6 ms·

After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. I love touch ID, but the bar needs to go. USB-C was all about standardizing. I'm stil

by tw04 7y ago

After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. I love touch ID, but the bar needs to go. USB-C was all about standardizing. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, I did love magsafe, but I also love that in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all. And I'll be able to charge my headphones/laptop/phone/random device with a usb-c cable instead of needing 8 of them.

alexggordon 7y ago
The best way I can sell Thunderbolt 3/USB-C to myself is that at Apple's size, they need to be able to sell (to consumers, courts, governments) that they aren't being anti-competitive, so by switching to designs that are open and standardized (Thunderbolt 3 is a spec, not a patent) they can better sell their market dominance as not driven by patents and lawyers.
- tw04 7y ago
  I personally wish Apple would make something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Charge/dp/B07MMKZ8XD/ https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Char... Before any of you see that and go "awesome, exactly what I was looking for!" - I've had several coworkers try various models of those adapters and all have told me they universally suck. Don't waste your money. I trust Apple could do it with quality - frankly I'd be willing to spend $50+ for a reliable version of that.
  - derekp7 7y ago
    I've got another trick to use in place of a Magsafe type cable. Get a cable that is a few feet longer than you need, and attach a couple magnets a few feet apart on the cable. Then click the magnets together. Now you have a cable with a loop that is held closed by the magnets. If someone trips over the cable, the magnets come apart and pull out slack from that loop, instead of pulling the cord on the back of the laptop. Not quite as good as having the cord detach, but it still helps in the majority of minor trip-induced cord pulls (depending on how much clack in the cable you leave bundled between the two magnets).
    - rorykoehler 7y ago
      Are you selling this on Instagram? I just got an ad in my feed for a product that does that
      - derekp7 7y ago
        No, I was thinking of designing and 3D-printing a magnet holder clip -- didn't realize someone else thought of it too. I guess what they say is true, there is no unique new ideas. Is what you saw just a couple clip on magnets (like what I was thinking), or is it a two-piece cord held together by magnets (like the previous comment mentioned)? That would be cool if someone already makes this as a product.
        rorykoehler 7y ago
        The product was a full integrated cable. I won't buy it for that reason as I would 1) like to retrofit my existing cables and 2) be able to choose the cable for the spec of the cable itself. If you made a clip and magnet for retrofitting on existing cables I would buy it if it was offered for a reasonable price.
  - Simon_says 7y ago
    I purchased that. It doesn't suck. Though, I bet Apple could do better if it were integrated.
  - thinkmassive 7y ago
    Anecdotally, I’ve been using one of these (different brand but looks exactly the same) with zero issues between a Thinkpad X1 and a USB-C hub. It’s extremely convenient to be able to attach everything (PD, HDMI, USB) from a single cable that’s literally touchless. The magnet and positioning allows it to automatically connect when I set the laptop on my desk, and to use the laptop elsewhere I just pick it up and carry it away. Much better than a floppy MagSafe that only does power.
  - dcow 7y ago
    If you look into those magnetic things a little bit you'll notice they don't support full thunderbolt data rates. It’s largely physics that’s holding us up, not necessarily Apple. In theory data rates don’t matter strictly for charging but then we’d be back at a different cable/port for charging vs data transfer which would be subpar UX. If nothing else I think it’s why you only see these things aftermarket. I do share your sentiment, though.
  - cweagans 7y ago
    I've been using that exact adapter for several months now and I'm pretty happy with it. Carries power and data for my home setup + I have a separate one just for power for my mobile setup. What were your coworkers' complaints about it?
  - labcomputer 7y ago
    It seems to depend on what you use them for. In my experience, they're good for power. Driving a 2.5k monitor over DisplayPort works reasonably well if the computer is on a solid surface (not your lap). But they don't work well for 4k video (especially with a direct HDMI adapter) or USB 3.0 data.
- lewiscollard 7y ago
  "Market dominance" might overstate the case. Apple makes up for a small percentage of all laptops sold, even if you compare manufacturers (rather than "Apple" vs "Windows machine"). They have a smaller share of laptop sales than HP, Dell, or Lenovo, and very close to the same (depending on when you look) as Acer and ASUS: https://www.statista.com/statistics/818439/global-notebook-computer-shipment-share-by-brands/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/818439/global-notebook-c...
ianbooker 7y ago
The day has come. Last year or so ;) Macbook, Ipad Pro, Cheap phone (Moto G / Pixel 3A) everything on my desk shares just one power brick.
- dralley 7y ago
  There are unfortunately some devices that are nominally USB C but don't actually support the spec properly, like the Nintendo Switch. So some caution is required still.
  - dcow 7y ago
    I thought more recent Switch firmware updates had closed that gap. Could be wrong.. I don't really remember where I read it.
  - derefr 7y ago
    The Switch may or may not freak out in the face of arbitrary USB-C chargers; but it's always supported Apple's USB-C chargers just fine. (I get the sense that Nintendo developed the console by relying on Apple USB-C chargers, until they made their own.)
    - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
      Doesn't work on the dock though.
      - KMnO4 7y ago
        I travel a lot with my Macbook + Switch and I only ever bring my Macbook's USB-C charger. It works fine with the Switch dock.
  - Rels 7y ago
    I'm charging my Switch with random cables just fine? I've heard that the issue was only with third party docks, not with USB-C cables.
  - 7y ago
wtetzner 7y ago
And yet you still can't charge an iPhone with USB-C.
- tw04 7y ago
  I'm REALLY hoping this was the last major revision of iPhone (and airpods) to retain lightning. I won't hold my breath but I hope they finally make the move to usb-c.
  - mikestew 7y ago
