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Given how much Bezos has added to his personal net worth during the pandemic ($24B [1]), perhaps its time for governments to expect better treatment for Amazon

by beloch 7y ago

Given how much Bezos has added to his personal net worth during the pandemic ($24B [1]), perhaps its time for governments to expect better treatment for Amazon employees... or else. Charges of pandemic profiteering could be convincingly brought to bear. [1]https://fortune.com/2020/04/14/jeff-bezos-net-worth-2020-billionaires-amzn-amazon-stock/ https://fortune.com/2020/04/14/jeff-bezos-net-worth-2020-bil...

nojito 7y ago
I would expect HN of all places to know the difference between paper and liquid net worth. People are stuck at home and as result are forced to shop online which results in increase revenue for the largest online commerce store.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  And? With increased revenue Amazon can probably afford to pay their workers more.
  - TylerE 7y ago
    Why? Their margins haven’t changed. If anything, they’re tighter than usual due to extra precautions
    - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
      Well, it’s more like they should have been paying their workers more for a while. Now is as good a time as any to make good on a well deserved compensation increase.
      - rsj_hn 7y ago
        Why do you think they should pay their workers more? Do you have data that they are paying below market wages? If they are paying below market wages, then how are they able to hire so many people? Median pay for Amazon is $14 per hour, whereas median hourly wage for warehouse employees is $13, so it appears that Amazon pays a small premium over the market wage. What makes you so special that your gut feeling of Amazon is something that people should pay attention to, rather than market wages?
        TaylorAlexander 7y ago
        I don’t believe it makes sense to expose each individual person to “raw market forces” such that without a job they would die. At least not in a society as wealthy as ours. Much to your surprise you will find that I believe this can be done through libertarian means. This is an area of study and great interest for me. But if you follow my theory to it’s conclusion you would find that nobody would be willing to work a shitty job for a low wage. And so, to make things work, the market would balance to higher wages. However it wouldn’t hurt anyone for Amazon to raise wages now. It seems inhuman to me what amazon workers are expected to go through. (I feel this way about other and more exploitative labor situations too.) So the market would require higher wages if we weren’t all individualized. It’s my greatest hope to help bring us all closer together in a libertarian way such that no one wants for food or shelter.
        TylerE 7y ago
        > And so, to make things work, the market would balance to higher wages Which leaves no one better off. If what costs $50 last year now costs $80, I'm actually worse off if I'm making $20/hr instead of $15.
        monadgonad 7y ago
        The money shouldn't come from increasing product prices. It should come from giving less to executives, shareholders, etc.
        rsj_hn 7y ago
        It shouldn't, huh? Do you also have an opinion on how a combustion engine should work? Is it wrong to have pistons?
        monadgonad 6y ago
        "The market" is determined by people's choices, not fundamental laws of physics. We absolutely can dictate how it should work and the existence of any law that restricts the market from being completely free - from forbidding child labour to setting a minimum wage to antitrust - does exactly that.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      Amazon just cut its affiliate commissions by 25-75% depending on the category. https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/14/21221326/amazon-affiliate-marketing-links-commerce-commission-cuts https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/14/21221326/amazon-affiliate...
  - BoorishBears 7y ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/24/21234936/amazon-wage-increase-warehouse-worker-coronavirus-covid https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/24/21234936/amazon-wage-incr... ?
  - nojito 7y ago
    Sure..but what does that have to do with Bezo's paper net worth?
    - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
      The media like to focus on Bezos because he’s literally the richest man on earth. But what they’re getting at is that Amazon the corporation should pay its workers more. They’re using Bezos as a talking point, but don’t focus too intently on that. What matters is how little workers are paid for such a lucrative business.
      - Polylactic_acid 7y ago
        Focusing on begging bezos to bless his workers with a livable wage seems like the wrong angle. It should be illegal for such a business to operate this way to begin with.
      - nojito 7y ago
        On paper sure... But Buffett and Gates are far wealthier than Bezos. >What matters is how little workers are paid for such a lucrative business. What's so lucrative in running a warehouse that packages shipments to people?
        TaylorAlexander 7y ago
