4 ms·

Honestly Zoom just works how you expect it to. Other applications do exist and they're bad from a usability perspective. Google hangouts maxes out my CPU. Te

by Jonnax 6y ago

Honestly Zoom just works how you expect it to. Other applications do exist and they're bad from a usability perspective. Google hangouts maxes out my CPU. Teams is a horrible electron app which I'm loathe to use. So the negatives are that it's unencrypted, traffic might be routed through China sometimes and unknown participants can join if they have the meeting link with password. For the majority of people they're not too bothered. I'd argue that security is about having an understanding of the risk and mitigating it accordingly. And for a lot of cases zoom is fine.

jcelerier 6y ago
> Google hangouts maxes out my CPU. Teams is a horrible electron app which I'm loathe to use. A good example that there are some benefits to using Qt (like Zoom) to make correctly performing apps
- 72deluxe 6y ago
  I don't think it's Qt. It's another thin window layer, duilib I think? Their Windows SDK demo pages certainly use it anyway. duilib is here: https://github.com/duilib/duilib https://github.com/duilib/duilib Using the Zoom SDK with its many spelling mistakes and broken English comments, I am sure that a Chinese UI toolkit would be preferable to Zoom, since their development team really does seem to be Chinese.
  - jcelerier 6y ago
    It's definitely Qt with QtQuick. nm -D -C zoom | grep Q https://paste.ofcode.org/vZWguEXM6f7ib6nuCJcMEX https://paste.ofcode.org/vZWguEXM6f7ib6nuCJcMEX
    - 72deluxe 6y ago
      Ah you are on Linux! I am using Windows. That'll explain it!
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
you're obviously not worried about traffic routed through China might cause IP theft? And you also say Zoom for a lot of cases is fine. Would you say if my company does work for clients in critical technologies (energy plants, telecoms) where research is an expensive upfront investment that it's OK to use Zoom? Or is it more for companies who are only running a web-dev SaaS product where nobody cares about stealing it? I'm asking as somebody who has found his code stolen by a Chinese colleague working from our Hangzhou office and then published on github after he switched to Huawei (under his real name because that's the amount of f*s they give). Seriously please don't assume your threat models are portable.
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  If you are worried about traffic routed through China might cause IP theft, are you also worried about traffic routed through Five Eyes countries (US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand)? After all, they have been caught red handed using their communications interception intelligence gathering for economic favoring of their own companies.
  - DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
    > If you are worried about traffic routed through China might cause IP theft, are you also worried about traffic routed through Five Eyes countries (US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand)? very much so. if you work on projects that take a 2-3 years forward investment on research and based in central Europe (automotive, telecoms, energy) the idea of hosting your source code on github or using google cloud for critical core services is totally out of the question. Some of my clients even booted Atlassin out of their portfolio because Jira was considered a security risk after Australia changed it's laws last year. If you're building web-tech maybe this is fine but that doesn't mean your threat-models are portable to other domains.
- signal11 6y ago
  > you're obviously not worried about traffic routed through China might cause IP theft? Newer versions of Zoom allow you to specify which countries’ data centres are allowed to host your meeting, and also shows which data centres are in use. They’ve also cleaned up their act on encryption. But yes, a lot of Zoom development occurs in China (700+ employees). But it is US owned. Many other corporations also develop software in China, so I have to ask — where’s the evidence that using Zoom makes you especially vulnerable to being ripped off? Because otherwise it seems a bit FUD-ish.
xorfish 6y ago
Is it really that much better than it's open source alternative jitsi-meet?
- socceroos 6y ago
  No it's not, I'd say Zoom is demonstrably worse; at least in the experiences of people I've worked with.
- bachmeier 6y ago
  Zoom performance is crap for me. Routinely poor quality. Jitsi just works. Seems heavy on resources, but for one-on-one or small groups, way better experience than Zoom.
- solarkraft 6y ago
  Is that not the same thing?
socceroos 6y ago
We evaluated Jitsi after discovering it during Zoom's security and privacy issues and have been incredibly surprised. The best part was that none of our more technically challenged members got stuck with joining a meeting (unlike Zoom). I'd say in terms of usability, it's better.
- Matticus_Rex 6y ago
  Jitsi has come a long way in the last six to nine months, though. People who tried it even relatively recently would likely be surprised today (I was). It'll take some time for people to find out how good it has become (assuming it stays that good -- I never take that for granted with things I use for free anymore).
- the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
  Does not match my experience at all. Jitsi has an awful UI and performance. Noise cancelling seems completely missing, people can’t figure out when they are muted or not (because of the UI) and if you have 20 people on the CPU goes berserk. In my experience at least and from people I share the calls with, Jitsi is the worst of the bunch but people use it because of privacy reasons.
  - fock 6y ago
    would you mind explaining what kind of screen you are using/meeting you are in, where 20 people need to/can see and speak to each other within a split-second?
    - Jonnax 6y ago
      If a product can't do something, whilst it's competition can without issue. Then it's not really a case of going "but do you really need it?"
  - socceroos 6y ago
    Not sure about noise cancellation as we never had an issue, but what you describe about ~20 participants and muting intuitiveness doesn't match our experiences with a wildly tech-illiterate audience.
power 6y ago
Zoom traffic is encrypted, just not end-to-end. So your ISP and flatmates can't sniff it but people with access to Zoom servers could
- ngcc_hk 6y ago
  Where are those servers?
  - cbm-vic-20 6y ago
    The 5.0 client includes an icon that has this information; after starting a meeting, this currently says "You are connected to the Zoom global network via a datacenter in the United States." Make what you will of that.
ekianjo 6y ago
I see you have not used Jitsi. It's not bad.