    Consolidate on something, at least. Here are the connectors to devices purchased from Apple in the past 12 months: Beats Studio headphones: micro-USB (for serious, Apple?) Beats Powerbeats Pro: Lightning iPad Pro: USB-C iPhone XS (a little more than 12 months ago): Lightning See a pattern there? Yeah, me neither. I might as well have purchased them from separate vendors. And Lightning at this point isn't even a standard within Apple, it's just some jackass proprietary shit you have to buy special cables for.
gwd 7y ago
So now that I'm mostly working from home, I bought a Thunderbolt monitor, and the setup is actually pretty awesome. The montior has both USB-C and USB-A inputs. I've got a physical network cable plugged and my USB-A mechanical keyboard plugged into the monitor; and of course the monitor also acts as a charger for the laptop. Boom -- instant docking station: Plugging in a single standard cable gives me power, ethernet, monitor, and external keyboard. Obviously you have to carry around a USB-C adapter when actually traveling, but if you get a good all-in-one adapter that does ethernet, HDMI, and USB-A, I haven't found it too disruptive. Hopefully the USB-C form factor will take over and then stay as long as USB-A has.
- Heliosmaster 7y ago
  Which monitor?
  - gwd 7y ago
    There were two I was looking at with the same LCD component, but just different configuration of controls & placement of external USB. The one I ended up going with was LG32UL950 because I found a place that had a $150 discount; now forgotten the other brand/model. The screen is so huge I've had to spend some time figuring out how to use the space effectively, but overall I'm pretty happy.
    - Paul-ish 7y ago
      Interesting, I don't see an ethernet port. Do you use a USB adapter?
      - gwd 7y ago
        Er, yes -- I had written that it was a USB ethernet dongle plugged into the monitor, but I seem to have edited that out.
  - electrum 7y ago
    I've used the Dell U3219Q for over a year for this purpose. Importantly, the monitor provides 90W of power, which is needed for the larger laptops, especially when running power intensive tasks. Most USB-C monitors do not provide enough power.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
"After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. " With BetterTouch Tool I have set it up so it's halfway usable. Still worse than the old function buttons though.
- sutterbomb 7y ago
  what are the adjustments you made with bettertouchtool?
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    I have volume and display brightness buttons, also a mute button and play/pause. They are permanent and don’t switch with the application. Pretty much like it was before the Touchbar.... I tried to use the Touchbar for a while without customization but I never could get the hang of it. It just seems useless.
    - baggy_trough 7y ago
      Is that different from System Preferences > Keyboard > Touch Bar shows Expanded Control Strip?
      - Ididntdothis 7y ago
        You have more options. But it has been a while since I set this up so I don’t remember exactly.
cHaOs667 7y ago
I HATE the touch bar. I simply H A T E it. I hate it so much that I started to carry an TKL keyboard all the time with me just to avoid using this piece of sh*t touch bar and internal keyboard (MBP 2017). As a developer it is crucial that I can use my keyboard without any looks but as there is no way to tell which function key you press on the touch bar the bar itself is completely useless for me. Beside the butterfly switches one of the worst things Apple has ever introduced to their computers.
- RedneckBob 7y ago
  I just purged Apple from my life largely because the touchbar continues to live on. Love my new Lenovo, btw. As a workaround for the touchbar that worked pretty well, I bought a silicon keyboard protector for the Apple Magic Keyboard, cut out the area for the function keys, and used hot glue to glue it over the touch bar. Prevented the touchbar from activating at the slightest touch and did return some of the feel of actually having a row of keys. Plus, the hot glue causes no damage to the aluminum and does hold for a good period of time. Turn this into a product people could purchase and you'd become rich :)
  - fluffything 7y ago
    My GF has a 2019 macbook pro and is using a silicon keyboard protector to avoid the touchbar as well. I want to upgrade my macbook, but I've laughed so often at its 30$ fix for its 2000$ laptop that I just can't update to a macbook with touchbar with a straight face anymore.
    - danieldk 7y ago
      I hate the Touch Bar as well, and I am very happy with my 2020 Air with a fixed keyboard and no Touch Bar. But can't you just remove the icons from the Touch Bar or set it to display the Fn keys? https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/02/27/customizing-touch-bar-function-keys-media-controls/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/02/27/customizing-touch-b...
      - 7y ago
bonestamp2 7y ago
> I also love that in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all True, although they could have done what many of the pc laptop makers have done. They still provide their proprietary charger with many models (ie. ThinkPad connector), but the USB-C port can also be used to charge the computer if you one already or want to pony up for a USB-C charger. For example, I've used my macbook pro charger to charge my last couple PC laptops too (ThinkPad and Acer). Like you said, then I only need one charger on my desk. I assume these manufacturer's do this because their own charger, especially the barrel chargers that some manufacturers use, are cheaper than USB-C chargers/cables. In Apple's case, they could have kept the magsafe connector because it's a better connector. But, I assume it was lost to cost savings or aesthetics.
deepGem 7y ago
My gripe with the touch bar is that for every IDE you have to customise it to see the function keys by default. It's so damn annoying. Why can't the default layout be just the Fn keys ?
- ethbro 7y ago
  > Why can't the default layout be just the Fn keys ? Because then no software would have used it. (Said ironically)
- dankohn1 7y ago
  "Settings: Keyboard: Touch Bar shows" lets you permanently set to F keys or (my preference) the Extended Control Strip.
- Ndymium 7y ago
  You can change it to show the F-keys by default in macOS settings. Then by pressing Fn you can view the "special" mode.
- dewey 7y ago
  Because 95% of the people don't use them and for them having an emoji picker, a volume, brightness control is more useful. The small group of people who actively use the Fn keys can just enable this checkbox at the settings.
