7 ms·

Probing Facebook's Misinformation Machine

125 points by sebwi 6y ago

jlei523 6y ago
For many years, I resisted from using Facebook. Recently, I started using it more to connect with friends and family. And holy shit. The amount of misinformation, fake news, and conspiracy theories on Facebook is insane. Facebook is a machine that breeds extremists. I now understand the #deleteFacebook movement much more where I previously thought it wasn't a big deal.
- shlo22 6y ago
  Twitter also breeds extremist - unlike Facebook the entire reward system on that site encourages out-extreming each other
  - jlei523 6y ago
    Yes agreed. I tried using Twitter to promote my work but I found Twitter to be even more toxic than Facebook in general and have since quit. I'd argue that Reddit also does the same thing. On Reddit, you can always find a community that agrees with your radical thinking. Reddit also has a problem with groupthink where the upvoting system heavily rewards popular opinion, even if it's false. In this day and age, I find that not participating in social networks makes me a happier and less radical person. If I do partake in them, I limit myself to generally harmless hobby and work-related communities.
    - shlo22 6y ago
      Yep, in Reddit there is organized trolling between subs and many subs have been banned due to this kind of targeting. Even the news is based on getting anger clicks so it's hard to escape
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - keenmaster 6y ago
      Honestly, I’m not as concerned with Reddit. It allows a greater degree of self-selection, it has community moderation, and bots are easier to spot.
      - encom 6y ago
        It's the community moderation that's a problem on Reddit, because any kind of dissenting opinion is immediately wiped out, when it goes against the group think. And the group think is leaning very heavily to the left on Reddit. The most prominent example is supporters of Donald Trump being forced off-site, but any kind of conservative or right-leaning community or politically incorrect community is being forced out. I was there for about 10 years, and a few months ago my account got temp-banned because I said a naughty word. So I deleted my account and left the place for good. Some people on the extreme right have congregated elsewhere, but I'm not sure where right-leaning centrists are supposed to go.
        htfu 6y ago
        > The most prominent example is supporters of Donald Trump being forced off-site, but any kind of conservative or right-leaning community or politically incorrect community is being forced out. Do you have any concrete examples of this? I won't pretend I'm up to speed on the subject but this just strikes me as incredibly heavily exaggerated.
        encom 6y ago
        I just had a look at /r/reclassified and saw that /r/GavinMcInnes has been banned. He's a conservative talkshow host. While I was still around, /r/ClownWorld and /r/CringeAnarchy got banned too. Both were critical of extreme leftwing politics, while being politically incorrent. /r/SargonOfAkkad is quarantined, meaning it's circling the drain before being banned. Actually just browsing /r/reclassified sorted by top posts brings up a lot of examples. It's not all political of course, there are literal CP subs getting axed like /r/AgePlayPenpals, but banned subreddits are overwhelmingly either conservative, anti-feminist or edgy or equivalent.
  - sdoering 6y ago
    For some years now I had not visited Twitter. Over the last three days I followed links to Twitter because they got pushed into my way. Man was I taken aback every single time. The initial tweets referred to me were quite interesting nuggets. But once I started scrolling some distance down I was immediately in a strange land of turf wars between different groups of tin foil hat people. And people promoting their fake COVID views all over. From that it was just a short step to adding twitter to my blocked hosts file.
    - jlei523 6y ago
      Same! The initial tweets are generally ok. But as soon as you scroll down, the comments make you want to throw up.
    - intopieces 6y ago
      I have twitter, facebook, instagram, reddit all blocked. I seem to benefit from a feature in iMessage where Apple will proxy the content to show the preview in-line, but I’m not able to click through to the actual site. This is nice, because people can share funny tweets with me and I can respond to that person only, without getting sucked in.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  Facebook is a machine that breeds extremists. Facebook is, more accurately, a machine designed to maximise the amount of time you spend on Facebook. It just so happens that the maxima for that is to provoke arguments. That is why the only safe exposure is zero. You can’t beat a machine that is using every single interaction with you against you. Even people who imagine they’re battling disinformation are in reality, just being held in place to be exposed to more ads.
  - beerandt 6y ago
    Facebook is a machine built to amplify influence. It just doesn't know how to exploit users influence without allowing them to express their individual views, extreme or not. More to the point, Facebook is designed to maximize how much marketing influence it has over you, which it does both by maximising time and exploiting the existing trust you have in Facebook friends, to convert that into implied endorsements and peer pressure or popularity based groupthink. Or exploit your mental state of engagement to equate content from an ad with content from a friend. Which I point out, because Facebook is basically working as intended, they're just upset that they've built a machine which (by it's design and very nature) they can't monopolize control of the content of influence, since they rely on amplifing users' influence to express theirs (or their advertiser's). Like most tools, it inherently just does a job, which is to get you to to influence your friends. Just like real life, friends can be a good influence or a bad one.
