37 ms·

India orders coronavirus tracing app for all workers

244 points by caution 6y ago

jjgreen 6y ago
The covid choice: 1) you jail your poulation for 2 years, 2) you adopt a police-state, 3) you accept 1% of your population will die. Seems that India is going for 2).
- searchableguy 6y ago
  Buffer stock gets wasted every year or mysteriously stolen. They stock more than they need to for some odd reasons again (oh yeah, they need to have something to sell in the black market). 7k+ people die every day due to hunger in india. If government cared when they could easily solve this. (3k are kids). So I don't think it's about people. [Removed]
  - ben_w 6y ago
    1% of India’s population is 13.4 million people. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%25%20of%20India%20population http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%25%20of%20India%20pop... That is 1913 days of deaths by starvation at the rate you specify. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%25%20of%20India%20population%2F7000%20people%20per%20day http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%25%20of%20India%20pop... Five and a quarter years.
    - searchableguy 6y ago
      How many people are dead due to covid so far? I am making a bad faith argument but that doesn't mean proposing the 1% of entire country will die due to not having a privacy invasive contact tracing app.
      - ben_w 6y ago
        1% is the approximate fatality rate with treatment. 1% is the “good” (less bad) outcome if everyone catches it in a controlled rate before vaccinations are ready. You only get less than that with a lockdown of some sort. You get way more than that if the medical system can’t keep up with demand. What’s the medical system like in India these days?
        searchableguy 6y ago
        I don't understand where you are going with this. Can you show me that contact tracing can make significant difference? If not, then I won't consider the other points as they are simply irrelevant. Without the setu app being mandatory, going by government figures (which I doubt somewhat), only about 1.2k people have died so far. I will consider that as a starting point and compare this to all the unnecessary deaths that happen in the country which government blatantly ignores. And we still spend 3.6% of the total GDP on the healthcare so not really good. Could be anecdote but I am seeing less specialists in india and more dentists, dermatologist, and cosmetics. Government hospitals are still unhygienic where I live so I won't even consider going there.
        sbmthakur 6y ago
        > Without the setu app being mandatory, going by government figures (which I doubt somewhat), only about 1.2k people have died so far. That's probably because we are in a strict lockdown which is not sustainable. The real effect of contract-tracing will be only be known when the economy is fully opened.
        ben_w 6y ago
        > Can you show me that contact tracing can make significant difference? It’s a standard technique that has been successfully used for a long time. For example, it’s how smallpox was finally wiped out. (This is a separate point to “does this particular app look suspicious?” to which I say “yes”). > going by government figures (which I doubt somewhat), only under 1k people have died so far. In India, which is doing the things you’re complaining about. Meanwhile, the USA, which has less than a quarter of India’s population, has 65,605. Are you familiar with exponential growth, or do you only ever see the word “exponential” used to mean “rapid” without the strict mathematical meaning?
  - jjgreen 6y ago
    I'm not sure I understand -- you seem to think I'm making a "bad faith argument", rather I see it as an observation. China has gone for 2) (not that they weren't a police state already), Sweden for 3), the rest of Europe seems to be inching towards 2). Do you have a different view? (genuinely interested). No need to worry about me getting scam calls, I don't have a phone.
    - searchableguy 6y ago
      Taking a second look, I will apologise. I was biased in how I perceived it. Every indian thread makes me paranoid because I feel there is an IT mob hired or some invisible force trying to get it off the front-page or reverse the criticism. It's always the same names making rebuttal to comments, same downvote waves, and they try to put more comments than the upvotes to automatically kill the submission.
- 0xmohit 6y ago
  India was always a surveillance state in the making, thanks to Aadhaar. The Indian government is now utilizing the crisis to fast-pace the process. Not only are they planning to make the contact tracing app registration on new phones mandatory, they're also planning to bring the app to feature phones. Source: Aarogya Setu coming on feature phones; to cover the entire country https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-setu-coming-on-feature-phones-to-cover-the-entire-country/articleshow/75493148.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-s...
  - jjgreen 6y ago
    Interesting, thanks. "Never let a good crisis go to waste."
  - sbmthakur 6y ago
    Has Aadhaar been used for surveilling people?
    - wtmt 6y ago
      Yes, and even for knocking people off of voter lists in Andhra Pradesh.
      - sbmthakur 6y ago
        Any reference for that? Voters list is routinely updated.
  - aplthxa 6y ago
    Would the downvoters care to explain their actions. Aadhaar has been under fire for a long time and this seems like a factual comment. It seems that one cannot criticize India or China on HN.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  where is the 1% coming from?
- quantummkv 6y ago
  Which is a lot better than 1) and 3), unless you are a glove carrying member of the Cult of Thanos. Saying that some part of the population will die and should be left to die only seems like a very good idea when you are not in that part of the population. And I really don't know where the 1% number is from. What guarantee you have that the number won't be 10%? 25%? 50%?
  - jjgreen 6y ago
    The 1% seems to be the death rate for the infected when there is healthcare available (i.e., not overloaded). I'm not a member of a cult, but I would much rather have a 1% chance of dying than spend my life in a police-state. That's my personal preference (and yes, I am an old fart, so I have skin in this game).
- greglindahl 6y ago
  Are these the only choices, or are there more? I haven't seen any medical leader or government leader present these as the only choices.
  - therealdrag0 6y ago
    Parent comment is generalizing. “Being in lockdown” is “jailing citizens”. Contact tracing is “surveillance state” etc
vijaybritto 6y ago
The govt says that we don't have to worry about privacy because our data is safe with them!! :D. Also they ask for lot more permissions than location
- searchableguy 6y ago
  I don't think some of that is due to malice but incompetence/disregard for privacy in the IT sweatshops that produced it.
  - plinkplonk 6y ago
    >the IT sweatshops that produced it. "The app, conceived by NITI Aayog, has been developed in two weeks by the National Informatics Centre in collaboration with the developers of makemytrip.com and 1mg.com." [1] None of these are sweatshops. [1] https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/guest-column/story/20200427-the-lsquo-long-arm-rsquo-of-an-app-1668042-2020-04-18 https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/guest-column/story/202004...
    - as1mov 6y ago
      I am sure an app developed in 2 weeks will be very secure. Incidentally, I've worked with a bunch of ex-MMT developers for quite sometime, I wouldn't consider most of them very competent.
      - searchableguy 6y ago
        https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d50 https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d5... Here are the permissions it seems to use. I am surprised it's not as draconian as some other government released apps.
- eqtn 6y ago
  The app also talks to firebase database[0] for storing something [0] https://covid19-6c396.firebaseio.com https://covid19-6c396.firebaseio.com
searchableguy 6y ago
Reminder that the same government has leaked billions of records so far. More leaks than the people in the entire country. One example - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/01/04/a-security-breach-in-india-has-left-a-billion-people-at-risk-of-identity-theft/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/01/04... And you can find many. You won't get anyone caring about privacy in government offices. A lot of government workers here are negligent pension parasites. I expect the same in most parts. I know of a few sites where they don't do any validation on the server side and it's easy to fake being authenticated by sending an additional header. There are quite a few sites with firebase without any granular validation or access control implemented. Some even allow SQL injection attacks using some old php framework. I sent them email but no response. And Frankly speaking, I would be very worried about sending anything security related to government without using some anonymous non traceable email because you might be put into jail. They can't even handle surges in scale. Most government sites are broken. Any student who has ever had to deal with it knows it. Any business person who depends on those sites for approval knows it. They also require biometrics to sign in some of those sites now. Absolutely baffling with no alternative. This is absolutely bad. More so as when they want to release personal protection data bill around September - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Data_Protection_Bill_2019 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Data_Protection_Bil... Obligatory internet shutdowns - https://internetshutdowns.in/ https://internetshutdowns.in/ Jio using sni to block sites - https://cis-india.org/internet-governance/blog/reliance-jio-is-using-sni-inspection-to-block-websites https://cis-india.org/internet-governance/blog/reliance-jio-... They block more than porn sites including vpns and normal communication tools - https://qz.com/india/1547142/not-just-porn-indian-telecom-firms-are-blocking-other-websites-too/ https://qz.com/india/1547142/not-just-porn-indian-telecom-fi... This is a surveillance state in the making.
