9 ms·

I follow him on the why the cars don't see the cyclists. Why don't the cyclists see the cars?

btilly 7y ago
That is explained by this sentence. A car which is on a collision course at Ipley Cross with a cyclist who is obscured from the driver’s view by the front pillar will approach the cyclist from behind. So if the cyclist doesn't do a shoulder check, the cyclist won't see it. If they do do a shoulder check, the car will appear to be stationary to them. (It is surprisingly harder to see an object with no apparent motion.)
ColinWright 7y ago
The cyclists have right-of-way and have no reason to expect that that cars will simply come out of the side street without stopping, or even slowing down. By the time a cyclist realises it can easily be too late.
- RandomBacon 7y ago
  Right-of-way doesn't answer why the cyclists can't see the cars. Right-of-way isn't going to bring someone back to life.
  - renewiltord 7y ago
    Yeah, but assuming no right-of-way will lead to not having a life of any sort. I can't even imagine living life this way. Can you imagine that? A Tesla is stopped at a red light just before a pedestrian crossing. The Tesla can go from 0-30 mph before I can cross its width at walking pace. The walk light is on. I have the right-of-way. But considering the Tesla could go from 0-30 mph in the time I could pass it, your suggested course of action is to just wait until a slower-to-accelerate car stops at the intersection?
    - RandomBacon 7y ago
      I can imagine it because I do. I always keep an eye on cars as I'm walking in their path. It's not hard. I don't stop unless they aren't slowing down, and I'm always ready to move in a different direction and/or a different speed. I'm not saying everyone can do that, and I think we agree that people shouldn't have to do that. Situational awareness, constantly coming up with alternative plans, and always making sure an "out" is available has kept me alive in dangerous situations. Anyway, that's how I live. People are wired diferently.
      - renewiltord 7y ago
        All right, describe your behaviour under these (very common, in San Francisco) circumstances: A Tesla is stopped at a red light just before a pedestrian crossing. The Tesla can go from 0-30 mph before you can cross its width at walking pace. The walk light is on. You have the right-of-way.
        RandomBacon 7y ago
        What are you trying to accomplish? To answer your question, it's like I said: situational awareness. Is the driver only looking at oncoming traffic, or do they look around? It's rare, but I have waited at crosswalks with the walk light on because it wasn't safe. I have also walked out of the way or not walked when a driver still saw me and went anyway.
        renewiltord 7y ago
        To detect the boundaries of your rules to determine whether they can be implemented reasonably by an arbitrary individual and to illustrate that there are limits where your own stated rules would fail and you likely violate them. So far I have determined from your rules that you should never step in front of an electric vehicle under any condition. The driver could look right at you and accidentally step on the pedal. After all, situational awareness doesn't bring people back to life.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    Every time you drive, you aren't hit by cars that simply had a yield sign. You see those cars, and you see them before they have even slowed as they approach the yield sign, and every day you gamble that they are going to yield and let you pass without hitting you. So, even though the cars are approaching from behind the cyclist, they may see the cars approaching. And just like any right of way situation, they assume the cars will stop. Just like how you don't slow down just because you see someone waiting to go right on red. Note: the OP intersection has gained stop signs over time to help avoid collisions.
    - RandomBacon 7y ago
      I make sure they start slowing down, or else I'll slow down. I've been cut off by people who did not have the right of way and still took it. If I gamble like you're saying, I would have been in some bad accidents. To prevent that, I just keep an eye on them, take my foot off the accelerate if necessary, lightly apply the brakes if necessary, etc. It's a dance, and it's not hard to avoid. Edit: I don't cycle, but it's just as applicable to cars. The same blind spot problem is even applicable to planes. If you're a pilot, move your head! (My second paragraph is about some terrible curved highway merges.)
    - EdwardDiego 7y ago
      If you're driving defensively, or riding defensively, you can never assume that they've seen you, or that they'll give way. Difference is when this assumption is proven false in a car, it's generally more survivable than when you're on a bike or motorbike.
      - renewiltord 7y ago
        Interesting. So if you are driving on a road and come across an intersection that you don't have a stop sign for but the cross roads do, you treat the intersection as an all-way stop? In all my decades of driving I have never seen anyone drive that way. I think I'd believe it with dashcam evidence only.
        7y ago
  - chipsa 7y ago
