5 ms·

Right-of-way doesn't answer why the cyclists can't see the cars. Right-of-way isn't going to bring someone back to life.

renewiltord 6y ago
Yeah, but assuming no right-of-way will lead to not having a life of any sort. I can't even imagine living life this way. Can you imagine that? A Tesla is stopped at a red light just before a pedestrian crossing. The Tesla can go from 0-30 mph before I can cross its width at walking pace. The walk light is on. I have the right-of-way. But considering the Tesla could go from 0-30 mph in the time I could pass it, your suggested course of action is to just wait until a slower-to-accelerate car stops at the intersection?
- RandomBacon 6y ago
  I can imagine it because I do. I always keep an eye on cars as I'm walking in their path. It's not hard. I don't stop unless they aren't slowing down, and I'm always ready to move in a different direction and/or a different speed. I'm not saying everyone can do that, and I think we agree that people shouldn't have to do that. Situational awareness, constantly coming up with alternative plans, and always making sure an "out" is available has kept me alive in dangerous situations. Anyway, that's how I live. People are wired diferently.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    All right, describe your behaviour under these (very common, in San Francisco) circumstances: A Tesla is stopped at a red light just before a pedestrian crossing. The Tesla can go from 0-30 mph before you can cross its width at walking pace. The walk light is on. You have the right-of-way.
    - RandomBacon 6y ago
      What are you trying to accomplish? To answer your question, it's like I said: situational awareness. Is the driver only looking at oncoming traffic, or do they look around? It's rare, but I have waited at crosswalks with the walk light on because it wasn't safe. I have also walked out of the way or not walked when a driver still saw me and went anyway.
      - renewiltord 6y ago
        To detect the boundaries of your rules to determine whether they can be implemented reasonably by an arbitrary individual and to illustrate that there are limits where your own stated rules would fail and you likely violate them. So far I have determined from your rules that you should never step in front of an electric vehicle under any condition. The driver could look right at you and accidentally step on the pedal. After all, situational awareness doesn't bring people back to life.
        RandomBacon 6y ago
        > I have determined from your rules that you should never step in front of an electric vehicle under any condition. That would be a poor deduction. It seems like you have a bone to pick. I don't care to facilitate or engage in such behaviors.
- downerending 6y ago
  I do regularly make eye contact before crossing in front of cars, even in the crosswalk with the right of way. But, yes, a car with that much acceleration has no business on the public roadways.
- Cogito 6y ago
  In these threads it feels like you are not reading what they are saying, or at least reading it in the least charitable way. Defensive driving simply means to not assume drivers are going to take an action until they give evidence of it. If a driver is going to stop at an intersection, they will slow down before they get to the intersection. A defensive driver approaching a crossing with other cars approaching will look for evidence that the other cars are slowing down before assuming that they will stop. If a car is stopped at a pedestrian crossing and a defensive pedestrian is looking to cross, they will look for evidence the car is about to accelerate into the crossing. They don't assume the car will suddenly accelerate for no reason, because there is no evidence that they would! Evidence that they may suddenly accelerate includes things like looking down at their phone, or not looking at pedestrians. If the defensive pedestrian sees that evidence they approach the crossing with caution, ready to take evasive action or not enter the crossing if needed. Right-of-way tells everyone who has the right of way, it makes the expected behaviour clear. Assuming that everyone else will do what you expect them to do is extremely dangerous, as even without malice or carelessness it's very easy for each invloved party to have different assumptions about the expected bahviour. So, to be defensive it's important to - have a well informed understanding of what you think should happen - look for evidence that all parties are acting in accordance with what you think should happen - be prepared to change your actions if any party does not act in accordance with what you think should happen
