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There's a painful cognitive dissonance that people seem to have about this disease. If your lockdown stops the spread of the disease, your population doesn't ge

There's a painful cognitive dissonance that people seem to have about this disease. If your lockdown stops the spread of the disease, your population doesn't get immunity. No amount of infrastructure will allow the population to get immunity without all of the deaths that come with it. Absent effective medicines being developed, which are very unlikely to appear for a long time, countries need to consider that they're choosing somewhere to fall along a spectrum of disease, or disease + poverty. In Star Trek there's the famous unwinnable test, the kobayashi maru, and our hero Kirk says there's no such thing. This is the kind of naive arrogance that is going to amplify an already bad situation. I don't know much about India or its particular situation but rising food prices are going to be a hell of a struggle.

moeffju 7y ago
Aside from the fact that the jury's still out on whether infection actually confers immunity with Covid-19, the options are not just "get everyone infected" vs "eternal lockdown", you can actually suppress the disease to a level where new infections are rare and easily enough traced, or even completely absent.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- klmadfejno 7y ago
  You can do this in a closed system. India is not a closed system. At some point, someone is going to screw up. You can't shut down a city every time that happens.
  - ikiris 7y ago
    Evidence shows otherwise. You're even complaining about it.
    - klmadfejno 7y ago
      You're right, that's fair, technically India can do this if it wants to forever isolate itself from the rest of the global economy and into greater levels of poverty than ever before. I had assumed India didn't want to be a closed system.
- eloff 7y ago
  A lot of Asian countries are indeed showing that this is possible. That's good news! Good luck trying to contain the flu that way. SARS-COV2 seems to be very virulent, but not so virulent like flu or measles that it can't be contained.
  - sershe 7y ago
    Isn't R0 for COVID supposed to be much higher than flu? That was one of the major parts of the arguments for lockdown that I've seen.
    - eloff 7y ago
      It is, but paradoxically it also seems easier to control. Perhaps because while it is infectious through the air, it is maybe not infectious over the same distance - but not as infectious inside a close distance. I'm just guessing really. People say flu can't be controlled in the same manner. But we also haven't done that experiment like we're doing now. So maybe the people who say that are just wrong.
- rramadass 7y ago
  Thank you! Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand. This is what India is trying to achieve. Delay the spread (flatten the curve), ramp up health care facilities (doctors, beds and medicine), identify hot-spots and trace ruthlessly and finally hope that some medicine/vaccine would be quickly invented (the whole world is working on it).
flatTheCurve 7y ago
I've been saying this. People have no clue how pandemics work. With a 0.5% death rate, it seems like an emotional decision.
dirtyid 7y ago
Yeah, I don't see the point of crushing the curve in developing countries where it's not feasible to elevate substantially medical capacities. Where many people's ability to support themselves is a day by day process not paycheck to paycheck. It makes no sense to shut down hard other than political optics - all the rich countries are doing it therefore there's an expectation and pressure for leaders in these countries to as well, even though the outcomes will not be the same. Cure is worse than the disease territory. Developing countries with demographics that skew young might actually do better with herd immunity approach.
- arel 7y ago
  The point is avoiding mass death. They care about their families lives too and not just economics. It's not a 'political' choice or about 'optics'. It's also not just 'old' people who are dying. It affects 50+ year olds in not insignificant numbers. It depends whether you prioritise health or economics. You can balance health and economics and choose to prioritise one _before_ the other. It does however requires the political will to support the economy (and the poorest) whilst health care is prioritised to buy time during the exponential phase.
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    This is all theoretically true, but my inclination is that healthcare cannot be prioritized in a meaningful way within a meaningful time frame in many countries. I would love for India to succeed, but it seems incredibly unlikely that they can delay mass deaths for the time it will take to roll out a vaccine, because it does not seem possible for India to elevate medical access to comparable levels with developing countries per capita in the same time frame. So this delay is just heaping on unnecessary economic damage which in many ways is linked to health. Either way, I wish them the best.
mbrameld 7y ago
It's interesting that you mention cognitive dissonance while presenting a false dichotomy.
arel 7y ago
There's a painful cognitive dissonance that people seem to have about this disease - there isn't an option (unless you don't care about lots of people dying) where the economy doesn't take a big hit in order to contain the exponential phase. It's not clear what the alternatives are? I assume you're not advocating a no measures approach. No lockdown even with social distancing still does huge economic damage and even then you would not get herd immunity - 60% infection rate is required.
fzeroracer 7y ago
This is ignoring that disease immunity can massively vary, and if the antibodies only confer immunity for a few months, then this naive approach means we're back to step 1 relatively quickly. This also ignores the potential for a chickenpox-like situation where the virus could reactivate itself, in which case exposing our population to the disease is just going to cause further issues down the line.
dorgo 7y ago
German government declined the herd immunity strategy with the argument that for it to succseed in a year's time we have to increase the rate of new infections every day to 70k. No way our health care system can handle this. And there is also no need since we expect to have a vaccine ready in one year.
- nsxwolf 7y ago
  We have been told to expect a vaccine ready in about a year, but this seems to be based on wishful thinking. There's no guarantee any of these candidates will be any more successful than all the HIV and herpes simplex vaccines we've watched fail again and again for decades.

