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Can anyone explain what happened to battery swapping. A few years ago there was this Tesla show where they swapped three cars in the time it took to refuel a no

by patall 6y ago

Can anyone explain what happened to battery swapping. A few years ago there was this Tesla show where they swapped three cars in the time it took to refuel a normal ICE automotive. But after that nothing happened. I know it is difficult to handle when you do not own the battery but I would guess 90% of private long distance trips are return trips, so you could swap batteries at your trusted former gas station every 200 miles and then on the way back home do the same and get your old battery back at your last stop and keep that pack for all your short day to day trips. But somehow, this idea seems to be 100% abandoned. Edit: Follow up conspiracy: Could it actually be because the battery is the one component of an EV that degrades the fastest and thus cars would last much longer (and no manufacturer would want that) if you could just swap the main battery every 100.000 miles or so?

ravenstine 6y ago
That's because it's not "cool". We wanted our flying cars, so if we aren't getting those, we at least want our cars to do wild and unbelievable things like flock together and fuel each other like jet planes. Who's going to invest in battery swapping technology? It's effectively a solved problem and not exciting.
matz1 6y ago
Probably the same reason why smartphone battery is not swappable. For various reason we don't have swappable smartphone battery even though it is technically much easier problem to solve.
- ravenstine 6y ago
  What reason would that be? I always assumed that was because of the pursuit of slimmer phones and to discourage repair.
  - Retric 6y ago
    It’s also a more complex and expensive. Swapping cellphone batteries means you need to own another battery which few people did once capacity increased. With cellphones people that want a swappable battery can just get an external battery pack but most people can simply recharge daily.
    - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
      Hmmm... is this not also an option with an electric car? A "long distance" battery pack trailer of some sort? Lose some sleekness, but gain a ton in utility, and storage space for those long trips.
    - ravenstine 6y ago
      > Swapping cellphone batteries means you need to own another battery which few people did once capacity increased. That doesn't make sense to me. Sure, maybe you can't get an OEM battery, but I've owned cell phones in the last 5 years that I easily swapped out the old battery with an aftermarket battery for about $12. I think people have the ability to buy batteries. > With cellphones people that want a swappable battery can just get an external battery pack but most people can simply recharge daily. My OG Pixel phone is on its last legs in terms of battery capacity, which means it will probably get scrapped(even if I trade it in somehow or get it "recycled"). I would have swapped the battery with a new one, but I don't have that option. At least without risking damaging the phone on disassembly. Recharging daily isn't a solution because it runs out of power in about 5 hours without even using it.
      - Retric 6y ago
        Have you considered a battery case like: “Google Pixel 2 Battery Case, 4700mAh“ https://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable-External-Protective-Portable-Compatible/dp/B07F83N175/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?dchild=1&keywords=OG+Pixel+External+battery+case&qid=1588784511&sr=8-1-fkmr1 https://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable-External-Protective-Port... From reviews that product is likely terrible, but I know people that are happy with their iPhone battery cases.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      In theory we should be able to have external battery packs for electric cars, but I think the power density would have to about double before that happens. How many miles can you fit in a 30 lbs battery right now? Not very many. I think that gets you about 10 miles in a Tesla. If it got you 20 miles it might be worth building a few slots into the trunk for extended range.
  - Arnt 6y ago
    Discouraging isn't something that affects next quarter's earnings. Reducing the cost of water-related repairs, warranty replacements etc., though.
  - matz1 6y ago
    even those two reason still make sense for car.
- jaclaz 6y ago
  It depends on the smartphone, there are still (very few) around that have one. Beside the possible "planned obsolescence", I believe that the change was mostly because of waterproof or almost waterproof design, and (IMHO senseless) "let's make it thinner".
yingw787 6y ago
Immediate concern for me would be safety. My impression is the battery pack provides a lot of the rigidity necessary to keep the car in one piece, and swapping the battery out introduces new hazards. There's also the concern about liability, whether the battery pack you're getting is as good as the one you're trading in (what if it's older and has a lower overall capacity), and how that might impact resale value. Third would be logistics, keeping the flow of batteries through the stations and having enough batteries on hand to swap on demand, and keeping compatibility with different makes and models, is a challenge.
- patall 6y ago
  That's why you would only use those for long distance trips and for everything else you would own that one old pack. Rigidity could indeed be a problem but so has been gasoline safety. There would need to be standards but there are also standards for charging plugs so, it is not like this never happened before.
  - ianai 6y ago
    Or have a built in battery and battery swap bay. Both can happen and no reason not do have both.
leetcrew 6y ago
unless manufacturers implement some sort of standardized battery pack, it seems like this would be a logistical headache. simple enough to store and charge your original battery for when you return, but how do they have the correct battery for you to pick up on the outgoing leg? is the "gas" station supposed to keep a stock of charged batteries for every type of EV?
jdofaz 6y ago
Increased capacity and high speed charging have made it not worth the cost/complexity. I've read the Rivian truck can have an additional battery dropped in the truck bed but I don't think it is something you can buy yet.
- thrill 6y ago
  Correct-ish. Rivian has a patent for such an ability, but no announcement even of planned availability. Continued battery improvements pretty much obviate any more complicated range extending efforts, IMO, other than perhaps road embedded magnetic chargers, which are fairly simple.
NickM 6y ago
It was abandoned because fast charging stations keep improving, and are much simpler and cheaper to operate than battery swap stations. It's already at the point where you can take a 400-500 mile road trip in a Model 3 with maybe a single twenty minute charging stop, which is just not that much extra time, and most people like to take a short break every few hours anyway. I suspect Tesla knew this would probably happen, but IIRC there was a rule for a while with the California ZEV credit program where manufacturers qualified for extra credits if a vehicle could be "refueled" in under five minutes. Tesla set up a single swapping station to prove it could be done and therefore qualify for the extra credits, but it was always kind of inconvenient and expensive and very few people actually used it.
- patall 6y ago
  I see, that actually makes sense. To bad most affordable cars actually operate in much lower ranges.
- amirhirsch 6y ago
  A car with a 40 mile range would be cheaper to buy, and a lot lighter so also more efficient. You could swap in a 400 mile battery when you actually need it.
  - mgr86 6y ago
    The problem I have with the 40 mile range is that is highly dependent on 1. temperature. Extreme cold lowers range 2. topography. Inclines can drain a battery quickly. Declines can add range. 3. driving style. Do you have a lead foot? 4. Driving type. Are you on a highway?
    - amirhirsch 6y ago
      You're nitpicking here. 60 mile range. 100 mile range. Whatever customer needs daily is far different from their outlier use cases. Most people with home/work charging never go below 40 miles from full.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dumbfounder 6y ago
I am imagining a scenario where an autonomous vehicle zooms toward the car at high speed and then from underneath the car swaps out the batteries then zooms away.
ztakeo 6y ago
Well if you want to see one way the battery swapping model can fail work, check out the book Totaled, which is about the Israeli EV startup Better Place that tried battery swapping before Tesla was a thing. Granted there were a lot of complicating factors that may not apply in the Tesla case (securing battery swapping locations in Israel came with specific challenges), but it may provide some insight.
m463 6y ago
Nobody who actually owns a car wanted to swap batteries. There are many reasons: ownership of the battery, logistics of the swap and swap back, required payment for convenience, need to stop anyway, range of vehicle, etc.