  - blhack 7y ago
    Someday they should make a pro model for the 5% of people who don't care about emoji pickers.
    - dewey 7y ago
      I wouldn't hold my breath for a big mainstream corporation to address the needs of 5% of their market share.
  - cma 7y ago
    And lose touch typing
baggy_trough 7y ago
The touch bar is really, really awful. I'd definitely pay more to get rid of it. - It's incredibly sensitive, so a slightly misplaced touch on the number row sometimes results in a wild function key that snaps me out of whatever I'm doing (launches iTunes, goes to Spaces, adjusts brightness). - It's distracting. It's either a lighted row of fake buttons, or a constantly changing offering of useless app shortcuts. It turns on and off (again, distracting). - The UX of using it as function keys is in every way worse than a physical button. You can't tell if the click registered by feel. Sometimes it even seems like it reacts to a click but then nothing happens.
makecheck 7y ago
I’ve found that the Touch Bar’s fundamental flaw is that it doesn’t handle unintended touches well (which sadly affects multiple Apple technologies, including my Watch and even the trackpad occasionally), and that is directly related to the fact that it has no raised elements. Furthermore, one of its main added features — the ability to do gestures that keys can’t do — just isn’t valuable. I haven’t seen a single example of something that was easier to do on the Touch Bar when I have a giant screen and trackpad/mouse already. I don’t need micro-scrubber interfaces or color sliders or Emoji bars, and the volume/brightness sliders are imprecise. Despite customizing the bar with BetterTouchTool, including “vibrate” feedback, I invariably found I had to remove more and more things from the bar over time. Any functions in the central part of the bar were invariably triggering by accident. It was just too distracting to have things randomly happening when my finger slid onto something that doesn’t feel like an active panel. Now, therefore, I have a Touch Bar with just a few things: a battery status indicator on the left end (near the thankfully-now-real Esc key), and the brightness/volume/mute on the right (near the wonderful Touch ID). And that’s it. It is literally 70% empty space now. This is ridiculous for something as complex and expense-adding as the Touch Bar. A complete failure of a technology.
- dkdbejwi383 7y ago
  > I’ve found that the Touch Bar’s fundamental flaw is that it doesn’t handle unintended touches well (which sadly affects multiple Apple technologies, including my Watch and even the trackpad occasionally), and that is directly related to the fact that it has no raised elements. It's the worst. I constantly hit mute instesd of backspace. Changing the volume or brightness is a complete pain now. It used to be just tap the key a couple of times and that was it. I would do it as a reflex without interrupting the work I was doing. Now I have to look at where the 'button' is, and then tap and slide. Completely awful.
  - hilti 7y ago
    It's easy to change this behaviour Open the System Preferences app. Select the Keyboard option (third row, sixth item) On the first tab (also called Keyboard), locate the dropdown for "Touch Bar shows" and choose "Expanded Control Strip".
markandrewj 7y ago
The Asus Zenbook, and the Asus Zenbook Duo, seem to expand on the idea in a more useful way. I am a bit surprised we didn't see the Macbook Pro go to a similar design (I.E. using the track pad as a display, or moving the track pad and adding a second display).
tobyhinloopen 7y ago
Same here: I love the Touch ID but the touch bar is awful. The bar always moves around and the buttons I want are always at a different spot or just not there.
kebman 7y ago
Magsafe or no Mac. Also touch bar needs to go. I mean, regardless of usability, just look at that eyesore! It used to be that Macs were for professionals. Now it's for showoffs only. Sorry. I really used to love Macs...
voisin 7y ago
I wonder why they haven’t replaced touchID with FaceID on MacBooks. There’s a camera and I find FaceID to be so much more seamless.
- abhorrence 7y ago
  I suspect it's because of the target thickness the lid -- and the camera is located in the part that tapers.
  - voisin 7y ago
    Does the sensor need to be in the same place as the camera or could it be at the bottom of the screen?
- rstupek 7y ago
  FaceID requires more than a camera, there's an additional sensor involved
js2 7y ago
> in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all I predict a future with USB-D that's incompatible with USB-C and on and on...
- ppeetteerr 7y ago
  Everything is going wireless. There are still some items that require plugging in but headphones, keyboards and mice, even hard drives, are all going wireless.
warent 7y ago
I don't understand why people hate the touch bar or the keyboard. It's imperfect yes but the entire MBP keyboard+trackpad layout enables me to be insanely productive. The only reason I don't buy something like a Mac Mini is because I can't get a peripheral keyboard that is the same as the one on the MBP. The only thing I wish it had was a number pad. Maybe you're just not realizing its potential. I definitely recommend checking out some cool extensions to the touch bar such as Pock https://pock.dev/ https://pock.dev/
- S_A_P 7y ago
  The Touchbar is terrible for Visual Studio Debugging. I have to take my eyes off the screen and cant rest my finger on F10 to step through code. That is ANTI productive. One of the reasons I spring for a macbook is so I can run MacOS, Windows or Linux on solid hardware. The touchbar is fine for things like Logic ProX or some other non development tool, but I need permanent function keys to work in Windows/Visual Studio. Thats a large part of what I do. IMO the touch bar is a GREAT idea if you also have physical function keys on the keyboard.
- Lio 7y ago
  I guess a large part is that you can't use it without looking at it. If you're a touch typist you want to be able to do everything on the computer without thinking or moving your hands from the home row.
- cletus 7y ago
