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I was tricked into thinking I had “grit”

ketzo 6y ago
Man, this is probably my single greatest struggle as, like, a human in the world. I know I have the capability to try hard. I’ve done some neat stuff when I try hard. And yet, sometimes, I don’t. Even in areas, and on things, that matter a lot to me. And that makes it tough to look at myself every once in a while. I hope I get better at trying hard. Or maybe just understanding when I’m gonna try hard.
- amenod 6y ago
  I think you misunderstood (and my experience alignes with OPs). It is not about trying hard. It is not about working long hours, giving your best, persevering... it is about finding things you enjoy doing, context in which you shine, people who appreciate you. When a person is given a chance, they will try hard - not because they should, but because they enjoy it. It doesn't always work and sometimes you need to just push through. But mostly, I can't imagine working hard at something I don't find joy in.
- josiahtullis 6y ago
  Have you ever been tested for ADD?
viburnum 6y ago
The grit discourse is mostly about attributing poverty to individuals, rather than as an effect of the system as a whole.
- hackissimo123 6y ago
  Could poverty not be an effect of both?
  - viburnum 6y ago
    “Grit” is just about which people get sorted into he poverty bin, not how big the poverty bin is.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
    The hardest-working person on earth will probably die poor. You're right - there are a ton of factors that contribute to poverty, but grittiness (or lack thereof) is probably overvalued among the already-successful.
deleted 6y ago
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hyperpallium 6y ago
> isn’t because of grit, ... It’s because I enjoy doing them "Enjoying doing" is a gift, like a talent. Considering division of labour in a society, maybe each should use their gifts? An exception is needs, as in the article: diet, exercise, sleep ... but also things you need to do in order to get to the things you enjoy doing... Having both "I enjoy programming" and "12. Programming" may be an example of that.
irjustin 6y ago
I disagree with the author's premise that you have "grit" only when it can be applied in any direction. To me, "grit" requires adversity instead of simply overall breadth. It's quite easy for us humans to do something if everything is going well. What about when it's not going well? Do we have enough to persevere through all times, including hard ones? Your startup is failing? Your research is yielding no fruit? You can't get that promotion even though you've tried 3 times in 3 years? Pushing through adversity and continuing the grind in the face of simply giving up is better defined as "having grit". The problem simply is, maybe it is all just a waste? But that's not having grit! Under the author's premise, you should be trying 1000% at all areas of your life all the time. Unrealistic.
- secondbreakfast 6y ago
  I agree with you that grit means pushing through adversity. Specifically in my life, I've pushed through adversity when I cared more about trying than I did about the outcome. It's hard to quantify, but I've only recently enjoyed running. For years, I tried to run consistently and always gave up. Then, I moved to Sun Valley for a ski season. As the snow melted, I started running outside each morning. I looked forward to the cold air, the quiet mountains, the snow-capped scenery. Nothing changed in how I understood the importance of exercise. I just enjoyed getting outside more. Reflecting on areas where I've been told I "showed grit," they've really been areas where I naturally was interested - regardless of the outcome.
- talliedthoughts 6y ago
  That definition would push people into local maximums, always continuing the grind towards the initial goal instead of stepping back and reassessing if the goal still makes sense. There has to be a balance between these actions.
  - cloverich 6y ago
    Persevering through adversity doesn't mean ignore opportunity. It means when the most obvious desirable outcome is blocked by challenges hard or unforeseen, don't simply give up. It applies in many situations but its not a panacea.
ardit33 6y ago
It is impossible to be really good at everything.... when I optimized for work, my fitness goals went through the window. When I optimized to get a project done, my reading (books) went down as well. When I optimized for fitness (working out and soccer), my work and side projects started progressing slower. It is very hard to work on your project at home, when you are in a intense bulking, or 'cutting' phase, and once you come home form the gym you just want to chill.... When I say 'optimize for', I mean that particular facet of your life becomes the more important one, and you spend more energy. Often you have to make choices: eg. social life, or project you are working on? The only key I found is to be good/focus your energy in one area at a time, while just being happy with being 'good enough' at other areas. Once you reach a desired in one area, you can switch your focus to other ones. *eg: once you reached a desirable physical shape, you can switch to 'maintain mode', and focus your energies to something new (e.g. learning a new tech, or starting a project). As gym rats say: 'Maintaining' is always easier than "Gaining, or Cutting". It is just physically impossible to optimize on everything in your life, no matter how ambitious you are, or how much 'grit' you have. (eg. you can't start a ambitious project, while having a great social life, and bulking up in the gym, while playing soccer regularly multiple times a week, and having a full time job, at the same time).
- jimbob45 6y ago
  It's not impossible...but it requires strict time management and everyone else in your life will try to steal your earmarked time and complain that you never want to do anything. Even then, I agree - I'm constantly accidentally over prioritizing and having to even back out.
  - llamataboot 6y ago
    I find it's much better to always do whatever I want to do, and if I find out I'm not doing what I want to be doing even if I'm doing whatever I want to do, inquire into what sort of crazy thing led me to believe I wanted to do X while I was doing Y because I wanted to do Y. Conscious hedonism is the only way to live, but you better be willing to be conscious, cause doing what you "want" sucks until you get good at it.
  - 6y ago
gnramires 6y ago
