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This is the kind of false argument being thrown around often in OSS discourse that ignores the structural power differential. Don't like it? Write your own/Lea

by xfs 6y ago

This is the kind of false argument being thrown around often in OSS discourse that ignores the structural power differential. Don't like it? Write your own/Leave. The fact is you can't go back to it as an individual, because the system has changed and as an individual you're powerless to change the situation at all, especially against an army of developers paid full-time. The latest news from Debian is sysvinit support is no longer guaranteed.

cycloptic 6y ago
If you can't pull your own weight and don't want to try anymore then yes, you should leave and come back when you can. Sorry if that sounds rude but this is the way it is. OSS (and software in general) has always been driven by people who are fortunate enough to have access to expensive computers and who have the free time and motivation to spend programming. You can't let what they do bother you, and there's nothing wrong with taking a break and coming back later when you're ready. I'm sure the companies who employ these armies of developers are hiring so you could probably work there too if you really wanted. If anything the power differential has gotten much smaller in recent years with things like github, and last time I checked systemd was accepting pull requests. And even though they won't guarantee it, it sounds like Debian also will continue to accept contributions from those who want to spend time trying to support sysvinit. What exactly is the barrier you're having?
- rezonant 6y ago
  Before I comment here: I am a fan of systemd in many ways, and I happily use it on my systems. That being said, you do really have to think about the systemic factors at play here. As noted in the original article, Debian found itself in a position where the amount of work to sustain a non-systemd path in a systemd-dominated ecosystem would be too much work _for them_. If you personally have more development time then the entirety of the Debian project, then by all means. Let's just not assume that this is a feasible thing for a single person to handle, and really for all intents and purposes, trying to maintain a Linux distribution (or even just a personal Linux system) without using systemd at this point is folly, no matter how much you dislike it. That being said, SysV init is (in fact) terrible. I'd say put the effort into something that can supercede systemd some day. That part of the problem is tractable, though success is quite a long-shot given its entrenchment.
  - rezonant 6y ago
    I do want to say that despite my comment here, seems like projects like Devuan, Void, and Arch are doing OK with this, in concert with projects like elogind and eudev etc that forego systemd while providing compatible replacements.
  - JdeBP 6y ago
    The person who wrote the headlined article also wrote commentary back in 2014 on discussions of systemd, which highlighted the false dichotomy that people propound that the decision is between van Smoorenburg init+rc and systemd. You are doing that very thing, years later. That was never the case, especially so for Debian that you mention. In the Debian Hoo-Hah, the choices were van Smoorenburg init+rc, OpenRC, Upstart and systemd; the latter three being the main contenders, as was acknowledged partway through the affair. In Fedora and Ubuntu, the choice was between Upstart and systemd, Upstart having been what they used for some years before systemd. * https://web.archive.org/web/20141222234706/http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141222234706/http://uselessd.d...
  - martinflack 6y ago
    > Debian found itself in a position where the amount of work to sustain a non-systemd path in a systemd-dominated ecosystem would be too much work _for them_ Just as a side note for the interested, there is a project named Devuan that launched to keep alive a Debian sans systemd. https://devuan.org/ https://devuan.org/ (I've never run it myself; I just happen to know it exists.)
phatfish 6y ago
Lennart and the systemd team did exactly that 10 years ago. Why can't you? The code is there for someone with enough skill to show how bad systemd is right?
- josefx 6y ago
  > Lennart and the systemd team did exactly that 10 years ago. Why can't you? It would be impressive if Lennart managed that by himself. Red Hat wanted it done, Ret Hat also has its hands in various open source projects that suddenly started to sprout hard dependencies to systemd. Projects like Gnome were Red Hat is by far the biggest contributor. Not much an individual programmer can do compared to a corporation throwing its weight around to break things.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    > It would be impressive if Lennart managed that by himself. Red Hat wanted it done RedHat wanted it done once Lennart convinced them it is the right thing to do and Lennart put in the effort to be at RedHat at the right time to have the ability to convince them. In fact Lennart is one of the few people willing to put in the effort to touch the fundamental building blocks that otherwise rot, but nobody is willing to touch. > Projects like Gnome were Red Hat is by far the biggest contributor Yeah, I guess it's not that bad that in FLOSS, the people willing to ultimately sit down and put in the time and effort to actually write the code, even the non-sexy bits, get to steer the project over Hacker News commenters. That's not the worst outcome out there if you ask me.
    - nlgza 6y ago
      RedHat has several people who take over projects and rewrite everything they see, with little or no benefit other than getting a high commit count.
      - AsyncAwait 6y ago
        Any examples?
The_Colonel 6y ago
> The fact is you can't go back to it as an individual, because the system has changed and as an individual you're powerless to change the situation at all... Use Void Linux, help Devuan etc. You're not alone, but you're clearly in small minority.
- api 6y ago
  My personal favorite is Alpine Linux. It ditches a ton of other unnecessary cruft too. It feels lean and modern.

