7 ms·

I don’t necessarily read it that way. Keybase is 100% functional and has worked well for a long time. Zoom needs people who know how to make modern client softw

by dcow 7y ago

I don’t necessarily read it that way. Keybase is 100% functional and has worked well for a long time. Zoom needs people who know how to make modern client software and chat if they want to compete with the Slacks and Teams, etc. You can’t even screen share on wayland... it’s that bad. If keybase ultimately gets secure video, and zoom a security architecture overhaul, how is that a bad thing?

coldpie 7y ago
Well, it's pretty clearly an aquihire. Zoom gets a team of highly skilled cryptographers and Internet protocol experts. Good for them. But that means the team that created Keybase as an innovate PKI store won't be working on that anymore. That's not Zoom's business, and probably won't be, as Keybase themselves never figured out how to turn it into a business.
- asdkhadsj 7y ago
  It bothers me that they even tried, honestly. Keybase seems like something that should be small, isolated, FOSS, supported by a foundation, etc. They could have built a business _around_ Keybase I'd imagine, but all they managed to do with this is invalidate Keybase and make people like myself, who feared their business motivations, feel vindicated for being paranoid. I'll never blame anyone for wanting to make money, to make a business, etc. But if you make a product that walks talks and acts like a FOSS project, but keep it to center your business around... I'll always be longing for a real, true FOSS replacement. In this case a good looking FOSS alternative came out a few months ago iirc. Though for the life of me I can't remember the name. edit: https://keys.pub/ https://keys.pub/ - though I will still miss KBFS
  - dcow 7y ago
    How was their product ever marketed that way? They have open source clients because that security table stakes. They’re a solution to crypto anarchy because they help link your crypto identities to your social ones. None of that has changed. You talk like all valid software is free of corporate ownership/sponsorship. Why is zoom’s money somehow worse than e.g. softbank’s.
    - asdkhadsj 7y ago
      Oh I didn't mean to imply it was, maybe my "walks talks" bit was unfair. Rather I merely meant that Keybase, like Keys.pub, seems like a great isolated tool for the internet. Something exceptionally well suited for a foundation.
  - coldpie 7y ago
    As someone who works at an open-source-focused business, I respectfully disagree. Unlike proprietary software, open source software doesn't depend on the broken window fallacy. As a result, it's really hard to make open source profitable. There's lots of different avenues to get there, and I don't like to fault someone for their efforts if the bulk of their work goes towards improving open source software, as I think Keybase did.
    - asdkhadsj 7y ago
      Possibly, but in this case I didn't expect them to make Keybase profitable, if anything I expect the opposite. I expect Keybase to be a FOSS, foundation for profitable extensions that the company builds and sells. Arguably I think they agree with me, about the extensions at least. As seen by their seemingly random directions of feature extensions that Keybase was prone to. My issue is not that they chose random features to try to make profitable, but rather that the core premise, a public keystore, was tied so closely to a for profit company. It would be like losing Git because Github went under. (Though, terrible example because Git works without a centralized repo, but it's just the first company <-> FOSS relationship that came to mind lol.)
      - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
        Maybe "losing Ubuntu if Canonical went under" is a better analogy then?
      - 411111111111111 7y ago
        It's actually a pretty good example to be honest. Keybase was a centralized key storage with value-add services such as file storage and chat. That was absolutely comparable to github, as you could've just gone back to manually syncing pubkeys and encrypting msgs. If github went away, you'd be without a lot of value-add services as well such as wiki, issues user management etc Realistically speaking, nobody is going to do that... And tbh, it was already dead in the water when they added crypto currencies... Just took a while for their money to run out. The actual difference is that there are enough competing products for github, not for keybase however, as that is just too niche
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    keys.pub doesn't have the single most useful feature Keybase has: The ability to verifiably establish a secure channel with anyone given their Twitter/Github/whatever username.
    - floatingatoll 7y ago
      Their homepage advertises 'keys pull username@github' as an example. Is the missing piece you describe here simply the command 'keys chat username@github'?
      - StavrosK 7y ago
        No, it's the cryptographic attestation so you know you are getting the right key.
        Squithrilve 7y ago