  So there are a couple of glaring problems: 1. The keyboard. Ugh. The keyboard was ostensibly changed to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of an MBP. 0.5mm. The old chiclet keyboard was fine. The new one is basically worse in every way. It's louder, feels crappier to type on, has a high failure rate (as witnessed by Apple's free repair program) and is otherwise expensive to replace. There is absolutely nothing redeeming about the keyboard; and 2. The touch bar. This was is more mixed. The big problem is you don't have an option for not having it and Apple's reason for adding it is simply to raise the ASP (average selling price) of Mac SKUs. That's it. The old Macbook Air was too successful. Many people object to it because you lost a row of function keys with tactile feedback (ie physical key). Some really objected to the loss of a physical Escape button. Probably vim users. I agree with you that Touch ID is great. I sure wish the latest iPhones had it (you could put a sensor on the back if you didn't want to lose the screen real estate). Face ID is absolutely atrocious. Anyway, the problem here is that basically Johnny Ive went insane, chasing thinness to the extreme. Design is the art of compromise (as they say) and no compromising on thinness led to shitty products (eg the 12" Macbook). There are many people here (myself included) that for years simply wanted a 13" Macbook Air with an upgraded screen (as close to edgeless as possible and higher res) and more memory. That's it. We waited for years. We got the shitty 12" Macbook instead. It's incredibly frustrating to be so close to perfection but to take a giant step backwards instead.
cletus 7y ago
> USB-C was all about standardizing. USB-C is all about having a thinner connector and giving the appearance of standardizing. Previously if the cable fit, it worked. There were just a bunch of different cables but that had largely settled down to USB-A cables to like 2 maybe 3 connectors on the other end. Now we have cables that have the same connector on each end but do vastly different things and there's no clue as to what. - Does it carry data or just power? - Does it carry a video signal? - How much data can it carry? - How much power can it charge? A USB-C cable that does everything is limited to about 30cm (1 foot) in length, give or take. I know because I use them to connect to a USB-C dock. If I wanted a longer cable to connect to something else, I could. I'd just have to remember not to use it for the dock. How is this a good user experience?
- dsego 7y ago
  It's also not as sturdy. I managed to break one of my ports on a 2016 macbook. Now I try to never let the cable hang from the port.
- molszanski 7y ago
  USB-C is shit. Apple lightning physical connector is still lightyears ahead in reliability, maintenance (dust) and physical size. USB-3 standard is even a bigger mess. This whole USB 3.2 Gen 2 x 2 is the biggest clusterfuck in the history of naming things.
  - prewett 7y ago
    Somewhere I read that USB-C's cable design was informed by Apple's experience with thee lightning connector. In particular, one of the changes is that the lightning connector has the springs on the hardware side, which means that if the springs break, you have a major headache. USB-C puts the springs in the connector, so if the springs break, you just buy a new cable. That seems like a pretty big improvement, to me.
    - molszanski 7y ago
      Anything can brake. It is all about probabilities, potential failures etc. Spring failure is less probable than breaking a male part of a connector. If a spring breaks, you have a second one. If both break, you keep the charging functionality. You break the male connector. Game Over.
Razengan 7y ago
I love the Touch Bar. I have almost never used the F# keys in macOS apps, in a whole decade now.
hadlock 7y ago
I decided to become an early adopter of "USB-C for everything" in ~2017 and do not regret it. Between my laptops (work + personal), tablet, phone, VR, game console, headphones it is really nice to have a single 65w wall wart and a single cable that works for everything and only need to bring one charger. The one holdout still is an e-ink e-reader, the Kindle Oasis's top review is a one-star review talking about lack of USB-C. I might switch to an apple-based consumer tablet when they put USB-C on them. The pro tablet models already have USB-C but I don't need that kind of power. USB-C is really nice. There are some complaints about cables but if you buy brand name cables (anker, cable matters, etc) they seem to last forever and don't have the problems the tech blogs speculate about. I think twice in five years am I glad I had the magsafe adapter but I'm happy to live without it to avoid carting around a proprietary charger all the time. We lost my wife's magsafe charger while traveling and found out that those cannot be bought for any price when in rural areas, especially outside of first-world countries. Every town has a shop that sells/services USB-C phones/tablets/laptops though.
- pilsetnieks 7y ago
  USB-C would take off like wildfire if there actually existed any proper USB-C hubs - not what's currently called a "USB-C hub" which is more like a breakout box which at best replicates the single USB-C port it takes up and adds a bunch of legacy ports; I'm talking about a proper hub that plugs into a single port and turns it into multiple ports, like those dirt cheap old USB-A hubs. You literally cannot move to an all-USB-C existence because with rare exceptions 1 port = 1 device.
  - labcomputer 7y ago
    As I've written before on HN: A hub with multiple USB-C downstream ports cannot exist with any sort of reasonable UX. The C port supports multiple "alternate modes," which remap USB-data pins to other functions (like DisplayPort, HDMI, Thunderbolt, analog audio, etc.) The various alternate modes are not simply transporting display/audio/Thunderbolt data over a USB channel. It's the difference between packet switching and circuit switching. Plugging in, for example, an HDMI adapter to one downstream port affects what devices can be plugged in to other downstream ports. A true HDMI adapter would revert all other downstream ports to USB 2.0. But... an HDMI adapter that's really a DisplayPort with internal DP -> HDMI converter can potentially allow USB 3.0 on the other downstream ports (or, potentially, ONE other port with DP and the rest with USB 2.0). Either way, plugging in the HDMI adapter means your USB-C headphones might stop working (depending on whether they are analog or have an internal DAC). How are users expected to understand that they need a certain type of USB-C headphones and a certain type of HDMI adapter in order for both to work at the same time?
_jal 7y ago
I (a) remapped escape and (b) taped a piece of cardboard over everything except the fingerprint scanner, and the touch bar works much better.
erik_seaberg 7y ago
A standard data cable for laptops is fine I guess, but I want a distinct power-only cable that isn't complicated enough to enable malware attacks. And battery swaps. And a pony.

