7 ms·

Iirc a German friend got more than 12 months severance for a lay-off in SAP. It’s interesting to Compare differences in norms around the world.

RhodesianHunter 6y ago
From what I've seen 12 months pay in Germany is probably equivalent to 3.5 months pay in the US.
- sverhagen 6y ago
  What does that even mean? Are you talking about buying power? How much you lose on taxes? You make it sound like Germany is a low wage country. Their minimum wage is around 9 euros, versus 7 dollars in the US, no?
  - deaddodo 6y ago
    The Federal minimum wage is a useless metric. California's minimum wage is $12 (and higher, in some counties) and is set to increase to $15/hr by 2022 (assuming COVID doesn't have some major echoing effects). Also, they're referring to white collar tech employees. All salaried, all well above minimum wage and most definitively the highest paid (in that industry) in the world, including outside of SF/the Bay.
- virtualritz 6y ago
  Pardon my frankness but that's BS. What are you referring to here? How much money buys you? Aka: costs of living? How much you make, converting EUR to USD? What industry? IT? I worked in a leadership position at a multi-national in Berlin for almost five years. I know the salaries the engineers had in CA & Chicago vs Germany. US was maybe 20% more max. In terms of what it buys you ... not so much. See below. Cost of living in Munich (one of Germany's most expensive cities) vs. SF.[1] And then Berlin (one of Germany's cheapest cities) vs. SF.[2] [1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Munich&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
  - RHSeeger 6y ago
    I assumed what was meant was how generous it was compared to a normal severance package in the country. Ie, if a normal package would be 2 months in the US and this is 3.5, then saying it's like a 12 month package in Germany implies that a normal German package would be just under 7 months.
  - eanzenberg 6y ago
    It’s worth making 4x in the states and paying less taxes to boot. Forget cost of living, only rent is more expensive so tack on an extra $2k a month if you don’t want to live with roommates.
    - concerned_user 6y ago
      While you are young and healthy sure, but if something happens to you or when you get older, not so much.
      - manigandham 6y ago
        Why not? Can't you purchase the same insurance, protections and care with 4x earnings and lower taxes?
        LunaSea 6y ago
        Well for one you might but it will be incredibly expensive and probably still cover less than in the Netherlands. Also, the cost means that it is something you can only afford while you are still working. So if you do get hurt and can't work or get fired you lose that privilege. That is also a cost of opportunity that you lose by living in the US and that is not factored into the price of the insurance directly.
        eanzenberg 6y ago
        This US healthcare meme is tiring and uninformed. A small minority have financial hardships due to medical emergencies here, and they for the most part aren’t poor, who get healthcare for free.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  googling Silicon Valley programmer wages I got https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-jose-computer-programmer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,8_IM761_KO9,28.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-jose-computer-program... Which basically the average Silicon valley wage is the wage I am making now. However that is with quite a bit of seniority, I've noticed offers from Germany are generally lower than what I make but Germany costs less. If I were starting out right now I would probably make 60% of what I make now. My guesstimate of the difference has always been that a years pay in Denmark was equivalent to 8 months pay in the better paid parts of the U.S.
  - john117 6y ago
    Those wages are severely off. Glassdoor is no longer used in the United States to research wages for tech. An average engineer at a top tech company makes well over 250k USD per annum.
- danieldisu 6y ago
  If you compare SF to any german city it may be that way, but the median salary (not only IT) is not that different(56k$ to 46k€ according to google). Remember that there are people outside IT/SV!
  - RhodesianHunter 6y ago
    I can get a remote job working from anywhere in the US that pays me double what anyone will pay me in Germany (or anywhere else in the EU). I look frequently, because if the pay was equal (or even 3/4) I'd love to live in Europe.
ekianjo 6y ago
there are also regulatory requirements at play in different countries that can make it much harder to fire people (and causes unemployment in the end because companies will think twice before hiring, too).
booblik 6y ago
The US workers, at least in IT make much more money than their European counterparts, while paying less taxes. A wise person could in theory save 20% or more every month to create own safety net, while still enjoying a high standard of living. Alas this is not the American way of life, where it is not uncommon to spend even over 100K per year on a lavish lifestyle and living in debt.
- Moru 6y ago
  But if you save up for your own safety net, you might get very high bills if you get one of the sicknesses that are not covered by the insurance. Either you depend on society or the market. Both have their problems.
  - booblik 6y ago
    That is a tradeoff. Also most lower paid workers in the US don’t have the luxury to save money at all.
- thesimon 6y ago
  How could Europeans move to the US? Apply to a position and hope to be moved over with a L1 visa?
  - technicaldonut 6y ago
    Few options. Find an employer who is willing to hire you and go through H1B visa lottery, which is the normal work visa. Enroll in a US university, ideally a STEM degree, and use the OPT visa extension to get a foothold in the US. Marry an American? Probably plenty more options, but I'm not an expert in US immigration.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      Join a company based in the US (like many tech companies), and do a really good job. They will then start trying to get you to move to the US, under an L1/L2 (if you can handle management, L2 tends to be better as your partner/spouse can work). Immediately apply for a green card. Preferably be born in a small European country, so the green card comes in your lifetime.
KorematsuFred 6y ago
It would also mean SAP in Germany hires less frequently and in less numbers.