    The car is more than 90 degrees of from the bikes line of travel. The cyclist can't see him because he literally can't see the car.
    - downerending 7y ago
      When I biked, I'd get a 270-degree view just from naturally turning my head as I tracked my surroundings. Plus coverage behind from a head-mounted mirror. Highly recommended.
  - mrslave 7y ago
    I'll never forget the basic message from my first day of motorcycle training: you can argue about who was right from your hospital bed, or you can take responsibility for your own safety at all times/under all circumstances.
- valuearb 7y ago
  I bike 3-4 times a week, but nearly ran over a cyclist myself a week ago. It was a stop with a right turn only onto a one way street with fairly fast (45 MPH) traffic. A large hedge abutted the sign, making it hard to see more than ten feet of sidewalk. I looked right as I was pulling up to stop, sidewalk clear. I look left and see it’s clear for just enough to get into tragic. I don’t complete my stop, I’m doing less than 5 MPH and decide to punch it and I hear a scream just as a woman on a bike enters my vision passing right in front of me. She yells at me that she had right of way. I try to tell her that riding 15 MPH on the sidewalk against traffic requires defensive riding skills. Right of way or not she shouldn’t have ridden in front of me when I was clearly looking the other direction. But before I can finish, another biker going with traffic on the road tells me she’s right and to shut up. And I do, because I am embarrassed that I did California stop and that contributed to nearly running her over. I was also in the wrong. But people California stop all day long and as a biker I always assume they might.
  - veggieburglar 7y ago
    You were technically in the wrong considering that California stops are never actually legal, but it is extremely reckless to ride at 15mph on the sidewalk, especially if you’re barreling through intersections AND “salmoning” aka riding against the flow of traffic. If you’re going to ride a bike on the sidewalk you should act like a pedestrian, for everyone’s safety. If there is a bike lane/acceptable shoulder, you should be riding on that.
cultus 7y ago
The examples given were cars that failed to yield way when legally required. Operators of heavy, high-velocity machinery should do so responsibly or not at all.
chrisseaton 7y ago
I think from the perspective of the cyclist, the car is behind them, and stationary. It isn't in their vision until it's too late, and it won't appear to be moving at all.
- sleavey 7y ago
  Correct - this is explained in the YouTube video linked above [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU
sitharus 7y ago
The Tom Scott video has a good animation on this: https://youtu.be/SYeeTvitvFU?t=119 https://youtu.be/SYeeTvitvFU?t=119 Because of the layout of the junction the cars are actually approaching from behind the cyclists.
- heisenzombie 7y ago
  Wow: The _very first_ car in that video to arrive at the stop sign fails to stop. Of the vehicles in the video we see traversing a stop sign, I count 5 cars that come to a stop and 5 that do not. (One bicycle crosses: it comes to a complete stop).
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    That surprised me. Stop signs are so rare in the UK -- I can only think of one in the area I grew up -- that they're taken seriously. Or at least, I thought they were. "Until 2016, each stop sign had to be individually approved by the Secretary of State for Transport.", though that requirement has been removed.
  - laurieg 7y ago
    The very first car in _that video_ fails to stop. You don't know how many times they recorded the intro. I'm not trying to imply Tom Scott is being dishonest. We just don't know from the video.
- xxpor 7y ago
  Why don't they just add a traffic light?
  - 2019-nCoV 7y ago
    It is the UK. If they were to do anything a roundabout would be more suitable.
    - xxpor 7y ago
      Good point, it does look like there's enough room for one too.
downerending 7y ago
Presumably they do see them and just assume that they will yield. However legal that might be, it's quite foolish as a practical matter.(source: many years of bicycling) To stay alive, you have to start with the assumption that cars and trucks simply can't see you. I loved the visual presentation of the problem, but it's hard to fathom the objection to "stop" signs as a solution. At least here in the US, I regard every four-way intersection that doesn't have stop signs or lights as inherently dangerous (and I do indeed slow way down when encountering one). Had a friend once from a Middle Eastern country, and he described their protocol thus: When two drivers approach a four-way at right angles, they look at each other. The one that looks away first has the right of way. :-(

That is explained by this sentence. A car which is on a collision course at Ipley Cross with a cyclist who is obscured from the driver’s view by the front pillar will approach the cyclist from behind. So if the cyclist doesn't do a shoulder check, the cyclist won't see it. If they do do a shoulder check, the car will appear to be stationary to them. (It is surprisingly harder to see an object with no apparent motion.)

