7 ms·

Young and middle-aged people, barely sick with Covid-19, are dying from strokes

62 points by tartoran 7y ago

jules-jules 7y ago
Is there a non-paywalled link?
- _they 7y ago
  Not the same paper, but https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/929345 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/929345
salawat 7y ago
Mirror: http://archive.is/6OQQj http://archive.is/6OQQj
_bxg1 7y ago
Terrifying. But the silver lining is that they're catching on to the patterns, which means they can start adjusting treatments. I think that beyond just flattening the curve, delaying one's infection date right now probably has a significant impact on survivability simply because of how much we're still learning about this disease every week.
- chkaloon 7y ago
  Exactly. People are talking about "moving goal posts" because the curve has already been flattened. But if I get it, I want to be as far out on that curve a possible so doctors know better what to do about it.
  - vidanay 7y ago
    The fact that the curve is being flattened is exactly what ALLOWS investigation into these deeper insights. You can't measure infection rate when your patient is bleeding to death from an arterial wound.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    People are talking about "moving goal posts" because the goalposts have been moved. In my area, 3 weeks has become 6 weeks, and now that it's close to 6 weeks people I see a lot of comments like yours about whether we really need to go out at all. It's become increasingly clear that some activists think everyone should stay at home forever, and are attempting to trick the rest of us into going along with it by endlessly redefining when it's safe to leave. I'm fully in support of your individual right to isolate as long as you'd like, of course.
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      What a strange conspiracy theory to take up.
      - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
        I just don't see how it's a conspiracy. There are plenty of people who openly say that shutdown measures should be in place for a year or two - the Virginia health commissioner said it just yesterday! The only question is whether they'll be able to make that happen.
        _bxg1 7y ago
        > It's become increasingly clear that some activists think everyone should stay at home forever Who are these sinister activists that are just using the crisis as a tool to achieve their end-game of [checks notes] people never going outside again?
        SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
        Well, as I think you'll find I just mentioned, the Virginia health commissioner is one of them.
        loopz 7y ago
        They imagine to be living through a pandemic as well? Amazing. What nerves these people have.
  - rv-de 7y ago
    You know that joke about the two hikers who stumble upon a hungry bear and one of them goes about fastening his laces ... oddly fitting.
    - chkaloon 7y ago
      As they say, you don't need to out run the bear, only your partner
- ashtonkem 7y ago
  If you’ve got to get sick, you want to be either one of the first, when all resources are available, or one of the last when all the experience is available. You don’t want to get sick in the middle.
arpa 7y ago
First off, yes, Covid is real, it's way worse than flu, social distancing is essential, it's not 5g and not a government conspiracy. But I can not help but wonder - if we were to look for other variables, like, i don't know, eye color, isn't it likely that we would find a similar correlation? What is the model of action here and why are medical professionals so sure it was caused by covid? Maybe covid is a confounding variable, most apparent because we are mostly looking at it now?
- chkaloon 7y ago
  On "This Week in Virology", a podcast that's been going on for quite a while but just got popular (imagine that), this was discussed, and the consensus was that there is definitely something going with clotting mechanisms and Covid-19. They started treating with Warfarin and Heparin just like they do with older conventional stroke patients. It may also be implicated in the kidney failure that seems to associate with Covid As for me I'm going to keep taking a daily baby aspirin like I have for years. I bleed like a stuck pig when I get a cut, but I can live with that!
  - arpa 7y ago
    That's a very interesting fact. It makes the stroke being caused by covid more plausible.
- dmix 7y ago
  > Mocco, who has spent his career studying strokes and how to treat them, said he was “completely shocked” by the analysis. He noted the link between covid-19 and stroke “is one of the clearest and most profound correlations I’ve come across.”
  - arpa 7y ago
    Okay, let's burn more karma. Maybe there is some hidden variable that makes these young people more susceptible to covid. Correlation without a model of action is, well, a correlation. Clots from damaged lungs maybe? But clotting without lung damage is unlikely. It's very weird.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
symplee 7y ago
Not a doctor, just a thought, could this in part be caused by some sort of Deep Vein Thrombosis or other clots due to people not physically moving as much during quarantine?
- _bxg1 7y ago
  The part about clots forming literally as the surgeon was operating seems much more exotic than something so simple as reduced activity.
  - symplee 7y ago
    Did the earliest victims of Covid19 also show similar levels of clots? Or are we only seeing elevated levels recently? Could help to plot this over time as the lockdown extends. If there's a correlation, would help to stress the importance of staying active in quarantine, ex: lifting, stationary bike, jump rope.
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      I think there's a bias in the data because a) lots of people die from the respiratory symptoms before they get a stroke, and b) young people who get a stroke might not know how to recognize it/what to do about it, so they may just stay at home and die there and never get recorded as a COVID death.
- RealityVoid 7y ago
  A friend from Germany told me that they are looking exactly in this and they found that dead COVID-19 patients had clots. He's a smart and well informed guy and it made sense at the time, but I did not find some primary sources to corroborate.
- symplee 7y ago
  And maybe also dietary changes due to lockdown: Higher sodium, more preservatives, less fruit and vegetables. Less trips to grocery store means buying more food that has a longer shelf-life than people would normally be eating.
cmarschner 7y ago
Can someone explain to me why the number of daily infections in California is still going up despite home orders. I just saw this and it baffled me (European here).
- arpa 7y ago
  Latent phase coming to its end, perhaps?
blendo 7y ago
"Doctors are often able to reopen blocked blood vessels through techniques such as pulling out clots or inserting stents. But it has to be done quickly, ideally within six hours, but no longer than 24 hours: “The message we are trying to get out is if you have symptoms of stroke, you need to call the ambulance urgently. ”" After a family member's stroke, we were told that 4 hours is the magic number. Per the Mayo Clinic: "Therapy with drugs that can break up a clot has to be given within 4.5 hours from when symptoms first started if given intravenously. The sooner these drugs are given, the better. Quick treatment not only improves your chances of survival but also may reduce complications." https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/stroke/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20350119 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/stroke/diagno...
- _bxg1 7y ago
  I wonder if anybody's considered packaging these drugs up for home use? A "stroke EpiPen", if you will.
  - dahele 7y ago
    Interesting idea but unfortunately this isn’t feasible, unless you also have access to a full suite of diagnostic equipment at home. Even if someone at home could self-diagnose a stroke with any accuracy, around 10% of strokes are actually caused by haemorrhage (bleeding) rather than a clot. A CT scan is almost always carried out to rule this out, before administering thrombolytic drugs or aspirin, as these drugs can significantly worsen existing bleeding.
dogma1138 7y ago
This should be surprising to no one really flu and other respiratory illnesses have been known to increase stroke likelihood and severity considerably (upto 40% in the first 15 days), it also increases the likelihood of other cardiovascular conditions including cervical artery (CAD) and neck artery raptures.. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190130075757.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190130075757.h... https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/STROKEAHA.110.596783 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/STROKEAHA.110.59... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5899905/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5899905/