by tw04 7y ago

alexggordon 7y ago

The best way I can sell Thunderbolt 3/USB-C to myself is that at Apple's size, they need to be able to sell (to consumers, courts, governments) that they aren't being anti-competitive, so by switching to designs that are open and standardized (Thunderbolt 3 is a spec, not a patent) they can better sell their market dominance as not driven by patents and lawyers.

tw04 7y ago
I personally wish Apple would make something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Charge/dp/B07MMKZ8XD/ https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Char... Before any of you see that and go "awesome, exactly what I was looking for!" - I've had several coworkers try various models of those adapters and all have told me they universally suck. Don't waste your money. I trust Apple could do it with quality - frankly I'd be willing to spend $50+ for a reliable version of that.
- derekp7 7y ago
  I've got another trick to use in place of a Magsafe type cable. Get a cable that is a few feet longer than you need, and attach a couple magnets a few feet apart on the cable. Then click the magnets together. Now you have a cable with a loop that is held closed by the magnets. If someone trips over the cable, the magnets come apart and pull out slack from that loop, instead of pulling the cord on the back of the laptop. Not quite as good as having the cord detach, but it still helps in the majority of minor trip-induced cord pulls (depending on how much clack in the cable you leave bundled between the two magnets).
  - rorykoehler 7y ago
    Are you selling this on Instagram? I just got an ad in my feed for a product that does that
    - derekp7 7y ago
      No, I was thinking of designing and 3D-printing a magnet holder clip -- didn't realize someone else thought of it too. I guess what they say is true, there is no unique new ideas. Is what you saw just a couple clip on magnets (like what I was thinking), or is it a two-piece cord held together by magnets (like the previous comment mentioned)? That would be cool if someone already makes this as a product.
      - rorykoehler 7y ago
        The product was a full integrated cable. I won't buy it for that reason as I would 1) like to retrofit my existing cables and 2) be able to choose the cable for the spec of the cable itself. If you made a clip and magnet for retrofitting on existing cables I would buy it if it was offered for a reasonable price.
- Simon_says 7y ago
  I purchased that. It doesn't suck. Though, I bet Apple could do better if it were integrated.
- thinkmassive 7y ago
  Anecdotally, I’ve been using one of these (different brand but looks exactly the same) with zero issues between a Thinkpad X1 and a USB-C hub. It’s extremely convenient to be able to attach everything (PD, HDMI, USB) from a single cable that’s literally touchless. The magnet and positioning allows it to automatically connect when I set the laptop on my desk, and to use the laptop elsewhere I just pick it up and carry it away. Much better than a floppy MagSafe that only does power.
- dcow 7y ago
  If you look into those magnetic things a little bit you'll notice they don't support full thunderbolt data rates. It’s largely physics that’s holding us up, not necessarily Apple. In theory data rates don’t matter strictly for charging but then we’d be back at a different cable/port for charging vs data transfer which would be subpar UX. If nothing else I think it’s why you only see these things aftermarket. I do share your sentiment, though.
- cweagans 7y ago
  I've been using that exact adapter for several months now and I'm pretty happy with it. Carries power and data for my home setup + I have a separate one just for power for my mobile setup. What were your coworkers' complaints about it?
- labcomputer 7y ago
  It seems to depend on what you use them for. In my experience, they're good for power. Driving a 2.5k monitor over DisplayPort works reasonably well if the computer is on a solid surface (not your lap). But they don't work well for 4k video (especially with a direct HDMI adapter) or USB 3.0 data.
lewiscollard 7y ago
"Market dominance" might overstate the case. Apple makes up for a small percentage of all laptops sold, even if you compare manufacturers (rather than "Apple" vs "Windows machine"). They have a smaller share of laptop sales than HP, Dell, or Lenovo, and very close to the same (depending on when you look) as Acer and ASUS: https://www.statista.com/statistics/818439/global-notebook-computer-shipment-share-by-brands/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/818439/global-notebook-c...

ianbooker 7y ago

The day has come. Last year or so ;) Macbook, Ipad Pro, Cheap phone (Moto G / Pixel 3A) everything on my desk shares just one power brick.

dralley 7y ago
There are unfortunately some devices that are nominally USB C but don't actually support the spec properly, like the Nintendo Switch. So some caution is required still.
- dcow 7y ago
  I thought more recent Switch firmware updates had closed that gap. Could be wrong.. I don't really remember where I read it.
- derefr 7y ago
  The Switch may or may not freak out in the face of arbitrary USB-C chargers; but it's always supported Apple's USB-C chargers just fine. (I get the sense that Nintendo developed the console by relying on Apple USB-C chargers, until they made their own.)
  - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
    Doesn't work on the dock though.
    - KMnO4 7y ago
      I travel a lot with my Macbook + Switch and I only ever bring my Macbook's USB-C charger. It works fine with the Switch dock.
- Rels 7y ago
  I'm charging my Switch with random cables just fine? I've heard that the issue was only with third party docks, not with USB-C cables.
- 7y ago

wtetzner 7y ago

And yet you still can't charge an iPhone with USB-C.