by Jonnax 6y ago

jcelerier 6y ago

> Google hangouts maxes out my CPU. Teams is a horrible electron app which I'm loathe to use. A good example that there are some benefits to using Qt (like Zoom) to make correctly performing apps

72deluxe 6y ago
I don't think it's Qt. It's another thin window layer, duilib I think? Their Windows SDK demo pages certainly use it anyway. duilib is here: https://github.com/duilib/duilib https://github.com/duilib/duilib Using the Zoom SDK with its many spelling mistakes and broken English comments, I am sure that a Chinese UI toolkit would be preferable to Zoom, since their development team really does seem to be Chinese.
- jcelerier 6y ago
  It's definitely Qt with QtQuick. nm -D -C zoom | grep Q https://paste.ofcode.org/vZWguEXM6f7ib6nuCJcMEX https://paste.ofcode.org/vZWguEXM6f7ib6nuCJcMEX
  - 72deluxe 6y ago
    Ah you are on Linux! I am using Windows. That'll explain it!

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago

you're obviously not worried about traffic routed through China might cause IP theft? And you also say Zoom for a lot of cases is fine. Would you say if my company does work for clients in critical technologies (energy plants, telecoms) where research is an expensive upfront investment that it's OK to use Zoom? Or is it more for companies who are only running a web-dev SaaS product where nobody cares about stealing it? I'm asking as somebody who has found his code stolen by a Chinese colleague working from our Hangzhou office and then published on github after he switched to Huawei (under his real name because that's the amount of f*s they give). Seriously please don't assume your threat models are portable.

PeterStuer 6y ago
If you are worried about traffic routed through China might cause IP theft, are you also worried about traffic routed through Five Eyes countries (US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand)? After all, they have been caught red handed using their communications interception intelligence gathering for economic favoring of their own companies.
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  > If you are worried about traffic routed through China might cause IP theft, are you also worried about traffic routed through Five Eyes countries (US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand)? very much so. if you work on projects that take a 2-3 years forward investment on research and based in central Europe (automotive, telecoms, energy) the idea of hosting your source code on github or using google cloud for critical core services is totally out of the question. Some of my clients even booted Atlassin out of their portfolio because Jira was considered a security risk after Australia changed it's laws last year. If you're building web-tech maybe this is fine but that doesn't mean your threat-models are portable to other domains.
signal11 6y ago
> you're obviously not worried about traffic routed through China might cause IP theft? Newer versions of Zoom allow you to specify which countries’ data centres are allowed to host your meeting, and also shows which data centres are in use. They’ve also cleaned up their act on encryption. But yes, a lot of Zoom development occurs in China (700+ employees). But it is US owned. Many other corporations also develop software in China, so I have to ask — where’s the evidence that using Zoom makes you especially vulnerable to being ripped off? Because otherwise it seems a bit FUD-ish.

xorfish 6y ago

Is it really that much better than it's open source alternative jitsi-meet?

socceroos 6y ago
No it's not, I'd say Zoom is demonstrably worse; at least in the experiences of people I've worked with.
bachmeier 6y ago
Zoom performance is crap for me. Routinely poor quality. Jitsi just works. Seems heavy on resources, but for one-on-one or small groups, way better experience than Zoom.
solarkraft 6y ago
Is that not the same thing?

socceroos 6y ago

We evaluated Jitsi after discovering it during Zoom's security and privacy issues and have been incredibly surprised. The best part was that none of our more technically challenged members got stuck with joining a meeting (unlike Zoom). I'd say in terms of usability, it's better.

Matticus_Rex 6y ago
Jitsi has come a long way in the last six to nine months, though. People who tried it even relatively recently would likely be surprised today (I was). It'll take some time for people to find out how good it has become (assuming it stays that good -- I never take that for granted with things I use for free anymore).
the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
Does not match my experience at all. Jitsi has an awful UI and performance. Noise cancelling seems completely missing, people can’t figure out when they are muted or not (because of the UI) and if you have 20 people on the CPU goes berserk. In my experience at least and from people I share the calls with, Jitsi is the worst of the bunch but people use it because of privacy reasons.
- fock 6y ago
  would you mind explaining what kind of screen you are using/meeting you are in, where 20 people need to/can see and speak to each other within a split-second?
  - Jonnax 6y ago
    If a product can't do something, whilst it's competition can without issue. Then it's not really a case of going "but do you really need it?"
- socceroos 6y ago
  Not sure about noise cancellation as we never had an issue, but what you describe about ~20 participants and muting intuitiveness doesn't match our experiences with a wildly tech-illiterate audience.

power 6y ago

Zoom traffic is encrypted, just not end-to-end. So your ISP and flatmates can't sniff it but people with access to Zoom servers could

ngcc_hk 6y ago
Where are those servers?
- cbm-vic-20 6y ago
  The 5.0 client includes an icon that has this information; after starting a meeting, this currently says "You are connected to the Zoom global network via a datacenter in the United States." Make what you will of that.

ekianjo 6y ago

I see you have not used Jitsi. It's not bad.