        > What's so lucrative in running a warehouse that packages shipments to people? I had to check the definition of lucrative to make sure I wasn’t missing anything, but it seems to be both something that generates wealth and/or something that generates profit. There can be no question that amazon generates wealth. The company is now worth almost 1.2 trillion dollars [1], and the founder is now on paper the wealthiest man on earth. The company also generates quite significant profits, after its initial long phase of investment in growth. “Amazon annual net income for 2019 was $11.588B, a 15.04% increase from 2018.” [2] Technically you asked what makes the business lucrative, not whether or not it is in fact lucrative. Well I am not qualified to articulate why the business is lucrative but with 11.5B in net income last year and a total value of 1.2 trillion, there is certainly no question that it is somehow quite lucrative. [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/market-cap https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/market... [2] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/net-income https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/net-in...
  - jedberg 7y ago
    Increased revenue comes with increased costs. They may actually be making less profit. We’ll find out this week when the post their earnings.
    - rescripting 7y ago
      Like economies of scale, but backwards? This makes no sense to me. Amazon was built to extract value from volume.
      - jedberg 7y ago
        Slowly increased volume yes, a sudden burst of volume is a whole different story. For example right now they are trying to hire 100,000 people to cover the increased demand. In the meantime, they are making their existing people do the work of those 100,000, or letting the work go undone. In both cases that's lost profits.
        Retric 7y ago
        It’s lost revenue not lost profits. Amazon can sort orders by profit and thus have profit increase as a larger percentage of work goes undone.
        jedberg 7y ago
        That's not how real life works though. There is lost profits in unfulfilled orders beyond just the original profit, in terms of customer service overhead and warehouse overhead. Also, paying someone to work overtime to serve the same orders is most definitely lost profit, because it costs more to deliver the service. Amazon's systems aren't designed for this type of sudden surge. They usually have to ramp up and prepare for it (like around Christmas).
        Retric 7y ago
        This is hardly the first time their system has been overwhelmed, it’s designed to be robust and maximize profit. Further, a simple ships in X weeks gives them plenty of time to ramp up staff. It comes down to the software side of their business, and they have some great back end software.
  - Nevada-Smith 7y ago
    One is not paid what one is worth--rather, one is paid for what the job is worth.
  - Aunche 7y ago
    Or they can simply hire more people, which they’re doing. I’m not saying Amazon employees are greedy, but I find it ironic that people claim that the altruistic thing to do is to concentrate wealth into the hands of fewer people.
    - scollet 7y ago
      > people claim that the altruistic thing to do is to concentrate wealth into the hands of fewer people. I am actually astounded that I just read those words in regards to minimum-wage employees. Considering the context - Jeff Bezos' worth and Amazon's margins - it is absolutely boggling. Is this a sarcastic comment? If not, I have a genuine press. Can Amazon not do both increasing their mailroom labour and increasing pay/benefits at the same time? I am absolutely impressed either way.
      - Aunche 7y ago
        I’m astounded that you literally did no research in this matter before commenting. Amazon has had a minimum wage of $15 for a couple years now. They’re paying an additional $2 for everyone now to account for the coronavirus, though it sounds temporary.
        scollet 7y ago
        Yes. It does not refute my point on hipocracy.
- gnopgnip 7y ago
  The US is approaching 20% unemployment. The stock market dropped ~32% from the peak, and is down about 15% from the former peak presently. But the richest person in the world has 50% more money than they did 6 months ago.
  - nojito 7y ago
    On Paper... Converting his Paper wealth into Liquid wealth is downright impossible for Bezos. Which is why he limited to pre arranged to divestment plans.
KorematsuFred 7y ago
> perhaps its time for governments to expect better treatment for Amazon employees. Not sure why it is government's business unless some law is being violated. Using government to enforce "I feel good about it" policies through violence is a sure shot way to harming everyone. Treatment given to Amazon (or any other employee) employee has nothing to do with the profits of the company, it is all about what the competitors are able to give to those employees. Constant vilification of factories and large manufacturing corps eventually took all those jobs to China, same might happen with tech companies as well.
- itake 7y ago
  Instead of the companies footing the full bill of their comp, the employees have to lean on social programs to survive.
tootie 7y ago
His net worth went up because investors bid his stock up because he was able to sell a lot of stuff that brick and mortars couldn't. There's no proof of profiteering. I think the worker safety issues are completely orthogonal and shouldn't have anything to do with how profitable you are. In fact, you'll like find far worse conditions (and more tax evasion) in small local businesses than Amazon.
koheripbal 7y ago
If a company's stock price increase, does that mean a company should pay workers higher than market salaries?
- DaniloDias 7y ago
  No. Hopefully those companies do stock grants, so the workers can get a cut of the growth.
  - plandis 7y ago
    In Amazons case that is what happens.
    - three_seagrass 7y ago
      Hasn't been that way for years: https://fortune.com/2018/10/03/amazon-warehouse-workers-minimum-wage-incentives-stock-options/ https://fortune.com/2018/10/03/amazon-warehouse-workers-mini...

by beloch 7y ago

nojito 7y ago

I would expect HN of all places to know the difference between paper and liquid net worth. People are stuck at home and as result are forced to shop online which results in increase revenue for the largest online commerce store.

