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They don’t. They’re stirred up by rich people through astroturf groups: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-protests-astroturf.html https://

They don’t. They’re stirred up by rich people through astroturf groups: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-protests-astroturf.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/opinion/coronavirus-prote...

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Your thesis here is that the movement is made up and nobody actually agrees with it? I guess I don't know how to rigorously disprove that, but it strikes me as unlikely as well. The easiest way to stir people up is to tell them things they already believe! It seems naive to look at even a moderate sized protest and say "oh, nobody actually believes in this cause, it's astroturfed".
- claudeganon 6y ago
  I believe that their is real discontent in the face of a deadly pandemic and massive unemployment, but also that rich people are harnessing that discontent to their own, cynical ends. These protests would not exist if we had UBI like Spain or a sane, well-managed response like Taiwan. I dunno how much history you’ve read, but the rich cynically exploiting the masses to direct their anger away from themselves and towards their enemies or other scapegoats is hardly a novel development.
  - jerf 6y ago
    UBI can't solve this problem. UBI does absolutely nothing if there's nothing to buy because nobody is working. You can't UBI your way around meat plants closing, restaurants not being staffed, stores closing, and so on. If anything, UBI encouraging more people to not work can only make it worse. The whole premise of UBI is that there's such a surplus that the only sane thing to do with it is to distribute it. There is now no surplus, and indeed credible threats of shortages. Therefore, it is only logical that the rest of the argument is now invalid. Hopefully, only temporarily.
    - claudeganon 6y ago
      I said that there wouldn’t be protests like these with UBI or a response like Taiwan’s, not that it solves the problem. Only a working vaccine or wildly effective therapeutic solves this problem. Giving people a social floor so they’re not going to be out on the street or dead while we work on those is a necessary and proven effective mitigation tactic, however.
      - jerf 6y ago
        What social floor? I don't think you are internalizing that people can't buy things that don't exist. Nobody is going to care how many "dollars" they have if they can't buy food. Nobody is going to feel safe or secure or comfortable. Nobody is going to feel safe or secure no matter how many dollars you throw at them if they visibly are doing worse. There will be protests if people can't buy food and if you try to literally throw dollars into those protest crowds you'll only enrage them more if there is no food to buy with them. You can't solve these shortages with UBI, or indeed, any amount of money. There is no "social floor" if the economy doesn't function. The whole premise of UBI is broken here. Yes. It is absolutely possible for you to go to the grocery store and for there to be nothing there. Millions of people have had this experience and you are not immune to it. The warning shots are already being fired. Take them seriously. I actually don't expect it to progress to this point, but it'll because the people who actually understand this stuff opened up even over the objections of the HN gestalt. TBH even the HN gestalt ought to be getting more shaken then it seems to be; there's been an awful lot of big layoffs in our core going on, you'd think at some point there'd be a bit more concern about indefinite lockdowns. The gestalt is acting a great deal more secure than the evidence available to it justifies. I suppose we have the way the question of what should and should not be opened up going from a scientific/public health question to a political question to thank.
        A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
        This. US has not seen empty shelves since great depression and I am not sure many Americans understand what it means to an 'average' person living here. I am going to throw in an anecdote here just to spice it up a little. A pawn store owner I am acquainted with bartered ammo for masks recently. UBI means nothing when value comes from things that people want.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I disagree. I think the protests would still exist if we had UBI like Spain - the reason Spain hasn't seen any protests is that their lockdown policies were so strict nobody could protest, and as they loosen up over the next few weeks I (falsifiably) expect to see some. If we had replicated Taiwan's results, sure, there'd be less to protest about. The rich cynically exploiting the masses is definitely a known thing. But the right response to that can't be ignoring the masses.
    - claudeganon 6y ago
      No, the right response is social democratic floors and an effectively managed response, both of which impinge on the power and wealth of the American oligarchy. That’s the obstacle. To prevent confrontation with that obstacle, the rich direct anger away from themselves into unhinged fictions and scapegoats. Again, not a new phenomena in American politics and life.
      - DuskStar 6y ago
        "the right response is to ignore the masses and follow my preferred social policies, because the only reason someone would disagree is if they've been taken in by corporate propaganda" That's the only way I can really parse your statement. What would it take for you to believe that a large fraction of people genuinely do not want the policies you support?
        claudeganon 6y ago
        The masses aren’t militia cosplayers camped outside a Baskin Robbins. They’re retail workers, nurses, bus drivers, etc for whom social democratic policies poll at comfortable majorities. And they’re writing op-eds asking not to be sacrificed for the sake of the economy. What do you think it would take for you to realize this?
        DuskStar 6y ago
        I notice a distinct lack of "construction workers", "farmers", "truck drivers" and the like in your list. Also generally regarded as "the masses", and also generally against those social democratic policies. (which you haven't named, but I'm going to assume the normal grab bag) I'm sure you could easily find some willing to write an op-ed in favor of reopening soon. You'd have a hell of a time getting it published in the NYTimes, of course.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  Not saying this company is behind this particular set of protests, but it makes a kind of general point: https://crowdsondemand.com/ https://crowdsondemand.com/
- rbanffy 6y ago
  It's not absurd to imagine a lot of people are manipulated into believing whatever the person writing the check wants. We can't pretend Cambridge Analytica never existed.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