- ashleshbiradar 6y ago
  Yep India tops the list of Internet Shutdowns, they shutdown the internet for petty reasons like "school exams" so that kids don't cheat or the paper won't "leak" to shutting down internet whenever there is a mass agitation. Kashmir is an entire different thing, its been more than 8 months that the entire state has no full access to the internet.
mr_puzzled 6y ago
I don't think people realize the gravity of what's being done. While google and apple design nice apis which can do contact tracing while maintaining privacy, that's not how contact tracing will be implemented as shown by this app. It requires : - a mobile phone number - location and bluetooth, always on - name,profession The mobile number part concerns me. Government wants to use it as a way to contact people but the potential for abuse is there. Installing this app is mandatory for public and private companies. So if you are an employee, you have no choice in the matter. It's like a surveillance state in the making. They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works. To top it all off, non compliance is a criminal offence. FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India. Random cops stopping to ensure you have the app installed? Happening. Non complaince? Do situps, get beaten with a lathi. I wish I was joking. Edit : Manufactures will need to preinstall it on new devices. You can see where this is going. More reading : - https://internetfreedom.in/workers-privacy-during-covid-19/ https://internetfreedom.in/workers-privacy-during-covid-19/ - https://internetfreedom.in/45-organizations-and-105-prominent-individuals-push-back-against-the-coercion-of-aarogya-setu/ https://internetfreedom.in/45-organizations-and-105-prominen... - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/how-to-use-aarogya-setu-app-and-find-out-if-you-have-covid-19-symptoms/articleshow/75023152.cms?from=mdr https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/how-to-us...
- dmos62 6y ago
  I don't see an advantage of such an app over carrier level tracking (for the purposes of enforcing quarantine or social distancing). It has loads of advantages if you want this to also serve unrelated population surveillance purposes.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    I may be out of date with the tech, but doesn’t carrier-level tracking only give you the cell tower that you are closest to? And even then, not always?
    - 6y ago
ferros 6y ago
The real question is, after this all dies down, will these apps be repurposed and become the new normal?
- arpa 6y ago
  You betcha!
  - eklavya 6y ago
    How much would you be willing to bet on this?
    - arpa 6y ago
      All the historical data of governments taking "emergency powers" and not letting them go afterwards.
      - eklavya 6y ago
        Let me rephrase, how much are you willing to bet that this app will be mandatory to be installed after the Covid crisis is over?
        arpa 6y ago
        I am not a gambler, but let's say $5 if you really wish to get money involved. Or a bottle of scotch.
        plinkplonk 6y ago
        (I am Indian and live in India fwiw) How about 10k Rs to be donated to the winner's favorite charity? How about 1 January 2022 as a settlement date? If the app is still mandatory on that date, I win, else you do.
        eklavya 6y ago
        I will gladly take you up on that :) Bonus that whoever wins, money goes to a charity too.
arpa 6y ago
This is beyond fucked up! Faraday cages? Fake apps? What's the tech solution for this problem?
- kd5bjo 6y ago
  Paper maps and landline telephones
  - arpa 6y ago
    Well if the law mandates you to have an employer (or government) - issued smartphone you MUST have on you at all times, this is going to result in fines and/or incarceration.
    - wtmt 6y ago
      They’ll go with ankle monitor kind of things for that. There was recent news about a tender floated by the government to get wrist straps to monitor infected and quarantined people (that report was later debunked). But some countries are looking at “wearables”.
- Figs 6y ago
  The short term solution is to turn your phone off. If plausible deniability is needed, just let the battery ran out. Long term, the proper solution is political rather than technical though.
  - arpa 6y ago
    Funny how simple solutions often elude us. Agreed re: long term.
  - kranner 6y ago
    Finally a use for old smartphones that no longer boot.
sn41 6y ago
1. If the data is collected anonymously, why is the mobile number required? 2. What if an employee has only a feature phone, not a smartphone?
- arpa 6y ago
  1. "Anonymously" - it's just a phone number, no names... /s 2. Employer buys a smartphone for employee to confirm to gov requirements.
  - mikro2nd 6y ago
    3. Employee "forgets" phone in desk drawer/locker when going home every evening.
    - jlokier 6y ago
      4. Employee convicted of not carrying their tracking device. Beatings continue until morale improves.
- mr_puzzled 6y ago
  1. It's not anonymous in any way, just some bullshit marketing speak. 2. These mfers are building the app for feature phones as well. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-setu-coming-on-feature-phones-to-cover-the-entire-country/articleshow/75493148.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-s...
  - ateevchopra 6y ago
    "1. It's not anonymous in any way, just some bullshit marketing speak. " Source ?
    - mr_puzzled 6y ago
      What source do you want? The app literally asks for your phone number, name, profession. Which of these details make you think "anonymous" has any meaning at all.
codegladiator 6y ago
damned if you do, damned if you don't.\ To everyone who is pointing out the obvious negatives, why don't you go into govt jobs making these apps/policies and do what you believe is correct/perfect. I couldn't like this approach of mandatory app lesser, but 'lets not do it because it has potential for abuse' cliche needs to phase out.
- NewLogic 6y ago
  > why don't you go into govt jobs making these apps/policies and do what you believe is correct/perfect. What is this, the youtube comment section? Nah, terrible take. These systems are being pushed through multiple democracies by governments trading on fear and the false promises of safety.
  - codegladiator 6y ago
    > What is this, the youtube comment section? Nah maybe it should be. a wider variety of takes is available on youtube comment section. your rest of the comment is again just absolute worst of what you can say about the govt in one sweep. nobody is saying indian govt is the best.
    - NewLogic 6y ago
      The argument of "If you can do a better job, why haven't you already?" is an extremely lazy gotcha on all levels. As for the rest of my comment, it is merely commenting on recorded shifts in social democracies with 911 being a highlighted turning point aided by the rise of the digital economy.
- searchableguy 6y ago
  You see, india is way bigger than Singapore or many smaller countries that were able to create more privacy friendly apps than this. And you can find many open source tools/spec as well. Even after all that, the government is going with this? Also, it's not about the app but past behaviour of the government. It doesn't seem sincere in the slightest. And democracy makes it so you can't change something if the masses doesn't want it and the masses don't care. And if you want to change masses, remember that many famous people who changed the world were killed or lynched by the mob. People are not altruistic. If they think something can benefit them somewhat, they will do it but if there are no upsides, only downsides. Why would you do it?
0xmohit 6y ago
The government of India is making it mandatory for all new smartphones to be sold in India post lifting of the lockdown to not just have the app as a pre-installed service, but also ensure that individuals register on it and set it up, before beginning to use their new smartphones. Source: Aarogya Setu Registration Will be Mandatory to Setup New Phone: Govt Sources https://www.news18.com/news/tech/aarogya-setu-registration-will-be-mandatory-to-setup-new-phone-govt-sources-2599197.html https://www.news18.com/news/tech/aarogya-setu-registration-w...
- Razengan 6y ago
  I hope Apple will continue to win in the fight to keep third-party bloatware off iPhones, like they did versus AT&T when it first came out.
  - krtkush 6y ago
    I don't have much hope even as an Apple user. Apple will bend over because it has done so before in case of China. Apple will be in no mood to let go of the huge inroads it has made into the Indian smartphone market in the past one year.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- plinkplonk 6y ago
  How does this work with Apple phones? Will apple make set up of their phones dependent on installing government spyware first? How do they handle this in China? And does this mean that android permissions no longer work? What if people just make location and gps unavailable to the app after installation?
  - greglindahl 6y ago
    Apple was already in a fight with India about app store approval of government-developed apps.
sbmthakur 6y ago
What if I disable/give up mobile data? I seriously doubt they can ensure compliance in this case. Maybe they will ask companies to add it in their compliance requirements.
- deno 6y ago