ColinWright 7y ago

The cyclists have right-of-way and have no reason to expect that that cars will simply come out of the side street without stopping, or even slowing down. By the time a cyclist realises it can easily be too late.

RandomBacon 7y ago
Right-of-way doesn't answer why the cyclists can't see the cars. Right-of-way isn't going to bring someone back to life.
- renewiltord 7y ago
  Yeah, but assuming no right-of-way will lead to not having a life of any sort. I can't even imagine living life this way. Can you imagine that? A Tesla is stopped at a red light just before a pedestrian crossing. The Tesla can go from 0-30 mph before I can cross its width at walking pace. The walk light is on. I have the right-of-way. But considering the Tesla could go from 0-30 mph in the time I could pass it, your suggested course of action is to just wait until a slower-to-accelerate car stops at the intersection?
  - RandomBacon 7y ago
    I can imagine it because I do. I always keep an eye on cars as I'm walking in their path. It's not hard. I don't stop unless they aren't slowing down, and I'm always ready to move in a different direction and/or a different speed. I'm not saying everyone can do that, and I think we agree that people shouldn't have to do that. Situational awareness, constantly coming up with alternative plans, and always making sure an "out" is available has kept me alive in dangerous situations. Anyway, that's how I live. People are wired diferently.
    - renewiltord 7y ago
      All right, describe your behaviour under these (very common, in San Francisco) circumstances: A Tesla is stopped at a red light just before a pedestrian crossing. The Tesla can go from 0-30 mph before you can cross its width at walking pace. The walk light is on. You have the right-of-way.
      - RandomBacon 7y ago
        What are you trying to accomplish? To answer your question, it's like I said: situational awareness. Is the driver only looking at oncoming traffic, or do they look around? It's rare, but I have waited at crosswalks with the walk light on because it wasn't safe. I have also walked out of the way or not walked when a driver still saw me and went anyway.
        renewiltord 7y ago
        To detect the boundaries of your rules to determine whether they can be implemented reasonably by an arbitrary individual and to illustrate that there are limits where your own stated rules would fail and you likely violate them. So far I have determined from your rules that you should never step in front of an electric vehicle under any condition. The driver could look right at you and accidentally step on the pedal. After all, situational awareness doesn't bring people back to life.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  Every time you drive, you aren't hit by cars that simply had a yield sign. You see those cars, and you see them before they have even slowed as they approach the yield sign, and every day you gamble that they are going to yield and let you pass without hitting you. So, even though the cars are approaching from behind the cyclist, they may see the cars approaching. And just like any right of way situation, they assume the cars will stop. Just like how you don't slow down just because you see someone waiting to go right on red. Note: the OP intersection has gained stop signs over time to help avoid collisions.
  - RandomBacon 7y ago
    I make sure they start slowing down, or else I'll slow down. I've been cut off by people who did not have the right of way and still took it. If I gamble like you're saying, I would have been in some bad accidents. To prevent that, I just keep an eye on them, take my foot off the accelerate if necessary, lightly apply the brakes if necessary, etc. It's a dance, and it's not hard to avoid. Edit: I don't cycle, but it's just as applicable to cars. The same blind spot problem is even applicable to planes. If you're a pilot, move your head! (My second paragraph is about some terrible curved highway merges.)
  - EdwardDiego 7y ago
    If you're driving defensively, or riding defensively, you can never assume that they've seen you, or that they'll give way. Difference is when this assumption is proven false in a car, it's generally more survivable than when you're on a bike or motorbike.
    - renewiltord 7y ago
      Interesting. So if you are driving on a road and come across an intersection that you don't have a stop sign for but the cross roads do, you treat the intersection as an all-way stop? In all my decades of driving I have never seen anyone drive that way. I think I'd believe it with dashcam evidence only.
      - 7y ago
- chipsa 7y ago
  The car is more than 90 degrees of from the bikes line of travel. The cyclist can't see him because he literally can't see the car.
  - downerending 7y ago
    When I biked, I'd get a 270-degree view just from naturally turning my head as I tracked my surroundings. Plus coverage behind from a head-mounted mirror. Highly recommended.
- mrslave 7y ago
  I'll never forget the basic message from my first day of motorcycle training: you can argue about who was right from your hospital bed, or you can take responsibility for your own safety at all times/under all circumstances.
valuearb 7y ago
I bike 3-4 times a week, but nearly ran over a cyclist myself a week ago. It was a stop with a right turn only onto a one way street with fairly fast (45 MPH) traffic. A large hedge abutted the sign, making it hard to see more than ten feet of sidewalk. I looked right as I was pulling up to stop, sidewalk clear. I look left and see it’s clear for just enough to get into tragic. I don’t complete my stop, I’m doing less than 5 MPH and decide to punch it and I hear a scream just as a woman on a bike enters my vision passing right in front of me. She yells at me that she had right of way. I try to tell her that riding 15 MPH on the sidewalk against traffic requires defensive riding skills. Right of way or not she shouldn’t have ridden in front of me when I was clearly looking the other direction. But before I can finish, another biker going with traffic on the road tells me she’s right and to shut up. And I do, because I am embarrassed that I did California stop and that contributed to nearly running her over. I was also in the wrong. But people California stop all day long and as a biker I always assume they might.
- veggieburglar 7y ago
  You were technically in the wrong considering that California stops are never actually legal, but it is extremely reckless to ride at 15mph on the sidewalk, especially if you’re barreling through intersections AND “salmoning” aka riding against the flow of traffic. If you’re going to ride a bike on the sidewalk you should act like a pedestrian, for everyone’s safety. If there is a bike lane/acceptable shoulder, you should be riding on that.

