cultures, and a diasporic population, not to mention all of the Chinese people under the rule of the Republic of China on Taiwan. Confusing the PRC with the entirety of Chinese people, Chinese culture, and China as a whole is rather similar to refusing to distinguish between Nazis and Germans, and only serves to either make criticism of the PRC impossible, since one can always accuse the critic of racism, or make defense of the Chinese people and culture impossible, since it will be taken as burnishing the PRC.
  - rimjongun 7y ago
    Nobody is confusing Chinese people with the PRC. Stop muddying the waters of an important and policy impacting conversation.
    - msla 7y ago
      Someone in this very thread is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23111557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23111557
      - FooBarWidget 7y ago
        I am not confusing CCP with the entirety of Chinese people, culture and history, as I have already explained elsewhere. I am, however, claiming that the CCP is massively intertwined with mainland Chinese people. See this article that explains this in more detail: https://oxfordpoliticalreview.com/amp/2020/04/24/china-series-1/ https://oxfordpoliticalreview.com/amp/2020/04/24/china-serie... So if you say "I am against CCP, not the Chinese people", then that statement only makes sense if you exclude "many many mainlanders" from the definition of "Chinese people". Which makes the statement rather weak, or even nonsensical. You say that if we accept this intertwine, it makes criticism impossible. Not so. You can still criticize the CCP, but you need to be more nuanced with your criticism, do more due diligence instead of merely rehashing western narratives, and realize that you're criticizing the CCP and the people at the same time (which could be entirely legit). I therefore argue that recognizing the CCP - mainland people intertwine is a good thing, as it makes criticism more honest, more accurate, and possibly more helpful/constructive. No longer can you put all the blame on "just the bad guys" -- all of us mainlanders are complicit in some sense. We all own the problem, so we can't stop at just blaming, and have to actually find a solution.
rimjongun 7y ago
PRC = China for conversations regarding government policy and potential privacy violations and undue pressure on development. The same concerns could be had for software developed in the U.S. US Gov = U.S. for all intents and purposes with regard to this topic. Now you're just splitting hairs.
- msla 7y ago
  > Now you're just splitting hairs. No, I am not. I am hitting on something which makes some people angry. There's a difference. As long as the Republic of China is independent, this isn't hair-splitting. > The same concerns could be had for software developed in the U.S. Of course not. The US isn't an authoritarian regime.
  - akimball 7y ago
    Try to effect some justice, and you'll quickly learn how authoritarian the US is.
    - msla 7y ago
      I have, and you're wrong.

vikramkr 7y ago

Yeah, Zoom is a US based company. Yes, they have a development team in China. It is valid to be concerned about the Chinese government exercising control of some sort over the local development team to put in a backdoor, just as our government seems to want to do to US developed products. No politicians really seem to like encryption very much. This is an overall geopolitical risk not unique to Zoom. But Zoom is not a Chinese company, it falls under US jurisdiction. And sovereign security risks are not unique to Chinese companies. Just saying that Zoom needs to be treated with caution because it is a "Chinese company" is lazy and inaccurate, and incorrectly characterizes both Zoom and where that risk originates.

atonse 7y ago
Yes, and I've clarified and fixed my originally badly described wording. I'll let Zoom describe this themselves. From Zoom's S-1 [1]: "In addition, we have a high concentration of research and development personnel in China, which could expose us to market scrutiny regarding the integrity of our solution or data security features. Any security compromise in our industry, whether actual or perceived, could harm our reputation, erode confidence in the effectiveness of our security measures, negatively affect our ability to attract new customers and hosts, cause existing customers to elect not to renew their subscriptions or subject us to third-party lawsuits, regulatory fines or other action or liability, which could harm our business." [1] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/000119312519083351/d642624ds1.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/000119312519...
- vikramkr 7y ago
  Thanks for clarifying that, and yes, Zoom's s-1 writers did a good job of laying it out. The risks are real, and presenting them in an incorrect way makes it easy for people to dismiss the risks when they shouldn't. If the times comes because they're a Chinese company, and you check and see that they're a delaware c corp founded by a US citizen headquartered in the US, that would lead you to discount that risk. Clarifying that the risk comes from the development team being in a country where the government is in a contentious trade relationship with the US with an authoritarian regime (especially if the dev team isn't in one of the special economic zones) helps highlight what the risk is and confirm that it is a real threat.
- uoaei 7y ago
  > Any publicized security compromise in our industry, whether actual or perceived, could harm our reputation... FTFY
seppin 7y ago
> It is valid to be concerned about the Chinese government exercising control of some sort over the local development team to put in a backdoor, just as our government seems to want to do to US developed products. Chinese companies legally cannot refuse a government request for data. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law Comparing that with US/EU private sector protections is absurd.
- doomrobo 7y ago
  I can't find your claim in the linked Wikipedia page. What section?
  - seppin 7y ago
    First section: > It requires network operators to store select data within China and allows Chinese authorities to conduct spot-checks on a company's network operations. More has been reported about the implications of the law: > China’s National Intelligence Law from 2017 requires organizations and citizens to “support, assist and cooperate with the state intelligence work.” https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/05/huawei-would-have-to-give-data-to-china-government-if-asked-experts.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/05/huawei-would-have-to-give-da...

