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> I've found helpful to read the official opinion of opinions I disagree with. Start to finish, including the dissent. With respect to modern rulings, I have ye

> I've found helpful to read the official opinion of opinions I disagree with. Start to finish, including the dissent. With respect to modern rulings, I have yet to walk away finding the arguments abysmal. In almost every case, I disagree with the law, not the court. My impressions from the podcasts of actual law professors and lawyers is that there are various interpretations of the law that trend towards liberal or conservative values, and the strategic dressing of how the law is read is itself a political strategy to legitimize a political reasoning as an apolitical law analysis. For example, the choice of a judge to read only the text and law as it is written (textualism) without caring about the general context as to why it exists or the effects of the law in modern day can often be used to ignore the actual injustice occurring as a result of a law that doesn't actually produce just outcomes even when the supposed intention is such. It's arguably pedantry. But when the same purely text-based reading is applied for progressive arguments, as in the hearings for sex-based discrimination, the conservative justices have abruptly shifted their questions to be concerned about the societal effects (bathrooms) or the original intention of the law (originalism). This sort of flip-flopping of evaluation strategies is often used as a basis of argument that while there are multiple reading frameworks of law, the actual frameworks used are often for political/personal purposes and judges are proposed based off their conservative or liberal bent in analysis.

abdullahkhalids 6y ago
As a scientist, this is how scientists also behave when there is disagreement. Humans will be human. As long as courts remain within reasonable bounds of "filling in the holes", that is good enough. And we can think about improving the process.
- SkyBelow 6y ago
  That is perhaps my largest issue with science. On controversial topics, the level of criticism is not equally applied. It is even worse when we talk about what science filters down to the average voter, as even in cases where the scientists may be fair in their criticism, the public eye is still selective and given unequal weight to certain criticisms.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  We are lucky that fundamental disagreements, for the most part, don’t happen in pure mathematics.
  - abdullahkhalids 6y ago
    Yes. But I think this is because, any area of study in which such disagreements can happen are, are by definition excluded from pure mathematics. What is surprising is that what remains to be studied is vast and beautiful and highly effective when borrowed by other disciplines.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      I don't particularly think it's surprising that results from the study of structure end up applying to other disciplines. The wonder of the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" is really that we've managed to find those bits that line up the best between mathematics and other fields.
  - SkyBelow 6y ago
    I thought they do, but they result in spawning new areas of mathematics. Though more often than disagreements, it is questions are are unanswered and either proven unanswerable, or have failed all attempts to achieve an answer. For example, math has been developed for both the outcome that the Riemann hypothesis is true and that it is false. There is sometimes even the fun possibility of these questions being unsolvable and the implications it has if we assume it will eventually be proven a question cannot be answered yes or no (though I can't recall if there are any significant results from assuming such). My memory is a bit poor on the matter, and my knowledge limited, but I think I've even read of people disagreeing with fundamental concepts in mathematics and attempting to see what happens when you do so. Does it result in a field of math that behaves the same? Does it make working certain problems easier and others harder? And then you get the fun stuff like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle#Criticisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle#Critici... But alas, I have too little education to be more than a confused spectator of such debates.
kube-system 6y ago
I don't think the subjectivity of a politicized situation is evidence of politically motivated subjectivity. I think it is adequately explained by the inherent subjectivity involved with human interpretation. To illustrate: nearly everyone varies their frameworks for justification, even when the situation is clearly apolitical. e.g. Even a mother raising a child will use these justifications frameworks interchangeably as needed. I can hear my mother now: * "Why? Because I said so" (textualism) * "Be nice and share with your sister" (societal effects) * "You know what I meant" (originalism)
- pmiller2 6y ago
  You have to consider as well that SCOTUS justices are lifetime political appointees. There is definitely a trend in their opinions toward the same end of the spectrum as the President who nominated them. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideological_leanings_of_United_States_Supreme_Court_justices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideological_leanings_of_United...
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Of course. POTUS is a political position, and the process of choosing their appointees is politically motivated decision. But political motivation does not necessarily follow the transitive property, which is part of the reason why a lifetime appointment is a good idea.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      > ...political motivation does not necessarily follow the transitive property.... No, it doesn't necessarily, but there is evidence that it does in practice. That is my point.
      - kube-system 6y ago
        SCOTUS being constructed out of political motivation does not, in itself, make the members of SCOTUS themselves motivated by politics. Having a belief system is inherent to human nature, and SCOTUS does not select their own members. The political motivation is exclusively a part of the selection process. That's my point.

