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> Then I worked for a tech giant, and then for a high-growth unicorn. It shocked me how dilbertesque they both were. Full of politicians, and burnt out engineer

> Then I worked for a tech giant, and then for a high-growth unicorn. It shocked me how dilbertesque they both were. Full of politicians, and burnt out engineers in golden handcuffs who can't wait to get out, and meaningless business speak, and checked out employees who pretend they're "excited" about everything all the time. The young, wide-eyed engineers seem hopelessly naive to me now. I don't know this person. I wasn't there. I don't know which tech giant. Certainly there are plenty of stories of large multinationals with dilbertesque politics, and checked out zombies. But something tells me that this author's experience was only because he was comparing it to the glory days of his own startup where everyone was intensely invested and engaged. The truth is there is a middle ground: employment. You are engaged insofar as you receive a paycheck, and you want to do good work to continue getting that paycheck. But you also care enough to do a good job because you're human, and because you want a raise or a promotion, or even a cookie from your peers that says "go you". You probably also like the specific job more than you would other ones. The loudest stories rise to the top of HN, but I think most professional industry is just this. That doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Politics has purpose. And when you yourself are cynical, everyone else's excitement rings hollow and you think they are pretending and are actually checked out..

opportune 6y ago
Also, depending on the place, a lot of the dilbertesque politics and process are just having a safe/more conservative culture. Getting buy in, satisfying stakeholders, making sure the safe happy protocol is followed - it's so you don't end up in a situation where a junior engineer is tasked with fixing production while you bleed $5k/minute and someone gets fired for it. Instead you blame the process and fix it methodically. That's arguably a lot better than cowbody devops. At a startup, especially as a founder, you're encouraged to be a hero and give it your all partly because your incentives are really well aligned - if you succeed you could make $100mm or (a lot) more. As an employee, maybe you get fired or promoted, maybe your stock gains like 1% in value because of something you do or prevented... Some people are more checked out than others, but I agree, you're just an employee and it would be foolish to really put your heart and soul into your day job for most people
- Aeolun 6y ago
  That is true to some extend for the employees’ motives, but the reality is that most just clearly don’t care beyond their paycheck or resume building. Even the leadership doesn’t want to do what is best for the company/product, but what is best for themselves. It’ll be dressed up nicely of course, but that doesn’t change the reality of the thing. > Instead you blame the process and fix it methodically. You blame the process, but are unwilling to really change it, so you just keep repeating the same kind of fixes ad nauseam.
- taurath 6y ago
  > Getting buy in, satisfying stakeholders, making sure the safe happy protocol is followed - it's so you don't end up in a situation where a junior engineer is tasked with fixing production Its also so you can get the thing you really want by sacrificing the thing you don't care about. You get to maintain longer term relationships which lowers people's defensiveness and allows you to move more liquid through the pipes because there aren't people limiting your flow out of defensiveness or because they don't believe in what you're doing.
hindsightbias 6y ago
In the old days, people went to church, played sports or bought a new pair of $300 sneakers to find fulfillment. Maybe bootcamps need a liberal arts or sports track. How long will this hangover from change-the-world-itis last?
razzimatazz 6y ago
I think the middle ground can be a great place to work in tech, all it takes is one other person to work with that is willing to care about the things you achieve together. Typical examples include our dysfunctional regression testing days. Tedium and pain when given the task alone and the person in change is just waiting to hear it's done. Bearable and in fact a shared challenge when you work through it together, with some small elements of process thrown in, and ended with credit given for getting the painful but necessary task done. Even if a different person sitting near to you is checked out. I actually like to take my job satisfaction and rub it in their face a little.
superfrank 6y ago
I feel like a lot of times when people complain about a company politics, it's only because they are on the losing side of the issue. When it works in their favor it's just the company culture. Mentally, I've started replacing complaints about politics with "nobody is listening to me".
- mstibbard 6y ago
  I'm constantly witnessing silly political battles, regardless of whether I have skin in the game. If you've ever done consulting work and joined a project midway through you'll immediately receive a healthy dose of it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
gitgud 6y ago
> "And when you yourself are cynical, everyone else's excitement rings hollow and you think they are pretending and are actually checked out.." This resonates with me a lot. When people are excited, I sometimes become critical/jealous and think they're possibly doing it for attention. It takes a shift in perspective and humility to appreciate other people's point of view and share their excitement...
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
I suspect decent companies are rarer than you think. I spent quite a few years doing short term contracts (usually 1-2 weeks) and out of all the places I visited there were only a couple that I'd consider working for.