tw04 7y ago
I'm REALLY hoping this was the last major revision of iPhone (and airpods) to retain lightning. I won't hold my breath but I hope they finally make the move to usb-c.
- mikestew 7y ago
  Consolidate on something, at least. Here are the connectors to devices purchased from Apple in the past 12 months: Beats Studio headphones: micro-USB (for serious, Apple?) Beats Powerbeats Pro: Lightning iPad Pro: USB-C iPhone XS (a little more than 12 months ago): Lightning See a pattern there? Yeah, me neither. I might as well have purchased them from separate vendors. And Lightning at this point isn't even a standard within Apple, it's just some jackass proprietary shit you have to buy special cables for.

gwd 7y ago

So now that I'm mostly working from home, I bought a Thunderbolt monitor, and the setup is actually pretty awesome. The montior has both USB-C and USB-A inputs. I've got a physical network cable plugged and my USB-A mechanical keyboard plugged into the monitor; and of course the monitor also acts as a charger for the laptop. Boom -- instant docking station: Plugging in a single standard cable gives me power, ethernet, monitor, and external keyboard. Obviously you have to carry around a USB-C adapter when actually traveling, but if you get a good all-in-one adapter that does ethernet, HDMI, and USB-A, I haven't found it too disruptive. Hopefully the USB-C form factor will take over and then stay as long as USB-A has.

Heliosmaster 7y ago
Which monitor?
- gwd 7y ago
  There were two I was looking at with the same LCD component, but just different configuration of controls & placement of external USB. The one I ended up going with was LG32UL950 because I found a place that had a $150 discount; now forgotten the other brand/model. The screen is so huge I've had to spend some time figuring out how to use the space effectively, but overall I'm pretty happy.
  - Paul-ish 7y ago
    Interesting, I don't see an ethernet port. Do you use a USB adapter?
    - gwd 7y ago
      Er, yes -- I had written that it was a USB ethernet dongle plugged into the monitor, but I seem to have edited that out.
- electrum 7y ago
  I've used the Dell U3219Q for over a year for this purpose. Importantly, the monitor provides 90W of power, which is needed for the larger laptops, especially when running power intensive tasks. Most USB-C monitors do not provide enough power.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

"After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. " With BetterTouch Tool I have set it up so it's halfway usable. Still worse than the old function buttons though.

sutterbomb 7y ago
what are the adjustments you made with bettertouchtool?
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I have volume and display brightness buttons, also a mute button and play/pause. They are permanent and don’t switch with the application. Pretty much like it was before the Touchbar.... I tried to use the Touchbar for a while without customization but I never could get the hang of it. It just seems useless.
  - baggy_trough 7y ago
    Is that different from System Preferences > Keyboard > Touch Bar shows Expanded Control Strip?
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      You have more options. But it has been a while since I set this up so I don’t remember exactly.

cHaOs667 7y ago

I HATE the touch bar. I simply H A T E it. I hate it so much that I started to carry an TKL keyboard all the time with me just to avoid using this piece of sh*t touch bar and internal keyboard (MBP 2017). As a developer it is crucial that I can use my keyboard without any looks but as there is no way to tell which function key you press on the touch bar the bar itself is completely useless for me. Beside the butterfly switches one of the worst things Apple has ever introduced to their computers.

RedneckBob 7y ago
I just purged Apple from my life largely because the touchbar continues to live on. Love my new Lenovo, btw. As a workaround for the touchbar that worked pretty well, I bought a silicon keyboard protector for the Apple Magic Keyboard, cut out the area for the function keys, and used hot glue to glue it over the touch bar. Prevented the touchbar from activating at the slightest touch and did return some of the feel of actually having a row of keys. Plus, the hot glue causes no damage to the aluminum and does hold for a good period of time. Turn this into a product people could purchase and you'd become rich :)
- fluffything 7y ago
  My GF has a 2019 macbook pro and is using a silicon keyboard protector to avoid the touchbar as well. I want to upgrade my macbook, but I've laughed so often at its 30$ fix for its 2000$ laptop that I just can't update to a macbook with touchbar with a straight face anymore.
  - danieldk 7y ago
    I hate the Touch Bar as well, and I am very happy with my 2020 Air with a fixed keyboard and no Touch Bar. But can't you just remove the icons from the Touch Bar or set it to display the Fn keys? https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/02/27/customizing-touch-bar-function-keys-media-controls/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/02/27/customizing-touch-b...
    - 7y ago

bonestamp2 7y ago

> I also love that in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all True, although they could have done what many of the pc laptop makers have done. They still provide their proprietary charger with many models (ie. ThinkPad connector), but the USB-C port can also be used to charge the computer if you one already or want to pony up for a USB-C charger. For example, I've used my macbook pro charger to charge my last couple PC laptops too (ThinkPad and Acer). Like you said, then I only need one charger on my desk. I assume these manufacturer's do this because their own charger, especially the barrel chargers that some manufacturers use, are cheaper than USB-C chargers/cables. In Apple's case, they could have kept the magsafe connector because it's a better connector. But, I assume it was lost to cost savings or aesthetics.

deepGem 7y ago

My gripe with the touch bar is that for every IDE you have to customise it to see the function keys by default. It's so damn annoying. Why can't the default layout be just the Fn keys ?