by patall 6y ago

ravenstine 6y ago

That's because it's not "cool". We wanted our flying cars, so if we aren't getting those, we at least want our cars to do wild and unbelievable things like flock together and fuel each other like jet planes. Who's going to invest in battery swapping technology? It's effectively a solved problem and not exciting.

matz1 6y ago

Probably the same reason why smartphone battery is not swappable. For various reason we don't have swappable smartphone battery even though it is technically much easier problem to solve.

ravenstine 6y ago
What reason would that be? I always assumed that was because of the pursuit of slimmer phones and to discourage repair.
- Retric 6y ago
  It’s also a more complex and expensive. Swapping cellphone batteries means you need to own another battery which few people did once capacity increased. With cellphones people that want a swappable battery can just get an external battery pack but most people can simply recharge daily.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    Hmmm... is this not also an option with an electric car? A "long distance" battery pack trailer of some sort? Lose some sleekness, but gain a ton in utility, and storage space for those long trips.
  - ravenstine 6y ago
    > Swapping cellphone batteries means you need to own another battery which few people did once capacity increased. That doesn't make sense to me. Sure, maybe you can't get an OEM battery, but I've owned cell phones in the last 5 years that I easily swapped out the old battery with an aftermarket battery for about $12. I think people have the ability to buy batteries. > With cellphones people that want a swappable battery can just get an external battery pack but most people can simply recharge daily. My OG Pixel phone is on its last legs in terms of battery capacity, which means it will probably get scrapped(even if I trade it in somehow or get it "recycled"). I would have swapped the battery with a new one, but I don't have that option. At least without risking damaging the phone on disassembly. Recharging daily isn't a solution because it runs out of power in about 5 hours without even using it.
    - Retric 6y ago
      Have you considered a battery case like: “Google Pixel 2 Battery Case, 4700mAh“ https://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable-External-Protective-Portable-Compatible/dp/B07F83N175/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?dchild=1&keywords=OG+Pixel+External+battery+case&qid=1588784511&sr=8-1-fkmr1 https://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable-External-Protective-Port... From reviews that product is likely terrible, but I know people that are happy with their iPhone battery cases.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    In theory we should be able to have external battery packs for electric cars, but I think the power density would have to about double before that happens. How many miles can you fit in a 30 lbs battery right now? Not very many. I think that gets you about 10 miles in a Tesla. If it got you 20 miles it might be worth building a few slots into the trunk for extended range.
- Arnt 6y ago
  Discouraging isn't something that affects next quarter's earnings. Reducing the cost of water-related repairs, warranty replacements etc., though.
- matz1 6y ago
  even those two reason still make sense for car.
jaclaz 6y ago
It depends on the smartphone, there are still (very few) around that have one. Beside the possible "planned obsolescence", I believe that the change was mostly because of waterproof or almost waterproof design, and (IMHO senseless) "let's make it thinner".

