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I don't think people realize the gravity of what's being done. While google and apple design nice apis which can do contact tracing while maintaining privacy, t

I don't think people realize the gravity of what's being done. While google and apple design nice apis which can do contact tracing while maintaining privacy, that's not how contact tracing will be implemented as shown by this app. It requires : - a mobile phone number - location and bluetooth, always on - name,profession The mobile number part concerns me. Government wants to use it as a way to contact people but the potential for abuse is there. Installing this app is mandatory for public and private companies. So if you are an employee, you have no choice in the matter. It's like a surveillance state in the making. They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works. To top it all off, non compliance is a criminal offence. FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India. Random cops stopping to ensure you have the app installed? Happening. Non complaince? Do situps, get beaten with a lathi. I wish I was joking. Edit : Manufactures will need to preinstall it on new devices. You can see where this is going. More reading : - https://internetfreedom.in/workers-privacy-during-covid-19/ https://internetfreedom.in/workers-privacy-during-covid-19/ - https://internetfreedom.in/45-organizations-and-105-prominent-individuals-push-back-against-the-coercion-of-aarogya-setu/ https://internetfreedom.in/45-organizations-and-105-prominen... - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/how-to-use-aarogya-setu-app-and-find-out-if-you-have-covid-19-symptoms/articleshow/75023152.cms?from=mdr https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/how-to-us...