carapace 7y ago

C'mon: Hong Kong, persecution of Uighurs and Falun Gong and political prisoners and artists and journalists and anyone who talks about Taiwan or the Tienanmen Square Massacre, IP theft, cyber attacks, political aggression in the South China Sea ("Nine-Dash Line"), not to mention trying to expend their censorship apparatus internationally! I like China but the CCP is a problem.

seppin 7y ago
> You raise an interesting point when you ask me to explain why I think HN is anti-China. It was so self-evident to me, but apparently you don't experience it as such. Maybe the HN crowd is not so much anti-China, but rather just misinformed, by virtue of living in the western media bubble which paints a one-sided picture of China. Again, you're not actually saying anything here, these are just your perceptions. > I see so many extreme, obviously untrue information, that I see this as anti-China. Right as I said it seems that you view all criticism of the Chinese Communist Party as criticism of China and Chinese people. This makes you a (ethno)nationalist, which is ironically another western stereotype. That Chinese see all criticism of China as criticism of them personally. > And Chinese media is very weak against such unsubstantiated attacks. How can I sit back, see all the lies and bullying, and not hope that Chinese media gets their act together? It's hard to make any conclusion other than you see the CCP as fighting for your image as well as their own. I'm wondering if you are willing to concede this is the case, and if so how do you suggest someone like me to attempt any sort of dialogue? Seems self-defeating. And if in your opinion I got something wrong, what is it? Thanks for your response ahead of time, I come in good faith to better understand you and your perspective.
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  Okay, I am glad you are willing to discuss in good faith. Thank you for elaborating your point of view. I will admit that I have an emotional bond with China, by virtue of being born there. If you define nationalist as anyone who feels as having a personal stake at the reputation of a country, then I guess I am. I wish for the country to develop, to be prosperous, to be recognized as an equal (more on this later) and to be treated fairly. I do not personally agree with that definition, because I see a nationalist as someone who accepts their country unquestionably, and someone who thinks their country is better than others. I conform to neither of those properties. China does have many problems, it’s lagging behind the west in many aspects. If you want me to list some (besides the obvious freedom of speech things): support for disabled people is not very good, hygiene of public toilets is poor, social safety net is not as good as e.g. Netherlands, the tendency of local governments to cover up bad news thanks to structural problems with incentives. I also don’t think China is better than others, I merely wish for it to be able to stand as an equal (in value, not in likeness) among western countries. Respect other countries, and be respected in return. In this sense, you can also say I am a Dutch nationalist. Having lived in the Netherlands for longer than in China, I have absorbed many western ideas and ideals, some of which I think China should embrace better. I also wish for the Dutch to be well, and despite the high taxes and rigid rules here I am pretty glad at how well-managed the country is. You suspect that CCP is deliberately instilling nationalism in order to make Chinese people unwilling to accept criticism against CCP. Here are my thoughts: - For myself, it is not true. I lived in China until early primary school. I did learn a vague sense of being proud of being Chinese, but that isn’t very different from how e.g. Americans learn to be proud of their country. I didn’t learn much history yet, nor how the state works or how other foreign countries worked. Everything after age 8 was Dutch education. But I have always felt a disconnect between what here in the west I am told about China, vs my own experience and what family tell me. Only recently have I started to do my own research to learn where this disconnect comes from, and how Chinese history was like. - This presupposes that the CCP can be neatly separated from the mainland people. And that if we cannot, then criticism is impossible. I agree with neither: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23124883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23124883 - The more I learn about Chinese history, the more I think you’ve got it backwards. The CCP derives legitimacy from preexisting nationalism. It was already there before the PRC founding, the CCP didn’t create it. The CCP top leadership are actually moderates: they try to suppress nationalism rather than making it bigger. For example: there is a saying that if the mainland Chinese were allowed to vote, they would’ve already launched an invasion against Taiwan already; while the CCP is happy with the status quo without openly saying it. - I don’t know how much it applies to HN, but in the wider world, I see the statement ‘I am against CCP, not Chinese people’ being used merely as lip service. For example: Trump invoking the Hong Kong Freedom bill, and many people cheering on it, but the only thing the bill does is hurting HK economy and thus the livelihood of ordinary Hong Kong citizen. I suspect many people are sincere about the abstract idea of that statement, but they haven’t given any thought about what it means in more practical, realistic terms. And at the same time, many other people are not being sincere at all, and merely use the statement as a cover for racism. - I do think criticism against CCP is okay, but I am not seeing a lot of fair criticism. I see a lot of double standards, where CCP is criticized for something while other parties are not. I see a lot of criticism that’s based on either false info, or info with dubious evidence. Such dubious evidence is often accepted without question, even though when it comes to other countries people would’ve probably done a better job scrutinizing. Imagine that everybody thinks Netherlands is a country of drug addicts and prostitutes, and that that is what people talk about all the time. I wouldn’t be happy about that either. - A lot of criticism isn’t per se wrong, but does assume that western values are universally correct. The more I learn about history, the more I cast doubt on this. Western values arose under very specific circumstances. Mainland China has a very different history, so the values there are different. The insistence on criticizing the CCP from the viewpoint of western values, comes over to me as imposing one’s values on others. Some mainland Chinese values arose specifically because of western imperialism, so this imposition even comes over as hypocritical or tone-deaf at times. - So much emphasis on criticism, but I think what we need is more emphasis on solutions. I mean: many problems in China aren't going to be solved by overthrowing the CCP (if that is at all possible). This isn't as simple as kicking out the bad guys and things will be better. For better or worse, and for all its faults, the CCP is still the only government that truly advances mainland Chinese people's interests; no other government will do it for them, and any post-CCP government will not necessarily be better than CCP. Rather than focusing on criticism, I think we need to focus on mutual understanding and finding ways to cooperate. The CCP will not feel inclined to accept western values as long as they believe that they are being treated as inferior instead of as equals, and that those values are a thinly veiled excuse for overthrowing them and for ignoring the west's own problems. I hope this clears things up. If you have more questions or thoughts, I would be happy to engage.