  Why do you think you will be able to disable cellular modem in the future? You won’t have that option. Also Apple’s tracing works offline via Bluetooth.
  - sbmthakur 6y ago
    > Also Apple’s tracing works via Bluetooth. That's what I was expecting from this app too. This particular app won't work without cellular-data enabled. > You won’t have that option. Could you explain this is a bit? Why can't I disable it on my phone?
    - deno 6y ago
      Baseband processors already operate independently with its own operating system and often have greater access than the application processor. Simple firmware update is all it takes right now to have it not turn itself off. CIA actively uses this capability on select targets, as per Snowden leaks, even when the phone is “off.”
      - wtmt 6y ago
        I think this is an old understanding that doesn’t apply any longer to good modern phones.
        deno 6y ago
        We’re talking about future phones.
      - anticensor 6y ago
        Cellular modem that stays enabled despite user "disabling" will indicate itself by a quickly draining battery. Airplane mode and sleep data have much different battery consumption profiles. Indian people are not that stupid, and this will lead to a violent protest unlike China.
buboard 6y ago
Over time this will lead to backlash towards mobile technologies from people. Not that big tech does not deserve it after decade of pushing hard on surveillance tech and telling governments how great it is. No country wants a completely anonymous app because it's useless. And abuses like these show already the ugly side of it. If i knew my phone is bugged, i d leave it at home.
r00f 6y ago
I'm just wondering, what if a person doesnt have smartphone? There are many elderly people who still have Nokia 1100 or something like that, and do not care. Will they get beaten every day? Or if this is mandatory, will the government provide free devices to everyone?
- deno 6y ago
  In Poland they make people install government issued App or declare[1] under threat of perjury that you don’t own a suitable device. > will the government provide free devices to everyone? Free and subdermal. /s [1] https://www.gov.pl/attachment/f3014313-bed3-4012-98fa-ea35bf71dc2d https://www.gov.pl/attachment/f3014313-bed3-4012-98fa-ea35bf...
  - cryptica 6y ago
    Nice, I hope these Nokia phones make a comeback. I miss the long battery life.
    - kwhitefoot 6y ago
      I've just checked that my old LG flip phone still works, perhaps I'll have to start using it.
  - bobx11 6y ago
    First I’m seeing this, is it only for when you cross the border into Poland?
    - deno 6y ago
      It’s for the imposed quarantine, so my understanding is if you cross the border or have a positive test. More information: https://www.gov.pl/attachment/dfc022ca-df40-4b81-94e4-44ef2068c7a0 https://www.gov.pl/attachment/dfc022ca-df40-4b81-94e4-44ef20... or: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.pl%2Fattachment%2Fdfc022ca-df40-4b81-94e4-44ef2068c7a0 https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...
wtmt 6y ago
This is just “security theater”, to put it in blunt terms. The number of smartphone users in India is around 500 million out of a nearly 1.4 billion population. Most of the smartphones are also cheap low end models that likely won’t support this app (and without a lot of battery drain and other issues). The app is also very intrusive in the amount of information it collects. It requires continuous GPS access. It uploads data to a server. There is no data protection or privacy law in India, even after privacy was declared as a fundamental right a few years ago. I read in a research pointed out in an Ars Technica article that contact tracing using technology starts providing more utility when 60% of the population uses it. That’s simply not possible in India. Interestingly, the information technology minister announced that there would soon be a solution for feature phones as well. For the requirement on phone manufacturers to pre-install this app on new phones, I hope at least Apple fights it out. We’ll soon know how strong Apple is on rights in certain countries.
- stefan_ 6y ago
  Schneier said it best: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-19_.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-1... "This is just something governments want to do for the hell of it. To me, it's just techies doing techie things because they don't know what else to do."
  - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
    I mean, he's not wrong. The world is scary as shit and after making lots of money building technology and being sold on 'making the world a better place' and it turning into making more money for someone else technologists have to feel that they should do something to help out. I've even fallen for that trap, writing a little Android app that can help businesses put up signs about COVID-19 after the 'grand reopening of the US' without realizing that most of those people will go bankrupt and have their live savings and have their future crushed by something we might not be able to stop without burying millions of Americans.
  - bronzeage 6y ago
    Well he's definitely mistaken: for example, in Israel, technological contact tracing (not an app tho) by the Shabak led to more than 500 confirmed cases which might not have been detected otherwise: https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992 https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992 And this was as early as 26 of march, so I bet it continued being significant.
wolfgke 6y ago
That is why you should throw your smartphone into the trash. If you have no smartphone, the government cannot mandate you to install an app on it.
ghuntley 6y ago
See my research thread at https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1256124427781062656 https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/12561244277810626... into the Australian contact tracing application. Pay close attention to the problems people are having when signing up and registering. Lack to response from the Government has been highly frustrating. Leadership is parroting amount of downloads as success but let's be honest it's a vanity metric if people are having signup issues (and they really are)
- ghuntley 6y ago
  We put together a panel of software engineers who studied the actual source code because the government had failed to provide a credible expert that the media could interface with. This caused many issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3dN99ljgD4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3dN99ljgD4
  - ghuntley 6y ago
    See previous discussion on HN at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22986147 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22986147
foobar_ 6y ago
Every single corporation out there is a totalitarian wet dream 1. Owns all your I.P "thoughts" while you are on the premises. 2. Monitors all your communication channels. 3. Can do drug / psychological testing if you are not performing efficiently. 4. Usually runs without direct democracy by a corrupt middle management. 5. Gives you an id number and laptop for easy tracking, blocks websites. 6. Has an elitist immigration policy via interviews, analogically speaking with easy access to discrimination by any number of ways 7. Has a class system delineated via dress code, bonuses and liability .... with the lower classes being held most accountable for making mistakes. 8. Upper class is also exempt from any mistakes and are more free to do what they want, like doing LSD or coke for productivity .... the lower classes like marijuana and alcohol. 9. Lead by a cult leader with a grand vision of utopia and megalomania. If you take a hard look at life, 1. Childhood - Parental authoritarianism 2. School / College - School authoritarianism 3. Adult Life - Corporate Authoritarianism So 20% of your life is in school and college you don't have any rights. And in adult life which is 30% of your life, you spend it in a corporate where you don't have rights. The rest 50% of your life you are weak and useless, unless you have influence. If you are going to give up rights for a corporate why not a state ? Do rights even matter ? The goal of the government or capitalism is work you to death anyways .... the only time you can exercise any rights is when you are unemployed or the weekend.
- elongatedMusku 6y ago
  I agree on almost all the points. Corporate and government are not the same. Government will beat you up or put you in jail. The worst that a company can do is take your job away (and maybe never get a job again).
pessimist 6y ago
The Privacy Policy is extremely dangerous and has been changed silently already. Although it claims to restrict the purpose and time of data collection, it coolly has 2 additional clauses which give blanket power. https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu-Privacy-Policies-Comparison.pdf https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu-Pr... "“The personal information collected will not be used for any purpose other than those mentioned in this Clause 2 save as required in order to comply with a legal requirement.” "All personal information collected from you under Clause 1(a) provided at the time of registration will be retained for as long as your account remains in existence and for such period thereafter as required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used or is otherwise required under any other law for the time being in force"
- GordonS 6y ago
  This policy is ridiculous - the phrasing is so broad as to allow almost any retention period and almost any use by any part of the government or security services. Which presumably is the point.
villgax 6y ago
What if I do not want to carry or own a fucking phone that app needs or heck even a data plan.
windex 6y ago