dmos62 6y ago
I don't see an advantage of such an app over carrier level tracking (for the purposes of enforcing quarantine or social distancing). It has loads of advantages if you want this to also serve unrelated population surveillance purposes.
- ben_w 6y ago
  I may be out of date with the tech, but doesn’t carrier-level tracking only give you the cell tower that you are closest to? And even then, not always?
  - thinkingemote 6y ago
    You can triangulate based on cells. In urban areas the accuracy is around 25m or was 14 years ago.
  - jandrewrogers 6y ago
    Triangulation is not the only option available to carriers, it is just the easiest/cheapest.
- culturestate 6y ago
  > I don't see an advantage of such an app over carrier level tracking (for the purposes of enforcing quarantine or social distancing) Carrier location data doesn't have the resolution necessary for this to be effective. The carrier may be able to tell, for example, that you and I were in the same mall for 15 minutes, but there'd be no way to know how likely it is that one of us may have infected the other - we may never have come within 10 meters of each other. Using the app-based approach (assuming universal penetration and, you know, proper implementation) you could infer with a relatively high degree of confidence whether we were near enough to each other (or a common third contact) to require quarantine. That's an important distinction if your goal is to isolate as few people as possible so that the rest of life can go on.
  - dmos62 6y ago
    You might be right. I hadn't considered that they could be checking for contact at such a fine resolution.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    Even the carrier level of detail makes manual contact tracing much easier, while simultaneously preserving some sort of privacy.
- eklavya 6y ago
  I would really really try and understand the need of such app before making sweeping generalised statements like this. It's even more despicable for me since you know the govt officials are working their asses off for me and my family round the clock with no respite in sight. I have nothing but a new found respect for all the real corona warriors out there in the field.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    Don't you think you're laying it on a bit thick?
    - eklavya 6y ago
      Probably yes, but I mean the people out there serving us are people too. Let's stop demonising every move. Now is the time to stand together.
      - alpwan 6y ago
        > Now is the time to stand together. Historically this phrase has always been used by people who organize and consume other people's economic output. And they most decisively do not "serve you". That is a euphemism like the slogans written on the barn wall in "Animal Farm". I've literally never heard this phrase from a work horse.
eklavya 6y ago
Why do you think it's overkill? What alternative do you propose? Do you not think touting the horn of privacy in this crisis where everybody is unprepared is doing us any good? Why do you think it will remain once this is all over? > FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India. That's just garbage.
- objclxt 6y ago
  > Do you not think touting the horn of privacy in this crisis where everybody is unprepared is doing us any good? That's a false equivalence, there are much more private contact tracing approaches that exist today, backed by device manufacturers. Governments that aren't using those approaches should justify with actual evidence why they're not appropriate, rather than asking if we won't just think of the children. > Why do you think it will remain once this is all over? Because there is a large body of evidence throughout history that suggests exactly this.
  - codegladiator 6y ago
    > should justify with actual evidence why they're not appropriate The justification is incompetent (not trying to insult govt workers here but you know only people who got no private jobs in engineering look towards govt jobs) because the smart people wont join govt jobs because govt jobs don't pay as much. I don't think govt needs to say it out loud because it would change nothing and helps no one.
  - eklavya 6y ago
    So we should give all this data to the foreign companies instead of our own elected govt? Because surely they would never abuse it? > Because there is a large body of evidence throughout history that suggests exactly this. Yeah, one govt tried that, people didn't like it and people won. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)
    - mr_puzzled 6y ago
      > So we should give all this data to the foreign companies instead of our own elected govt? Or give the data to no one and do contact tracing in a privacy preserving way like the one apple and google designed? https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/current/static/contact-tracing/pdf/ExposureNotification-FAQv1.0.pdf https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/cu...
codegladiator 6y ago
> FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India Exactly what is a "complete joke" about the legal system ? The whole in its entirety ? > They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro Wasn't this the future everyone imagined ? or we all want to carry more X number of cards ?
- mr_puzzled 6y ago
  > Wasn't this the future everyone imagined ? or we all want to carry more X number of cards ? I think you're referring to the future where all tickets are digital, which is fine. This is in addition to the ticket, id checks etc. You will need to show the aarogya setu e pass to prove that you're low risk, don't have a history of coming in contact with a person having covid 19. In theory it sounds fine, the devil is in the details : having to link phone number, have all location history stored etc. If its like how apple and google designed it, I would be fine with it. Privacy is preserved. And this should never be mandatory in the first place. Reading : https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/current/static/contact-tracing/pdf/ExposureNotification-FAQv1.0.pdf https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/cu...
  - codegladiator 6y ago
    You really thing the google-apple way is preserving privacy ? People have problems with that too. I am sure the devil is in the details, but its easier to slam the govt doing anything. Reading: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-tech/germany-flips-on-smartphone-contact-tracing-backs-apple-and-google-idUSKCN22807J https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe...
    - searchableguy 6y ago
      More privacy friendly than setu. It upfront asks you about more information than it needs and also the tracking system seems to use more than bluetooth.
mytailorisrich 6y ago
This is a matter of public health in a very serious pandemic. There cannot be privacy for this to work and a little bit less privacy is a very little inconvenience in comparison of the effect of the pandemic. The people who tested positive must be known, the people who came in close contact with them must be known. Testing, quarantines, and self-isolation must be enforced. For tracing apps to work they must also be running on the vast majority of smartphones so this also cannot be left to the good will of people. This is common sense. Countries and people that have understood that, e.g. Korea, Taiwan, have crushed the virus. The sooner the virus is crushed the sooner we can forget about tracing apps.