62 points by tartoran 7y ago

jules-jules 7y ago

Is there a non-paywalled link?

_they 7y ago
Not the same paper, but https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/929345 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/929345

salawat 7y ago

Mirror: http://archive.is/6OQQj http://archive.is/6OQQj

_bxg1 7y ago

Terrifying. But the silver lining is that they're catching on to the patterns, which means they can start adjusting treatments. I think that beyond just flattening the curve, delaying one's infection date right now probably has a significant impact on survivability simply because of how much we're still learning about this disease every week.

chkaloon 7y ago
Exactly. People are talking about "moving goal posts" because the curve has already been flattened. But if I get it, I want to be as far out on that curve a possible so doctors know better what to do about it.
- vidanay 7y ago
  The fact that the curve is being flattened is exactly what ALLOWS investigation into these deeper insights. You can't measure infection rate when your patient is bleeding to death from an arterial wound.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  People are talking about "moving goal posts" because the goalposts have been moved. In my area, 3 weeks has become 6 weeks, and now that it's close to 6 weeks people I see a lot of comments like yours about whether we really need to go out at all. It's become increasingly clear that some activists think everyone should stay at home forever, and are attempting to trick the rest of us into going along with it by endlessly redefining when it's safe to leave. I'm fully in support of your individual right to isolate as long as you'd like, of course.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    What a strange conspiracy theory to take up.
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      I just don't see how it's a conspiracy. There are plenty of people who openly say that shutdown measures should be in place for a year or two - the Virginia health commissioner said it just yesterday! The only question is whether they'll be able to make that happen.
      - _bxg1 7y ago
        > It's become increasingly clear that some activists think everyone should stay at home forever Who are these sinister activists that are just using the crisis as a tool to achieve their end-game of [checks notes] people never going outside again?
        SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
        Well, as I think you'll find I just mentioned, the Virginia health commissioner is one of them.
        loopz 7y ago
        They imagine to be living through a pandemic as well? Amazing. What nerves these people have.
- rv-de 7y ago
  You know that joke about the two hikers who stumble upon a hungry bear and one of them goes about fastening his laces ... oddly fitting.
  - chkaloon 7y ago
    As they say, you don't need to out run the bear, only your partner
ashtonkem 7y ago
If you’ve got to get sick, you want to be either one of the first, when all resources are available, or one of the last when all the experience is available. You don’t want to get sick in the middle.