For whatever reason, whenever the Indian government does dystopian or downright anti-human shit, a whole bunch of apologists descend on threads to support the government. Does India have have a "50 cent party" like the Chinese do? Or is it a lack of civic/rights education in technical colleges in India? Ive noticed this even among Indian/Chinese expats that go complete nuts defending whoever they have in power back home.
- searchableguy 6y ago
  People defend the government until government doesn't need any defending to stay in power. I truly believe people in most threads genuinely want their party to win. They are doing it for themselves and image of India. They don't want to look inferior to foreigners. Indian schools teach patriotism from nursery. There is a reason why you have an hour long morning assembly to indoctrinate young kids into pledging loyalty to their country. Spreading misinformation about the nation along the way with skids on Fridays. You will often hear teacher calling hindi national language or misguiding people about the cultural values. The history class is ridden with errors. People pretend they have read mahabharat while they haven't. People pretend they know Gandhi while they don't. Maybe they do, but they seem to ignore everything from him being pedo to possibly engaging in homosexuality with German solider.
- ashleshbiradar 6y ago
  OH, yesss India has it's version of "50 cent party", and a huge "IT Cell" which deals with targeted campaigns against any one who speaks against them. But there's also a huge section of the population who do it on their own, maybe it's ideological alliance.
- mr_puzzled 6y ago
  The apologists support a right wing party known as the BJP which is in power. These people are not paid by the government or anything, it's that they genuinely believe in the hindutva ideology and this is the most concerning part. Good catch and watch out for this pattern to repeat itself.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
thelittleone 6y ago
This is seriously bad news and it will continue to unfold around the world until you can't take a piss behind a bush without the government knowing (it's happening back home in Australia too). The Australian PM stated [1] that further reopening is contingent on more installations of the contact tracing app. There are undoubtedly some within governments who see this is a wholly beneficent solution but getting this system in is a foot in the door to the ultimately authoritarian goal of surveillance nirvana. Within every government exists groups of people whose job is to dream up systems like this. One more giant bite out of the elephant that is privacy. Will it be abused? Even if governments had a perfect track record of respecting privacy and the stated intentions of technology it would still be cause for concern. But they don't... governments [1] and companies [2] have almost programmatically abused and overstepped because it's possible, profitable (economically and politically) and rarely if ever any consequence. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/morrison-says-early-mark-of-eased-restrictions-depends-on-uptake-of-covidsafe-tracing-app https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/morrison-says-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Ana...
ashleshbiradar 6y ago
Not just the workers, all news devices will come pre-installed with the mentioned app.
baybal2 6y ago
Bad time for Iphone users
krtkush 6y ago
Good thing I lost my job during these crises /s.
elongatedMusku 6y ago
Time to get a nokia. I should probably sell my phone at this point in time.
naveen99 6y ago
I wish they would work to eradicate food poisoning also while they are fighting the virus.
smdz 6y ago
For now, they are doing this in good intention. But they will not stop at that. Privacy is like a joke in India. This is just the beginning and just an app. Further they do plan to track citizen movements directly from the mobile towers, the app will not be required - it requires them to legally acquire live data from mobile companies. And they have found an excuse to make such privacy intrusion laws. It is making of a police state. There are a few officers in the govt advising against this, but the bottom line is that the govt does not trust the country's citizens. With Covid-19, the govt officials are publicly sharing the names and addresses of all positive people. The intention is good (to let others know whom to stay away from) and fortunately there is not much social stigma against infected people.
bsvsvdh 6y ago
People it cell trolls of the bjp has reached Hacker news. Brace for impact of extreme stupidity
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dkdk8283 6y ago
If you weren’t old enough to live through 9/11 and witness the transformation of the country you are probably being naive about contact tracing today. At first everyone was on board and patriot act was justified: we were under attack. There was no clear end of this attack, so the patriot act got renewed. We caught bin laden and killed him. Great! End of the patriot act? Nope, there was still a “threat”. 19 years later it’s normalized. I predict the same thing will happen here. There is no scenario in which this will not be abused.
- noirbot 6y ago
  I think some of the difference is that we went through all of that, and the NSA/Snowden leaks, and trust in the US government in general is at all-time lows. The fact that all that happened gives me hope and expectation that people are more suspect this time around.
  - throwaway122378 6y ago
    This time around nothing will be different. Panama papers came out and nothing happened, Epstein was involved in who knows what with royals, politicians, and the wealthy and nothing happened, Assange is a prisoner for exposing the truth and even the surveillance that Snowden brought to light is still taking place today.
- closeparen 6y ago
  What do you propose we do about it? The response to 9/11 seems so disproportionate because it presupposed the existence of thousands more plots, which never materialized. Preserving civil liberties would have been free. The spread of the virus is not a conspiracy theory or a what-if/abundance-of-caution proposition. It is an observable fact. There is no way the public tolerates the devastation that will definitely materialize if we go back to making arbitrary, untraceable contacts. If contact tracing is intolerable, then so is contact. At some point, people are going to be ready to repeal the 4th amendment if it means seeing their friends again.
  - xfitm3 6y ago
one2know 6y ago
"FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India." I kind of got the impression they don't like the police when watching "Extraction" which is an Indian movie with Chris Hemsworth in which they mow down cops for an hour.
- itpragmatik 6y ago
  They mod down Bangladeshi cops; not Indian cops. The "extraction" happens in Bangladesh; not in India.
jlokier 6y ago
Perhaps one of the best things to come out of publically documented efforts by Google, Apple and other researchers, is that in any country with a half-functioning legal system, lawsuits against the sort of app ordered by India can realistically point to a more privacy-oriented mechanism and ask "what is your defence for not using that instead". I've been attending a zero-knowledge crypto conference recently and it is really interesting to see that all sorts of policy measures can be implemented in ways while continuing to preserve tbe private details of individuals. Unfortunately the tech and math is not yet mature or ubiquitous enough for it to be assumed as the default way to do what India wants to do. Eventually it may be. Meanwhile, I'm please the Google-Apple thing is being looked at, and pleased it is done openly enough to get expert scrutiny from a vsariety of perspectives.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  A system that relies on Google to enforce the privacy rights of citizens is a system that has already failed.
tradewarsonlyn 6y ago
The government might have good intent, but this is how totalitarian regimes begin: through a steady erosion of rights and choice. The taste of totalitarian power is known to be severely addictive that degenerates progressively. It is like a lion that tastes human flesh, turns into maneater and cannot go back. Edit: spell fix
codedrop 6y ago
Can i see the source code?
guug 6y ago
Given the current government's political leanings and recent actions, couldn't this lead to further human rights abuses of "unwanted" minorities? Google should block that app the same way they refused to assist with China's abuses.
fellellor 6y ago
This is a publicity disaster. The government should have packaged it with a cute game, like how Nintendo did with street pass, to make it more ethical and acceptable. I’d have joined Indian Stasi for some Mario.
rochak 6y ago
This is just so bad for privacy. The people in India don’t care about privacy much, but this will put an end to the attempts of those who did, including me. The worst part is, not many are going to criticise it anyway and it’s gonna happen.
sifar 6y ago
A fish which finds the ocean not habitable, either moves to different waters or evolves to filter out the surrounding. It does not try to change nature of the ocean.
sanmon3186 6y ago
Can anyone explain the effectiveness of such apps that are being used by some countries. If the apps help, isn’t there an argument of “life vs. privacy”, And if these app don’t, then why isn’t the effectiveness being challenged. I understand the privacy advocacy but in matters of life and death (that is how a common man perceives covid-19), unless the effectiveness of Coronavirus solutions is dumbed down, this argument will continue. Till then people will see the app download as their contribution to this fight.
kanhasahu 6y ago
Help chayiya