It is important to learn when to give up too. I guess this isn't talked about as much. Give up what you dislike or don't have real potential in favor of what you love etc. There are countless good examples of course; off the top of my head: - Darwin neglected his medical studies, to a point his father sent him elsewhere to become a parson (priest). All while pursuing his interests, and slacking off occasionally. "Darwin spent the summer of 1825 as an apprentice doctor, helping his father treat the poor of Shropshire, before going to the University of Edinburgh Medical School (at the time the best medical school in the UK) with his brother Erasmus in October 1825. Darwin found lectures dull and surgery distressing, so he neglected his studies. He learned taxidermy in around 40 daily hour-long sessions from John Edmonstone, a freed black slave who had accompanied Charles Waterton in the South American rainforest." "Darwin's neglect of medical studies annoyed his father, who shrewdly sent him to Christ's College, Cambridge, to study for a Bachelor of Arts degree as the first step towards becoming an Anglican country parson. As Darwin was unqualified for the Tripos, he joined the ordinary degree course in January 1828. He preferred riding and shooting to studying. His cousin William Darwin Fox introduced him to the popular craze for beetle collecting; Darwin pursued this zealously, getting some of his finds published in James Francis Stephens' Illustrations of British entomology. He became a close friend and follower of botany professor John Stevens Henslow and met other leading parson-naturalists who saw scientific work as religious natural theology, becoming known to these dons as "the man who walks with Henslow". When his own exams drew near, Darwin applied himself to his studies and was delighted by the language and logic of William Paley's Evidences of Christianity (1794). In his final examination in January 1831 Darwin did well, coming tenth out of 178 candidates for the ordinary degree." - On technology there are too many to count I guess? Bill Gates halted his undergrad at prestigious Hardvard. Or Elon Musk "In 1995, Musk commenced a PhD in energy physics/materials science at Stanford University in California. Eager to pursue opportunities in the Internet boom, however, he dropped out after just two days to launch his first company, Zip2 Corporation." Perhaps you could redefine Grit as ability to endure pain or keep motivation when you have worthwhile goals in mind (if you want to just adapt the word). Perhaps courage is a better word. To give up when you need or push through when you need.
- hackissimo123 6y ago
  Interestingly, the book cited in the link (Range by Epstein) talks about "grit" but it also talks about this same point - successful individuals are (generally) not only those who have grit but those who are good at knowing when it's worth persisting with grit and when it's better to give up.
pfortuny 6y ago
Man: go read Aristotle’s ethics and learn what the real good life is. “Grit”... Prudence, justice, temperance, fortitude. You need them all to lead a full life.
watwut 6y ago
> When I was a college runner, I had teammates whose drive and determination seemed almost boundless on the track, and nearly absent in the classroom, and vice versa. Instead of asking whether someone is gritty, we should ask when they are. This makes sense to me. On the personal level too. The trick is not to push harder, but to figure out how to make it so that you want to do it.
implicator 6y ago
There is a price for high performance. Read the road signs.
kstenerud 6y ago
Boxer (Animal Farm) had grit. Whenever things got tough, he'd say "I will work harder!" After his death, his saying became a mantra and model for other good citizens to follow.
- secondbreakfast 6y ago
  I revisited Animal Farm a few months ago. There are more and more mornings now where I'm reading the news, thinking about our world, and reminded of the animals on that farm.
  - projektfu 6y ago
    Definitely, the people who think we’ve defeated the human issues in those books are horribly misguided. Stalinism is sufficient but not necessary to have Animal Farm.
- Tade0 6y ago
  I worked for a few companies whose mode of operation was exactly that. This works so long as there's a steady supply of young, talented people but falls flat on its face when the company tries to scale up its business.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - kansface 6y ago
    Spoiler alert: The horse doesn't die, its turned into glue after being sent to a "vet" having collapsing from exhaustion.
    - Tade0 6y ago
      I remember, that's why I dodged that bullet by quitting.
HanP77 6y ago
Range is a very interesting book. Has a generalist I felt inadequate for a long time when I was younger (the pressure being find a domain and stick with it). I wish I had read something like this 10 years ago.
jzer0cool 6y ago
Grit = Just Do It (Nike Slogan). My easy definition: while(person_has_grit) { if(pivot) continue; if(give_up) break; } person_has_grit = false;
- sillysaurusx 6y ago
  Grit is overrated. Determination is what matters. Grit implies you'd grind yourself down at a task you know probably won't go well for you, just because you'd never give up, even when you get zero enjoyment or satisfaction out of it.
  - deathgrips 6y ago
    You'd be hard pressed to find a rewarding skill where you don't absolutely suck for at least a year when you start practicing it. If you pick up something and you don't fail immediately and often, it's probably trivial.
  - friendlybus 6y ago
    Grit is finding the smallest gains and consistently hitting them in a difficult situation. It burns time to hold space. It works best when you need to hold something at nearly any cost. Its rare morale holds that long without a strong structure backing it up.
  - jzer0cool 6y ago
    I agree it is overrated. Was just defining grit. I think it matters to have a combination of traits, whether it be grit + determination + .... For fun, my coded solution for determination: while(!found()) continue;
jhbadger 6y ago
I thought this was going to be about getting tricked to sell subscriptions to "Grit". There used to be comic book ads from the 1950s to the 1980s that got kids to go door to door to sell subscriptions to a newspaper/magazine called "Grit". Supposedly, if you sold a lot of subscriptions you could get a free bike or a stereo or something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grit_(newspaper) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grit_(newspaper)
_hao 6y ago
I can see where the author is coming from and I think most of us have made sacrifices when it comes to things we wanted to learn or achieve. Time is never enough, social obligations pull you further etc. There are many reasons for that. I think people should choose wisely where they want to spend their time. The quote "Life's barely long enough to get good at one thing. So be careful what you get good at" by one True Detective is very poignant. That's why I prioritize when I need and I say "when" because the constant fight to prioritize for time is also time consuming and energy draining. If I'm reading an interesting book, I'll prioritize finishing it and I'll work less on my projects, but I'll leave enough time in the day for exercise (which is something very important to me) and work on them. That's on top of having a full time job and a partner. If you make yourself a routine based on certain slots you can use, no matter for what (top priority at the time) things move and happen! Projects get finished! Books get read! Exercise is done and you feel good and aching. We're not just machines despite how prevalent that sentiment is. We change all the time and life is change itself - constant movement. You either go with the flow and make your decisions based on the circumstances or you stop and die (mentally, psychologically). Continuing when you're hit with adversity is what "grit" is. If you really want to do it, you'll find a way to do it. But you have to make it easier for yourself and that is a constant fight!
fs111 6y ago
It is not important to work hard, it is important to be happy. Stop glorifying the act of working, please.
- secondbreakfast 6y ago
  Do you think the two are causally related? (Either positively correlated or negatively correlated?)
  - fs111 6y ago
    They may or may not. Many people are happy when spending time with loved ones. You can live a happy life and never work "hard". Just do your job and be happy. There is nothing wrong with tbat.