- deepnotderp 6y ago
  Ridiculous. There are plenty of proposals for privacy oriented contact tracing apps.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    Anyone can propose anything. This does not necessarily make any sense. What is ridiculous is the complete lack of realism and pragmatism, if not plain common sense, here. The whole point of tracing apps is to find out who got in contact with infected people in order to enforce a procedure to deal with them. It cannot be private by definition.
    - greglindahl 6y ago
      I guess you missed the big discussion about the attempting-to-preserve-privacy Apple-Google app. You might want to read up about it before making lots of statements.
      - mytailorisrich 6y ago
        I have and my point stands. Again, the point is not just to send a text to people. The point is for the authorities to get the people's details in order to enforce a public health procedure from testing to self-isolation, as well as getting epidemiological data. The libertarian utopia does not work at all in such a situation. I mentioned Korea and Taiwan. You could read up about it...
kumarvvr 6y ago
You know that the app can be removed at any instant, once the lockdown is over? Contact tracing in India, which has one of the lowest Police / People ratios in the world, is extremely difficult. There are a billion+ people and simply not enough personnel to do any contact tracing. Sections of the society are hostile towards medical and police personnel. What alternative do you suggest? One that can be implemented immediately. > The mobile number part concerns me. Government wants to use it as a way to contact people but the potential for abuse is there What abuse are you talking about? > Installing this app is mandatory for public and private companies. So if you are an employee, you have no choice in the matter. It's like a surveillance state in the making. These are the ones who are travelling. What better method is there to execute contact tracing? > They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works. The virus is in India due to international travelers. You would want to know where an international traveler has been during his travel. Once someone is out of India, the govt. can't do anything. > Random cops stopping to ensure you have the app installed? Happening. Non complaince? Do situps, get beaten with a lathi. I wish I was joking. If you are roaming out when there is a lockdown, the cops ought to check the app. The app is meant for contact tracing. About getting beaten or made to do situps, in my view, a far lesser punishment rather than charging and going the legal route. Than would be draconian. Also, this requirement for app installation is because the lockdown is being considerably relaxed in majority of the country. I would agree about privacy issues if the govt. asks citizens to use it even after this pandemic is done. In that case, I myself will go to the streets to fight. But, in the current situation, this is absolutely required and the only cost-effective, efficient way for contact tracing in a country like India.
- pessimist 6y ago
  > You know that the app can be removed at any instant, once the lockdown is over? But the data is with the government already, and as per their terms of service can be stored forever, and for any purpose they wish (as long as its a "legal requirement"). "“The personal information collected will not be used for any purpose other than those mentioned in this Clause 2 save as required in order to comply with a legal requirement.” "All personal information collected from you under Clause 1(a) provided at the time of registration will be retained for as long as your account remains in existence and for such period thereafter as required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used or is otherwise required under any other law for the time being in force" https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu-Privacy-Policies-Comparison.pdf https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu-Pr... The government has already changed the privacy policy without notification, and for sure they can change it again and nobody - especially not a compliant judiciary - will stop them.
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TriNetra 6y ago
> They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works. From Bill Gates notes [0]: "Eventually we will have some digital certificates to show who has recovered or been tested recently or when we have a vaccine who has received it." IMO most (if not all) of steps being taken by India have been guided by world experts opinion on tackling this pandemic and it's too early to be panic about such measures. Let this virus problem be gone and we can then talk if government continues to keep such tracking in-place Btw, Indian legal system is no joke when it comes to higher courts - often courts have struck down laws not according to the fundamental spirit of the constitution. In a landmark judgement in August, 2017, India's Supreme Court Upholds Right to Privacy as a Fundamental Right [1]: > The right to privacy is protected as an intrinsic part of the right to life and personal liberty under Article 21 and as a part of the freedoms guaranteed by Part III of the Constitution. 0: https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/A-coronavirus-AMA https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/A-coronavirus-AMA 1: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/08/indias-supreme-court-upholds-right-privacy-fundamental-right-and-its-about-time https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/08/indias-supreme-court-u...
quantummkv 6y ago
> > - a mobile phone number - location and bluetooth, always on - name,profession > The mobile number part concerns me. Government wants to use it as a way to contact people but the potential for abuse is there. As opposed to all the above mentioned data that is already there with every government in the world for years. Do you really think that the government doesn't have your mobile no, name and profession? It's on your tax data for god's sake. And any government can already track your location with existing cell infrastructure with enough precision to term you an enemy of the state and whisk you away. The potential for abuse is there in everything. Everything. Technology used to make fertilizers by Fritz Haber was used to make explosives. Fire can be used to give warmth as well as burn witches at the stake. So should we just all die and be done with it all to stop the abuse of anything? > They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works. Even without the pandemic, boarding flights and travel was already dystopian across the world. So no changes there really. > To top it all off, non compliance is a criminal offence. FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India. And it is better in the US, UK or Europe? How many years did Nixon get? How many did Clinton get for his sexual assault? What happened to Epstien? What about Sir Jimmy Saville? What about Guantanamo Bay? What about.... you get the point, right? Predicting the future is hard. If there is a dictatorship after this has been dealt with, the people can and will rise to stop any abuses of power. After all, India has a lot of experience with revolutions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)