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    I think it's quite clear. These threads mostly involve people acting like they're better drivers than they are and claiming behaviour they do not practise. Then they'll come here and act a bit sanctimonious "Why didn't the X just do Y? I always do Y". It's just the Wobegon Effect in action. I don't read it charitably because of the sanctimony involved in not reading an accident situation with the Understanding Human Error strategy, thereby leading to a bunch of low-quality comments about how people should just be better, involving poor understanding of public health and traffic engineering principles. It's true, I probably shouldn't engage when the nth accident analysis by a HNer is "Why didn't the pilot just not crash into the mountain? When I see a mountain I just avoid crashing into it". No one is likely to get anything from that.
- valuearb 6y ago
  If the Tesla driver does not make eye contact with you, be cautious. That’s defensive walking in a nutshell.
hombre_fatal 6y ago
Every time you drive, you aren't hit by cars that simply had a yield sign. You see those cars, and you see them before they have even slowed as they approach the yield sign, and every day you gamble that they are going to yield and let you pass without hitting you. So, even though the cars are approaching from behind the cyclist, they may see the cars approaching. And just like any right of way situation, they assume the cars will stop. Just like how you don't slow down just because you see someone waiting to go right on red. Note: the OP intersection has gained stop signs over time to help avoid collisions.
- RandomBacon 6y ago
  I make sure they start slowing down, or else I'll slow down. I've been cut off by people who did not have the right of way and still took it. If I gamble like you're saying, I would have been in some bad accidents. To prevent that, I just keep an eye on them, take my foot off the accelerate if necessary, lightly apply the brakes if necessary, etc. It's a dance, and it's not hard to avoid. Edit: I don't cycle, but it's just as applicable to cars. The same blind spot problem is even applicable to planes. If you're a pilot, move your head! (My second paragraph is about some terrible curved highway merges.)
- EdwardDiego 6y ago
  If you're driving defensively, or riding defensively, you can never assume that they've seen you, or that they'll give way. Difference is when this assumption is proven false in a car, it's generally more survivable than when you're on a bike or motorbike.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Interesting. So if you are driving on a road and come across an intersection that you don't have a stop sign for but the cross roads do, you treat the intersection as an all-way stop? In all my decades of driving I have never seen anyone drive that way. I think I'd believe it with dashcam evidence only.
    - 6y ago
chipsa 6y ago
The car is more than 90 degrees of from the bikes line of travel. The cyclist can't see him because he literally can't see the car.
- downerending 6y ago
  When I biked, I'd get a 270-degree view just from naturally turning my head as I tracked my surroundings. Plus coverage behind from a head-mounted mirror. Highly recommended.
mrslave 6y ago
I'll never forget the basic message from my first day of motorcycle training: you can argue about who was right from your hospital bed, or you can take responsibility for your own safety at all times/under all circumstances.