  - JackFr 6y ago
    Some people are lucky enough to find meaning in their work. That is a luxury. Many people need to work to live and will happily find meaning in other facets of their lives. But people shouldn’t believe that work is the only sort meaningful activity in life.
- beaconstudios 6y ago
  you can work hard at a hobby, or fitness, or many other areas that aren't commercial.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Happiness may be your ultimate goal (or did you pick it up from pop culture and movies?), and it's far from universal across people, cultures and eras (unless you define happiness in an extremely general, tautological sense of whatever one strives for). For many people it is attaining meaning, being and being seen as competent and useful, it is obtaining power or sacrificing oneself for an idea or their family. If you say that's all forms of happiness, then again that definition is pretty empty then.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  Working hard makes me happy.
epigramx 6y ago
> I am smart
doublesCs 6y ago
I have learned the same thing about myself: I am (relatively) successful not because my grit allowed me to keep doing something which I disliked but were rewarded, but because the things I enjoy doing are things which are valued by our society. I realized this after reading the following Warren Buffet quote[1]: "I happen to have a talent for allocating capital. But my ability to use that talent is completely dependent on the society I was born into. If I’d been born into a tribe of hunters, this talent of mine would be pretty worthless. I can’t run very fast. I’m not particularly strong. I’d probably end up as some wild animal’s dinner. But I was lucky enough to be born in a time and place where society values my talent, and gave me a good education to develop that talent, and set up the laws and the financial system to let me do what I love doing — and make a lot of money doing it. The least I can do is help pay for all that." [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett
- oska 6y ago
  Somehow I think Buffett would have ended up a parasite in any society. There's always been a niche for the Buffett type.
  - wegs 6y ago
    Why do you think he's a parasite? He seems to live a modest life, and work very hard to make the economy work more efficiently. He's giving almost all of his money to philanthropic causes, and seems to campaign for all the right causes. He maintains a pretty low profile for his level of success (he doesn't even support philanthropy through his own family foundation; he went with Gates, since he thought they'd do a better job). I think he's had about $10 million in frivolous spending in his life (a plane, and a home in California). I agree most people in the financial sector seem to be parasites, but Warren doesn't seem that way.
    - oska 6y ago
      I think his claim to be a beneficial 'allocator of capital' is bogus. He tends to invest in established exploitative companies. His investments have been made on an almost exclusive basis of growing wealth, which in the end is a very sterile end to aim for. > I'll tell you why I like the cigarette business. It costs a penny to make. Sell it for a dollar. It's addictive. And there's fantastic brand loyalty. — Buffett, quoted in Barbarians at the Gate: The Fall of RJR Nabisco I agree he's led a modest life. I am somewhat dubious about his claims to be a philanthropist. I don't see exploiting the world (Buffett & Gates) necessarily redeemed by later posing as a philanthropist. None of this is meant as a critique of capitalism. Just a critique of the kind of sterile, exploitative capitalism that Buffett practises, that he then tries to dress up as philanthropy. "It's ok if I give away all my money at the end" - well he can't take it with him can he? And at 89, he still hasn't given most of it away anyway. Finally, here's a link to a much more detailed criticism of Buffett, if you're interested: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/special-investigation-the-dirty-secret-behind-warren-buffetts-billions/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/special-investigat...
friendlybus 6y ago
I dont get this article. Is he blaming the school for complimenting displayed characteristics? Does he think an element of character is a superpowered attribute that works everywhere like a videogame? Take the complement and move on, your character is not the same as fixed biological attributes or abilities. You weren't "tricked".
- secondbreakfast 6y ago
  I recently realized in the past I’ve had an inflated self-perception of myself specifically around work ethic and “grit.” But I conveniently ignored areas where I have failed to put in the work and push through. It may be okay to not have “grit.” I no longer believe I have any more or less grit than the average person. I’m not sure what this realization necessarily means nor do I fault anyone else for this. It just is what it is!
  - friendlybus 6y ago
    I don't know what to say, it depends on what those "ignored areas" are. We have a primary goal and prioritize for it, not getting all the way on your second and third priorities isn't exactly uncommon. Do you "have" grit or do you display it? It's part of character we choose how much energy to put in.
- michaelt 6y ago
  I think he's talking about his own evaluation of himself (based on what people told him) and how that caused him to deploy his own resources. People who tell me I'm strong are complimenting me, but if I end up thinking I can carry a big ol' sofa up the stairs all by myself, I'm going to have a bad time :)
creativenolo 6y ago
It's a pleasure to read with hanging punctuation on a screen.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
rmason 6y ago
Every successful startup has a half dozen times it's on the verge of failure. Any reasonable person would say it's over. But those with grit refuse to give in and find a way. But I've also known founders who repeatedly fail, constantly survive crises. They lose their house, get divorced and still soldier on refusing to give up. Both entrepreneurs have grit, but only the first one is successful. Grit is vital to winning but it's not the only thing you need.
karol 6y ago
When I worked for a pensions company they sat me next to the CEO. He was a pleasant man most of the time, who could sometimes show a touch of arrogance towards his PA. I saw him mostly work at a slide deck all week and reading a book called Grit. Later I noticed he put a few sentences from the book into his deck. "We don't go home when we are tired, we go home when we are done" stuck in my head. After a few years of my own struggles at being consistently productive my conclusion is grit is an emergent behaviour you cannot optimise for. You most probably want to use different words such as 'consistency' (this one works for me). I see grit as something opposite of health and balance. A short-term display of stamina that might trigger unwanted consequences in other areas of life.
- OakNinja 6y ago
  Like a friend of mine who collapsed after, comparably, running a marathon when he had not fully recovered from the flu/covid-19 or something similar. He’s OK now though. He never bails out unless unconscious. He’s one of the most reliable persons I’ve ever known, and he has gotten where he wants to in life so it’s not necessarily bad.
  - badpun 6y ago
    Friend's father was like that (and a very successful man). He died at 52 from a heart attack while running...