- deleted 6y ago
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- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  If what you say is true, theb why build it at all? Why spend money when existing infrastructure if government can already do it? Neither answer results in happy conclusions.
  - mayama 6y ago
    Scale and legal issues. Existing tracking measures are used on limited suspected criminals and requires paperwork to cover legal aspects of it. Some kind of approvals are required by magistrate, police etc. And these measures are not built to track thousands of people real time.
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searchableguy 6y ago
Someone looked into the permissions quickly - https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d50 https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d5...
- rsync 6y ago
  I've never examined a permissions dump for android before, but I see: <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.BLUETOOTH"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.BLUETOOTH_ADMIN"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_NETWORK_STATE"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.INTERNET"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.FOREGROUND_SERVICE"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.RECEIVE_BOOT_COMPLETED"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_BACKGROUND_LOCATION"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.WAKE_LOCK"/> <uses-permission android:name="com.google.android.c2dm.permission.RECEIVE"/> <uses-permission android:name="com.google.android.finsky.permission.BIND_GET_INSTALL_REFERRER_SERVICE"/> ... and I am surprised to not see carte blanche access to photos, contacts, SMS messages, etc. Which is to say, the granted permissions seems surprisingly restrained...
  - vmception 6y ago
    yes, this is standard affair permissions
  - hailk 6y ago
    Why would they need Bluetooth permission for?
    - greglindahl 6y ago
      That's how it can tell you were very close to someone -- all of the other tracking apps do it that way, too.
OrgNet 6y ago
You are giving too much credit to Google and Apple, I think...
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  I have seen how Google and Apple do things and I have seen how government do things. I would any day trust my data to something made by Google or Apple than something made or managed by the government. Yeah yeah sure the government is 'accountable' but the accountability barn door is pointless when the privacy horse has long fled, as is much likely to happen with the government's cavalier approach and practices. Look we get the anti-big-tech angst but when it starts ignoring on-ground facts it just sounds like angry rambling.
  - OrgNet 6y ago
    but Google and Apple have all that information already and the big pipe to the government is still open... just stop ignoring facts?
    - kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
      All the more reason to not give that data to the government, right, if they don't already have it?
      - OrgNet 6y ago
        Why would you recommend to use company "A" just because it doesn't need to have data "D" to provide feature "X" if it has access to data "D" through other means anyways and they share it anyways with the other entity Government "G" that you are so much against using secret laws...
  - mritun 6y ago
    You are forgetting that the government already has your data. You already use you most confidential data to pay taxes and divulge all income sources. So you want to give that data to private entities as well? God.
rsync 6y ago
"Non complaince? Do situps, get beaten with a lathi. I wish I was joking." Wait, what ?
- chopraaa 6y ago
  The government enforced a lockdown out of the blue, stopping trains and buses from moving. Migrant workers who were stranded tried to go back home by walking hundreds of miles but cops would see them and punish them. Punishment in this case is beating the crap out of them using batons, bamboo sticks, and making them do situps and bunny hop instead of walking back home. Doesn't matter why you're outside. Cops have attacked hundreds and even killed many in India for not enforcing the lockdown.
  - hailk 6y ago
    >even killed many Please support that claim with evidence. This seems ill-informed or malice-driven.
dang 6y ago
> FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India Please keep nationalistic flamebait off this site. It leads to much lower-quality discussion. Edit: I'm sure you didn't mean it as a swipe and were just talking the way one does in normal conversation, but unfortunately these throwaway phrases act like bombs in threads, so it's necessary to edit them out of one's comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- monadic2 6y ago
  Perhaps I'm wrong but this would be contrary to the nationalistic policies of the state. Personally, primary sources are what I come to the forum for—I understand the resulting discussion might be toxic, but the post itself is certainly valuable.
  - dang 6y ago
    Fortunately these things are easily separable. If you have a slug in your spinach, the solution is to take out the slug and keep the spinach.
    - shard972 6y ago
      Ah so censorship of political opinions? Even the minor side comments, got it.
      - dang 6y ago
        That's not the clearest of way of framing it if you want to understand what we do. I've explained this in detail in past comments: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20political%20overlap&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... Some good threads to start with might be https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396. If you or anyone takes a look at those past discussions and has a question that's not answered there, I'd like to know what it is; and if anyone knows a better solution, I'd really like to know what it is. Just make sure you've familiarized yourself with the material first, because if it's something simple like "just ban politics" or "just leave the threads alone", I've answered many times already why it won't work.
mritun 6y ago
Why do these people pretend that law enforcement excess, homelessness, government overreach, racism poverty and power abuse is just limited to certain countries ??? I live in America and I have donated to homeless causes here over the years. So every time someone brings poverty in India as a trope - I ask them to politely look in the mirror. Poverty is everywhere - just the color of skin is different!
- vinay427 6y ago
  For starters, I don't see any indication that the parent comment pretends that these things are limited to certain countries. They're simply adding their perspective on India, and we can agree or disagree with the points but most people on HN are not intimately familiar with the country so it may have some value. It also remains the case that the things they claim seem especially pronounced in India compared to in the US or certainly other developed countries. Is there no way to indicate this in a discussion about India without someone responding with a list of problems they see in the US?