renewiltord 6y ago

Yeah, but assuming no right-of-way will lead to not having a life of any sort. I can't even imagine living life this way. Can you imagine that? A Tesla is stopped at a red light just before a pedestrian crossing. The Tesla can go from 0-30 mph before I can cross its width at walking pace. The walk light is on. I have the right-of-way. But considering the Tesla could go from 0-30 mph in the time I could pass it, your suggested course of action is to just wait until a slower-to-accelerate car stops at the intersection?

RandomBacon 6y ago
I can imagine it because I do. I always keep an eye on cars as I'm walking in their path. It's not hard. I don't stop unless they aren't slowing down, and I'm always ready to move in a different direction and/or a different speed. I'm not saying everyone can do that, and I think we agree that people shouldn't have to do that. Situational awareness, constantly coming up with alternative plans, and always making sure an "out" is available has kept me alive in dangerous situations. Anyway, that's how I live. People are wired diferently.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  All right, describe your behaviour under these (very common, in San Francisco) circumstances: A Tesla is stopped at a red light just before a pedestrian crossing. The Tesla can go from 0-30 mph before you can cross its width at walking pace. The walk light is on. You have the right-of-way.
  - RandomBacon 6y ago
    What are you trying to accomplish? To answer your question, it's like I said: situational awareness. Is the driver only looking at oncoming traffic, or do they look around? It's rare, but I have waited at crosswalks with the walk light on because it wasn't safe. I have also walked out of the way or not walked when a driver still saw me and went anyway.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      To detect the boundaries of your rules to determine whether they can be implemented reasonably by an arbitrary individual and to illustrate that there are limits where your own stated rules would fail and you likely violate them. So far I have determined from your rules that you should never step in front of an electric vehicle under any condition. The driver could look right at you and accidentally step on the pedal. After all, situational awareness doesn't bring people back to life.
      - RandomBacon 6y ago
        > I have determined from your rules that you should never step in front of an electric vehicle under any condition. That would be a poor deduction. It seems like you have a bone to pick. I don't care to facilitate or engage in such behaviors.
downerending 6y ago
I do regularly make eye contact before crossing in front of cars, even in the crosswalk with the right of way. But, yes, a car with that much acceleration has no business on the public roadways.
Cogito 6y ago
In these threads it feels like you are not reading what they are saying, or at least reading it in the least charitable way. Defensive driving simply means to not assume drivers are going to take an action until they give evidence of it. If a driver is going to stop at an intersection, they will slow down before they get to the intersection. A defensive driver approaching a crossing with other cars approaching will look for evidence that the other cars are slowing down before assuming that they will stop. If a car is stopped at a pedestrian crossing and a defensive pedestrian is looking to cross, they will look for evidence the car is about to accelerate into the crossing. They don't assume the car will suddenly accelerate for no reason, because there is no evidence that they would! Evidence that they may suddenly accelerate includes things like looking down at their phone, or not looking at pedestrians. If the defensive pedestrian sees that evidence they approach the crossing with caution, ready to take evasive action or not enter the crossing if needed. Right-of-way tells everyone who has the right of way, it makes the expected behaviour clear. Assuming that everyone else will do what you expect them to do is extremely dangerous, as even without malice or carelessness it's very easy for each invloved party to have different assumptions about the expected bahviour. So, to be defensive it's important to - have a well informed understanding of what you think should happen - look for evidence that all parties are acting in accordance with what you think should happen - be prepared to change your actions if any party does not act in accordance with what you think should happen
- renewiltord 6y ago
  I think it's quite clear. These threads mostly involve people acting like they're better drivers than they are and claiming behaviour they do not practise. Then they'll come here and act a bit sanctimonious "Why didn't the X just do Y? I always do Y". It's just the Wobegon Effect in action. I don't read it charitably because of the sanctimony involved in not reading an accident situation with the Understanding Human Error strategy, thereby leading to a bunch of low-quality comments about how people should just be better, involving poor understanding of public health and traffic engineering principles. It's true, I probably shouldn't engage when the nth accident analysis by a HNer is "Why didn't the pilot just not crash into the mountain? When I see a mountain I just avoid crashing into it". No one is likely to get anything from that.
valuearb 6y ago
If the Tesla driver does not make eye contact with you, be cautious. That’s defensive walking in a nutshell.

hombre_fatal 6y ago

Every time you drive, you aren't hit by cars that simply had a yield sign. You see those cars, and you see them before they have even slowed as they approach the yield sign, and every day you gamble that they are going to yield and let you pass without hitting you. So, even though the cars are approaching from behind the cyclist, they may see the cars approaching. And just like any right of way situation, they assume the cars will stop. Just like how you don't slow down just because you see someone waiting to go right on red. Note: the OP intersection has gained stop signs over time to help avoid collisions.

RandomBacon 6y ago
I make sure they start slowing down, or else I'll slow down. I've been cut off by people who did not have the right of way and still took it. If I gamble like you're saying, I would have been in some bad accidents. To prevent that, I just keep an eye on them, take my foot off the accelerate if necessary, lightly apply the brakes if necessary, etc. It's a dance, and it's not hard to avoid. Edit: I don't cycle, but it's just as applicable to cars. The same blind spot problem is even applicable to planes. If you're a pilot, move your head! (My second paragraph is about some terrible curved highway merges.)
EdwardDiego 6y ago
If you're driving defensively, or riding defensively, you can never assume that they've seen you, or that they'll give way. Difference is when this assumption is proven false in a car, it's generally more survivable than when you're on a bike or motorbike.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Interesting. So if you are driving on a road and come across an intersection that you don't have a stop sign for but the cross roads do, you treat the intersection as an all-way stop? In all my decades of driving I have never seen anyone drive that way. I think I'd believe it with dashcam evidence only.
  - 6y ago

chipsa 6y ago

The car is more than 90 degrees of from the bikes line of travel. The cyclist can't see him because he literally can't see the car.

downerending 6y ago
When I biked, I'd get a 270-degree view just from naturally turning my head as I tracked my surroundings. Plus coverage behind from a head-mounted mirror. Highly recommended.

mrslave 6y ago

I'll never forget the basic message from my first day of motorcycle training: you can argue about who was right from your hospital bed, or you can take responsibility for your own safety at all times/under all circumstances.