244 points by caution 6y ago

The covid choice: 1) you jail your poulation for 2 years, 2) you adopt a police-state, 3) you accept 1% of your population will die. Seems that India is going for 2).

searchableguy 6y ago
Buffer stock gets wasted every year or mysteriously stolen. They stock more than they need to for some odd reasons again (oh yeah, they need to have something to sell in the black market). 7k+ people die every day due to hunger in india. If government cared when they could easily solve this. (3k are kids). So I don't think it's about people. [Removed]
- ben_w 6y ago
  1% of India’s population is 13.4 million people. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%25%20of%20India%20population http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%25%20of%20India%20pop... That is 1913 days of deaths by starvation at the rate you specify. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%25%20of%20India%20population%2F7000%20people%20per%20day http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%25%20of%20India%20pop... Five and a quarter years.
  - searchableguy 6y ago
    How many people are dead due to covid so far? I am making a bad faith argument but that doesn't mean proposing the 1% of entire country will die due to not having a privacy invasive contact tracing app.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      1% is the approximate fatality rate with treatment. 1% is the “good” (less bad) outcome if everyone catches it in a controlled rate before vaccinations are ready. You only get less than that with a lockdown of some sort. You get way more than that if the medical system can’t keep up with demand. What’s the medical system like in India these days?
      - searchableguy 6y ago
        I don't understand where you are going with this. Can you show me that contact tracing can make significant difference? If not, then I won't consider the other points as they are simply irrelevant. Without the setu app being mandatory, going by government figures (which I doubt somewhat), only about 1.2k people have died so far. I will consider that as a starting point and compare this to all the unnecessary deaths that happen in the country which government blatantly ignores. And we still spend 3.6% of the total GDP on the healthcare so not really good. Could be anecdote but I am seeing less specialists in india and more dentists, dermatologist, and cosmetics. Government hospitals are still unhygienic where I live so I won't even consider going there.
        sbmthakur 6y ago
        > Without the setu app being mandatory, going by government figures (which I doubt somewhat), only about 1.2k people have died so far. That's probably because we are in a strict lockdown which is not sustainable. The real effect of contract-tracing will be only be known when the economy is fully opened.
        ben_w 6y ago
        > Can you show me that contact tracing can make significant difference? It’s a standard technique that has been successfully used for a long time. For example, it’s how smallpox was finally wiped out. (This is a separate point to “does this particular app look suspicious?” to which I say “yes”). > going by government figures (which I doubt somewhat), only under 1k people have died so far. In India, which is doing the things you’re complaining about. Meanwhile, the USA, which has less than a quarter of India’s population, has 65,605. Are you familiar with exponential growth, or do you only ever see the word “exponential” used to mean “rapid” without the strict mathematical meaning?
- jjgreen 6y ago
  I'm not sure I understand -- you seem to think I'm making a "bad faith argument", rather I see it as an observation. China has gone for 2) (not that they weren't a police state already), Sweden for 3), the rest of Europe seems to be inching towards 2). Do you have a different view? (genuinely interested). No need to worry about me getting scam calls, I don't have a phone.
  - searchableguy 6y ago
    Taking a second look, I will apologise. I was biased in how I perceived it. Every indian thread makes me paranoid because I feel there is an IT mob hired or some invisible force trying to get it off the front-page or reverse the criticism. It's always the same names making rebuttal to comments, same downvote waves, and they try to put more comments than the upvotes to automatically kill the submission.
0xmohit 6y ago
India was always a surveillance state in the making, thanks to Aadhaar. The Indian government is now utilizing the crisis to fast-pace the process. Not only are they planning to make the contact tracing app registration on new phones mandatory, they're also planning to bring the app to feature phones. Source: Aarogya Setu coming on feature phones; to cover the entire country https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-setu-coming-on-feature-phones-to-cover-the-entire-country/articleshow/75493148.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-s...
- jjgreen 6y ago
  Interesting, thanks. "Never let a good crisis go to waste."
- sbmthakur 6y ago
  Has Aadhaar been used for surveilling people?
  - wtmt 6y ago
    Yes, and even for knocking people off of voter lists in Andhra Pradesh.
    - sbmthakur 6y ago
      Any reference for that? Voters list is routinely updated.
- aplthxa 6y ago
  Would the downvoters care to explain their actions. Aadhaar has been under fire for a long time and this seems like a factual comment. It seems that one cannot criticize India or China on HN.
ekianjo 6y ago
where is the 1% coming from?
quantummkv 6y ago
Which is a lot better than 1) and 3), unless you are a glove carrying member of the Cult of Thanos. Saying that some part of the population will die and should be left to die only seems like a very good idea when you are not in that part of the population. And I really don't know where the 1% number is from. What guarantee you have that the number won't be 10%? 25%? 50%?
- jjgreen 6y ago
  The 1% seems to be the death rate for the infected when there is healthcare available (i.e., not overloaded). I'm not a member of a cult, but I would much rather have a 1% chance of dying than spend my life in a police-state. That's my personal preference (and yes, I am an old fart, so I have skin in this game).
greglindahl 6y ago
Are these the only choices, or are there more? I haven't seen any medical leader or government leader present these as the only choices.
- therealdrag0 6y ago
  Parent comment is generalizing. “Being in lockdown” is “jailing citizens”. Contact tracing is “surveillance state” etc

vijaybritto 6y ago

The govt says that we don't have to worry about privacy because our data is safe with them!! :D. Also they ask for lot more permissions than location

searchableguy 6y ago
I don't think some of that is due to malice but incompetence/disregard for privacy in the IT sweatshops that produced it.
- plinkplonk 6y ago
  >the IT sweatshops that produced it. "The app, conceived by NITI Aayog, has been developed in two weeks by the National Informatics Centre in collaboration with the developers of makemytrip.com and 1mg.com." [1] None of these are sweatshops. [1] https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/guest-column/story/20200427-the-lsquo-long-arm-rsquo-of-an-app-1668042-2020-04-18 https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/guest-column/story/202004...
  - as1mov 6y ago
    I am sure an app developed in 2 weeks will be very secure. Incidentally, I've worked with a bunch of ex-MMT developers for quite sometime, I wouldn't consider most of them very competent.
    - searchableguy 6y ago
      https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d50 https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d5... Here are the permissions it seems to use. I am surprised it's not as draconian as some other government released apps.
eqtn 6y ago
The app also talks to firebase database[0] for storing something [0] https://covid19-6c396.firebaseio.com https://covid19-6c396.firebaseio.com

searchableguy 6y ago

Reminder that the same government has leaked billions of records so far. More leaks than the people in the entire country. One example - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/01/04/a-security-breach-in-india-has-left-a-billion-people-at-risk-of-identity-theft/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/01/04... And you can find many. You won't get anyone caring about privacy in government offices. A lot of government workers here are negligent pension parasites. I expect the same in most parts. I know of a few sites where they don't do any validation on the server side and it's easy to fake being authenticated by sending an additional header. There are quite a few sites with firebase without any granular validation or access control implemented. Some even allow SQL injection attacks using some old php framework. I sent them email but no response. And Frankly speaking, I would be very worried about sending anything security related to government without using some anonymous non traceable email because you might be put into jail. They can't even handle surges in scale. Most government sites are broken. Any student who has ever had to deal with it knows it. Any business person who depends on those sites for approval knows it. They also require biometrics to sign in some of those sites now. Absolutely baffling with no alternative. This is absolutely bad. More so as when they want to release personal protection data bill around September - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Data_Protection_Bill_2019 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Data_Protection_Bil... Obligatory internet shutdowns - https://internetshutdowns.in/ https://internetshutdowns.in/ Jio using sni to block sites - https://cis-india.org/internet-governance/blog/reliance-jio-is-using-sni-inspection-to-block-websites https://cis-india.org/internet-governance/blog/reliance-jio-... They block more than porn sites including vpns and normal communication tools - https://qz.com/india/1547142/not-just-porn-indian-telecom-firms-are-blocking-other-websites-too/ https://qz.com/india/1547142/not-just-porn-indian-telecom-fi... This is a surveillance state in the making.