dmos62 6y ago

I don't see an advantage of such an app over carrier level tracking (for the purposes of enforcing quarantine or social distancing). It has loads of advantages if you want this to also serve unrelated population surveillance purposes.

ben_w 6y ago
I may be out of date with the tech, but doesn’t carrier-level tracking only give you the cell tower that you are closest to? And even then, not always?
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  You can triangulate based on cells. In urban areas the accuracy is around 25m or was 14 years ago.
- jandrewrogers 6y ago
  Triangulation is not the only option available to carriers, it is just the easiest/cheapest.
culturestate 6y ago
> I don't see an advantage of such an app over carrier level tracking (for the purposes of enforcing quarantine or social distancing) Carrier location data doesn't have the resolution necessary for this to be effective. The carrier may be able to tell, for example, that you and I were in the same mall for 15 minutes, but there'd be no way to know how likely it is that one of us may have infected the other - we may never have come within 10 meters of each other. Using the app-based approach (assuming universal penetration and, you know, proper implementation) you could infer with a relatively high degree of confidence whether we were near enough to each other (or a common third contact) to require quarantine. That's an important distinction if your goal is to isolate as few people as possible so that the rest of life can go on.
- dmos62 6y ago
  You might be right. I hadn't considered that they could be checking for contact at such a fine resolution.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Even the carrier level of detail makes manual contact tracing much easier, while simultaneously preserving some sort of privacy.
eklavya 6y ago
I would really really try and understand the need of such app before making sweeping generalised statements like this. It's even more despicable for me since you know the govt officials are working their asses off for me and my family round the clock with no respite in sight. I have nothing but a new found respect for all the real corona warriors out there in the field.
- catalogia 6y ago
  Don't you think you're laying it on a bit thick?
  - eklavya 6y ago
    Probably yes, but I mean the people out there serving us are people too. Let's stop demonising every move. Now is the time to stand together.
    - alpwan 6y ago
      > Now is the time to stand together. Historically this phrase has always been used by people who organize and consume other people's economic output. And they most decisively do not "serve you". That is a euphemism like the slogans written on the barn wall in "Animal Farm". I've literally never heard this phrase from a work horse.

eklavya 6y ago

Why do you think it's overkill? What alternative do you propose? Do you not think touting the horn of privacy in this crisis where everybody is unprepared is doing us any good? Why do you think it will remain once this is all over? > FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India. That's just garbage.

objclxt 6y ago
> Do you not think touting the horn of privacy in this crisis where everybody is unprepared is doing us any good? That's a false equivalence, there are much more private contact tracing approaches that exist today, backed by device manufacturers. Governments that aren't using those approaches should justify with actual evidence why they're not appropriate, rather than asking if we won't just think of the children. > Why do you think it will remain once this is all over? Because there is a large body of evidence throughout history that suggests exactly this.
- codegladiator 6y ago
  > should justify with actual evidence why they're not appropriate The justification is incompetent (not trying to insult govt workers here but you know only people who got no private jobs in engineering look towards govt jobs) because the smart people wont join govt jobs because govt jobs don't pay as much. I don't think govt needs to say it out loud because it would change nothing and helps no one.
- eklavya 6y ago
  So we should give all this data to the foreign companies instead of our own elected govt? Because surely they would never abuse it? > Because there is a large body of evidence throughout history that suggests exactly this. Yeah, one govt tried that, people didn't like it and people won. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)
  - mr_puzzled 6y ago
    > So we should give all this data to the foreign companies instead of our own elected govt? Or give the data to no one and do contact tracing in a privacy preserving way like the one apple and google designed? https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/current/static/contact-tracing/pdf/ExposureNotification-FAQv1.0.pdf https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/cu...