bl4ckm0r3 6y ago
Just a comment, that i don't want to sound as a critique or a judgement of any kind...there's is a great value in re-evaluating and without this step the "grit" becomes easily stubbornness...BUT it's also very important not to use the "re-evaluation" to mask or hide 1) lack of clear objectives (why am I doing this thing that i don't particularly enjoy) 2) laziness (it's sooooooo easy to fall into the "i'll do it tomorrow" mentality). But honestly having a clear objective and a reasoning behind achieving it that we believe in and you get all the grit you need to achieve it! The gym is the classic example, most people sign up but they aren't too convinced about it...why are you there?where are you trying to get?will this reasoning motivate you after the initial "this is not bad" or "hey I am improving quickly" phase? ps disclaimer I don't go to the gym (but I do other sports)
Gravityloss 6y ago
They might not be a gritty writer. But they are a good writer.
- elongatedMusku 6y ago
  *They?
- secondbreakfast 6y ago
  thank you! made my day
sradman 6y ago
> The reason I’ve stuck with the things I have isn’t because of grit, as I might have once believed. It’s because I enjoy doing them. “Enjoyment” is only one way of achieving the focus required to succeed. Frustration and ego (e.g. proving yourself) are just as common and useful. The trick is priority ranking what we focus on given our comparative advantage and the opportunity for improvement. What drives our relative ranking algorithm differs between people in any given situation. Grit is the ability to overcome what Paul Graham calls “schlep blindness”. Grit applied to low impact problems is what the cool kids call “bike shedding “.
renewiltord 6y ago
Relatedly, Paul Graham on Obsession http://paulgraham.com/genius.html http://paulgraham.com/genius.html
mcv 6y ago
I lack grit in exactly the same way. I love working on things I'm passionate about, I'm fortunate that programming is one of them (or more accurately: some aspects of programming), but there are plenty of things on which I struggle to motivate myself to do them. I tend to call it discipline or willpower rather than 'grit', but I guess it's the same thing. I did notice that my wife and I have and lack this willpower in exactly opposite ways. I'm good at doing the right thing when it involves not doing something, like avoiding unhealthy food, or staying at home (which is suddenly very relevant). She has better willpower when it comes to doing things, like handling taxes and other paperwork on time.
- shoes_for_thee 6y ago
  Yeah, I think most of the conversation here would be more clear if we simply traded the somewhat-ambiguous "grit" for the better-defined "discipline" and "willpower".
davidhyde 6y ago
I was tricked into reading that. Clever title, well done!
k__ 6y ago
As far as I know, "grit" is the only thing really needed for success. That and luck. And grit will even out the odds for your.
millhouse_ams 6y ago
Grit is just a marketable term for what has been know for a long time as conscientiousness, one of the five main personality traits in psychology
kotrunga 6y ago
"Instead of asking whether someone is gritty, we should ask when they are."
motohagiography 6y ago
The concept the OP may be looking for is Aristotle's Techne. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techne In the things you do in your life, you are either a spectator or a participant, and if you are just a critic of something, you are a spectator. Really good seats don't make you a participant either. Physical competence is a different way of relating to the world.
- hdni 6y ago
  "What I cannot create, I do not understand." —Feynman Francis Bacon established the same idea as the foundation of the scientific method in "Novum Organum."
azhu 6y ago
People are all driven by something, and it is not being gritty for the sake of gritting. Figure out what it is and you can hack yourself into whatever you want just by pushing this "get up and get it done" motivational button. Find reasons why whatever goal fits with your deeper purpose and motivation will be by definition.
yboris 6y ago
I've been more skeptical of Grit after reading this: A Skeptical Look at the Latest Educational Fad By Alfie Kohn https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/grit/ https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/grit/ The gist of the argument is that grit may not be what we ought to aspire to sometimes. The justification for grit is circular. Why focus on just 1 thing as oppose to have several interests and activities? The author approaches the topic from perspective of raising children / education. It looks like grit is about forcing compliance with shitty curriculum in schools. Lots more good stuff in the article I linked to.
- bittercynic 6y ago
  Some very valid criticism there, but it seems to assume the educators involved will be small-minded hacks who just want students to be compliant. I've had the misfortune to get to know some educators like that, but also many great teachers who genuinely use "grit" as a jumping off point to help students identify goals that are important to them and to then develop the ability to pursue that goal even if it is not the most fun thing to do sometimes. For some students the satisfaction of sticking with a task through challenges and completing something difficult and meaningful is a revelation. I don't think it's a bad thing to get high and play video games, but if that's the only way you know how to have fun you are missing out on something worthwhile.
ineedasername 6y ago
Measures & metrics of "grit" are, at best, not that great. It is a quality difficult to capture, and methods tend not to distinguish between projects a person chooses to undertake and those a person has no interest, believes are without value, yet is forced to undertake. I've used Duckworth's grit assessments, and not found the results to be particularly predictive of the outcomes I was trying to measure Now, that said, "grit" is not always well understood. It's often considered a general-purpose quality. However, grit isn't necessarily about being good, or "gritty", at everything. It's much more about how you perform on something once you've chosen to do that thing. It is not about doing things that you don't believe have value to yourself. The athlete that sleeps through class is a good example: That person didn't explicitly choose academics. Academic responsibilities were an unwanted side effect. It wasn't something the person ever really wanted. Compare that with someone who chooses to go to college for academic reasons: Do they work hard? Stick to it? Persevere through problems? That is grit.
notJim 6y ago
I'm honestly grateful I've never been under any illusions of having grit. It sounds exhausting to be this laser focused on achievement and maximizing your success.
zarkov99 6y ago
It is true that its much easier to stick with and get good at things you love. But life does not always oblige our preferences. There are times when you have to buckle up and do things you very much rather not and the ability to do this without complaining is very valuable over time.
natmaka 6y ago
In my opinion the ultimate form of "grit", which is something along the "NEVER QUIT!" line, is (as are most "ultimate forms" of anything...) completely counterproductive and even dangerous. If nothing important is in line there is no good reason to dissipate resources into something when doing otherwise would be more efficient.