yingw787 6y ago

Immediate concern for me would be safety. My impression is the battery pack provides a lot of the rigidity necessary to keep the car in one piece, and swapping the battery out introduces new hazards. There's also the concern about liability, whether the battery pack you're getting is as good as the one you're trading in (what if it's older and has a lower overall capacity), and how that might impact resale value. Third would be logistics, keeping the flow of batteries through the stations and having enough batteries on hand to swap on demand, and keeping compatibility with different makes and models, is a challenge.

patall 6y ago
That's why you would only use those for long distance trips and for everything else you would own that one old pack. Rigidity could indeed be a problem but so has been gasoline safety. There would need to be standards but there are also standards for charging plugs so, it is not like this never happened before.
- ianai 6y ago
  Or have a built in battery and battery swap bay. Both can happen and no reason not do have both.

leetcrew 6y ago

unless manufacturers implement some sort of standardized battery pack, it seems like this would be a logistical headache. simple enough to store and charge your original battery for when you return, but how do they have the correct battery for you to pick up on the outgoing leg? is the "gas" station supposed to keep a stock of charged batteries for every type of EV?

jdofaz 6y ago

Increased capacity and high speed charging have made it not worth the cost/complexity. I've read the Rivian truck can have an additional battery dropped in the truck bed but I don't think it is something you can buy yet.

thrill 6y ago
Correct-ish. Rivian has a patent for such an ability, but no announcement even of planned availability. Continued battery improvements pretty much obviate any more complicated range extending efforts, IMO, other than perhaps road embedded magnetic chargers, which are fairly simple.

NickM 6y ago

It was abandoned because fast charging stations keep improving, and are much simpler and cheaper to operate than battery swap stations. It's already at the point where you can take a 400-500 mile road trip in a Model 3 with maybe a single twenty minute charging stop, which is just not that much extra time, and most people like to take a short break every few hours anyway. I suspect Tesla knew this would probably happen, but IIRC there was a rule for a while with the California ZEV credit program where manufacturers qualified for extra credits if a vehicle could be "refueled" in under five minutes. Tesla set up a single swapping station to prove it could be done and therefore qualify for the extra credits, but it was always kind of inconvenient and expensive and very few people actually used it.

patall 6y ago
I see, that actually makes sense. To bad most affordable cars actually operate in much lower ranges.
amirhirsch 6y ago
A car with a 40 mile range would be cheaper to buy, and a lot lighter so also more efficient. You could swap in a 400 mile battery when you actually need it.
- mgr86 6y ago
  The problem I have with the 40 mile range is that is highly dependent on 1. temperature. Extreme cold lowers range 2. topography. Inclines can drain a battery quickly. Declines can add range. 3. driving style. Do you have a lead foot? 4. Driving type. Are you on a highway?
  - amirhirsch 6y ago
    You're nitpicking here. 60 mile range. 100 mile range. Whatever customer needs daily is far different from their outlier use cases. Most people with home/work charging never go below 40 miles from full.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dumbfounder 6y ago

I am imagining a scenario where an autonomous vehicle zooms toward the car at high speed and then from underneath the car swaps out the batteries then zooms away.

ztakeo 6y ago

Well if you want to see one way the battery swapping model can fail work, check out the book Totaled, which is about the Israeli EV startup Better Place that tried battery swapping before Tesla was a thing. Granted there were a lot of complicating factors that may not apply in the Tesla case (securing battery swapping locations in Israel came with specific challenges), but it may provide some insight.

m463 6y ago

Nobody who actually owns a car wanted to swap batteries. There are many reasons: ownership of the battery, logistics of the swap and swap back, required payment for convenience, need to stop anyway, range of vehicle, etc.