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      Indeed. Two friends conversing on Facebook are misled into believing that they’re talking to each other, whereas in reality they are both having solo conversations with Facebook itself. But I don’t think Facebook -the algo - really cares about which way it influences it’s captive audience. It just wants more ads to be shown. It’s up to the humans in charge to decide on what those ads are, and they are very bad at it. Or they don’t care either.
pjc50 6y ago
We should apply the lessons we're all learning from real world epidemiology against all the harmful memes: - use masks => use adblock to avoid contaminants - cleaning => regularly review who you follow. You're allowing them write access to your brain, and there's some evidence that the subconscious hangs on to ideas even if you intellectually know they're not true - social distancing => mute, block, or defriend superspreaders - testing => get things checked by a credible authority that's outside the disinfo bubble - self-isolation => get off Facebook and encourage others to do so, unless you've already managed to disinfect your feed to an adequate extent The virus merely gains life from spreading. The disinformation is being actively injected by political actors, some of whom (but absolutely not all or even a majority!) are sponsored by hostile governments; and also by profiteers. The "bleach drinking" thing didn't come from nowhere, there's a group out there selling it as "miracle mineral solution". Straight old fashioned toxic snake oil vendors who want your money and don't care about killing you or your family. Stay safe.
- sdoering 6y ago
  Actually I am doing a lot of this already. But never grasped the analogy until now. Thanks for opening this way of thought. I probably will be even more thorough in my digital hygiene.
- thecureforzits 6y ago
  This is all fine and good, but we still need some regulation. Most misinformation can indeed be addressed with an individual education and protection based approach as you describe, but this situation is different. Falling for misinformation and propaganda about coronavirus can lead directly to not just your own death, but that of others. You absolutely have the right to kill yourself through ignorance or paranoia, but you do not have the right to kill me or my family with it too.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    > but we still need some regulation In the spirit of GP's post, let's try translating the regulations around the ongoing pandemic to the efforts at regulating memetic safety. - mandatory mask use in public => mandatory use of ad blockers in browsers (could you imagine that?) - suspension of non-essential business => that would translate to severe restrictions on freedom of communications, so let's not go there (also, on pandemic front, it's getting increasingly problematic, as the consequences to supply chains start to become worrying) - mandatory social distancing => regulations limiting publishing and bulk communication; in case of information spread, that could do more harm than good - testing => authorities getting proactively engaged in identifying misinformation; that doesn't translate too well, because what is or isn't a pathogen is clear in a way that doesn't apply to harmful memes - quarantines => once you get caught spreading bullshit, your social media should become read-only for 14 or more days Just a thought experiment done on the spot.
notRobot 6y ago
I wish more people and outlets would correctly use the terms "misinformation" and "disinformation". I understand that they've come to mean the same thing, but the latter term makes the intent behind the content these refer to much more clear. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/163857/what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-misinformation-and-disinformation https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/163857/what-exac...
- tiny_epoch 6y ago
  Mainstream media outlets employ people who know the difference between these words; they're editors and journalists, and words and their meanings don't escape them. Because of this, I infer intent when I see these terms conflated. Its "the power of the pen" -- they write the words and hence choose the words. I'm probably wrong about there being intent, though. Unfortunately, I don't have any solutions to this that don't feel draconian. Mandating the use of words is absurd. I'd like to think that widespread education on the topic would help. But then, that didn't work out too well for "hacker vs. cracker" in the past, and given how many people can't get they're/there/their right, this might not be possible to solve. Removing the requirement that media outlets make a profit might help? But I have no idea how to get there from here. I'm hoping someone will post a reasonable suggestion I can support and put into practice in my small corner of the world.
- m463 6y ago
  So Facebook's privacy policy? Disinformation?
abdj 6y ago
Thanks to visiting the website, now FB knows I am interested in whatever category of information 'it' thinks getrevue.co belongs to.
- bryan_w 6y ago
  Why wouldn't you use an ad blocker or a browser that blocks 3rd party cookies if you're concerned about that?
- simonft2 6y ago
  How? Revue shouldn't be passing any information along to Facebook on that page.
  - abdj 6y ago
    The site has FB share button, enough for FB to track.
lopmotr 6y ago
People have no business complaining about misinformation while accepting religion. Religions are of course far more dangerous than "5G causes coronavirus". But somehow it's now taboo to criticize religions and feels like we're heading back to the bad old days of blasphemy being a crime.
- dang 6y ago
  Religious flamewar is off topic here, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