Man, this is probably my single greatest struggle as, like, a human in the world. I know I have the capability to try hard. I’ve done some neat stuff when I try hard. And yet, sometimes, I don’t. Even in areas, and on things, that matter a lot to me. And that makes it tough to look at myself every once in a while. I hope I get better at trying hard. Or maybe just understanding when I’m gonna try hard.

amenod 6y ago
I think you misunderstood (and my experience alignes with OPs). It is not about trying hard. It is not about working long hours, giving your best, persevering... it is about finding things you enjoy doing, context in which you shine, people who appreciate you. When a person is given a chance, they will try hard - not because they should, but because they enjoy it. It doesn't always work and sometimes you need to just push through. But mostly, I can't imagine working hard at something I don't find joy in.
josiahtullis 6y ago
Have you ever been tested for ADD?

viburnum 6y ago

The grit discourse is mostly about attributing poverty to individuals, rather than as an effect of the system as a whole.

hackissimo123 6y ago
Could poverty not be an effect of both?
- viburnum 6y ago
  “Grit” is just about which people get sorted into he poverty bin, not how big the poverty bin is.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  The hardest-working person on earth will probably die poor. You're right - there are a ton of factors that contribute to poverty, but grittiness (or lack thereof) is probably overvalued among the already-successful.

deleted 6y ago

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hyperpallium 6y ago

> isn’t because of grit, ... It’s because I enjoy doing them "Enjoying doing" is a gift, like a talent. Considering division of labour in a society, maybe each should use their gifts? An exception is needs, as in the article: diet, exercise, sleep ... but also things you need to do in order to get to the things you enjoy doing... Having both "I enjoy programming" and "12. Programming" may be an example of that.

irjustin 6y ago

I disagree with the author's premise that you have "grit" only when it can be applied in any direction. To me, "grit" requires adversity instead of simply overall breadth. It's quite easy for us humans to do something if everything is going well. What about when it's not going well? Do we have enough to persevere through all times, including hard ones? Your startup is failing? Your research is yielding no fruit? You can't get that promotion even though you've tried 3 times in 3 years? Pushing through adversity and continuing the grind in the face of simply giving up is better defined as "having grit". The problem simply is, maybe it is all just a waste? But that's not having grit! Under the author's premise, you should be trying 1000% at all areas of your life all the time. Unrealistic.

secondbreakfast 6y ago
I agree with you that grit means pushing through adversity. Specifically in my life, I've pushed through adversity when I cared more about trying than I did about the outcome. It's hard to quantify, but I've only recently enjoyed running. For years, I tried to run consistently and always gave up. Then, I moved to Sun Valley for a ski season. As the snow melted, I started running outside each morning. I looked forward to the cold air, the quiet mountains, the snow-capped scenery. Nothing changed in how I understood the importance of exercise. I just enjoyed getting outside more. Reflecting on areas where I've been told I "showed grit," they've really been areas where I naturally was interested - regardless of the outcome.
talliedthoughts 6y ago
That definition would push people into local maximums, always continuing the grind towards the initial goal instead of stepping back and reassessing if the goal still makes sense. There has to be a balance between these actions.
- cloverich 6y ago
  Persevering through adversity doesn't mean ignore opportunity. It means when the most obvious desirable outcome is blocked by challenges hard or unforeseen, don't simply give up. It applies in many situations but its not a panacea.

ardit33 6y ago

It is impossible to be really good at everything.... when I optimized for work, my fitness goals went through the window. When I optimized to get a project done, my reading (books) went down as well. When I optimized for fitness (working out and soccer), my work and side projects started progressing slower. It is very hard to work on your project at home, when you are in a intense bulking, or 'cutting' phase, and once you come home form the gym you just want to chill.... When I say 'optimize for', I mean that particular facet of your life becomes the more important one, and you spend more energy. Often you have to make choices: eg. social life, or project you are working on? The only key I found is to be good/focus your energy in one area at a time, while just being happy with being 'good enough' at other areas. Once you reach a desired in one area, you can switch your focus to other ones. *eg: once you reached a desirable physical shape, you can switch to 'maintain mode', and focus your energies to something new (e.g. learning a new tech, or starting a project). As gym rats say: 'Maintaining' is always easier than "Gaining, or Cutting". It is just physically impossible to optimize on everything in your life, no matter how ambitious you are, or how much 'grit' you have. (eg. you can't start a ambitious project, while having a great social life, and bulking up in the gym, while playing soccer regularly multiple times a week, and having a full time job, at the same time).

jimbob45 6y ago
It's not impossible...but it requires strict time management and everyone else in your life will try to steal your earmarked time and complain that you never want to do anything. Even then, I agree - I'm constantly accidentally over prioritizing and having to even back out.
- llamataboot 6y ago
  I find it's much better to always do whatever I want to do, and if I find out I'm not doing what I want to be doing even if I'm doing whatever I want to do, inquire into what sort of crazy thing led me to believe I wanted to do X while I was doing Y because I wanted to do Y. Conscious hedonism is the only way to live, but you better be willing to be conscious, cause doing what you "want" sucks until you get good at it.
- 6y ago