opportune 6y ago

Also, depending on the place, a lot of the dilbertesque politics and process are just having a safe/more conservative culture. Getting buy in, satisfying stakeholders, making sure the safe happy protocol is followed - it's so you don't end up in a situation where a junior engineer is tasked with fixing production while you bleed $5k/minute and someone gets fired for it. Instead you blame the process and fix it methodically. That's arguably a lot better than cowbody devops. At a startup, especially as a founder, you're encouraged to be a hero and give it your all partly because your incentives are really well aligned - if you succeed you could make $100mm or (a lot) more. As an employee, maybe you get fired or promoted, maybe your stock gains like 1% in value because of something you do or prevented... Some people are more checked out than others, but I agree, you're just an employee and it would be foolish to really put your heart and soul into your day job for most people

Aeolun 6y ago
That is true to some extend for the employees’ motives, but the reality is that most just clearly don’t care beyond their paycheck or resume building. Even the leadership doesn’t want to do what is best for the company/product, but what is best for themselves. It’ll be dressed up nicely of course, but that doesn’t change the reality of the thing. > Instead you blame the process and fix it methodically. You blame the process, but are unwilling to really change it, so you just keep repeating the same kind of fixes ad nauseam.
taurath 6y ago
> Getting buy in, satisfying stakeholders, making sure the safe happy protocol is followed - it's so you don't end up in a situation where a junior engineer is tasked with fixing production Its also so you can get the thing you really want by sacrificing the thing you don't care about. You get to maintain longer term relationships which lowers people's defensiveness and allows you to move more liquid through the pipes because there aren't people limiting your flow out of defensiveness or because they don't believe in what you're doing.

hindsightbias 6y ago

In the old days, people went to church, played sports or bought a new pair of $300 sneakers to find fulfillment. Maybe bootcamps need a liberal arts or sports track. How long will this hangover from change-the-world-itis last?

razzimatazz 6y ago

I think the middle ground can be a great place to work in tech, all it takes is one other person to work with that is willing to care about the things you achieve together. Typical examples include our dysfunctional regression testing days. Tedium and pain when given the task alone and the person in change is just waiting to hear it's done. Bearable and in fact a shared challenge when you work through it together, with some small elements of process thrown in, and ended with credit given for getting the painful but necessary task done. Even if a different person sitting near to you is checked out. I actually like to take my job satisfaction and rub it in their face a little.

superfrank 6y ago

I feel like a lot of times when people complain about a company politics, it's only because they are on the losing side of the issue. When it works in their favor it's just the company culture. Mentally, I've started replacing complaints about politics with "nobody is listening to me".

mstibbard 6y ago
I'm constantly witnessing silly political battles, regardless of whether I have skin in the game. If you've ever done consulting work and joined a project midway through you'll immediately receive a healthy dose of it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

gitgud 6y ago

> "And when you yourself are cynical, everyone else's excitement rings hollow and you think they are pretending and are actually checked out.." This resonates with me a lot. When people are excited, I sometimes become critical/jealous and think they're possibly doing it for attention. It takes a shift in perspective and humility to appreciate other people's point of view and share their excitement...

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

I suspect decent companies are rarer than you think. I spent quite a few years doing short term contracts (usually 1-2 weeks) and out of all the places I visited there were only a couple that I'd consider working for.