by xfs 6y ago

cycloptic 6y ago

If you can't pull your own weight and don't want to try anymore then yes, you should leave and come back when you can. Sorry if that sounds rude but this is the way it is. OSS (and software in general) has always been driven by people who are fortunate enough to have access to expensive computers and who have the free time and motivation to spend programming. You can't let what they do bother you, and there's nothing wrong with taking a break and coming back later when you're ready. I'm sure the companies who employ these armies of developers are hiring so you could probably work there too if you really wanted. If anything the power differential has gotten much smaller in recent years with things like github, and last time I checked systemd was accepting pull requests. And even though they won't guarantee it, it sounds like Debian also will continue to accept contributions from those who want to spend time trying to support sysvinit. What exactly is the barrier you're having?

rezonant 6y ago
Before I comment here: I am a fan of systemd in many ways, and I happily use it on my systems. That being said, you do really have to think about the systemic factors at play here. As noted in the original article, Debian found itself in a position where the amount of work to sustain a non-systemd path in a systemd-dominated ecosystem would be too much work _for them_. If you personally have more development time then the entirety of the Debian project, then by all means. Let's just not assume that this is a feasible thing for a single person to handle, and really for all intents and purposes, trying to maintain a Linux distribution (or even just a personal Linux system) without using systemd at this point is folly, no matter how much you dislike it. That being said, SysV init is (in fact) terrible. I'd say put the effort into something that can supercede systemd some day. That part of the problem is tractable, though success is quite a long-shot given its entrenchment.
- rezonant 6y ago
  I do want to say that despite my comment here, seems like projects like Devuan, Void, and Arch are doing OK with this, in concert with projects like elogind and eudev etc that forego systemd while providing compatible replacements.
- JdeBP 6y ago
  The person who wrote the headlined article also wrote commentary back in 2014 on discussions of systemd, which highlighted the false dichotomy that people propound that the decision is between van Smoorenburg init+rc and systemd. You are doing that very thing, years later. That was never the case, especially so for Debian that you mention. In the Debian Hoo-Hah, the choices were van Smoorenburg init+rc, OpenRC, Upstart and systemd; the latter three being the main contenders, as was acknowledged partway through the affair. In Fedora and Ubuntu, the choice was between Upstart and systemd, Upstart having been what they used for some years before systemd. * https://web.archive.org/web/20141222234706/http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141222234706/http://uselessd.d...
- martinflack 6y ago
  > Debian found itself in a position where the amount of work to sustain a non-systemd path in a systemd-dominated ecosystem would be too much work _for them_ Just as a side note for the interested, there is a project named Devuan that launched to keep alive a Debian sans systemd. https://devuan.org/ https://devuan.org/ (I've never run it myself; I just happen to know it exists.)

phatfish 6y ago

Lennart and the systemd team did exactly that 10 years ago. Why can't you? The code is there for someone with enough skill to show how bad systemd is right?

josefx 6y ago
> Lennart and the systemd team did exactly that 10 years ago. Why can't you? It would be impressive if Lennart managed that by himself. Red Hat wanted it done, Ret Hat also has its hands in various open source projects that suddenly started to sprout hard dependencies to systemd. Projects like Gnome were Red Hat is by far the biggest contributor. Not much an individual programmer can do compared to a corporation throwing its weight around to break things.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  > It would be impressive if Lennart managed that by himself. Red Hat wanted it done RedHat wanted it done once Lennart convinced them it is the right thing to do and Lennart put in the effort to be at RedHat at the right time to have the ability to convince them. In fact Lennart is one of the few people willing to put in the effort to touch the fundamental building blocks that otherwise rot, but nobody is willing to touch. > Projects like Gnome were Red Hat is by far the biggest contributor Yeah, I guess it's not that bad that in FLOSS, the people willing to ultimately sit down and put in the time and effort to actually write the code, even the non-sexy bits, get to steer the project over Hacker News commenters. That's not the worst outcome out there if you ask me.
  - nlgza 6y ago
    RedHat has several people who take over projects and rewrite everything they see, with little or no benefit other than getting a high commit count.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      Any examples?

The_Colonel 6y ago

> The fact is you can't go back to it as an individual, because the system has changed and as an individual you're powerless to change the situation at all... Use Void Linux, help Devuan etc. You're not alone, but you're clearly in small minority.

api 6y ago
My personal favorite is Alpine Linux. It ditches a ton of other unnecessary cruft too. It feels lean and modern.