gnramires 6y ago

It is important to learn when to give up too. I guess this isn't talked about as much. Give up what you dislike or don't have real potential in favor of what you love etc. There are countless good examples of course; off the top of my head: - Darwin neglected his medical studies, to a point his father sent him elsewhere to become a parson (priest). All while pursuing his interests, and slacking off occasionally. "Darwin spent the summer of 1825 as an apprentice doctor, helping his father treat the poor of Shropshire, before going to the University of Edinburgh Medical School (at the time the best medical school in the UK) with his brother Erasmus in October 1825. Darwin found lectures dull and surgery distressing, so he neglected his studies. He learned taxidermy in around 40 daily hour-long sessions from John Edmonstone, a freed black slave who had accompanied Charles Waterton in the South American rainforest." "Darwin's neglect of medical studies annoyed his father, who shrewdly sent him to Christ's College, Cambridge, to study for a Bachelor of Arts degree as the first step towards becoming an Anglican country parson. As Darwin was unqualified for the Tripos, he joined the ordinary degree course in January 1828. He preferred riding and shooting to studying. His cousin William Darwin Fox introduced him to the popular craze for beetle collecting; Darwin pursued this zealously, getting some of his finds published in James Francis Stephens' Illustrations of British entomology. He became a close friend and follower of botany professor John Stevens Henslow and met other leading parson-naturalists who saw scientific work as religious natural theology, becoming known to these dons as "the man who walks with Henslow". When his own exams drew near, Darwin applied himself to his studies and was delighted by the language and logic of William Paley's Evidences of Christianity (1794). In his final examination in January 1831 Darwin did well, coming tenth out of 178 candidates for the ordinary degree." - On technology there are too many to count I guess? Bill Gates halted his undergrad at prestigious Hardvard. Or Elon Musk "In 1995, Musk commenced a PhD in energy physics/materials science at Stanford University in California. Eager to pursue opportunities in the Internet boom, however, he dropped out after just two days to launch his first company, Zip2 Corporation." Perhaps you could redefine Grit as ability to endure pain or keep motivation when you have worthwhile goals in mind (if you want to just adapt the word). Perhaps courage is a better word. To give up when you need or push through when you need.

hackissimo123 6y ago
Interestingly, the book cited in the link (Range by Epstein) talks about "grit" but it also talks about this same point - successful individuals are (generally) not only those who have grit but those who are good at knowing when it's worth persisting with grit and when it's better to give up.

pfortuny 6y ago

Man: go read Aristotle’s ethics and learn what the real good life is. “Grit”... Prudence, justice, temperance, fortitude. You need them all to lead a full life.

watwut 6y ago

> When I was a college runner, I had teammates whose drive and determination seemed almost boundless on the track, and nearly absent in the classroom, and vice versa. Instead of asking whether someone is gritty, we should ask when they are. This makes sense to me. On the personal level too. The trick is not to push harder, but to figure out how to make it so that you want to do it.

implicator 6y ago

There is a price for high performance. Read the road signs.

kstenerud 6y ago

Boxer (Animal Farm) had grit. Whenever things got tough, he'd say "I will work harder!" After his death, his saying became a mantra and model for other good citizens to follow.

secondbreakfast 6y ago
I revisited Animal Farm a few months ago. There are more and more mornings now where I'm reading the news, thinking about our world, and reminded of the animals on that farm.
- projektfu 6y ago
  Definitely, the people who think we’ve defeated the human issues in those books are horribly misguided. Stalinism is sufficient but not necessary to have Animal Farm.
Tade0 6y ago
I worked for a few companies whose mode of operation was exactly that. This works so long as there's a steady supply of young, talented people but falls flat on its face when the company tries to scale up its business.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kansface 6y ago
  Spoiler alert: The horse doesn't die, its turned into glue after being sent to a "vet" having collapsing from exhaustion.
  - Tade0 6y ago
    I remember, that's why I dodged that bullet by quitting.

HanP77 6y ago

Range is a very interesting book. Has a generalist I felt inadequate for a long time when I was younger (the pressure being find a domain and stick with it). I wish I had read something like this 10 years ago.

jzer0cool 6y ago

Grit = Just Do It (Nike Slogan). My easy definition: while(person_has_grit) { if(pivot) continue; if(give_up) break; } person_has_grit = false;

sillysaurusx 6y ago
Grit is overrated. Determination is what matters. Grit implies you'd grind yourself down at a task you know probably won't go well for you, just because you'd never give up, even when you get zero enjoyment or satisfaction out of it.
- deathgrips 6y ago
  You'd be hard pressed to find a rewarding skill where you don't absolutely suck for at least a year when you start practicing it. If you pick up something and you don't fail immediately and often, it's probably trivial.
- friendlybus 6y ago
  Grit is finding the smallest gains and consistently hitting them in a difficult situation. It burns time to hold space. It works best when you need to hold something at nearly any cost. Its rare morale holds that long without a strong structure backing it up.
- jzer0cool 6y ago
  I agree it is overrated. Was just defining grit. I think it matters to have a combination of traits, whether it be grit + determination + .... For fun, my coded solution for determination: while(!found()) continue;

jhbadger 6y ago

I thought this was going to be about getting tricked to sell subscriptions to "Grit". There used to be comic book ads from the 1950s to the 1980s that got kids to go door to door to sell subscriptions to a newspaper/magazine called "Grit". Supposedly, if you sold a lot of subscriptions you could get a free bike or a stereo or something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grit_(newspaper) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grit_(newspaper)

_hao 6y ago

I can see where the author is coming from and I think most of us have made sacrifices when it comes to things we wanted to learn or achieve. Time is never enough, social obligations pull you further etc. There are many reasons for that. I think people should choose wisely where they want to spend their time. The quote "Life's barely long enough to get good at one thing. So be careful what you get good at" by one True Detective is very poignant. That's why I prioritize when I need and I say "when" because the constant fight to prioritize for time is also time consuming and energy draining. If I'm reading an interesting book, I'll prioritize finishing it and I'll work less on my projects, but I'll leave enough time in the day for exercise (which is something very important to me) and work on them. That's on top of having a full time job and a partner. If you make yourself a routine based on certain slots you can use, no matter for what (top priority at the time) things move and happen! Projects get finished! Books get read! Exercise is done and you feel good and aching. We're not just machines despite how prevalent that sentiment is. We change all the time and life is change itself - constant movement. You either go with the flow and make your decisions based on the circumstances or you stop and die (mentally, psychologically). Continuing when you're hit with adversity is what "grit" is. If you really want to do it, you'll find a way to do it. But you have to make it easier for yourself and that is a constant fight!

fs111 6y ago

It is not important to work hard, it is important to be happy. Stop glorifying the act of working, please.