Your thesis here is that the movement is made up and nobody actually agrees with it? I guess I don't know how to rigorously disprove that, but it strikes me as unlikely as well. The easiest way to stir people up is to tell them things they already believe! It seems naive to look at even a moderate sized protest and say "oh, nobody actually believes in this cause, it's astroturfed".

claudeganon 6y ago
I believe that their is real discontent in the face of a deadly pandemic and massive unemployment, but also that rich people are harnessing that discontent to their own, cynical ends. These protests would not exist if we had UBI like Spain or a sane, well-managed response like Taiwan. I dunno how much history you’ve read, but the rich cynically exploiting the masses to direct their anger away from themselves and towards their enemies or other scapegoats is hardly a novel development.
- jerf 6y ago
  UBI can't solve this problem. UBI does absolutely nothing if there's nothing to buy because nobody is working. You can't UBI your way around meat plants closing, restaurants not being staffed, stores closing, and so on. If anything, UBI encouraging more people to not work can only make it worse. The whole premise of UBI is that there's such a surplus that the only sane thing to do with it is to distribute it. There is now no surplus, and indeed credible threats of shortages. Therefore, it is only logical that the rest of the argument is now invalid. Hopefully, only temporarily.
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    I said that there wouldn’t be protests like these with UBI or a response like Taiwan’s, not that it solves the problem. Only a working vaccine or wildly effective therapeutic solves this problem. Giving people a social floor so they’re not going to be out on the street or dead while we work on those is a necessary and proven effective mitigation tactic, however.
    - jerf 6y ago
      What social floor? I don't think you are internalizing that people can't buy things that don't exist. Nobody is going to care how many "dollars" they have if they can't buy food. Nobody is going to feel safe or secure or comfortable. Nobody is going to feel safe or secure no matter how many dollars you throw at them if they visibly are doing worse. There will be protests if people can't buy food and if you try to literally throw dollars into those protest crowds you'll only enrage them more if there is no food to buy with them. You can't solve these shortages with UBI, or indeed, any amount of money. There is no "social floor" if the economy doesn't function. The whole premise of UBI is broken here. Yes. It is absolutely possible for you to go to the grocery store and for there to be nothing there. Millions of people have had this experience and you are not immune to it. The warning shots are already being fired. Take them seriously. I actually don't expect it to progress to this point, but it'll because the people who actually understand this stuff opened up even over the objections of the HN gestalt. TBH even the HN gestalt ought to be getting more shaken then it seems to be; there's been an awful lot of big layoffs in our core going on, you'd think at some point there'd be a bit more concern about indefinite lockdowns. The gestalt is acting a great deal more secure than the evidence available to it justifies. I suppose we have the way the question of what should and should not be opened up going from a scientific/public health question to a political question to thank.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
        This. US has not seen empty shelves since great depression and I am not sure many Americans understand what it means to an 'average' person living here. I am going to throw in an anecdote here just to spice it up a little. A pawn store owner I am acquainted with bartered ammo for masks recently. UBI means nothing when value comes from things that people want.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I disagree. I think the protests would still exist if we had UBI like Spain - the reason Spain hasn't seen any protests is that their lockdown policies were so strict nobody could protest, and as they loosen up over the next few weeks I (falsifiably) expect to see some. If we had replicated Taiwan's results, sure, there'd be less to protest about. The rich cynically exploiting the masses is definitely a known thing. But the right response to that can't be ignoring the masses.
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    No, the right response is social democratic floors and an effectively managed response, both of which impinge on the power and wealth of the American oligarchy. That’s the obstacle. To prevent confrontation with that obstacle, the rich direct anger away from themselves into unhinged fictions and scapegoats. Again, not a new phenomena in American politics and life.
    - DuskStar 6y ago
      "the right response is to ignore the masses and follow my preferred social policies, because the only reason someone would disagree is if they've been taken in by corporate propaganda" That's the only way I can really parse your statement. What would it take for you to believe that a large fraction of people genuinely do not want the policies you support?
      - claudeganon 6y ago
        The masses aren’t militia cosplayers camped outside a Baskin Robbins. They’re retail workers, nurses, bus drivers, etc for whom social democratic policies poll at comfortable majorities. And they’re writing op-eds asking not to be sacrificed for the sake of the economy. What do you think it would take for you to realize this?
        DuskStar 6y ago
        I notice a distinct lack of "construction workers", "farmers", "truck drivers" and the like in your list. Also generally regarded as "the masses", and also generally against those social democratic policies. (which you haven't named, but I'm going to assume the normal grab bag) I'm sure you could easily find some willing to write an op-ed in favor of reopening soon. You'd have a hell of a time getting it published in the NYTimes, of course.
tehjoker 6y ago
Not saying this company is behind this particular set of protests, but it makes a kind of general point: https://crowdsondemand.com/ https://crowdsondemand.com/
rbanffy 6y ago
It's not absurd to imagine a lot of people are manipulated into believing whatever the person writing the check wants. We can't pretend Cambridge Analytica never existed.