codegladiator 6y ago

> FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India Exactly what is a "complete joke" about the legal system ? The whole in its entirety ? > They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro Wasn't this the future everyone imagined ? or we all want to carry more X number of cards ?

mr_puzzled 6y ago
> Wasn't this the future everyone imagined ? or we all want to carry more X number of cards ? I think you're referring to the future where all tickets are digital, which is fine. This is in addition to the ticket, id checks etc. You will need to show the aarogya setu e pass to prove that you're low risk, don't have a history of coming in contact with a person having covid 19. In theory it sounds fine, the devil is in the details : having to link phone number, have all location history stored etc. If its like how apple and google designed it, I would be fine with it. Privacy is preserved. And this should never be mandatory in the first place. Reading : https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/current/static/contact-tracing/pdf/ExposureNotification-FAQv1.0.pdf https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/cu...
- codegladiator 6y ago
  You really thing the google-apple way is preserving privacy ? People have problems with that too. I am sure the devil is in the details, but its easier to slam the govt doing anything. Reading: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-tech/germany-flips-on-smartphone-contact-tracing-backs-apple-and-google-idUSKCN22807J https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe...
  - searchableguy 6y ago
    More privacy friendly than setu. It upfront asks you about more information than it needs and also the tracking system seems to use more than bluetooth.

mytailorisrich 6y ago

This is a matter of public health in a very serious pandemic. There cannot be privacy for this to work and a little bit less privacy is a very little inconvenience in comparison of the effect of the pandemic. The people who tested positive must be known, the people who came in close contact with them must be known. Testing, quarantines, and self-isolation must be enforced. For tracing apps to work they must also be running on the vast majority of smartphones so this also cannot be left to the good will of people. This is common sense. Countries and people that have understood that, e.g. Korea, Taiwan, have crushed the virus. The sooner the virus is crushed the sooner we can forget about tracing apps.

deepnotderp 6y ago
Ridiculous. There are plenty of proposals for privacy oriented contact tracing apps.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  Anyone can propose anything. This does not necessarily make any sense. What is ridiculous is the complete lack of realism and pragmatism, if not plain common sense, here. The whole point of tracing apps is to find out who got in contact with infected people in order to enforce a procedure to deal with them. It cannot be private by definition.
  - greglindahl 6y ago
    I guess you missed the big discussion about the attempting-to-preserve-privacy Apple-Google app. You might want to read up about it before making lots of statements.
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
      I have and my point stands. Again, the point is not just to send a text to people. The point is for the authorities to get the people's details in order to enforce a public health procedure from testing to self-isolation, as well as getting epidemiological data. The libertarian utopia does not work at all in such a situation. I mentioned Korea and Taiwan. You could read up about it...

kumarvvr 6y ago

You know that the app can be removed at any instant, once the lockdown is over? Contact tracing in India, which has one of the lowest Police / People ratios in the world, is extremely difficult. There are a billion+ people and simply not enough personnel to do any contact tracing. Sections of the society are hostile towards medical and police personnel. What alternative do you suggest? One that can be implemented immediately. > The mobile number part concerns me. Government wants to use it as a way to contact people but the potential for abuse is there What abuse are you talking about? > Installing this app is mandatory for public and private companies. So if you are an employee, you have no choice in the matter. It's like a surveillance state in the making. These are the ones who are travelling. What better method is there to execute contact tracing? > They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works. The virus is in India due to international travelers. You would want to know where an international traveler has been during his travel. Once someone is out of India, the govt. can't do anything. > Random cops stopping to ensure you have the app installed? Happening. Non complaince? Do situps, get beaten with a lathi. I wish I was joking. If you are roaming out when there is a lockdown, the cops ought to check the app. The app is meant for contact tracing. About getting beaten or made to do situps, in my view, a far lesser punishment rather than charging and going the legal route. Than would be draconian. Also, this requirement for app installation is because the lockdown is being considerably relaxed in majority of the country. I would agree about privacy issues if the govt. asks citizens to use it even after this pandemic is done. In that case, I myself will go to the streets to fight. But, in the current situation, this is absolutely required and the only cost-effective, efficient way for contact tracing in a country like India.