RhodesianHunter 6y ago

From what I've seen 12 months pay in Germany is probably equivalent to 3.5 months pay in the US.

sverhagen 6y ago
What does that even mean? Are you talking about buying power? How much you lose on taxes? You make it sound like Germany is a low wage country. Their minimum wage is around 9 euros, versus 7 dollars in the US, no?
- deaddodo 6y ago
  The Federal minimum wage is a useless metric. California's minimum wage is $12 (and higher, in some counties) and is set to increase to $15/hr by 2022 (assuming COVID doesn't have some major echoing effects). Also, they're referring to white collar tech employees. All salaried, all well above minimum wage and most definitively the highest paid (in that industry) in the world, including outside of SF/the Bay.
virtualritz 6y ago
Pardon my frankness but that's BS. What are you referring to here? How much money buys you? Aka: costs of living? How much you make, converting EUR to USD? What industry? IT? I worked in a leadership position at a multi-national in Berlin for almost five years. I know the salaries the engineers had in CA & Chicago vs Germany. US was maybe 20% more max. In terms of what it buys you ... not so much. See below. Cost of living in Munich (one of Germany's most expensive cities) vs. SF.[1] And then Berlin (one of Germany's cheapest cities) vs. SF.[2] [1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Munich&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  I assumed what was meant was how generous it was compared to a normal severance package in the country. Ie, if a normal package would be 2 months in the US and this is 3.5, then saying it's like a 12 month package in Germany implies that a normal German package would be just under 7 months.
- eanzenberg 6y ago
  It’s worth making 4x in the states and paying less taxes to boot. Forget cost of living, only rent is more expensive so tack on an extra $2k a month if you don’t want to live with roommates.
  - concerned_user 6y ago
    While you are young and healthy sure, but if something happens to you or when you get older, not so much.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      Why not? Can't you purchase the same insurance, protections and care with 4x earnings and lower taxes?
      - LunaSea 6y ago
        Well for one you might but it will be incredibly expensive and probably still cover less than in the Netherlands. Also, the cost means that it is something you can only afford while you are still working. So if you do get hurt and can't work or get fired you lose that privilege. That is also a cost of opportunity that you lose by living in the US and that is not factored into the price of the insurance directly.
        eanzenberg 6y ago
        This US healthcare meme is tiring and uninformed. A small minority have financial hardships due to medical emergencies here, and they for the most part aren’t poor, who get healthcare for free.
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
googling Silicon Valley programmer wages I got https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-jose-computer-programmer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,8_IM761_KO9,28.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-jose-computer-program... Which basically the average Silicon valley wage is the wage I am making now. However that is with quite a bit of seniority, I've noticed offers from Germany are generally lower than what I make but Germany costs less. If I were starting out right now I would probably make 60% of what I make now. My guesstimate of the difference has always been that a years pay in Denmark was equivalent to 8 months pay in the better paid parts of the U.S.
- john117 6y ago
  Those wages are severely off. Glassdoor is no longer used in the United States to research wages for tech. An average engineer at a top tech company makes well over 250k USD per annum.
danieldisu 6y ago
If you compare SF to any german city it may be that way, but the median salary (not only IT) is not that different(56k$ to 46k€ according to google). Remember that there are people outside IT/SV!
- RhodesianHunter 6y ago
  I can get a remote job working from anywhere in the US that pays me double what anyone will pay me in Germany (or anywhere else in the EU). I look frequently, because if the pay was equal (or even 3/4) I'd love to live in Europe.

ekianjo 6y ago

there are also regulatory requirements at play in different countries that can make it much harder to fire people (and causes unemployment in the end because companies will think twice before hiring, too).

booblik 6y ago

The US workers, at least in IT make much more money than their European counterparts, while paying less taxes. A wise person could in theory save 20% or more every month to create own safety net, while still enjoying a high standard of living. Alas this is not the American way of life, where it is not uncommon to spend even over 100K per year on a lavish lifestyle and living in debt.

Moru 6y ago
But if you save up for your own safety net, you might get very high bills if you get one of the sicknesses that are not covered by the insurance. Either you depend on society or the market. Both have their problems.
- booblik 6y ago
  That is a tradeoff. Also most lower paid workers in the US don’t have the luxury to save money at all.
thesimon 6y ago
How could Europeans move to the US? Apply to a position and hope to be moved over with a L1 visa?
- technicaldonut 6y ago
  Few options. Find an employer who is willing to hire you and go through H1B visa lottery, which is the normal work visa. Enroll in a US university, ideally a STEM degree, and use the OPT visa extension to get a foothold in the US. Marry an American? Probably plenty more options, but I'm not an expert in US immigration.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    Join a company based in the US (like many tech companies), and do a really good job. They will then start trying to get you to move to the US, under an L1/L2 (if you can handle management, L2 tends to be better as your partner/spouse can work). Immediately apply for a green card. Preferably be born in a small European country, so the green card comes in your lifetime.

KorematsuFred 6y ago

It would also mean SAP in Germany hires less frequently and in less numbers.