ethbro 7y ago
> Why can't the default layout be just the Fn keys ? Because then no software would have used it. (Said ironically)
dankohn1 7y ago
"Settings: Keyboard: Touch Bar shows" lets you permanently set to F keys or (my preference) the Extended Control Strip.
Ndymium 7y ago
You can change it to show the F-keys by default in macOS settings. Then by pressing Fn you can view the "special" mode.
dewey 7y ago
Because 95% of the people don't use them and for them having an emoji picker, a volume, brightness control is more useful. The small group of people who actively use the Fn keys can just enable this checkbox at the settings.
- blhack 7y ago
  Someday they should make a pro model for the 5% of people who don't care about emoji pickers.
  - dewey 7y ago
    I wouldn't hold my breath for a big mainstream corporation to address the needs of 5% of their market share.
- cma 7y ago
  And lose touch typing

baggy_trough 7y ago

The touch bar is really, really awful. I'd definitely pay more to get rid of it. - It's incredibly sensitive, so a slightly misplaced touch on the number row sometimes results in a wild function key that snaps me out of whatever I'm doing (launches iTunes, goes to Spaces, adjusts brightness). - It's distracting. It's either a lighted row of fake buttons, or a constantly changing offering of useless app shortcuts. It turns on and off (again, distracting). - The UX of using it as function keys is in every way worse than a physical button. You can't tell if the click registered by feel. Sometimes it even seems like it reacts to a click but then nothing happens.

makecheck 7y ago

I’ve found that the Touch Bar’s fundamental flaw is that it doesn’t handle unintended touches well (which sadly affects multiple Apple technologies, including my Watch and even the trackpad occasionally), and that is directly related to the fact that it has no raised elements. Furthermore, one of its main added features — the ability to do gestures that keys can’t do — just isn’t valuable. I haven’t seen a single example of something that was easier to do on the Touch Bar when I have a giant screen and trackpad/mouse already. I don’t need micro-scrubber interfaces or color sliders or Emoji bars, and the volume/brightness sliders are imprecise. Despite customizing the bar with BetterTouchTool, including “vibrate” feedback, I invariably found I had to remove more and more things from the bar over time. Any functions in the central part of the bar were invariably triggering by accident. It was just too distracting to have things randomly happening when my finger slid onto something that doesn’t feel like an active panel. Now, therefore, I have a Touch Bar with just a few things: a battery status indicator on the left end (near the thankfully-now-real Esc key), and the brightness/volume/mute on the right (near the wonderful Touch ID). And that’s it. It is literally 70% empty space now. This is ridiculous for something as complex and expense-adding as the Touch Bar. A complete failure of a technology.

dkdbejwi383 7y ago
> I’ve found that the Touch Bar’s fundamental flaw is that it doesn’t handle unintended touches well (which sadly affects multiple Apple technologies, including my Watch and even the trackpad occasionally), and that is directly related to the fact that it has no raised elements. It's the worst. I constantly hit mute instesd of backspace. Changing the volume or brightness is a complete pain now. It used to be just tap the key a couple of times and that was it. I would do it as a reflex without interrupting the work I was doing. Now I have to look at where the 'button' is, and then tap and slide. Completely awful.
- hilti 7y ago
  It's easy to change this behaviour Open the System Preferences app. Select the Keyboard option (third row, sixth item) On the first tab (also called Keyboard), locate the dropdown for "Touch Bar shows" and choose "Expanded Control Strip".

markandrewj 7y ago

The Asus Zenbook, and the Asus Zenbook Duo, seem to expand on the idea in a more useful way. I am a bit surprised we didn't see the Macbook Pro go to a similar design (I.E. using the track pad as a display, or moving the track pad and adding a second display).

tobyhinloopen 7y ago

Same here: I love the Touch ID but the touch bar is awful. The bar always moves around and the buttons I want are always at a different spot or just not there.

kebman 7y ago

Magsafe or no Mac. Also touch bar needs to go. I mean, regardless of usability, just look at that eyesore! It used to be that Macs were for professionals. Now it's for showoffs only. Sorry. I really used to love Macs...

voisin 7y ago

I wonder why they haven’t replaced touchID with FaceID on MacBooks. There’s a camera and I find FaceID to be so much more seamless.

abhorrence 7y ago
I suspect it's because of the target thickness the lid -- and the camera is located in the part that tapers.
- voisin 7y ago
  Does the sensor need to be in the same place as the camera or could it be at the bottom of the screen?
rstupek 7y ago
FaceID requires more than a camera, there's an additional sensor involved

js2 7y ago

> in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all I predict a future with USB-D that's incompatible with USB-C and on and on...

ppeetteerr 7y ago
Everything is going wireless. There are still some items that require plugging in but headphones, keyboards and mice, even hard drives, are all going wireless.

warent 7y ago

I don't understand why people hate the touch bar or the keyboard. It's imperfect yes but the entire MBP keyboard+trackpad layout enables me to be insanely productive. The only reason I don't buy something like a Mac Mini is because I can't get a peripheral keyboard that is the same as the one on the MBP. The only thing I wish it had was a number pad. Maybe you're just not realizing its potential. I definitely recommend checking out some cool extensions to the touch bar such as Pock https://pock.dev/ https://pock.dev/

S_A_P 7y ago
The Touchbar is terrible for Visual Studio Debugging. I have to take my eyes off the screen and cant rest my finger on F10 to step through code. That is ANTI productive. One of the reasons I spring for a macbook is so I can run MacOS, Windows or Linux on solid hardware. The touchbar is fine for things like Logic ProX or some other non development tool, but I need permanent function keys to work in Windows/Visual Studio. Thats a large part of what I do. IMO the touch bar is a GREAT idea if you also have physical function keys on the keyboard.
Lio 7y ago
I guess a large part is that you can't use it without looking at it. If you're a touch typist you want to be able to do everything on the computer without thinking or moving your hands from the home row.
cletus 7y ago
So there are a couple of glaring problems: 1. The keyboard. Ugh. The keyboard was ostensibly changed to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of an MBP. 0.5mm. The old chiclet keyboard was fine. The new one is basically worse in every way. It's louder, feels crappier to type on, has a high failure rate (as witnessed by Apple's free repair program) and is otherwise expensive to replace. There is absolutely nothing redeeming about the keyboard; and 2. The touch bar. This was is more mixed. The big problem is you don't have an option for not having it and Apple's reason for adding it is simply to raise the ASP (average selling price) of Mac SKUs. That's it. The old Macbook Air was too successful. Many people object to it because you lost a row of function keys with tactile feedback (ie physical key). Some really objected to the loss of a physical Escape button. Probably vim users. I agree with you that Touch ID is great. I sure wish the latest iPhones had it (you could put a sensor on the back if you didn't want to lose the screen real estate). Face ID is absolutely atrocious. Anyway, the problem here is that basically Johnny Ive went insane, chasing thinness to the extreme. Design is the art of compromise (as they say) and no compromising on thinness led to shitty products (eg the 12" Macbook). There are many people here (myself included) that for years simply wanted a 13" Macbook Air with an upgraded screen (as close to edgeless as possible and higher res) and more memory. That's it. We waited for years. We got the shitty 12" Macbook instead. It's incredibly frustrating to be so close to perfection but to take a giant step backwards instead.