FooBarWidget 7y ago
> What is the "different side to the story" of involuntary organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners? It's about the accuracy of the claim that there's involuntary harvesting going on: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harvesting-cult-falun-gong/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harve... There was harvesting going on of prisoners that have already been executed. China admitted as much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbxvZ2lIR08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbxvZ2lIR08 This practice has stopped since 2015. > Anyway, I don't get my news from Twitter. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do about the fact that most media outlets don't publish videos like these. But the video footage speak for themselves. Here's evidence of rioters setting a man on fire for disagreeing with them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gblPwStlsQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gblPwStlsQs If you are interested in a more long-form discussion about what's going on in Hong Kong, check out Daniel Dumbrill, a Canadian who lived in Hong Kong and now lives in Shenzhen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQx5NKAfueg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQx5NKAfueg > I'll read that article, FWIW. Cheers. Thanks. I'm already plenty glad that you're at least willing to take a look, even if you disagree. > But I can tell you what I mean when I say that. All right, point taken. For the sake of discussion, I'll limit my scope here to mainlanders, not the diaspora. I'll also tell you my point of view. I was born in the mainland, I now live in the Netherlands. My wife is a mainlander too. You're right that China as a culture and civilization is older than the CPP. Having said that, having studied China's history, I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland. > You cannot possibly know that with any certainty in a regime that punishes criticism! The claim that it's a "regime that punishes criticism" is overblown. There's a core of truth, but overblown. Things haven't been that extreme since the 70s. Nowadays there are many people who do in fact criticize the government. For some perspective, try this video. This is an interview between an American and a Canadian, who both live in China. They discuss their experience with Chinese society, and things (including things about the government) are different from what they thought it is based on western views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI It also kinda depends on what you mean by criticize. If you try to incite riots or government overthrow, or if you work with foreign agencies -- yeah they REALLY don't like that sort of stuff, and you'll get into a lot of trouble. But for more perspective, try this example: In 2019 there were protests in Guangdong about the building of a crematorium. https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-huazhou-guangdong/ https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua... The government did not arrest the peaceful protesters. They did arrest the violent ones, but even those were released later. Eventually, the government gave the protesters what they wanted. > People lie when you've got a big stick in your hand to beat them with if you don't like what you hear, eh? The people I talked to are on a VPN, operating on western websites, talking to me in private. The Chinese government is not monitoring those conversations. Having lived in the west for so long, I also studied China for quite a while. The more I study, the more I realize that the western view of CCP is... not exactly wrong, but very very problematic.
- carapace 7y ago
  Well met! I hope I don't sound like some maniac. In re: the organ harvesting, I really hope you're right. I mean I really fervently hope you're right. (It reminds me of the Walled City of Kowloon. I saw a BBC documentary about it and was haunted for years. Then one day I looked it up and, lo and behold, they had torn it down years ago. Always value new information, eh?) > But the video footage speak for themselves. But they don't. I'm not going to watch that (I have firm policy not to watch footage of IRL death. I watched "Faces of Death" in high school with my friends and regretted it.) but whatever it shows I'm not a video expert so I can't tell what it actually is: it could be fake, or even deepfake. (FWIW