cultus 7y ago

The examples given were cars that failed to yield way when legally required. Operators of heavy, high-velocity machinery should do so responsibly or not at all.

chrisseaton 7y ago

I think from the perspective of the cyclist, the car is behind them, and stationary. It isn't in their vision until it's too late, and it won't appear to be moving at all.

sleavey 7y ago
Correct - this is explained in the YouTube video linked above [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU

sitharus 7y ago

The Tom Scott video has a good animation on this: https://youtu.be/SYeeTvitvFU?t=119 https://youtu.be/SYeeTvitvFU?t=119 Because of the layout of the junction the cars are actually approaching from behind the cyclists.

heisenzombie 7y ago
Wow: The _very first_ car in that video to arrive at the stop sign fails to stop. Of the vehicles in the video we see traversing a stop sign, I count 5 cars that come to a stop and 5 that do not. (One bicycle crosses: it comes to a complete stop).
- Symbiote 7y ago
  That surprised me. Stop signs are so rare in the UK -- I can only think of one in the area I grew up -- that they're taken seriously. Or at least, I thought they were. "Until 2016, each stop sign had to be individually approved by the Secretary of State for Transport.", though that requirement has been removed.
- laurieg 7y ago
  The very first car in _that video_ fails to stop. You don't know how many times they recorded the intro. I'm not trying to imply Tom Scott is being dishonest. We just don't know from the video.
xxpor 7y ago
Why don't they just add a traffic light?
- 2019-nCoV 7y ago
  It is the UK. If they were to do anything a roundabout would be more suitable.
  - xxpor 7y ago
    Good point, it does look like there's enough room for one too.

downerending 7y ago

Presumably they do see them and just assume that they will yield. However legal that might be, it's quite foolish as a practical matter.(source: many years of bicycling) To stay alive, you have to start with the assumption that cars and trucks simply can't see you. I loved the visual presentation of the problem, but it's hard to fathom the objection to "stop" signs as a solution. At least here in the US, I regard every four-way intersection that doesn't have stop signs or lights as inherently dangerous (and I do indeed slow way down when encountering one). Had a friend once from a Middle Eastern country, and he described their protocol thus: When two drivers approach a four-way at right angles, they look at each other. The one that looks away first has the right of way. :-(