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In my opinion, it won’t do anyone any good for him to quit “in solidarity with” the fired workers. If he wants the situation to improve, he should remain VP and

by frpzzd 6y ago

In my opinion, it won’t do anyone any good for him to quit “in solidarity with” the fired workers. If he wants the situation to improve, he should remain VP and use his power to help make things better. Now he‘ll probably just be replaced with someone who is less sympathetic to the workers.

sitkack 6y ago
This is a flawed rationalization that keeps the status quo, if your force commits nothing to the work, you move.
jakelazaroff 6y ago
Seems like he tried to. From the post on his website (HN discussion [0]): > At that point I snapped. VPs shouldn’t go publicly rogue, so I escalated through the proper channels and by the book. I’m not at liberty to disclose those discussions, but I made many of the arguments appearing in this essay. I think I made them to the appropriate people. > That done, remaining an Amazon VP would have meant, in effect, signing off on actions I despised. So I resigned. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23065782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23065782
AtlasLion 6y ago
Unless he realized that the company is too far gone.
Traster 6y ago
He was quite clear, he tried to use the leverage he had without quitting, but at some point you have to draw the line and say "I can't change things from the inside, so either I put up with it or I leave". If Amazon starts to lose top talent because they can't treat their employees with respect and dignity hopefully it will force them to change, and if it doesn't, hopefully it'll cause them to fail.
- Frost1x 6y ago
  >If Amazon starts to lose top talent because they can't treat their employees with respect and dignity hopefully it will force them to change, and if it doesn't, hopefully it'll cause them to fail. I personally think that's overly optimistic. Modern corporate culture structures are toxic to society across the board. Some a bit less, some a bit more. The more leverage an entity feels they have (i.e. power), the more toxic they tend to grow against their own workers, consumers, etc. This problem is absolutely not isolated to Amazon, they're just the current poster child of what's toxic and growing in corporate America. This pandemic has put a spotlight on these practices (for the better I argue) and illustrated almost in caricature the divergence between business goals and societies goals. People are far to quick to defend these organizations' behaviors and give them the benefit of the doubt.
  - pbourke 6y ago
    >>If Amazon starts to lose top talent because they can't treat their employees with respect and dignity hopefully it will force them to change, and if it doesn't, hopefully it'll cause them to fail. >I personally think that's overly optimistic. You’d be surprised. There are a few dozen people at the Distinguished Engineer / Senior Principal level at Amazon. They have enormous influence on the organization. If more follow Tim’s example it will be felt across the company.
sincerely 6y ago
Is amazon one of those companies with a hundred VPs or does the title actually mean something?
- wrs 6y ago
  Probably both — Amazon is sufficiently huge to have a hundred “real” VPs.
- achow 6y ago
  He was a Distinguished Engineer. That always means something and are very rare in any tech company.
- QuinnyPig 6y ago
  There are less than 20 Distinguished Engineers in all of Amazon. Today there's one less.
- newobj 6y ago
  Yes, and yes.
13530910 6y ago
He chose so most likely because he did not possess the power you imagined. I am very cautious about (and most of the time opposed to) the narrative "if something/someone is bad, don't complain about/leave it but try to change it and make it better", this narrative stands on a very important yet implicit assumption that this something/someone has minor defects or it is a very important person in your life (like your parents, siblings that no matter what you won't give them up). For a bureaucratic as large as Amazon, not to mention this guy, even a higher level won't be able to change this "culture stuff" in a reasonable interval of time. I am not saying it is completely impossible, but why would he risk his career and a lot of time struggling with this. Life is too short, just fk it and go to a better place or some place at least deserves your efforts to make it better.
dmarchand90 6y ago
He also wrote that he was quite happy with the ethics (at least w.r.t. labor management) in his own division in AWS. It seems he had basically no influence on warehouse labor policies otherwise yes he might have stayed
solidasparagus 6y ago
Tim Bray was a well-known member of Amazon's technical staff. Him quitting will have a substantial impact. It will add weight to what others inside Amazon are pushing for and is a very visible reminder that if Amazon doesn't make some changes, the threat of engineers voting with their feet is a real one (one of the few things that could make Amazon adjust their culture IMO).
Spooky23 6y ago
Holding an individual accountable for fixing a massive enterprise is absurd. Resigning over intolerable positions is an honorable and effective way to confront a situation that is unacceptable. It's an effective way to state your case especially if your position or notoriety is such that it will attract attention.