I am firmly against setting people on fire, under pretty much any circumstance, for pretty much any reason. I think we can all agree that things have gone too far when someone gets immolated.) When you get right down to it, I have no idea what's really going on over there, and no way of finding out. The best I can do is go by things like the actual formal actions of the CCP, which don't seem good. (Although, as I say that, I recall that they presided over one of, if not the, greatest economic transformation on Earth. So: good job on that. Credit where credit is due.) > check out Daniel Dumbrill Despite what I just said, I'll do that. Always value new information, eh? > I'll also tell you my point of view. I was born in the mainland, I now live in the Netherlands. My wife is a mainlander too. You're right that China as a culture and civilization is older than the CPP. Having said that, having studied China's history, I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland. Cheers! Well met. FWIW, I'm serious when I say I like China. Y'all are like a stern and distant Grandfather: wise and kind but also a little frightening. Don't tell the other Americans I said that, though, okay? ;-) For me, it's useful emotionally to distinguish and blame "the Commies" because that way I can say to myself that Chinese people aren't to blame for the fucked up things the CCP does. In the USA, I feel that we are kind of all to blame for things like invading Iraq on a pretext, or electing a human cartoon character to be POTUS. > I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland. Yeah... * sigh * me too. But I don't like it. It's been long enough IMO, and they are stable enough (again in my almost-worthless opinion) and the UN let them in, yeah? Honestly, we over here were all set for the great Eastern Glasnost, if you will, and it's really a downer that China seems hung up on sabre-rattling. Can't we all just settle down and make some money? There are asteroids and Mars and places to go and things to do... > The claim that it's a "regime that punishes criticism" is overblown. There's a core of truth, but overblown. Things haven't been that extreme since the 70s. Nowadays there are many people who do in fact criticize the government. Again, I really and sincerely hope you are right! As an American the very idea that someone from the government would get on my case for speech is preposterous. "Donald Trump is a pathetic excuse for a President!" See? No one cares. But jokes aside, as long as the CCP is punishing criticism at all they'll never be fully legitimate (again, in my all-but-worthless opinion!) It's a weakness. Same with trying to rewrite history. They either have to get their act together and be big enough to admit mistakes -or- pressure the rest of the whole wide world into toeing the line on their political picture-show. That sets them on an inevitable clash with Western-style freedom of speech. It's bad policy even for a legitimate government. The stability of China is crucial to the whole world. If the legitimate government is weak that's a cause for concern. But again, I know just enough about China to know how inadequate my knowledge is, so this is all just the ranting of a rando on the internet, eh? :-) > For some perspective, try this video I will. Despite it all, always value new information, eh? > In 2019 there were protests in Guangdong about the building of a crematorium. https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua.. https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua.... The government did not arrest the peaceful protesters. They did arrest the violent ones, but even those were released later. Eventually, the government gave the protesters what they wanted. Okay, but that happens here too. That wasn't the same thing as standing in front of the White House with a sign saying "Donald Trump is Winnie the Pooh". > The people I talked to are on a VPN, operating on western websites, talking to me in private. The Chinese government is not monitoring those conversations. Alright, I'll credit that. Cheers. > Having lived in the west for so long, I also studied China for quite a while. The more I study, the more I realize that the western view of CCP is... not exactly wrong, but very very problematic. Now that I agree with. Thank you for an enlightening conversation, and I really will read/watch those links (not the one with the person getting burned to death, but the other ones) FWIW.