ashleshbiradar 6y ago
Yep India tops the list of Internet Shutdowns, they shutdown the internet for petty reasons like "school exams" so that kids don't cheat or the paper won't "leak" to shutting down internet whenever there is a mass agitation. Kashmir is an entire different thing, its been more than 8 months that the entire state has no full access to the internet.

mr_puzzled 6y ago

I don't think people realize the gravity of what's being done. While google and apple design nice apis which can do contact tracing while maintaining privacy, that's not how contact tracing will be implemented as shown by this app. It requires : - a mobile phone number - location and bluetooth, always on - name,profession The mobile number part concerns me. Government wants to use it as a way to contact people but the potential for abuse is there. Installing this app is mandatory for public and private companies. So if you are an employee, you have no choice in the matter. It's like a surveillance state in the making. They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works. To top it all off, non compliance is a criminal offence. FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India. Random cops stopping to ensure you have the app installed? Happening. Non complaince? Do situps, get beaten with a lathi. I wish I was joking. Edit : Manufactures will need to preinstall it on new devices. You can see where this is going. More reading : - https://internetfreedom.in/workers-privacy-during-covid-19/ https://internetfreedom.in/workers-privacy-during-covid-19/ - https://internetfreedom.in/45-organizations-and-105-prominent-individuals-push-back-against-the-coercion-of-aarogya-setu/ https://internetfreedom.in/45-organizations-and-105-prominen... - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/how-to-use-aarogya-setu-app-and-find-out-if-you-have-covid-19-symptoms/articleshow/75023152.cms?from=mdr https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/how-to-us...

dmos62 6y ago
I don't see an advantage of such an app over carrier level tracking (for the purposes of enforcing quarantine or social distancing). It has loads of advantages if you want this to also serve unrelated population surveillance purposes.
- ben_w 6y ago
  I may be out of date with the tech, but doesn’t carrier-level tracking only give you the cell tower that you are closest to? And even then, not always?
  - 6y ago

ferros 6y ago

The real question is, after this all dies down, will these apps be repurposed and become the new normal?

arpa 6y ago
You betcha!
- eklavya 6y ago
  How much would you be willing to bet on this?
  - arpa 6y ago
    All the historical data of governments taking "emergency powers" and not letting them go afterwards.
    - eklavya 6y ago
      Let me rephrase, how much are you willing to bet that this app will be mandatory to be installed after the Covid crisis is over?
      - arpa 6y ago
        I am not a gambler, but let's say $5 if you really wish to get money involved. Or a bottle of scotch.
      - plinkplonk 6y ago
        (I am Indian and live in India fwiw) How about 10k Rs to be donated to the winner's favorite charity? How about 1 January 2022 as a settlement date? If the app is still mandatory on that date, I win, else you do.
        eklavya 6y ago
        I will gladly take you up on that :) Bonus that whoever wins, money goes to a charity too.

arpa 6y ago

This is beyond fucked up! Faraday cages? Fake apps? What's the tech solution for this problem?

kd5bjo 6y ago
Paper maps and landline telephones
- arpa 6y ago
  Well if the law mandates you to have an employer (or government) - issued smartphone you MUST have on you at all times, this is going to result in fines and/or incarceration.
  - wtmt 6y ago
    They’ll go with ankle monitor kind of things for that. There was recent news about a tender floated by the government to get wrist straps to monitor infected and quarantined people (that report was later debunked). But some countries are looking at “wearables”.
Figs 6y ago
The short term solution is to turn your phone off. If plausible deniability is needed, just let the battery ran out. Long term, the proper solution is political rather than technical though.
- arpa 6y ago
  Funny how simple solutions often elude us. Agreed re: long term.
- kranner 6y ago
  Finally a use for old smartphones that no longer boot.

sn41 6y ago

1. If the data is collected anonymously, why is the mobile number required? 2. What if an employee has only a feature phone, not a smartphone?

arpa 6y ago
1. "Anonymously" - it's just a phone number, no names... /s 2. Employer buys a smartphone for employee to confirm to gov requirements.
- mikro2nd 6y ago
  3. Employee "forgets" phone in desk drawer/locker when going home every evening.
  - jlokier 6y ago
    4. Employee convicted of not carrying their tracking device. Beatings continue until morale improves.
mr_puzzled 6y ago
1. It's not anonymous in any way, just some bullshit marketing speak. 2. These mfers are building the app for feature phones as well. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-setu-coming-on-feature-phones-to-cover-the-entire-country/articleshow/75493148.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-s...
- ateevchopra 6y ago
  "1. It's not anonymous in any way, just some bullshit marketing speak. " Source ?
  - mr_puzzled 6y ago
    What source do you want? The app literally asks for your phone number, name, profession. Which of these details make you think "anonymous" has any meaning at all.

codegladiator 6y ago

damned if you do, damned if you don't.\ To everyone who is pointing out the obvious negatives, why don't you go into govt jobs making these apps/policies and do what you believe is correct/perfect. I couldn't like this approach of mandatory app lesser, but 'lets not do it because it has potential for abuse' cliche needs to phase out.

NewLogic 6y ago
> why don't you go into govt jobs making these apps/policies and do what you believe is correct/perfect. What is this, the youtube comment section? Nah, terrible take. These systems are being pushed through multiple democracies by governments trading on fear and the false promises of safety.
- codegladiator 6y ago
  > What is this, the youtube comment section? Nah maybe it should be. a wider variety of takes is available on youtube comment section. your rest of the comment is again just absolute worst of what you can say about the govt in one sweep. nobody is saying indian govt is the best.
  - NewLogic 6y ago
    The argument of "If you can do a better job, why haven't you already?" is an extremely lazy gotcha on all levels. As for the rest of my comment, it is merely commenting on recorded shifts in social democracies with 911 being a highlighted turning point aided by the rise of the digital economy.
searchableguy 6y ago
You see, india is way bigger than Singapore or many smaller countries that were able to create more privacy friendly apps than this. And you can find many open source tools/spec as well. Even after all that, the government is going with this? Also, it's not about the app but past behaviour of the government. It doesn't seem sincere in the slightest. And democracy makes it so you can't change something if the masses doesn't want it and the masses don't care. And if you want to change masses, remember that many famous people who changed the world were killed or lynched by the mob. People are not altruistic. If they think something can benefit them somewhat, they will do it but if there are no upsides, only downsides. Why would you do it?

0xmohit 6y ago

The government of India is making it mandatory for all new smartphones to be sold in India post lifting of the lockdown to not just have the app as a pre-installed service, but also ensure that individuals register on it and set it up, before beginning to use their new smartphones. Source: Aarogya Setu Registration Will be Mandatory to Setup New Phone: Govt Sources https://www.news18.com/news/tech/aarogya-setu-registration-will-be-mandatory-to-setup-new-phone-govt-sources-2599197.html https://www.news18.com/news/tech/aarogya-setu-registration-w...