secondbreakfast 6y ago
Do you think the two are causally related? (Either positively correlated or negatively correlated?)
- fs111 6y ago
  They may or may not. Many people are happy when spending time with loved ones. You can live a happy life and never work "hard". Just do your job and be happy. There is nothing wrong with tbat.
- JackFr 6y ago
  Some people are lucky enough to find meaning in their work. That is a luxury. Many people need to work to live and will happily find meaning in other facets of their lives. But people shouldn’t believe that work is the only sort meaningful activity in life.
beaconstudios 6y ago
you can work hard at a hobby, or fitness, or many other areas that aren't commercial.
bonoboTP 6y ago
Happiness may be your ultimate goal (or did you pick it up from pop culture and movies?), and it's far from universal across people, cultures and eras (unless you define happiness in an extremely general, tautological sense of whatever one strives for). For many people it is attaining meaning, being and being seen as competent and useful, it is obtaining power or sacrificing oneself for an idea or their family. If you say that's all forms of happiness, then again that definition is pretty empty then.
Aeolun 6y ago
Working hard makes me happy.

epigramx 6y ago

> I am smart

doublesCs 6y ago

I have learned the same thing about myself: I am (relatively) successful not because my grit allowed me to keep doing something which I disliked but were rewarded, but because the things I enjoy doing are things which are valued by our society. I realized this after reading the following Warren Buffet quote[1]: "I happen to have a talent for allocating capital. But my ability to use that talent is completely dependent on the society I was born into. If I’d been born into a tribe of hunters, this talent of mine would be pretty worthless. I can’t run very fast. I’m not particularly strong. I’d probably end up as some wild animal’s dinner. But I was lucky enough to be born in a time and place where society values my talent, and gave me a good education to develop that talent, and set up the laws and the financial system to let me do what I love doing — and make a lot of money doing it. The least I can do is help pay for all that." [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett

oska 6y ago
Somehow I think Buffett would have ended up a parasite in any society. There's always been a niche for the Buffett type.
- wegs 6y ago
  Why do you think he's a parasite? He seems to live a modest life, and work very hard to make the economy work more efficiently. He's giving almost all of his money to philanthropic causes, and seems to campaign for all the right causes. He maintains a pretty low profile for his level of success (he doesn't even support philanthropy through his own family foundation; he went with Gates, since he thought they'd do a better job). I think he's had about $10 million in frivolous spending in his life (a plane, and a home in California). I agree most people in the financial sector seem to be parasites, but Warren doesn't seem that way.
  - oska 6y ago
    I think his claim to be a beneficial 'allocator of capital' is bogus. He tends to invest in established exploitative companies. His investments have been made on an almost exclusive basis of growing wealth, which in the end is a very sterile end to aim for. > I'll tell you why I like the cigarette business. It costs a penny to make. Sell it for a dollar. It's addictive. And there's fantastic brand loyalty. — Buffett, quoted in Barbarians at the Gate: The Fall of RJR Nabisco I agree he's led a modest life. I am somewhat dubious about his claims to be a philanthropist. I don't see exploiting the world (Buffett & Gates) necessarily redeemed by later posing as a philanthropist. None of this is meant as a critique of capitalism. Just a critique of the kind of sterile, exploitative capitalism that Buffett practises, that he then tries to dress up as philanthropy. "It's ok if I give away all my money at the end" - well he can't take it with him can he? And at 89, he still hasn't given most of it away anyway. Finally, here's a link to a much more detailed criticism of Buffett, if you're interested: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/special-investigation-the-dirty-secret-behind-warren-buffetts-billions/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/special-investigat...

friendlybus 6y ago

I dont get this article. Is he blaming the school for complimenting displayed characteristics? Does he think an element of character is a superpowered attribute that works everywhere like a videogame? Take the complement and move on, your character is not the same as fixed biological attributes or abilities. You weren't "tricked".

secondbreakfast 6y ago
I recently realized in the past I’ve had an inflated self-perception of myself specifically around work ethic and “grit.” But I conveniently ignored areas where I have failed to put in the work and push through. It may be okay to not have “grit.” I no longer believe I have any more or less grit than the average person. I’m not sure what this realization necessarily means nor do I fault anyone else for this. It just is what it is!
- friendlybus 6y ago
  I don't know what to say, it depends on what those "ignored areas" are. We have a primary goal and prioritize for it, not getting all the way on your second and third priorities isn't exactly uncommon. Do you "have" grit or do you display it? It's part of character we choose how much energy to put in.
michaelt 6y ago
I think he's talking about his own evaluation of himself (based on what people told him) and how that caused him to deploy his own resources. People who tell me I'm strong are complimenting me, but if I end up thinking I can carry a big ol' sofa up the stairs all by myself, I'm going to have a bad time :)

creativenolo 6y ago

It's a pleasure to read with hanging punctuation on a screen.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

rmason 6y ago

Every successful startup has a half dozen times it's on the verge of failure. Any reasonable person would say it's over. But those with grit refuse to give in and find a way. But I've also known founders who repeatedly fail, constantly survive crises. They lose their house, get divorced and still soldier on refusing to give up. Both entrepreneurs have grit, but only the first one is successful. Grit is vital to winning but it's not the only thing you need.

karol 6y ago

When I worked for a pensions company they sat me next to the CEO. He was a pleasant man most of the time, who could sometimes show a touch of arrogance towards his PA. I saw him mostly work at a slide deck all week and reading a book called Grit. Later I noticed he put a few sentences from the book into his deck. "We don't go home when we are tired, we go home when we are done" stuck in my head. After a few years of my own struggles at being consistently productive my conclusion is grit is an emergent behaviour you cannot optimise for. You most probably want to use different words such as 'consistency' (this one works for me). I see grit as something opposite of health and balance. A short-term display of stamina that might trigger unwanted consequences in other areas of life.