        They don't support it? That's weird (maybe a missing feature) given that it's quite easy to add to anything that has signed metadata, see e.g. this for OpenPGP: https://github.com/wiktor-k/openpgp-proofs#openpgp-proofs https://github.com/wiktor-k/openpgp-proofs#openpgp-proofs
        StavrosK 7y ago
        I'm not very familiar with the service, but AFAIK they don't. It would be great if they added it. EDIT: It looks like it might, from the front page, I will try it out to make sure. If it does, that'll be great! EDIT 2: It sort of does, but it's on a per-key basis, not an entire identity. You can publish proof on Twitter/Github/whatever, but it's only for one specific key, and it's one key per service, which means you can't only have one identity and multiple services.
- buttersbrian 7y ago
  It doesn't seem certain that they won't dogfood in addition to using the expertise internally.
- usrusr 7y ago
  The biggest challenge with acquihiring is retention. Allowing the acquired team to continue what they were doing is the only somewhat foolproof strategy to deal with it. It's a question of pocket depth and expectations. How much will the new team contribute to the "home" product? If expectations are too high chances are that much of the team won't stay and the acquisition will turn out to be a waste of money. With lower expectations however, continuing to fund the project in question can be bargain for getting a pool of in-house consultants to occasionally tap into for the "home" product, if they are really as good. And even if retention wasn't a problem at all, skilled people are not inherently skilled, they need to keep challenging themselves in their area of expertise to stay sharp. If the "home" product was failing to foster in-house expertise before then chances are high that it's a problem based on culture and priorities and experts injected from outside would quickly lose their edge. Keep them on the project they became experts on and they stay experts.
  - labster 7y ago
    Retention isn’t going to be a problem in this market. Hiring in general has almost disappeared. And if you get hospitalized with coronavirus without health insurance, it will almost certainly lead to bankruptcy. It’s too risky not to have a job right now.
    - jki275 7y ago
      I don’t think hiring has disappeared - I got contacted by four recruiters just yesterday alone asking me to apply to vacancies they’re trying to hire for. I wouldn’t quit my job (and I’m not looking anyway), but there’s plenty of hiring going on.
  - benhurmarcel 7y ago
    Relevant: https://dilbert.com/strip/2014-07-31 https://dilbert.com/strip/2014-07-31
- hinkley 7y ago
  My experiences with acquihires have not been good. People went to work for this company based on the domain, the people, or the culture. With the acquihire they change the domain first, and the culture about a year in. Then the people start to leave, and it's just a job, and one you didn't even apply for. On my worst days it felt like I was sold like cattle, and I would have seen more upside by hiring on someplace else.
plebian 7y ago
Zoom is actually one of the view applications that can screen share on Wayland I believe it's only enabled for a few distros though
- ISL 7y ago
  What does "enabled for a few distros" mean?
- RMPR 7y ago
  Does it work with the browser version?
- nvarsj 7y ago
  Zoom uses a proprietary gnome API / hack to do it I believe. It works on Gnome only. Note that with pipewire, wayland screensharing already works on Chrome/Firefox (for all of the video chat apps), and it will come to electron eventually. I imagine in a year or two screensharing on wayland will become seamless for most things.
- dcow 7y ago
  If you know how to make that work I’m all ears. I run Debian testing, wayland, gnome. I tried to screen share yesterday and got a popup about how its not supported. Maybe mu zoom client is out-of-date?
f38zf5vdt 7y ago
If Keybase acquired Zoom (haha), then, sure. This is a PR move for a public company. They'll probably gut Keybase, move their Chinese server generated AES128 keys to AES256 keys generated by you and uploaded to their Chinese server, then call it a day. I can't think of a single instance where acquisition of a smaller company like this resulted in an improved version of the original product. How many of us are running RHL? Skype is now close to Microsoft spyware that's impossible to remove from a Windows installation. Facebook purchasing Whatsapp, another service that formerly stressed encryption, resulted in things like plaintext backups of your texts on Facebook servers being aggressively promoted as soon as you loaded the app. It's pretty much always cheaper to gut the original product, ignore the problems with your software, and enjoy the enhanced price of your shares while effectively spending no more money than you had for the original acquisition. As far as I can tell, Keybase has never had a business model or constant source of revenue.
- fwn 7y ago
