7 ms·

I agree with what you are saying, except that we shouldn't say students are unequipped to evaluate the "bet" merely for being young and inexperienced. If we wan

by abnry 6y ago

I agree with what you are saying, except that we shouldn't say students are unequipped to evaluate the "bet" merely for being young and inexperienced. If we wanted to, we could train students to be much better at evaluating such a bet.

gwd 6y ago
But the reason interest-bearing loans were considered immoral for so long, and the reason that nearly every other kind of loan can be discharged through bankruptcy, is that it is too dangerous to allow anyone to offer such a loan. There's nothing magical about student loans that somehow makes them safe, and no amount of training will change that.
rch 6y ago
> we could train students to be much better at evaluating such a bet Maybe... but we could definitely alter the nature of risk involved. Why not reduce cost of tuition (e.g. <$1K/semester), while raising the bar on academic rigor as a means of controlling demand?
- eldavido 6y ago
  This is probably what's going to happen, but only if we take a LOT of human labor out of it. Either that, or accept that every class will be huge (200-500 students) with minimal attention given to students, no office hours, and low-paid labor doing all the grunt work (grading, answering questions) I see a lot of parallels to medicine here. Both are highly regulated and seen as a "right" we ought to fund. Maybe, but until we achieve greater labor leverage (made even harder by professional credentialing in medicine), there just won't be a way to drive costs down much, so we're stuck with what we have.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    College at $60k a semester while an adjunct earns $28k a year and somehow this doesn't result in a 1:1 student:teacher ratio means someone's skimming off a ton of money.
    - eldavido 6y ago
      Skimming or cross-subsidizing? Part of the problem with universities IMO is the accounting for revenue<->expenses isn't at all straightforward. Athletics generate a ton more money than they cost, most people seem fine with that. Research generates no revenue but costs a ton, for some hard-to-quantify but (hopefully?) real benefit to society at large. Tuition is nominally for teaching, which is a big cost center for a university. And, at least in the US, all the costs are split between the national government, the state government (who has the pleasure of educating people who may not live in that state long-term?) and tuition, and various donors and grants. A system ripe for disruption, if ever there was one.
      - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
        I have no idea why anyone would say "research generates no revenues" when most universities have systems to spin out viable research and profit from it. Universities quite literally profit financially from patented research funded by taxpayers. The government gets no direct return on this, and the usual argument is that it increases economic activity and raises the tax take - which may be true, but it's still a uniquely privileged position. But most universities are more about property speculation and bequest farming than they are about education or R&D. The system is entirely corporatised and often predatory. Professors are only as valuable as the grant income they generate, adjuncts are gig economy labour, students are a barely-tolerated annoyance, and property speculation and "administration" are considered the central mission.
      - madhadron 6y ago
        For the university, research in the sciences brings in way more money than it costs, and subsidizes a lot of other things. Most professors in physics, chemistry, etc. largely pay their own salaries out of grants.
      - FireBeyond 6y ago
        Exactly, why are young students footing a disproportionate load for “society-benefiting research” as part of their tuition? And paying interest for it. That’s amazingly unfair.
lordnacho 6y ago
The kind of knowledge you need to evaluate this is something that is normally taught in college. What high school teaches decision making under uncertainty, along with economic history and statistics? I mean sure we could try to teach kids this stuff, and I certainly aim to tech my kids, but it's not what's been done in the past at secondary school.
- abnry 6y ago
  Isn't that then a gigantic failure of high school then? If there is one thing we need to prepare students for, isn't it how to start making career decisions?
  - lordnacho 6y ago
    If that's a goal of high school, then yes, it's a huge failing. There's also a bunch of other useful stuff they don't teach you, like cooking and how to wash your clothes. There's no coherent idea of what school is supposed to be, though. Is it a place to learn a bunch of practical skills? Or a place to read about some interesting ideas? All those things take time and money, and we end up with a school that does a bunch of different stuff with no real plan.
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      Our town used to have the Mechanics' Academy. A 12-week study program to learn enough math to balance, books, amortize a loan, calculate weights and measures, figure load limits. Graduates were very employable. My Mom's Grandfather was one. Long ago demolished and turned into a Mall during Urban Renewal.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  It's really too bad that high schools do not teach basic accounting, compound interest, and how the free market system works. Things people need to know to function in our society.
  - 6y ago

by abnry 6y ago

gwd 6y ago

But the reason interest-bearing loans were considered immoral for so long, and the reason that nearly every other kind of loan can be discharged through bankruptcy, is that it is too dangerous to allow anyone to offer such a loan. There's nothing magical about student loans that somehow makes them safe, and no amount of training will change that.