Razengan 6y ago
I hope Apple will continue to win in the fight to keep third-party bloatware off iPhones, like they did versus AT&T when it first came out.
- krtkush 6y ago
  I don't have much hope even as an Apple user. Apple will bend over because it has done so before in case of China. Apple will be in no mood to let go of the huge inroads it has made into the Indian smartphone market in the past one year.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
plinkplonk 6y ago
How does this work with Apple phones? Will apple make set up of their phones dependent on installing government spyware first? How do they handle this in China? And does this mean that android permissions no longer work? What if people just make location and gps unavailable to the app after installation?
- greglindahl 6y ago
  Apple was already in a fight with India about app store approval of government-developed apps.

sbmthakur 6y ago

What if I disable/give up mobile data? I seriously doubt they can ensure compliance in this case. Maybe they will ask companies to add it in their compliance requirements.

deno 6y ago
Why do you think you will be able to disable cellular modem in the future? You won’t have that option. Also Apple’s tracing works offline via Bluetooth.
- sbmthakur 6y ago
  > Also Apple’s tracing works via Bluetooth. That's what I was expecting from this app too. This particular app won't work without cellular-data enabled. > You won’t have that option. Could you explain this is a bit? Why can't I disable it on my phone?
  - deno 6y ago
    Baseband processors already operate independently with its own operating system and often have greater access than the application processor. Simple firmware update is all it takes right now to have it not turn itself off. CIA actively uses this capability on select targets, as per Snowden leaks, even when the phone is “off.”
    - wtmt 6y ago
      I think this is an old understanding that doesn’t apply any longer to good modern phones.
      - deno 6y ago
        We’re talking about future phones.
    - anticensor 6y ago
      Cellular modem that stays enabled despite user "disabling" will indicate itself by a quickly draining battery. Airplane mode and sleep data have much different battery consumption profiles. Indian people are not that stupid, and this will lead to a violent protest unlike China.

buboard 6y ago

Over time this will lead to backlash towards mobile technologies from people. Not that big tech does not deserve it after decade of pushing hard on surveillance tech and telling governments how great it is. No country wants a completely anonymous app because it's useless. And abuses like these show already the ugly side of it. If i knew my phone is bugged, i d leave it at home.

r00f 6y ago

I'm just wondering, what if a person doesnt have smartphone? There are many elderly people who still have Nokia 1100 or something like that, and do not care. Will they get beaten every day? Or if this is mandatory, will the government provide free devices to everyone?

deno 6y ago
In Poland they make people install government issued App or declare[1] under threat of perjury that you don’t own a suitable device. > will the government provide free devices to everyone? Free and subdermal. /s [1] https://www.gov.pl/attachment/f3014313-bed3-4012-98fa-ea35bf71dc2d https://www.gov.pl/attachment/f3014313-bed3-4012-98fa-ea35bf...
- cryptica 6y ago
  Nice, I hope these Nokia phones make a comeback. I miss the long battery life.
  - kwhitefoot 6y ago
    I've just checked that my old LG flip phone still works, perhaps I'll have to start using it.
- bobx11 6y ago
  First I’m seeing this, is it only for when you cross the border into Poland?
  - deno 6y ago
    It’s for the imposed quarantine, so my understanding is if you cross the border or have a positive test. More information: https://www.gov.pl/attachment/dfc022ca-df40-4b81-94e4-44ef2068c7a0 https://www.gov.pl/attachment/dfc022ca-df40-4b81-94e4-44ef20... or: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.pl%2Fattachment%2Fdfc022ca-df40-4b81-94e4-44ef2068c7a0 https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...

wtmt 6y ago

This is just “security theater”, to put it in blunt terms. The number of smartphone users in India is around 500 million out of a nearly 1.4 billion population. Most of the smartphones are also cheap low end models that likely won’t support this app (and without a lot of battery drain and other issues). The app is also very intrusive in the amount of information it collects. It requires continuous GPS access. It uploads data to a server. There is no data protection or privacy law in India, even after privacy was declared as a fundamental right a few years ago. I read in a research pointed out in an Ars Technica article that contact tracing using technology starts providing more utility when 60% of the population uses it. That’s simply not possible in India. Interestingly, the information technology minister announced that there would soon be a solution for feature phones as well. For the requirement on phone manufacturers to pre-install this app on new phones, I hope at least Apple fights it out. We’ll soon know how strong Apple is on rights in certain countries.

stefan_ 6y ago
Schneier said it best: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-19_.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-1... "This is just something governments want to do for the hell of it. To me, it's just techies doing techie things because they don't know what else to do."
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  I mean, he's not wrong. The world is scary as shit and after making lots of money building technology and being sold on 'making the world a better place' and it turning into making more money for someone else technologists have to feel that they should do something to help out. I've even fallen for that trap, writing a little Android app that can help businesses put up signs about COVID-19 after the 'grand reopening of the US' without realizing that most of those people will go bankrupt and have their live savings and have their future crushed by something we might not be able to stop without burying millions of Americans.
- bronzeage 6y ago
  Well he's definitely mistaken: for example, in Israel, technological contact tracing (not an app tho) by the Shabak led to more than 500 confirmed cases which might not have been detected otherwise: https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992 https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992 And this was as early as 26 of march, so I bet it continued being significant.

wolfgke 6y ago

That is why you should throw your smartphone into the trash. If you have no smartphone, the government cannot mandate you to install an app on it.

ghuntley 6y ago

See my research thread at https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1256124427781062656 https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/12561244277810626... into the Australian contact tracing application. Pay close attention to the problems people are having when signing up and registering. Lack to response from the Government has been highly frustrating. Leadership is parroting amount of downloads as success but let's be honest it's a vanity metric if people are having signup issues (and they really are)

ghuntley 6y ago
We put together a panel of software engineers who studied the actual source code because the government had failed to provide a credible expert that the media could interface with. This caused many issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3dN99ljgD4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3dN99ljgD4
- ghuntley 6y ago
  See previous discussion on HN at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22986147 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22986147

foobar_ 6y ago

Every single corporation out there is a totalitarian wet dream 1. Owns all your I.P "thoughts" while you are on the premises. 2. Monitors all your communication channels. 3. Can do drug / psychological testing if you are not performing efficiently. 4. Usually runs without direct democracy by a corrupt middle management. 5. Gives you an id number and laptop for easy tracking, blocks websites. 6. Has an elitist immigration policy via interviews, analogically speaking with easy access to discrimination by any number of ways 7. Has a class system delineated via dress code, bonuses and liability .... with the lower classes being held most accountable for making mistakes. 8. Upper class is also exempt from any mistakes and are more free to do what they want, like doing LSD or coke for productivity .... the lower classes like marijuana and alcohol. 9. Lead by a cult leader with a grand vision of utopia and megalomania. If you take a hard look at life, 1. Childhood - Parental authoritarianism 2. School / College - School authoritarianism 3. Adult Life - Corporate Authoritarianism So 20% of your life is in school and college you don't have any rights. And in adult life which is 30% of your life, you spend it in a corporate where you don't have rights. The rest 50% of your life you are weak and useless, unless you have influence. If you are going to give up rights for a corporate why not a state ? Do rights even matter ? The goal of the government or capitalism is work you to death anyways .... the only time you can exercise any rights is when you are unemployed or the weekend.

elongatedMusku 6y ago
I agree on almost all the points. Corporate and government are not the same. Government will beat you up or put you in jail. The worst that a company can do is take your job away (and maybe never get a job again).

pessimist 6y ago

The Privacy Policy is extremely dangerous and has been changed silently already. Although it claims to restrict the purpose and time of data collection, it coolly has 2 additional clauses which give blanket power. https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu-Privacy-Policies-Comparison.pdf https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu-Pr... "“The personal information collected will not be used for any purpose other than those mentioned in this Clause 2 save as required in order to comply with a legal requirement.” "All personal information collected from you under Clause 1(a) provided at the time of registration will be retained for as long as your account remains in existence and for such period thereafter as required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used or is otherwise required under any other law for the time being in force"

GordonS 6y ago
This policy is ridiculous - the phrasing is so broad as to allow almost any retention period and almost any use by any part of the government or security services. Which presumably is the point.