125 points by sebwi 6y ago

For many years, I resisted from using Facebook. Recently, I started using it more to connect with friends and family. And holy shit. The amount of misinformation, fake news, and conspiracy theories on Facebook is insane. Facebook is a machine that breeds extremists. I now understand the #deleteFacebook movement much more where I previously thought it wasn't a big deal.

shlo22 6y ago
Twitter also breeds extremist - unlike Facebook the entire reward system on that site encourages out-extreming each other
- jlei523 6y ago
  Yes agreed. I tried using Twitter to promote my work but I found Twitter to be even more toxic than Facebook in general and have since quit. I'd argue that Reddit also does the same thing. On Reddit, you can always find a community that agrees with your radical thinking. Reddit also has a problem with groupthink where the upvoting system heavily rewards popular opinion, even if it's false. In this day and age, I find that not participating in social networks makes me a happier and less radical person. If I do partake in them, I limit myself to generally harmless hobby and work-related communities.
  - shlo22 6y ago
    Yep, in Reddit there is organized trolling between subs and many subs have been banned due to this kind of targeting. Even the news is based on getting anger clicks so it's hard to escape
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - keenmaster 6y ago
    Honestly, I’m not as concerned with Reddit. It allows a greater degree of self-selection, it has community moderation, and bots are easier to spot.
    - encom 6y ago
      It's the community moderation that's a problem on Reddit, because any kind of dissenting opinion is immediately wiped out, when it goes against the group think. And the group think is leaning very heavily to the left on Reddit. The most prominent example is supporters of Donald Trump being forced off-site, but any kind of conservative or right-leaning community or politically incorrect community is being forced out. I was there for about 10 years, and a few months ago my account got temp-banned because I said a naughty word. So I deleted my account and left the place for good. Some people on the extreme right have congregated elsewhere, but I'm not sure where right-leaning centrists are supposed to go.
      - htfu 6y ago
        > The most prominent example is supporters of Donald Trump being forced off-site, but any kind of conservative or right-leaning community or politically incorrect community is being forced out. Do you have any concrete examples of this? I won't pretend I'm up to speed on the subject but this just strikes me as incredibly heavily exaggerated.
        encom 6y ago
        I just had a look at /r/reclassified and saw that /r/GavinMcInnes has been banned. He's a conservative talkshow host. While I was still around, /r/ClownWorld and /r/CringeAnarchy got banned too. Both were critical of extreme leftwing politics, while being politically incorrent. /r/SargonOfAkkad is quarantined, meaning it's circling the drain before being banned. Actually just browsing /r/reclassified sorted by top posts brings up a lot of examples. It's not all political of course, there are literal CP subs getting axed like /r/AgePlayPenpals, but banned subreddits are overwhelmingly either conservative, anti-feminist or edgy or equivalent.
- sdoering 6y ago
  For some years now I had not visited Twitter. Over the last three days I followed links to Twitter because they got pushed into my way. Man was I taken aback every single time. The initial tweets referred to me were quite interesting nuggets. But once I started scrolling some distance down I was immediately in a strange land of turf wars between different groups of tin foil hat people. And people promoting their fake COVID views all over. From that it was just a short step to adding twitter to my blocked hosts file.
  - jlei523 6y ago
    Same! The initial tweets are generally ok. But as soon as you scroll down, the comments make you want to throw up.
  - intopieces 6y ago
    I have twitter, facebook, instagram, reddit all blocked. I seem to benefit from a feature in iMessage where Apple will proxy the content to show the preview in-line, but I’m not able to click through to the actual site. This is nice, because people can share funny tweets with me and I can respond to that person only, without getting sucked in.
goatinaboat 6y ago
Facebook is a machine that breeds extremists. Facebook is, more accurately, a machine designed to maximise the amount of time you spend on Facebook. It just so happens that the maxima for that is to provoke arguments. That is why the only safe exposure is zero. You can’t beat a machine that is using every single interaction with you against you. Even people who imagine they’re battling disinformation are in reality, just being held in place to be exposed to more ads.
- beerandt 6y ago
  Facebook is a machine built to amplify influence. It just doesn't know how to exploit users influence without allowing them to express their individual views, extreme or not. More to the point, Facebook is designed to maximize how much marketing influence it has over you, which it does both by maximising time and exploiting the existing trust you have in Facebook friends, to convert that into implied endorsements and peer pressure or popularity based groupthink. Or exploit your mental state of engagement to equate content from an ad with content from a friend. Which I point out, because Facebook is basically working as intended, they're just upset that they've built a machine which (by it's design and very nature) they can't monopolize control of the content of influence, since they rely on amplifing users' influence to express theirs (or their advertiser's). Like most tools, it inherently just does a job, which is to get you to to influence your friends. Just like real life, friends can be a good influence or a bad one.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    Indeed. Two friends conversing on Facebook are misled into believing that they’re talking to each other, whereas in reality they are both having solo conversations with Facebook itself. But I don’t think Facebook -the algo - really cares about which way it influences it’s captive audience. It just wants more ads to be shown. It’s up to the humans in charge to decide on what those ads are, and they are very bad at it. Or they don’t care either.