cletus 7y ago

> USB-C was all about standardizing. USB-C is all about having a thinner connector and giving the appearance of standardizing. Previously if the cable fit, it worked. There were just a bunch of different cables but that had largely settled down to USB-A cables to like 2 maybe 3 connectors on the other end. Now we have cables that have the same connector on each end but do vastly different things and there's no clue as to what. - Does it carry data or just power? - Does it carry a video signal? - How much data can it carry? - How much power can it charge? A USB-C cable that does everything is limited to about 30cm (1 foot) in length, give or take. I know because I use them to connect to a USB-C dock. If I wanted a longer cable to connect to something else, I could. I'd just have to remember not to use it for the dock. How is this a good user experience?

dsego 7y ago
It's also not as sturdy. I managed to break one of my ports on a 2016 macbook. Now I try to never let the cable hang from the port.
molszanski 7y ago
USB-C is shit. Apple lightning physical connector is still lightyears ahead in reliability, maintenance (dust) and physical size. USB-3 standard is even a bigger mess. This whole USB 3.2 Gen 2 x 2 is the biggest clusterfuck in the history of naming things.
- prewett 7y ago
  Somewhere I read that USB-C's cable design was informed by Apple's experience with thee lightning connector. In particular, one of the changes is that the lightning connector has the springs on the hardware side, which means that if the springs break, you have a major headache. USB-C puts the springs in the connector, so if the springs break, you just buy a new cable. That seems like a pretty big improvement, to me.
  - molszanski 7y ago
    Anything can brake. It is all about probabilities, potential failures etc. Spring failure is less probable than breaking a male part of a connector. If a spring breaks, you have a second one. If both break, you keep the charging functionality. You break the male connector. Game Over.

Razengan 7y ago

I love the Touch Bar. I have almost never used the F# keys in macOS apps, in a whole decade now.

hadlock 7y ago

I decided to become an early adopter of "USB-C for everything" in ~2017 and do not regret it. Between my laptops (work + personal), tablet, phone, VR, game console, headphones it is really nice to have a single 65w wall wart and a single cable that works for everything and only need to bring one charger. The one holdout still is an e-ink e-reader, the Kindle Oasis's top review is a one-star review talking about lack of USB-C. I might switch to an apple-based consumer tablet when they put USB-C on them. The pro tablet models already have USB-C but I don't need that kind of power. USB-C is really nice. There are some complaints about cables but if you buy brand name cables (anker, cable matters, etc) they seem to last forever and don't have the problems the tech blogs speculate about. I think twice in five years am I glad I had the magsafe adapter but I'm happy to live without it to avoid carting around a proprietary charger all the time. We lost my wife's magsafe charger while traveling and found out that those cannot be bought for any price when in rural areas, especially outside of first-world countries. Every town has a shop that sells/services USB-C phones/tablets/laptops though.

pilsetnieks 7y ago
USB-C would take off like wildfire if there actually existed any proper USB-C hubs - not what's currently called a "USB-C hub" which is more like a breakout box which at best replicates the single USB-C port it takes up and adds a bunch of legacy ports; I'm talking about a proper hub that plugs into a single port and turns it into multiple ports, like those dirt cheap old USB-A hubs. You literally cannot move to an all-USB-C existence because with rare exceptions 1 port = 1 device.
- labcomputer 7y ago
  As I've written before on HN: A hub with multiple USB-C downstream ports cannot exist with any sort of reasonable UX. The C port supports multiple "alternate modes," which remap USB-data pins to other functions (like DisplayPort, HDMI, Thunderbolt, analog audio, etc.) The various alternate modes are not simply transporting display/audio/Thunderbolt data over a USB channel. It's the difference between packet switching and circuit switching. Plugging in, for example, an HDMI adapter to one downstream port affects what devices can be plugged in to other downstream ports. A true HDMI adapter would revert all other downstream ports to USB 2.0. But... an HDMI adapter that's really a DisplayPort with internal DP -> HDMI converter can potentially allow USB 3.0 on the other downstream ports (or, potentially, ONE other port with DP and the rest with USB 2.0). Either way, plugging in the HDMI adapter means your USB-C headphones might stop working (depending on whether they are analog or have an internal DAC). How are users expected to understand that they need a certain type of USB-C headphones and a certain type of HDMI adapter in order for both to work at the same time?

_jal 7y ago

I (a) remapped escape and (b) taped a piece of cardboard over everything except the fingerprint scanner, and the touch bar works much better.

erik_seaberg 7y ago

A standard data cable for laptops is fine I guess, but I want a distinct power-only cable that isn't complicated enough to enable malware attacks. And battery swaps. And a pony.