OakNinja 6y ago
Like a friend of mine who collapsed after, comparably, running a marathon when he had not fully recovered from the flu/covid-19 or something similar. He’s OK now though. He never bails out unless unconscious. He’s one of the most reliable persons I’ve ever known, and he has gotten where he wants to in life so it’s not necessarily bad.
- badpun 6y ago
  Friend's father was like that (and a very successful man). He died at 52 from a heart attack while running...

bl4ckm0r3 6y ago

Just a comment, that i don't want to sound as a critique or a judgement of any kind...there's is a great value in re-evaluating and without this step the "grit" becomes easily stubbornness...BUT it's also very important not to use the "re-evaluation" to mask or hide 1) lack of clear objectives (why am I doing this thing that i don't particularly enjoy) 2) laziness (it's sooooooo easy to fall into the "i'll do it tomorrow" mentality). But honestly having a clear objective and a reasoning behind achieving it that we believe in and you get all the grit you need to achieve it! The gym is the classic example, most people sign up but they aren't too convinced about it...why are you there?where are you trying to get?will this reasoning motivate you after the initial "this is not bad" or "hey I am improving quickly" phase? ps disclaimer I don't go to the gym (but I do other sports)

Gravityloss 6y ago

They might not be a gritty writer. But they are a good writer.

elongatedMusku 6y ago
*They?
secondbreakfast 6y ago
thank you! made my day

sradman 6y ago

> The reason I’ve stuck with the things I have isn’t because of grit, as I might have once believed. It’s because I enjoy doing them. “Enjoyment” is only one way of achieving the focus required to succeed. Frustration and ego (e.g. proving yourself) are just as common and useful. The trick is priority ranking what we focus on given our comparative advantage and the opportunity for improvement. What drives our relative ranking algorithm differs between people in any given situation. Grit is the ability to overcome what Paul Graham calls “schlep blindness”. Grit applied to low impact problems is what the cool kids call “bike shedding “.

renewiltord 6y ago

Relatedly, Paul Graham on Obsession http://paulgraham.com/genius.html http://paulgraham.com/genius.html

mcv 6y ago

I lack grit in exactly the same way. I love working on things I'm passionate about, I'm fortunate that programming is one of them (or more accurately: some aspects of programming), but there are plenty of things on which I struggle to motivate myself to do them. I tend to call it discipline or willpower rather than 'grit', but I guess it's the same thing. I did notice that my wife and I have and lack this willpower in exactly opposite ways. I'm good at doing the right thing when it involves not doing something, like avoiding unhealthy food, or staying at home (which is suddenly very relevant). She has better willpower when it comes to doing things, like handling taxes and other paperwork on time.

shoes_for_thee 6y ago
Yeah, I think most of the conversation here would be more clear if we simply traded the somewhat-ambiguous "grit" for the better-defined "discipline" and "willpower".

davidhyde 6y ago

I was tricked into reading that. Clever title, well done!

k__ 6y ago

As far as I know, "grit" is the only thing really needed for success. That and luck. And grit will even out the odds for your.

millhouse_ams 6y ago

Grit is just a marketable term for what has been know for a long time as conscientiousness, one of the five main personality traits in psychology

kotrunga 6y ago

"Instead of asking whether someone is gritty, we should ask when they are."

motohagiography 6y ago

The concept the OP may be looking for is Aristotle's Techne. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techne In the things you do in your life, you are either a spectator or a participant, and if you are just a critic of something, you are a spectator. Really good seats don't make you a participant either. Physical competence is a different way of relating to the world.

hdni 6y ago
"What I cannot create, I do not understand." —Feynman Francis Bacon established the same idea as the foundation of the scientific method in "Novum Organum."

azhu 6y ago

People are all driven by something, and it is not being gritty for the sake of gritting. Figure out what it is and you can hack yourself into whatever you want just by pushing this "get up and get it done" motivational button. Find reasons why whatever goal fits with your deeper purpose and motivation will be by definition.

yboris 6y ago

I've been more skeptical of Grit after reading this: A Skeptical Look at the Latest Educational Fad By Alfie Kohn https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/grit/ https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/grit/ The gist of the argument is that grit may not be what we ought to aspire to sometimes. The justification for grit is circular. Why focus on just 1 thing as oppose to have several interests and activities? The author approaches the topic from perspective of raising children / education. It looks like grit is about forcing compliance with shitty curriculum in schools. Lots more good stuff in the article I linked to.

bittercynic 6y ago
Some very valid criticism there, but it seems to assume the educators involved will be small-minded hacks who just want students to be compliant. I've had the misfortune to get to know some educators like that, but also many great teachers who genuinely use "grit" as a jumping off point to help students identify goals that are important to them and to then develop the ability to pursue that goal even if it is not the most fun thing to do sometimes. For some students the satisfaction of sticking with a task through challenges and completing something difficult and meaningful is a revelation. I don't think it's a bad thing to get high and play video games, but if that's the only way you know how to have fun you are missing out on something worthwhile.

ineedasername 6y ago

Measures & metrics of "grit" are, at best, not that great. It is a quality difficult to capture, and methods tend not to distinguish between projects a person chooses to undertake and those a person has no interest, believes are without value, yet is forced to undertake. I've used Duckworth's grit assessments, and not found the results to be particularly predictive of the outcomes I was trying to measure Now, that said, "grit" is not always well understood. It's often considered a general-purpose quality. However, grit isn't necessarily about being good, or "gritty", at everything. It's much more about how you perform on something once you've chosen to do that thing. It is not about doing things that you don't believe have value to yourself. The athlete that sleeps through class is a good example: That person didn't explicitly choose academics. Academic responsibilities were an unwanted side effect. It wasn't something the person ever really wanted. Compare that with someone who chooses to go to college for academic reasons: Do they work hard? Stick to it? Persevere through problems? That is grit.

notJim 6y ago

I'm honestly grateful I've never been under any illusions of having grit. It sounds exhausting to be this laser focused on achievement and maximizing your success.

zarkov99 6y ago

It is true that its much easier to stick with and get good at things you love. But life does not always oblige our preferences. There are times when you have to buckle up and do things you very much rather not and the ability to do this without complaining is very valuable over time.

natmaka 6y ago

In my opinion the ultimate form of "grit", which is something along the "NEVER QUIT!" line, is (as are most "ultimate forms" of anything...) completely counterproductive and even dangerous. If nothing important is in line there is no good reason to dissipate resources into something when doing otherwise would be more efficient.