FooBarWidget 7y ago
Cheers, glad you're open to new perspectives. A few additions: The man who got burned didn't die. He got hospitalized for a few months. He is now recovered, but with scars and trauma. Here is an interview with his wife back when he was still in coma: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3038421/wife-hong-kong-man-set-fire-after-row-vandals-tells-chinese https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3038421/wife... FYI, SCMP is based in HK, though they are partly owned by a mainland company. Still, I find that SCMP as a whole is pretty balanced. The site has a mix of pro and anti CCP articles. The sentiment varies between authors. > For me, it's useful emotionally to distinguish and blame "the Commies" because that way I can say to myself that Chinese people aren't to blame for the fucked up things the CCP does. I understand. To me, the people are to blame too. As explained in the article, CCP has 90 million members. Just the party only has more people than many EU countries. Many members are normal people: doctors, nurses, factory workers, businessmen. The CCP isn't a small elite who rules over the mainland, they are the fabric of mainland society. The madness of the cultural revolution wasn't a CCP only thing. Many people supported the madness, that's why it took off. We all own the madness. Nowadays we can see that it was wrong. I think there is nothing wrong with the normal people owning mistakes. I think it is rather crucial, in order to learn and move forward. > As an American the very idea that someone from the government would get on my case for speech is preposterous. I see what you mean. China still isn't quite on that level. But don't know whether it ever will be. But at the same time, I don't think it's fair to judge China by that standard. China has a very different history and condition. If you judge it by western standards, China will forever disappoint you, for nothing else but "it's not like the west". Here's what I think is a better perspective to judge China by: The country literally had 150 years of war, revolution and poverty. Starting 40 years ago or so, that is finally over. China was quite low on the Maslow pyramid of needs, so it's no wonder they prioritize food, safety, money, prosperity. And they succeeded in that. Everyone can eat, which was not at all a given. 200 million people lifted out of poverty -- the biggest contribution in the world. Universal Healthcare. Millions of Chinese travel to foreign countries every year, and pretty much all of them voluntarily go back. For the most part, Chinese people nowadays live a normal live. Economic freedom, the right to survival, the right to health, are human rights too. The CCP prioritizes those over freedom of speech. As a developing country, it is impossible to prioritize everything, so you have to make choices. It's also not just a case of "China is still behind the west, but they are working on it, give them a break". On some dimensions, they are ahead, or at least different. For example: Chinese cities are very safe. You can go out at night, into dark alleys, without getting mugged. The police don't carry guns, there's no need to. China managed to restore huge parts of deserts into green land. China as a state also faces threats. The censorship, which I don't like, is meant to protect against that. It's not so much criticism that they don't like (in fact there are official channels for submitting complaints), it's threats against the state. As an American that may sound weird, but recall that mainlanders are tired of 150 years of revolution. Now they want stability, unity, prosperity. And requires a stable state. The threats are not theoretical, as I've found out recently. A big threat comes from... The US. The US regularly stages coups against governments they don't like. Even democratic governments. Democratic Iran in the 60s. And just now, Venezuela. Part of the reason why the CCP top leadership is so secretive, and why they are making society more controlling, is to protect against US lead coups.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  > The threats are not theoretical, as I've found out recently. A big threat comes from... The US. The US regularly stages coups against governmentd they don't like. Even democratic governments. Democratic Iran in the 60s. And just now, Venezuela. Part of the reason why the CCP top leadership is so secretive, and why they are msking society more controlling, to to protect against US lead coups. Yeah if you wonder why the Chinese are putting Uyghurs in camps it's because the US and Saudi Arabia sent Uyghurs to fight their proxy war in Syria. You can imagine what the Chinese government thinks of that.
  - msla 7y ago
    Stop trying to justify genocide.
    - FooBarWidget 7y ago
      Is there really a genocide going on? Forced reeducation, yes. But killing? https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-...
      - msla 7y ago
        Stop trying to justify genocide.
        FooBarWidget 7y ago
        Strong claims need better evidence. The evidence is shaky, and obviously backed by political interests.