rch 6y ago

> we could train students to be much better at evaluating such a bet Maybe... but we could definitely alter the nature of risk involved. Why not reduce cost of tuition (e.g. <$1K/semester), while raising the bar on academic rigor as a means of controlling demand?

eldavido 6y ago
This is probably what's going to happen, but only if we take a LOT of human labor out of it. Either that, or accept that every class will be huge (200-500 students) with minimal attention given to students, no office hours, and low-paid labor doing all the grunt work (grading, answering questions) I see a lot of parallels to medicine here. Both are highly regulated and seen as a "right" we ought to fund. Maybe, but until we achieve greater labor leverage (made even harder by professional credentialing in medicine), there just won't be a way to drive costs down much, so we're stuck with what we have.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  College at $60k a semester while an adjunct earns $28k a year and somehow this doesn't result in a 1:1 student:teacher ratio means someone's skimming off a ton of money.
  - eldavido 6y ago
    Skimming or cross-subsidizing? Part of the problem with universities IMO is the accounting for revenue<->expenses isn't at all straightforward. Athletics generate a ton more money than they cost, most people seem fine with that. Research generates no revenue but costs a ton, for some hard-to-quantify but (hopefully?) real benefit to society at large. Tuition is nominally for teaching, which is a big cost center for a university. And, at least in the US, all the costs are split between the national government, the state government (who has the pleasure of educating people who may not live in that state long-term?) and tuition, and various donors and grants. A system ripe for disruption, if ever there was one.
    - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
      I have no idea why anyone would say "research generates no revenues" when most universities have systems to spin out viable research and profit from it. Universities quite literally profit financially from patented research funded by taxpayers. The government gets no direct return on this, and the usual argument is that it increases economic activity and raises the tax take - which may be true, but it's still a uniquely privileged position. But most universities are more about property speculation and bequest farming than they are about education or R&D. The system is entirely corporatised and often predatory. Professors are only as valuable as the grant income they generate, adjuncts are gig economy labour, students are a barely-tolerated annoyance, and property speculation and "administration" are considered the central mission.
    - madhadron 6y ago
      For the university, research in the sciences brings in way more money than it costs, and subsidizes a lot of other things. Most professors in physics, chemistry, etc. largely pay their own salaries out of grants.
    - FireBeyond 6y ago
      Exactly, why are young students footing a disproportionate load for “society-benefiting research” as part of their tuition? And paying interest for it. That’s amazingly unfair.

lordnacho 6y ago

The kind of knowledge you need to evaluate this is something that is normally taught in college. What high school teaches decision making under uncertainty, along with economic history and statistics? I mean sure we could try to teach kids this stuff, and I certainly aim to tech my kids, but it's not what's been done in the past at secondary school.

abnry 6y ago
Isn't that then a gigantic failure of high school then? If there is one thing we need to prepare students for, isn't it how to start making career decisions?
- lordnacho 6y ago
  If that's a goal of high school, then yes, it's a huge failing. There's also a bunch of other useful stuff they don't teach you, like cooking and how to wash your clothes. There's no coherent idea of what school is supposed to be, though. Is it a place to learn a bunch of practical skills? Or a place to read about some interesting ideas? All those things take time and money, and we end up with a school that does a bunch of different stuff with no real plan.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Our town used to have the Mechanics' Academy. A 12-week study program to learn enough math to balance, books, amortize a loan, calculate weights and measures, figure load limits. Graduates were very employable. My Mom's Grandfather was one. Long ago demolished and turned into a Mall during Urban Renewal.
WalterBright 6y ago
It's really too bad that high schools do not teach basic accounting, compound interest, and how the free market system works. Things people need to know to function in our society.
- 6y ago