  > Facebook purchasing Whatsapp, another service that formerly stressed encryption, resulted in things like plaintext backups of your texts on Facebook servers being aggressively promoted as soon as you loaded the app. Ia that the case? AFAIK WhatsApp gained proper end to end encryption after being bought by Facebook and pushes for backups to Google (and maybe iCloud?) servers. Wikipedia writes: > WhatsApp was initially criticized for its lack of encryption, sending information as plaintext. Encryption was first added in May 2012. In 2016, WhatsApp was widely praised for the addition of end-to-end encryption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WhatsApp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WhatsApp
  - f38zf5vdt 7y ago
    Whatsapp announced encryption to the world in 2012. OWS helped secure their app further after the 2014 acquisition by FB, but encryption was something stressed by Koum and Acton from the get-go. Integration of E2EE into Whatsapp/FB Messaging is one of the few examples of Zuck being on the right side of things. Long term it ended up pretty good, with Koum and Acton taking their acquisition money bags and pouring them into FOSS projects like FreeBSD and the Signal Foundation. Maybe malgorithms will do the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_WhatsApp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_WhatsApp > pushes for backups to Google (and maybe iCloud?) servers. Yeah, I was incorrect. They backup to Google servers. Not sure if that's better or worse. :) Since then, FB has offered willingness to cooperate with foreign governments to break encryption. I guess we will see what happens with the EARN IT Act. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-28/facebook-whatsapp-will-have-to-share-messages-with-u-k-police https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-28/facebook-... RHL might be a bad example too, since Fedora is still pretty prominent, even if not often used compared to debian or debian-based distros these days.
pavel_lishin 7y ago
> If keybase ultimately gets secure video, and zoom a security architecture overhaul, how is that a bad thing? If.
johnchristopher 7y ago
Is wayland support even a femto blip on Zoom's radar ?
- WhyNotHugo 7y ago
  They do keep saying "multiplatform", but I guess that's Windows/macOS/iOS/Android, not Linux. They're not the only ones though, this is what most companies call "on any device".
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    Well, my personal experience running the zoom client on Ubuntu was very satisfying. It worked out of the box, just a deb to install. I am on kubuntu 18.04LTS X11 though, not wayland (which I am glad because on 16.04 I was often victim of that stupid copy/pasting bug freezing firefox or the whole gnome env.)
  - thanatropism 7y ago
    Zoom works without a hitch on Ubuntu here. Even plays nicely with the tiling WM with multiple workspaces (somehow, a thumbnail window follows you through as you flip through workspaces).
    - WhyNotHugo 7y ago
      Not even close to working properly on swaywm. Maybe you tiling WM does something special for Zoom? Screen sharing only works on Xorg, and screen scaling doesn't work (so it's super blurry on hidpi). I've never seen that thumbnail window either -- though I don complain on that item, I prefer not having something like that.
  - Saaster 7y ago
    Zoom works great on Linux, it's a proper native app and the quality is excellent. Screensharing is notoriously tricky on Wayland and has been a shifting target that is just now starting to settle, I'm sure it'll eventually work.
core-questions 7y ago
Who gives a fuck about Wayland, honestly? It seems like it was designed by people who didn't like the few good things about X and wanted something to further fracture the Linux desktop. Well, they got it. > Zoom needs people who know how to make modern client software It's the best video client available on Windows / Mac and works acceptably on Linux, what exactly needs to be more "modern" about it? Slack's video call thing is way less featureful, and Teams is still the abortion that is Lync / Skype for Business under the hood which is and always will be shit-tier. > chat I don't want my video app to be my chat app. There's any number of reasons why separation there is a good thing. I can start a Zoom call from Slack in 1 second, what more do I really need on that front?
- skykooler 7y ago
  Wayland was designed by people who didn't like the features of X that almost nobody used (X forwarding, for example). And X is still around for those obscure use cases, while Wayland can serve almost everyone with a much simpler and cleaner system. Now, why Canonical decided to go off and write Mir instead of collaborating on Wayland development, I have no idea.
  - core-questions 7y ago
    > the features of X that almost nobody used (X forwarding, for example). Plenty of people use this all the time. It's probably the single best thing about X.
- andrewaylett 7y ago
  > people who didn't like the few good things about X Since these were also pretty much the only people who were putting effort into maintaining X, I think it's reasonable that they decided to replace it instead. The history of X is a history of forks. But we've not seen another X fork appear to compete against Wayland. Instead we see the people who are writing Wayland continuing to retrofit the new technologies they're able to bring back, back to X.