by frpzzd 6y ago

sitkack 6y ago

This is a flawed rationalization that keeps the status quo, if your force commits nothing to the work, you move.

jakelazaroff 6y ago

Seems like he tried to. From the post on his website (HN discussion [0]): > At that point I snapped. VPs shouldn’t go publicly rogue, so I escalated through the proper channels and by the book. I’m not at liberty to disclose those discussions, but I made many of the arguments appearing in this essay. I think I made them to the appropriate people. > That done, remaining an Amazon VP would have meant, in effect, signing off on actions I despised. So I resigned. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23065782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23065782

AtlasLion 6y ago

Unless he realized that the company is too far gone.

Traster 6y ago

He was quite clear, he tried to use the leverage he had without quitting, but at some point you have to draw the line and say "I can't change things from the inside, so either I put up with it or I leave". If Amazon starts to lose top talent because they can't treat their employees with respect and dignity hopefully it will force them to change, and if it doesn't, hopefully it'll cause them to fail.

Frost1x 6y ago
>If Amazon starts to lose top talent because they can't treat their employees with respect and dignity hopefully it will force them to change, and if it doesn't, hopefully it'll cause them to fail. I personally think that's overly optimistic. Modern corporate culture structures are toxic to society across the board. Some a bit less, some a bit more. The more leverage an entity feels they have (i.e. power), the more toxic they tend to grow against their own workers, consumers, etc. This problem is absolutely not isolated to Amazon, they're just the current poster child of what's toxic and growing in corporate America. This pandemic has put a spotlight on these practices (for the better I argue) and illustrated almost in caricature the divergence between business goals and societies goals. People are far to quick to defend these organizations' behaviors and give them the benefit of the doubt.
- pbourke 6y ago
  >>If Amazon starts to lose top talent because they can't treat their employees with respect and dignity hopefully it will force them to change, and if it doesn't, hopefully it'll cause them to fail. >I personally think that's overly optimistic. You’d be surprised. There are a few dozen people at the Distinguished Engineer / Senior Principal level at Amazon. They have enormous influence on the organization. If more follow Tim’s example it will be felt across the company.

sincerely 6y ago

Is amazon one of those companies with a hundred VPs or does the title actually mean something?

wrs 6y ago
Probably both — Amazon is sufficiently huge to have a hundred “real” VPs.
achow 6y ago
He was a Distinguished Engineer. That always means something and are very rare in any tech company.
QuinnyPig 6y ago
There are less than 20 Distinguished Engineers in all of Amazon. Today there's one less.
newobj 6y ago
Yes, and yes.

13530910 6y ago

He chose so most likely because he did not possess the power you imagined. I am very cautious about (and most of the time opposed to) the narrative "if something/someone is bad, don't complain about/leave it but try to change it and make it better", this narrative stands on a very important yet implicit assumption that this something/someone has minor defects or it is a very important person in your life (like your parents, siblings that no matter what you won't give them up). For a bureaucratic as large as Amazon, not to mention this guy, even a higher level won't be able to change this "culture stuff" in a reasonable interval of time. I am not saying it is completely impossible, but why would he risk his career and a lot of time struggling with this. Life is too short, just fk it and go to a better place or some place at least deserves your efforts to make it better.

dmarchand90 6y ago

He also wrote that he was quite happy with the ethics (at least w.r.t. labor management) in his own division in AWS. It seems he had basically no influence on warehouse labor policies otherwise yes he might have stayed

solidasparagus 6y ago

Tim Bray was a well-known member of Amazon's technical staff. Him quitting will have a substantial impact. It will add weight to what others inside Amazon are pushing for and is a very visible reminder that if Amazon doesn't make some changes, the threat of engineers voting with their feet is a real one (one of the few things that could make Amazon adjust their culture IMO).

Spooky23 6y ago

Holding an individual accountable for fixing a massive enterprise is absurd. Resigning over intolerable positions is an honorable and effective way to confront a situation that is unacceptable. It's an effective way to state your case especially if your position or notoriety is such that it will attract attention.