nske 7y ago

> The more I study, the more I realize that the western view of CCP is... not exactly wrong, but very very problematic What's problematic to me is that a government censors information that could change people's minds. How can we call "legitimate" a government that is not allowing those who are supposed to be the source of its legitimacy, to access opinions and ideas that could influence their choice of which party they would legitimise? Of course it would be hypocritical to say that our western governments don't try to do the same. But at least they are forced to limit the scope of their control to information that can somewhat fit under the umbrella of "National Security" -and at least their propaganda is forced to compete with everything else out there. Censoring by force books, websites and public media that express vastly opposing ideas is out of the question -as it should be -don't you agree?

FooBarWidget 7y ago
There is an alternative perspective wrt what generates legitimacy. It is improving people's livelihood. Food, health, security, education, economic prosperity. Given the huge number of low income people in China, China is still very much a developing country. And China HAS made lots of progress in those fronts, much more than any other country. As for disallowing criticism: nowadays it's not as bad as you think. Check my other threads.
- xref 7y ago
  > As for disallowing criticism: nowadays it's not as bad as you think. I don’t have to try a dozen VPNs to read western news outlets anymore?
  - FooBarWidget 7y ago
    It's not as good as the west, censorship exists. But gone are the days where your neighbors report you for every little thing you may say wrong. You can file complaints against the government, and they do look into those without punishing you. You can even file lawsuits against the government (admittedly, not very effect yet, with a success rate of 30%, but not nothing). Does China have problems? Yes, many. But my point is rather that it's not the hellhole many people think it is.
- nske 7y ago
  Why should this progress in economic development be enough to make it legitimate? I mean, even if we assumed that the end justifies the means and that all that matters is economic prosperity, they didn't even have to do a lot of things right -just less badly than before (which admittedly wasn't that hard when someone looks at how bad they were). And if this progress happened to coincide with loosening up the restrictions of personal freedoms and the censorship that you mention, perhaps the case is that a government that allowed more freedoms might had facilitated even more progress.
  - FooBarWidget 7y ago
    There is no proof that your latter claim is true. South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan were all authoritarian before they got economically prosperous. Only after that did they become democratic. The states in the middle east, which had democracy forced upon them, aren't doing that well either. It takes a while to get there, and not all stages of development of a country is a good match for democracy. And you say that it is not that hard to do things less badly than before. I disagree. The CCP is literally the first functional and competent government they've had in 150 years. I think you are massively underestimating how difficult it is to develop China. I am not saying economic concerns should forever be their number one priority. At some point that has to change. But is democracy really the best path for China right now? Do they deserve no credit for what they have already achieved?
    - nske 7y ago
      Ok, I suppose we all have our priorities and biases. I can see how being able to feed for one's family can feel more urgent than being able to exercise their freedoms. Perhaps the (late) CCP deserves credit for improving economy, infrastructure, efficiency and quality of life, to the extent that it did. And for being less cruel than its predecessors. It is just that from the perspective of westerners, it is hard to judge positively a government that still has no respect for individual freedoms and private aspects of people's lives -i.e. looking the social score system, it is a step to the wrong direction. My worry is that if the Chinese people become complacent and just feel grateful that they have more prosperity than before, the day where they are able to enjoy the freedoms that every person deserves will be far. And that, if they are not used to having free access to information and being in control, it will be more likely for someone less peaceful than the current CCP leadership in the future to start a war or something.