by dcow 7y ago

coldpie 7y ago

Well, it's pretty clearly an aquihire. Zoom gets a team of highly skilled cryptographers and Internet protocol experts. Good for them. But that means the team that created Keybase as an innovate PKI store won't be working on that anymore. That's not Zoom's business, and probably won't be, as Keybase themselves never figured out how to turn it into a business.

asdkhadsj 7y ago
It bothers me that they even tried, honestly. Keybase seems like something that should be small, isolated, FOSS, supported by a foundation, etc. They could have built a business _around_ Keybase I'd imagine, but all they managed to do with this is invalidate Keybase and make people like myself, who feared their business motivations, feel vindicated for being paranoid. I'll never blame anyone for wanting to make money, to make a business, etc. But if you make a product that walks talks and acts like a FOSS project, but keep it to center your business around... I'll always be longing for a real, true FOSS replacement. In this case a good looking FOSS alternative came out a few months ago iirc. Though for the life of me I can't remember the name. edit: https://keys.pub/ https://keys.pub/ - though I will still miss KBFS
- dcow 7y ago
  How was their product ever marketed that way? They have open source clients because that security table stakes. They’re a solution to crypto anarchy because they help link your crypto identities to your social ones. None of that has changed. You talk like all valid software is free of corporate ownership/sponsorship. Why is zoom’s money somehow worse than e.g. softbank’s.
  - asdkhadsj 7y ago
    Oh I didn't mean to imply it was, maybe my "walks talks" bit was unfair. Rather I merely meant that Keybase, like Keys.pub, seems like a great isolated tool for the internet. Something exceptionally well suited for a foundation.
- coldpie 7y ago
  As someone who works at an open-source-focused business, I respectfully disagree. Unlike proprietary software, open source software doesn't depend on the broken window fallacy. As a result, it's really hard to make open source profitable. There's lots of different avenues to get there, and I don't like to fault someone for their efforts if the bulk of their work goes towards improving open source software, as I think Keybase did.
  - asdkhadsj 7y ago
    Possibly, but in this case I didn't expect them to make Keybase profitable, if anything I expect the opposite. I expect Keybase to be a FOSS, foundation for profitable extensions that the company builds and sells. Arguably I think they agree with me, about the extensions at least. As seen by their seemingly random directions of feature extensions that Keybase was prone to. My issue is not that they chose random features to try to make profitable, but rather that the core premise, a public keystore, was tied so closely to a for profit company. It would be like losing Git because Github went under. (Though, terrible example because Git works without a centralized repo, but it's just the first company <-> FOSS relationship that came to mind lol.)
    - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
      Maybe "losing Ubuntu if Canonical went under" is a better analogy then?
    - 411111111111111 7y ago
      It's actually a pretty good example to be honest. Keybase was a centralized key storage with value-add services such as file storage and chat. That was absolutely comparable to github, as you could've just gone back to manually syncing pubkeys and encrypting msgs. If github went away, you'd be without a lot of value-add services as well such as wiki, issues user management etc Realistically speaking, nobody is going to do that... And tbh, it was already dead in the water when they added crypto currencies... Just took a while for their money to run out. The actual difference is that there are enough competing products for github, not for keybase however, as that is just too niche
- StavrosK 7y ago
  keys.pub doesn't have the single most useful feature Keybase has: The ability to verifiably establish a secure channel with anyone given their Twitter/Github/whatever username.
  - floatingatoll 7y ago
    Their homepage advertises 'keys pull username@github' as an example. Is the missing piece you describe here simply the command 'keys chat username@github'?
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      No, it's the cryptographic attestation so you know you are getting the right key.
      - Squithrilve 7y ago
        They don't support it? That's weird (maybe a missing feature) given that it's quite easy to add to anything that has signed metadata, see e.g. this for OpenPGP: https://github.com/wiktor-k/openpgp-proofs#openpgp-proofs https://github.com/wiktor-k/openpgp-proofs#openpgp-proofs
        StavrosK 7y ago
        I'm not very familiar with the service, but AFAIK they don't. It would be great if they added it. EDIT: It looks like it might, from the front page, I will try it out to make sure. If it does, that'll be great! EDIT 2: It sort of does, but it's on a per-key basis, not an entire identity. You can publish proof on Twitter/Github/whatever, but it's only for one specific key, and it's one key per service, which means you can't only have one identity and multiple services.
buttersbrian 7y ago
It doesn't seem certain that they won't dogfood in addition to using the expertise internally.
usrusr 7y ago
The biggest challenge with acquihiring is retention. Allowing the acquired team to continue what they were doing is the only somewhat foolproof strategy to deal with it. It's a question of pocket depth and expectations. How much will the new team contribute to the "home" product? If expectations are too high chances are that much of the team won't stay and the acquisition will turn out to be a waste of money. With lower expectations however, continuing to fund the project in question can be bargain for getting a pool of in-house consultants to occasionally tap into for the "home" product, if they are really as good. And even if retention wasn't a problem at all, skilled people are not inherently skilled, they need to keep challenging themselves in their area of expertise to stay sharp. If the "home" product was failing to foster in-house expertise before then chances are high that it's a problem based on culture and priorities and experts injected from outside would quickly lose their edge. Keep them on the project they became experts on and they stay experts.
- labster 7y ago
  Retention isn’t going to be a problem in this market. Hiring in general has almost disappeared. And if you get hospitalized with coronavirus without health insurance, it will almost certainly lead to bankruptcy. It’s too risky not to have a job right now.
  - jki275 7y ago
    I don’t think hiring has disappeared - I got contacted by four recruiters just yesterday alone asking me to apply to vacancies they’re trying to hire for. I wouldn’t quit my job (and I’m not looking anyway), but there’s plenty of hiring going on.
- benhurmarcel 7y ago
  Relevant: https://dilbert.com/strip/2014-07-31 https://dilbert.com/strip/2014-07-31
hinkley 7y ago
My experiences with acquihires have not been good. People went to work for this company based on the domain, the people, or the culture. With the acquihire they change the domain first, and the culture about a year in. Then the people start to leave, and it's just a job, and one you didn't even apply for. On my worst days it felt like I was sold like cattle, and I would have seen more upside by hiring on someplace else.