TaylorAlexander 7y ago
And? With increased revenue Amazon can probably afford to pay their workers more.
- TylerE 7y ago
  Why? Their margins haven’t changed. If anything, they’re tighter than usual due to extra precautions
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    Well, it’s more like they should have been paying their workers more for a while. Now is as good a time as any to make good on a well deserved compensation increase.
    - rsj_hn 7y ago
      Why do you think they should pay their workers more? Do you have data that they are paying below market wages? If they are paying below market wages, then how are they able to hire so many people? Median pay for Amazon is $14 per hour, whereas median hourly wage for warehouse employees is $13, so it appears that Amazon pays a small premium over the market wage. What makes you so special that your gut feeling of Amazon is something that people should pay attention to, rather than market wages?
      - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
        I don’t believe it makes sense to expose each individual person to “raw market forces” such that without a job they would die. At least not in a society as wealthy as ours. Much to your surprise you will find that I believe this can be done through libertarian means. This is an area of study and great interest for me. But if you follow my theory to it’s conclusion you would find that nobody would be willing to work a shitty job for a low wage. And so, to make things work, the market would balance to higher wages. However it wouldn’t hurt anyone for Amazon to raise wages now. It seems inhuman to me what amazon workers are expected to go through. (I feel this way about other and more exploitative labor situations too.) So the market would require higher wages if we weren’t all individualized. It’s my greatest hope to help bring us all closer together in a libertarian way such that no one wants for food or shelter.
        TylerE 7y ago
        > And so, to make things work, the market would balance to higher wages Which leaves no one better off. If what costs $50 last year now costs $80, I'm actually worse off if I'm making $20/hr instead of $15.
        monadgonad 7y ago
        The money shouldn't come from increasing product prices. It should come from giving less to executives, shareholders, etc.
        rsj_hn 7y ago
        It shouldn't, huh? Do you also have an opinion on how a combustion engine should work? Is it wrong to have pistons?
        monadgonad 6y ago
        "The market" is determined by people's choices, not fundamental laws of physics. We absolutely can dictate how it should work and the existence of any law that restricts the market from being completely free - from forbidding child labour to setting a minimum wage to antitrust - does exactly that.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Amazon just cut its affiliate commissions by 25-75% depending on the category. https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/14/21221326/amazon-affiliate-marketing-links-commerce-commission-cuts https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/14/21221326/amazon-affiliate...
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/24/21234936/amazon-wage-increase-warehouse-worker-coronavirus-covid https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/24/21234936/amazon-wage-incr... ?
- nojito 7y ago
  Sure..but what does that have to do with Bezo's paper net worth?
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    The media like to focus on Bezos because he’s literally the richest man on earth. But what they’re getting at is that Amazon the corporation should pay its workers more. They’re using Bezos as a talking point, but don’t focus too intently on that. What matters is how little workers are paid for such a lucrative business.
    - Polylactic_acid 7y ago
      Focusing on begging bezos to bless his workers with a livable wage seems like the wrong angle. It should be illegal for such a business to operate this way to begin with.
    - nojito 7y ago
      On paper sure... But Buffett and Gates are far wealthier than Bezos. >What matters is how little workers are paid for such a lucrative business. What's so lucrative in running a warehouse that packages shipments to people?
      - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
        > What's so lucrative in running a warehouse that packages shipments to people? I had to check the definition of lucrative to make sure I wasn’t missing anything, but it seems to be both something that generates wealth and/or something that generates profit. There can be no question that amazon generates wealth. The company is now worth almost 1.2 trillion dollars [1], and the founder is now on paper the wealthiest man on earth. The company also generates quite significant profits, after its initial long phase of investment in growth. “Amazon annual net income for 2019 was $11.588B, a 15.04% increase from 2018.” [2] Technically you asked what makes the business lucrative, not whether or not it is in fact lucrative. Well I am not qualified to articulate why the business is lucrative but with 11.5B in net income last year and a total value of 1.2 trillion, there is certainly no question that it is somehow quite lucrative. [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/market-cap https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/market... [2] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/net-income https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/net-in...
- jedberg 7y ago
  Increased revenue comes with increased costs. They may actually be making less profit. We’ll find out this week when the post their earnings.
  - rescripting 7y ago
    Like economies of scale, but backwards? This makes no sense to me. Amazon was built to extract value from volume.
    - jedberg 7y ago
      Slowly increased volume yes, a sudden burst of volume is a whole different story. For example right now they are trying to hire 100,000 people to cover the increased demand. In the meantime, they are making their existing people do the work of those 100,000, or letting the work go undone. In both cases that's lost profits.
      - Retric 7y ago
        It’s lost revenue not lost profits. Amazon can sort orders by profit and thus have profit increase as a larger percentage of work goes undone.
        jedberg 7y ago
        That's not how real life works though. There is lost profits in unfulfilled orders beyond just the original profit, in terms of customer service overhead and warehouse overhead. Also, paying someone to work overtime to serve the same orders is most definitely lost profit, because it costs more to deliver the service. Amazon's systems aren't designed for this type of sudden surge. They usually have to ramp up and prepare for it (like around Christmas).
        Retric 7y ago
        This is hardly the first time their system has been overwhelmed, it’s designed to be robust and maximize profit. Further, a simple ships in X weeks gives them plenty of time to ramp up staff. It comes down to the software side of their business, and they have some great back end software.
- Nevada-Smith 7y ago
  One is not paid what one is worth--rather, one is paid for what the job is worth.
- Aunche 7y ago
  Or they can simply hire more people, which they’re doing. I’m not saying Amazon employees are greedy, but I find it ironic that people claim that the altruistic thing to do is to concentrate wealth into the hands of fewer people.
  - scollet 7y ago
    > people claim that the altruistic thing to do is to concentrate wealth into the hands of fewer people. I am actually astounded that I just read those words in regards to minimum-wage employees. Considering the context - Jeff Bezos' worth and Amazon's margins - it is absolutely boggling. Is this a sarcastic comment? If not, I have a genuine press. Can Amazon not do both increasing their mailroom labour and increasing pay/benefits at the same time? I am absolutely impressed either way.
    - Aunche 7y ago
      I’m astounded that you literally did no research in this matter before commenting. Amazon has had a minimum wage of $15 for a couple years now. They’re paying an additional $2 for everyone now to account for the coronavirus, though it sounds temporary.
      - scollet 7y ago
        Yes. It does not refute my point on hipocracy.
gnopgnip 7y ago
The US is approaching 20% unemployment. The stock market dropped ~32% from the peak, and is down about 15% from the former peak presently. But the richest person in the world has 50% more money than they did 6 months ago.
- nojito 7y ago
  On Paper... Converting his Paper wealth into Liquid wealth is downright impossible for Bezos. Which is why he limited to pre arranged to divestment plans.