villgax 6y ago

What if I do not want to carry or own a fucking phone that app needs or heck even a data plan.

windex 6y ago

For whatever reason, whenever the Indian government does dystopian or downright anti-human shit, a whole bunch of apologists descend on threads to support the government. Does India have have a "50 cent party" like the Chinese do? Or is it a lack of civic/rights education in technical colleges in India? Ive noticed this even among Indian/Chinese expats that go complete nuts defending whoever they have in power back home.

searchableguy 6y ago
People defend the government until government doesn't need any defending to stay in power. I truly believe people in most threads genuinely want their party to win. They are doing it for themselves and image of India. They don't want to look inferior to foreigners. Indian schools teach patriotism from nursery. There is a reason why you have an hour long morning assembly to indoctrinate young kids into pledging loyalty to their country. Spreading misinformation about the nation along the way with skids on Fridays. You will often hear teacher calling hindi national language or misguiding people about the cultural values. The history class is ridden with errors. People pretend they have read mahabharat while they haven't. People pretend they know Gandhi while they don't. Maybe they do, but they seem to ignore everything from him being pedo to possibly engaging in homosexuality with German solider.
ashleshbiradar 6y ago
OH, yesss India has it's version of "50 cent party", and a huge "IT Cell" which deals with targeted campaigns against any one who speaks against them. But there's also a huge section of the population who do it on their own, maybe it's ideological alliance.
mr_puzzled 6y ago
The apologists support a right wing party known as the BJP which is in power. These people are not paid by the government or anything, it's that they genuinely believe in the hindutva ideology and this is the most concerning part. Good catch and watch out for this pattern to repeat itself.
A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

thelittleone 6y ago

This is seriously bad news and it will continue to unfold around the world until you can't take a piss behind a bush without the government knowing (it's happening back home in Australia too). The Australian PM stated [1] that further reopening is contingent on more installations of the contact tracing app. There are undoubtedly some within governments who see this is a wholly beneficent solution but getting this system in is a foot in the door to the ultimately authoritarian goal of surveillance nirvana. Within every government exists groups of people whose job is to dream up systems like this. One more giant bite out of the elephant that is privacy. Will it be abused? Even if governments had a perfect track record of respecting privacy and the stated intentions of technology it would still be cause for concern. But they don't... governments [1] and companies [2] have almost programmatically abused and overstepped because it's possible, profitable (economically and politically) and rarely if ever any consequence. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/morrison-says-early-mark-of-eased-restrictions-depends-on-uptake-of-covidsafe-tracing-app https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/morrison-says-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Ana...

ashleshbiradar 6y ago

Not just the workers, all news devices will come pre-installed with the mentioned app.

baybal2 6y ago

Bad time for Iphone users

krtkush 6y ago

Good thing I lost my job during these crises /s.

elongatedMusku 6y ago

Time to get a nokia. I should probably sell my phone at this point in time.

naveen99 6y ago

I wish they would work to eradicate food poisoning also while they are fighting the virus.

smdz 6y ago

For now, they are doing this in good intention. But they will not stop at that. Privacy is like a joke in India. This is just the beginning and just an app. Further they do plan to track citizen movements directly from the mobile towers, the app will not be required - it requires them to legally acquire live data from mobile companies. And they have found an excuse to make such privacy intrusion laws. It is making of a police state. There are a few officers in the govt advising against this, but the bottom line is that the govt does not trust the country's citizens. With Covid-19, the govt officials are publicly sharing the names and addresses of all positive people. The intention is good (to let others know whom to stay away from) and fortunately there is not much social stigma against infected people.

bsvsvdh 6y ago

People it cell trolls of the bjp has reached Hacker news. Brace for impact of extreme stupidity

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dkdk8283 6y ago

If you weren’t old enough to live through 9/11 and witness the transformation of the country you are probably being naive about contact tracing today. At first everyone was on board and patriot act was justified: we were under attack. There was no clear end of this attack, so the patriot act got renewed. We caught bin laden and killed him. Great! End of the patriot act? Nope, there was still a “threat”. 19 years later it’s normalized. I predict the same thing will happen here. There is no scenario in which this will not be abused.

noirbot 6y ago
I think some of the difference is that we went through all of that, and the NSA/Snowden leaks, and trust in the US government in general is at all-time lows. The fact that all that happened gives me hope and expectation that people are more suspect this time around.
- throwaway122378 6y ago
  This time around nothing will be different. Panama papers came out and nothing happened, Epstein was involved in who knows what with royals, politicians, and the wealthy and nothing happened, Assange is a prisoner for exposing the truth and even the surveillance that Snowden brought to light is still taking place today.
closeparen 6y ago
What do you propose we do about it? The response to 9/11 seems so disproportionate because it presupposed the existence of thousands more plots, which never materialized. Preserving civil liberties would have been free. The spread of the virus is not a conspiracy theory or a what-if/abundance-of-caution proposition. It is an observable fact. There is no way the public tolerates the devastation that will definitely materialize if we go back to making arbitrary, untraceable contacts. If contact tracing is intolerable, then so is contact. At some point, people are going to be ready to repeal the 4th amendment if it means seeing their friends again.
- xfitm3 6y ago

one2know 6y ago

"FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India." I kind of got the impression they don't like the police when watching "Extraction" which is an Indian movie with Chris Hemsworth in which they mow down cops for an hour.

itpragmatik 6y ago
They mod down Bangladeshi cops; not Indian cops. The "extraction" happens in Bangladesh; not in India.

jlokier 6y ago

Perhaps one of the best things to come out of publically documented efforts by Google, Apple and other researchers, is that in any country with a half-functioning legal system, lawsuits against the sort of app ordered by India can realistically point to a more privacy-oriented mechanism and ask "what is your defence for not using that instead". I've been attending a zero-knowledge crypto conference recently and it is really interesting to see that all sorts of policy measures can be implemented in ways while continuing to preserve tbe private details of individuals. Unfortunately the tech and math is not yet mature or ubiquitous enough for it to be assumed as the default way to do what India wants to do. Eventually it may be. Meanwhile, I'm please the Google-Apple thing is being looked at, and pleased it is done openly enough to get expert scrutiny from a vsariety of perspectives.

elliekelly 6y ago
A system that relies on Google to enforce the privacy rights of citizens is a system that has already failed.

tradewarsonlyn 6y ago

The government might have good intent, but this is how totalitarian regimes begin: through a steady erosion of rights and choice. The taste of totalitarian power is known to be severely addictive that degenerates progressively. It is like a lion that tastes human flesh, turns into maneater and cannot go back. Edit: spell fix

codedrop 6y ago

Can i see the source code?

guug 6y ago

Given the current government's political leanings and recent actions, couldn't this lead to further human rights abuses of "unwanted" minorities? Google should block that app the same way they refused to assist with China's abuses.

fellellor 6y ago

This is a publicity disaster. The government should have packaged it with a cute game, like how Nintendo did with street pass, to make it more ethical and acceptable. I’d have joined Indian Stasi for some Mario.

rochak 6y ago

This is just so bad for privacy. The people in India don’t care about privacy much, but this will put an end to the attempts of those who did, including me. The worst part is, not many are going to criticise it anyway and it’s gonna happen.

sifar 6y ago

A fish which finds the ocean not habitable, either moves to different waters or evolves to filter out the surrounding. It does not try to change nature of the ocean.

sanmon3186 6y ago

Can anyone explain the effectiveness of such apps that are being used by some countries. If the apps help, isn’t there an argument of “life vs. privacy”, And if these app don’t, then why isn’t the effectiveness being challenged. I understand the privacy advocacy but in matters of life and death (that is how a common man perceives covid-19), unless the effectiveness of Coronavirus solutions is dumbed down, this argument will continue. Till then people will see the app download as their contribution to this fight.

kanhasahu 6y ago

Help chayiya