plebian 7y ago

Zoom is actually one of the view applications that can screen share on Wayland I believe it's only enabled for a few distros though

ISL 7y ago
What does "enabled for a few distros" mean?
RMPR 7y ago
Does it work with the browser version?
nvarsj 7y ago
Zoom uses a proprietary gnome API / hack to do it I believe. It works on Gnome only. Note that with pipewire, wayland screensharing already works on Chrome/Firefox (for all of the video chat apps), and it will come to electron eventually. I imagine in a year or two screensharing on wayland will become seamless for most things.
dcow 7y ago
If you know how to make that work I’m all ears. I run Debian testing, wayland, gnome. I tried to screen share yesterday and got a popup about how its not supported. Maybe mu zoom client is out-of-date?

f38zf5vdt 7y ago

If Keybase acquired Zoom (haha), then, sure. This is a PR move for a public company. They'll probably gut Keybase, move their Chinese server generated AES128 keys to AES256 keys generated by you and uploaded to their Chinese server, then call it a day. I can't think of a single instance where acquisition of a smaller company like this resulted in an improved version of the original product. How many of us are running RHL? Skype is now close to Microsoft spyware that's impossible to remove from a Windows installation. Facebook purchasing Whatsapp, another service that formerly stressed encryption, resulted in things like plaintext backups of your texts on Facebook servers being aggressively promoted as soon as you loaded the app. It's pretty much always cheaper to gut the original product, ignore the problems with your software, and enjoy the enhanced price of your shares while effectively spending no more money than you had for the original acquisition. As far as I can tell, Keybase has never had a business model or constant source of revenue.