KorematsuFred 7y ago

> perhaps its time for governments to expect better treatment for Amazon employees. Not sure why it is government's business unless some law is being violated. Using government to enforce "I feel good about it" policies through violence is a sure shot way to harming everyone. Treatment given to Amazon (or any other employee) employee has nothing to do with the profits of the company, it is all about what the competitors are able to give to those employees. Constant vilification of factories and large manufacturing corps eventually took all those jobs to China, same might happen with tech companies as well.

itake 7y ago
Instead of the companies footing the full bill of their comp, the employees have to lean on social programs to survive.

tootie 7y ago

His net worth went up because investors bid his stock up because he was able to sell a lot of stuff that brick and mortars couldn't. There's no proof of profiteering. I think the worker safety issues are completely orthogonal and shouldn't have anything to do with how profitable you are. In fact, you'll like find far worse conditions (and more tax evasion) in small local businesses than Amazon.

koheripbal 7y ago

If a company's stock price increase, does that mean a company should pay workers higher than market salaries?

DaniloDias 7y ago
No. Hopefully those companies do stock grants, so the workers can get a cut of the growth.
- plandis 7y ago
  In Amazons case that is what happens.
  - three_seagrass 7y ago
    Hasn't been that way for years: https://fortune.com/2018/10/03/amazon-warehouse-workers-minimum-wage-incentives-stock-options/ https://fortune.com/2018/10/03/amazon-warehouse-workers-mini...