pessimist 6y ago
> You know that the app can be removed at any instant, once the lockdown is over? But the data is with the government already, and as per their terms of service can be stored forever, and for any purpose they wish (as long as its a "legal requirement"). "“The personal information collected will not be used for any purpose other than those mentioned in this Clause 2 save as required in order to comply with a legal requirement.” "All personal information collected from you under Clause 1(a) provided at the time of registration will be retained for as long as your account remains in existence and for such period thereafter as required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used or is otherwise required under any other law for the time being in force" https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu-Privacy-Policies-Comparison.pdf https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu-Pr... The government has already changed the privacy policy without notification, and for sure they can change it again and nobody - especially not a compliant judiciary - will stop them.

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TriNetra 6y ago

> They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works. From Bill Gates notes [0]: "Eventually we will have some digital certificates to show who has recovered or been tested recently or when we have a vaccine who has received it." IMO most (if not all) of steps being taken by India have been guided by world experts opinion on tackling this pandemic and it's too early to be panic about such measures. Let this virus problem be gone and we can then talk if government continues to keep such tracking in-place Btw, Indian legal system is no joke when it comes to higher courts - often courts have struck down laws not according to the fundamental spirit of the constitution. In a landmark judgement in August, 2017, India's Supreme Court Upholds Right to Privacy as a Fundamental Right [1]: > The right to privacy is protected as an intrinsic part of the right to life and personal liberty under Article 21 and as a part of the freedoms guaranteed by Part III of the Constitution. 0: https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/A-coronavirus-AMA https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/A-coronavirus-AMA 1: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/08/indias-supreme-court-upholds-right-privacy-fundamental-right-and-its-about-time https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/08/indias-supreme-court-u...

quantummkv 6y ago

> > - a mobile phone number - location and bluetooth, always on - name,profession > The mobile number part concerns me. Government wants to use it as a way to contact people but the potential for abuse is there. As opposed to all the above mentioned data that is already there with every government in the world for years. Do you really think that the government doesn't have your mobile no, name and profession? It's on your tax data for god's sake. And any government can already track your location with existing cell infrastructure with enough precision to term you an enemy of the state and whisk you away. The potential for abuse is there in everything. Everything. Technology used to make fertilizers by Fritz Haber was used to make explosives. Fire can be used to give warmth as well as burn witches at the stake. So should we just all die and be done with it all to stop the abuse of anything? > They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works. Even without the pandemic, boarding flights and travel was already dystopian across the world. So no changes there really. > To top it all off, non compliance is a criminal offence. FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India. And it is better in the US, UK or Europe? How many years did Nixon get? How many did Clinton get for his sexual assault? What happened to Epstien? What about Sir Jimmy Saville? What about Guantanamo Bay? What about.... you get the point, right? Predicting the future is hard. If there is a dictatorship after this has been dealt with, the people can and will rise to stop any abuses of power. After all, India has a lot of experience with revolutions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)

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A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
If what you say is true, theb why build it at all? Why spend money when existing infrastructure if government can already do it? Neither answer results in happy conclusions.
- mayama 6y ago
  Scale and legal issues. Existing tracking measures are used on limited suspected criminals and requires paperwork to cover legal aspects of it. Some kind of approvals are required by magistrate, police etc. And these measures are not built to track thousands of people real time.

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searchableguy 6y ago

Someone looked into the permissions quickly - https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d50 https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d5...

rsync 6y ago
I've never examined a permissions dump for android before, but I see: <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.BLUETOOTH"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.BLUETOOTH_ADMIN"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_NETWORK_STATE"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.INTERNET"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.FOREGROUND_SERVICE"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.RECEIVE_BOOT_COMPLETED"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_BACKGROUND_LOCATION"/> <uses-permission android:name="android.permission.WAKE_LOCK"/> <uses-permission android:name="com.google.android.c2dm.permission.RECEIVE"/> <uses-permission android:name="com.google.android.finsky.permission.BIND_GET_INSTALL_REFERRER_SERVICE"/> ... and I am surprised to not see carte blanche access to photos, contacts, SMS messages, etc. Which is to say, the granted permissions seems surprisingly restrained...
- vmception 6y ago
  yes, this is standard affair permissions
- hailk 6y ago
  Why would they need Bluetooth permission for?
  - greglindahl 6y ago
    That's how it can tell you were very close to someone -- all of the other tracking apps do it that way, too.