fwn 7y ago
> Facebook purchasing Whatsapp, another service that formerly stressed encryption, resulted in things like plaintext backups of your texts on Facebook servers being aggressively promoted as soon as you loaded the app. Ia that the case? AFAIK WhatsApp gained proper end to end encryption after being bought by Facebook and pushes for backups to Google (and maybe iCloud?) servers. Wikipedia writes: > WhatsApp was initially criticized for its lack of encryption, sending information as plaintext. Encryption was first added in May 2012. In 2016, WhatsApp was widely praised for the addition of end-to-end encryption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WhatsApp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WhatsApp
- f38zf5vdt 7y ago
  Whatsapp announced encryption to the world in 2012. OWS helped secure their app further after the 2014 acquisition by FB, but encryption was something stressed by Koum and Acton from the get-go. Integration of E2EE into Whatsapp/FB Messaging is one of the few examples of Zuck being on the right side of things. Long term it ended up pretty good, with Koum and Acton taking their acquisition money bags and pouring them into FOSS projects like FreeBSD and the Signal Foundation. Maybe malgorithms will do the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_WhatsApp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_WhatsApp > pushes for backups to Google (and maybe iCloud?) servers. Yeah, I was incorrect. They backup to Google servers. Not sure if that's better or worse. :) Since then, FB has offered willingness to cooperate with foreign governments to break encryption. I guess we will see what happens with the EARN IT Act. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-28/facebook-whatsapp-will-have-to-share-messages-with-u-k-police https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-28/facebook-... RHL might be a bad example too, since Fedora is still pretty prominent, even if not often used compared to debian or debian-based distros these days.

pavel_lishin 7y ago

> If keybase ultimately gets secure video, and zoom a security architecture overhaul, how is that a bad thing? If.

johnchristopher 7y ago

Is wayland support even a femto blip on Zoom's radar ?

WhyNotHugo 7y ago
They do keep saying "multiplatform", but I guess that's Windows/macOS/iOS/Android, not Linux. They're not the only ones though, this is what most companies call "on any device".
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  Well, my personal experience running the zoom client on Ubuntu was very satisfying. It worked out of the box, just a deb to install. I am on kubuntu 18.04LTS X11 though, not wayland (which I am glad because on 16.04 I was often victim of that stupid copy/pasting bug freezing firefox or the whole gnome env.)
- thanatropism 7y ago
  Zoom works without a hitch on Ubuntu here. Even plays nicely with the tiling WM with multiple workspaces (somehow, a thumbnail window follows you through as you flip through workspaces).
  - WhyNotHugo 7y ago
    Not even close to working properly on swaywm. Maybe you tiling WM does something special for Zoom? Screen sharing only works on Xorg, and screen scaling doesn't work (so it's super blurry on hidpi). I've never seen that thumbnail window either -- though I don complain on that item, I prefer not having something like that.
- Saaster 7y ago
  Zoom works great on Linux, it's a proper native app and the quality is excellent. Screensharing is notoriously tricky on Wayland and has been a shifting target that is just now starting to settle, I'm sure it'll eventually work.

core-questions 7y ago

Who gives a fuck about Wayland, honestly? It seems like it was designed by people who didn't like the few good things about X and wanted something to further fracture the Linux desktop. Well, they got it. > Zoom needs people who know how to make modern client software It's the best video client available on Windows / Mac and works acceptably on Linux, what exactly needs to be more "modern" about it? Slack's video call thing is way less featureful, and Teams is still the abortion that is Lync / Skype for Business under the hood which is and always will be shit-tier. > chat I don't want my video app to be my chat app. There's any number of reasons why separation there is a good thing. I can start a Zoom call from Slack in 1 second, what more do I really need on that front?

skykooler 7y ago
Wayland was designed by people who didn't like the features of X that almost nobody used (X forwarding, for example). And X is still around for those obscure use cases, while Wayland can serve almost everyone with a much simpler and cleaner system. Now, why Canonical decided to go off and write Mir instead of collaborating on Wayland development, I have no idea.
- core-questions 7y ago
  > the features of X that almost nobody used (X forwarding, for example). Plenty of people use this all the time. It's probably the single best thing about X.
andrewaylett 7y ago
> people who didn't like the few good things about X Since these were also pretty much the only people who were putting effort into maintaining X, I think it's reasonable that they decided to replace it instead. The history of X is a history of forks. But we've not seen another X fork appear to compete against Wayland. Instead we see the people who are writing Wayland continuing to retrofit the new technologies they're able to bring back, back to X.