moeffju 7y ago

Aside from the fact that the jury's still out on whether infection actually confers immunity with Covid-19, the options are not just "get everyone infected" vs "eternal lockdown", you can actually suppress the disease to a level where new infections are rare and easily enough traced, or even completely absent.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
klmadfejno 7y ago
You can do this in a closed system. India is not a closed system. At some point, someone is going to screw up. You can't shut down a city every time that happens.
- ikiris 7y ago
  Evidence shows otherwise. You're even complaining about it.
  - klmadfejno 7y ago
    You're right, that's fair, technically India can do this if it wants to forever isolate itself from the rest of the global economy and into greater levels of poverty than ever before. I had assumed India didn't want to be a closed system.
eloff 7y ago
A lot of Asian countries are indeed showing that this is possible. That's good news! Good luck trying to contain the flu that way. SARS-COV2 seems to be very virulent, but not so virulent like flu or measles that it can't be contained.
- sershe 7y ago
  Isn't R0 for COVID supposed to be much higher than flu? That was one of the major parts of the arguments for lockdown that I've seen.
  - eloff 7y ago
    It is, but paradoxically it also seems easier to control. Perhaps because while it is infectious through the air, it is maybe not infectious over the same distance - but not as infectious inside a close distance. I'm just guessing really. People say flu can't be controlled in the same manner. But we also haven't done that experiment like we're doing now. So maybe the people who say that are just wrong.
rramadass 7y ago
Thank you! Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand. This is what India is trying to achieve. Delay the spread (flatten the curve), ramp up health care facilities (doctors, beds and medicine), identify hot-spots and trace ruthlessly and finally hope that some medicine/vaccine would be quickly invented (the whole world is working on it).

flatTheCurve 7y ago

I've been saying this. People have no clue how pandemics work. With a 0.5% death rate, it seems like an emotional decision.

dirtyid 7y ago

Yeah, I don't see the point of crushing the curve in developing countries where it's not feasible to elevate substantially medical capacities. Where many people's ability to support themselves is a day by day process not paycheck to paycheck. It makes no sense to shut down hard other than political optics - all the rich countries are doing it therefore there's an expectation and pressure for leaders in these countries to as well, even though the outcomes will not be the same. Cure is worse than the disease territory. Developing countries with demographics that skew young might actually do better with herd immunity approach.

arel 7y ago
The point is avoiding mass death. They care about their families lives too and not just economics. It's not a 'political' choice or about 'optics'. It's also not just 'old' people who are dying. It affects 50+ year olds in not insignificant numbers. It depends whether you prioritise health or economics. You can balance health and economics and choose to prioritise one _before_ the other. It does however requires the political will to support the economy (and the poorest) whilst health care is prioritised to buy time during the exponential phase.
- dirtyid 7y ago
  This is all theoretically true, but my inclination is that healthcare cannot be prioritized in a meaningful way within a meaningful time frame in many countries. I would love for India to succeed, but it seems incredibly unlikely that they can delay mass deaths for the time it will take to roll out a vaccine, because it does not seem possible for India to elevate medical access to comparable levels with developing countries per capita in the same time frame. So this delay is just heaping on unnecessary economic damage which in many ways is linked to health. Either way, I wish them the best.

mbrameld 7y ago

It's interesting that you mention cognitive dissonance while presenting a false dichotomy.

arel 7y ago

There's a painful cognitive dissonance that people seem to have about this disease - there isn't an option (unless you don't care about lots of people dying) where the economy doesn't take a big hit in order to contain the exponential phase. It's not clear what the alternatives are? I assume you're not advocating a no measures approach. No lockdown even with social distancing still does huge economic damage and even then you would not get herd immunity - 60% infection rate is required.

fzeroracer 7y ago

This is ignoring that disease immunity can massively vary, and if the antibodies only confer immunity for a few months, then this naive approach means we're back to step 1 relatively quickly. This also ignores the potential for a chickenpox-like situation where the virus could reactivate itself, in which case exposing our population to the disease is just going to cause further issues down the line.

dorgo 7y ago

German government declined the herd immunity strategy with the argument that for it to succseed in a year's time we have to increase the rate of new infections every day to 70k. No way our health care system can handle this. And there is also no need since we expect to have a vaccine ready in one year.

nsxwolf 7y ago
We have been told to expect a vaccine ready in about a year, but this seems to be based on wishful thinking. There's no guarantee any of these candidates will be any more successful than all the HIV and herpes simplex vaccines we've watched fail again and again for decades.