pjc50 6y ago

We should apply the lessons we're all learning from real world epidemiology against all the harmful memes: - use masks => use adblock to avoid contaminants - cleaning => regularly review who you follow. You're allowing them write access to your brain, and there's some evidence that the subconscious hangs on to ideas even if you intellectually know they're not true - social distancing => mute, block, or defriend superspreaders - testing => get things checked by a credible authority that's outside the disinfo bubble - self-isolation => get off Facebook and encourage others to do so, unless you've already managed to disinfect your feed to an adequate extent The virus merely gains life from spreading. The disinformation is being actively injected by political actors, some of whom (but absolutely not all or even a majority!) are sponsored by hostile governments; and also by profiteers. The "bleach drinking" thing didn't come from nowhere, there's a group out there selling it as "miracle mineral solution". Straight old fashioned toxic snake oil vendors who want your money and don't care about killing you or your family. Stay safe.

sdoering 6y ago
Actually I am doing a lot of this already. But never grasped the analogy until now. Thanks for opening this way of thought. I probably will be even more thorough in my digital hygiene.
thecureforzits 6y ago
This is all fine and good, but we still need some regulation. Most misinformation can indeed be addressed with an individual education and protection based approach as you describe, but this situation is different. Falling for misinformation and propaganda about coronavirus can lead directly to not just your own death, but that of others. You absolutely have the right to kill yourself through ignorance or paranoia, but you do not have the right to kill me or my family with it too.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  > but we still need some regulation In the spirit of GP's post, let's try translating the regulations around the ongoing pandemic to the efforts at regulating memetic safety. - mandatory mask use in public => mandatory use of ad blockers in browsers (could you imagine that?) - suspension of non-essential business => that would translate to severe restrictions on freedom of communications, so let's not go there (also, on pandemic front, it's getting increasingly problematic, as the consequences to supply chains start to become worrying) - mandatory social distancing => regulations limiting publishing and bulk communication; in case of information spread, that could do more harm than good - testing => authorities getting proactively engaged in identifying misinformation; that doesn't translate too well, because what is or isn't a pathogen is clear in a way that doesn't apply to harmful memes - quarantines => once you get caught spreading bullshit, your social media should become read-only for 14 or more days Just a thought experiment done on the spot.

notRobot 6y ago

I wish more people and outlets would correctly use the terms "misinformation" and "disinformation". I understand that they've come to mean the same thing, but the latter term makes the intent behind the content these refer to much more clear. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/163857/what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-misinformation-and-disinformation https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/163857/what-exac...

tiny_epoch 6y ago
Mainstream media outlets employ people who know the difference between these words; they're editors and journalists, and words and their meanings don't escape them. Because of this, I infer intent when I see these terms conflated. Its "the power of the pen" -- they write the words and hence choose the words. I'm probably wrong about there being intent, though. Unfortunately, I don't have any solutions to this that don't feel draconian. Mandating the use of words is absurd. I'd like to think that widespread education on the topic would help. But then, that didn't work out too well for "hacker vs. cracker" in the past, and given how many people can't get they're/there/their right, this might not be possible to solve. Removing the requirement that media outlets make a profit might help? But I have no idea how to get there from here. I'm hoping someone will post a reasonable suggestion I can support and put into practice in my small corner of the world.
m463 6y ago
So Facebook's privacy policy? Disinformation?

abdj 6y ago

Thanks to visiting the website, now FB knows I am interested in whatever category of information 'it' thinks getrevue.co belongs to.

bryan_w 6y ago
Why wouldn't you use an ad blocker or a browser that blocks 3rd party cookies if you're concerned about that?
simonft2 6y ago
How? Revue shouldn't be passing any information along to Facebook on that page.
- abdj 6y ago
  The site has FB share button, enough for FB to track.

lopmotr 6y ago

People have no business complaining about misinformation while accepting religion. Religions are of course far more dangerous than "5G causes coronavirus". But somehow it's now taboo to criticize religions and feels like we're heading back to the bad old days of blasphemy being a crime.

dang 6y ago
Religious flamewar is off topic here, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html