abdullahkhalids 6y ago

As a scientist, this is how scientists also behave when there is disagreement. Humans will be human. As long as courts remain within reasonable bounds of "filling in the holes", that is good enough. And we can think about improving the process.

SkyBelow 6y ago
That is perhaps my largest issue with science. On controversial topics, the level of criticism is not equally applied. It is even worse when we talk about what science filters down to the average voter, as even in cases where the scientists may be fair in their criticism, the public eye is still selective and given unequal weight to certain criticisms.
pmiller2 6y ago
We are lucky that fundamental disagreements, for the most part, don’t happen in pure mathematics.
- abdullahkhalids 6y ago
  Yes. But I think this is because, any area of study in which such disagreements can happen are, are by definition excluded from pure mathematics. What is surprising is that what remains to be studied is vast and beautiful and highly effective when borrowed by other disciplines.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    I don't particularly think it's surprising that results from the study of structure end up applying to other disciplines. The wonder of the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" is really that we've managed to find those bits that line up the best between mathematics and other fields.
- SkyBelow 6y ago
  I thought they do, but they result in spawning new areas of mathematics. Though more often than disagreements, it is questions are are unanswered and either proven unanswerable, or have failed all attempts to achieve an answer. For example, math has been developed for both the outcome that the Riemann hypothesis is true and that it is false. There is sometimes even the fun possibility of these questions being unsolvable and the implications it has if we assume it will eventually be proven a question cannot be answered yes or no (though I can't recall if there are any significant results from assuming such). My memory is a bit poor on the matter, and my knowledge limited, but I think I've even read of people disagreeing with fundamental concepts in mathematics and attempting to see what happens when you do so. Does it result in a field of math that behaves the same? Does it make working certain problems easier and others harder? And then you get the fun stuff like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle#Criticisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle#Critici... But alas, I have too little education to be more than a confused spectator of such debates.

kube-system 6y ago

I don't think the subjectivity of a politicized situation is evidence of politically motivated subjectivity. I think it is adequately explained by the inherent subjectivity involved with human interpretation. To illustrate: nearly everyone varies their frameworks for justification, even when the situation is clearly apolitical. e.g. Even a mother raising a child will use these justifications frameworks interchangeably as needed. I can hear my mother now: * "Why? Because I said so" (textualism) * "Be nice and share with your sister" (societal effects) * "You know what I meant" (originalism)

pmiller2 6y ago
You have to consider as well that SCOTUS justices are lifetime political appointees. There is definitely a trend in their opinions toward the same end of the spectrum as the President who nominated them. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideological_leanings_of_United_States_Supreme_Court_justices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideological_leanings_of_United...
- kube-system 6y ago
  Of course. POTUS is a political position, and the process of choosing their appointees is politically motivated decision. But political motivation does not necessarily follow the transitive property, which is part of the reason why a lifetime appointment is a good idea.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    > ...political motivation does not necessarily follow the transitive property.... No, it doesn't necessarily, but there is evidence that it does in practice. That is my point.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      SCOTUS being constructed out of political motivation does not, in itself, make the members of SCOTUS themselves motivated by politics. Having a belief system is inherent to human nature, and SCOTUS does not select their own members. The political motivation is exclusively a part of the selection process. That's my point.