OrgNet 6y ago

You are giving too much credit to Google and Apple, I think...

kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
I have seen how Google and Apple do things and I have seen how government do things. I would any day trust my data to something made by Google or Apple than something made or managed by the government. Yeah yeah sure the government is 'accountable' but the accountability barn door is pointless when the privacy horse has long fled, as is much likely to happen with the government's cavalier approach and practices. Look we get the anti-big-tech angst but when it starts ignoring on-ground facts it just sounds like angry rambling.
- OrgNet 6y ago
  but Google and Apple have all that information already and the big pipe to the government is still open... just stop ignoring facts?
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
    All the more reason to not give that data to the government, right, if they don't already have it?
    - OrgNet 6y ago
      Why would you recommend to use company "A" just because it doesn't need to have data "D" to provide feature "X" if it has access to data "D" through other means anyways and they share it anyways with the other entity Government "G" that you are so much against using secret laws...
- mritun 6y ago
  You are forgetting that the government already has your data. You already use you most confidential data to pay taxes and divulge all income sources. So you want to give that data to private entities as well? God.

rsync 6y ago

"Non complaince? Do situps, get beaten with a lathi. I wish I was joking." Wait, what ?

chopraaa 6y ago
The government enforced a lockdown out of the blue, stopping trains and buses from moving. Migrant workers who were stranded tried to go back home by walking hundreds of miles but cops would see them and punish them. Punishment in this case is beating the crap out of them using batons, bamboo sticks, and making them do situps and bunny hop instead of walking back home. Doesn't matter why you're outside. Cops have attacked hundreds and even killed many in India for not enforcing the lockdown.
- hailk 6y ago
  >even killed many Please support that claim with evidence. This seems ill-informed or malice-driven.

dang 6y ago

> FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India Please keep nationalistic flamebait off this site. It leads to much lower-quality discussion. Edit: I'm sure you didn't mean it as a swipe and were just talking the way one does in normal conversation, but unfortunately these throwaway phrases act like bombs in threads, so it's necessary to edit them out of one's comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

monadic2 6y ago
Perhaps I'm wrong but this would be contrary to the nationalistic policies of the state. Personally, primary sources are what I come to the forum for—I understand the resulting discussion might be toxic, but the post itself is certainly valuable.
- dang 6y ago
  Fortunately these things are easily separable. If you have a slug in your spinach, the solution is to take out the slug and keep the spinach.
  - shard972 6y ago
    Ah so censorship of political opinions? Even the minor side comments, got it.
    - dang 6y ago
      That's not the clearest of way of framing it if you want to understand what we do. I've explained this in detail in past comments: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20political%20overlap&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... Some good threads to start with might be https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396. If you or anyone takes a look at those past discussions and has a question that's not answered there, I'd like to know what it is; and if anyone knows a better solution, I'd really like to know what it is. Just make sure you've familiarized yourself with the material first, because if it's something simple like "just ban politics" or "just leave the threads alone", I've answered many times already why it won't work.

mritun 6y ago

Why do these people pretend that law enforcement excess, homelessness, government overreach, racism poverty and power abuse is just limited to certain countries ??? I live in America and I have donated to homeless causes here over the years. So every time someone brings poverty in India as a trope - I ask them to politely look in the mirror. Poverty is everywhere - just the color of skin is different!

vinay427 6y ago
For starters, I don't see any indication that the parent comment pretends that these things are limited to certain countries. They're simply adding their perspective on India, and we can agree or disagree with the points but most people on HN are not intimately familiar with the country so it may have some value. It also remains the case that the things they claim seem especially pronounced in India compared to in the US or certainly other developed countries. Is there no way to indicate this in a discussion about India without someone responding with a list of problems they see in the US?