arpa 7y ago

First off, yes, Covid is real, it's way worse than flu, social distancing is essential, it's not 5g and not a government conspiracy. But I can not help but wonder - if we were to look for other variables, like, i don't know, eye color, isn't it likely that we would find a similar correlation? What is the model of action here and why are medical professionals so sure it was caused by covid? Maybe covid is a confounding variable, most apparent because we are mostly looking at it now?

chkaloon 7y ago
On "This Week in Virology", a podcast that's been going on for quite a while but just got popular (imagine that), this was discussed, and the consensus was that there is definitely something going with clotting mechanisms and Covid-19. They started treating with Warfarin and Heparin just like they do with older conventional stroke patients. It may also be implicated in the kidney failure that seems to associate with Covid As for me I'm going to keep taking a daily baby aspirin like I have for years. I bleed like a stuck pig when I get a cut, but I can live with that!
- arpa 7y ago
  That's a very interesting fact. It makes the stroke being caused by covid more plausible.
dmix 7y ago
> Mocco, who has spent his career studying strokes and how to treat them, said he was “completely shocked” by the analysis. He noted the link between covid-19 and stroke “is one of the clearest and most profound correlations I’ve come across.”
- arpa 7y ago
  Okay, let's burn more karma. Maybe there is some hidden variable that makes these young people more susceptible to covid. Correlation without a model of action is, well, a correlation. Clots from damaged lungs maybe? But clotting without lung damage is unlikely. It's very weird.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

symplee 7y ago

Not a doctor, just a thought, could this in part be caused by some sort of Deep Vein Thrombosis or other clots due to people not physically moving as much during quarantine?

_bxg1 7y ago
The part about clots forming literally as the surgeon was operating seems much more exotic than something so simple as reduced activity.
- symplee 7y ago
  Did the earliest victims of Covid19 also show similar levels of clots? Or are we only seeing elevated levels recently? Could help to plot this over time as the lockdown extends. If there's a correlation, would help to stress the importance of staying active in quarantine, ex: lifting, stationary bike, jump rope.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    I think there's a bias in the data because a) lots of people die from the respiratory symptoms before they get a stroke, and b) young people who get a stroke might not know how to recognize it/what to do about it, so they may just stay at home and die there and never get recorded as a COVID death.
RealityVoid 7y ago
A friend from Germany told me that they are looking exactly in this and they found that dead COVID-19 patients had clots. He's a smart and well informed guy and it made sense at the time, but I did not find some primary sources to corroborate.
symplee 7y ago
And maybe also dietary changes due to lockdown: Higher sodium, more preservatives, less fruit and vegetables. Less trips to grocery store means buying more food that has a longer shelf-life than people would normally be eating.

cmarschner 7y ago

Can someone explain to me why the number of daily infections in California is still going up despite home orders. I just saw this and it baffled me (European here).

arpa 7y ago
Latent phase coming to its end, perhaps?

blendo 7y ago

"Doctors are often able to reopen blocked blood vessels through techniques such as pulling out clots or inserting stents. But it has to be done quickly, ideally within six hours, but no longer than 24 hours: “The message we are trying to get out is if you have symptoms of stroke, you need to call the ambulance urgently. ”" After a family member's stroke, we were told that 4 hours is the magic number. Per the Mayo Clinic: "Therapy with drugs that can break up a clot has to be given within 4.5 hours from when symptoms first started if given intravenously. The sooner these drugs are given, the better. Quick treatment not only improves your chances of survival but also may reduce complications." https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/stroke/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20350119 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/stroke/diagno...

_bxg1 7y ago
I wonder if anybody's considered packaging these drugs up for home use? A "stroke EpiPen", if you will.
- dahele 7y ago
  Interesting idea but unfortunately this isn’t feasible, unless you also have access to a full suite of diagnostic equipment at home. Even if someone at home could self-diagnose a stroke with any accuracy, around 10% of strokes are actually caused by haemorrhage (bleeding) rather than a clot. A CT scan is almost always carried out to rule this out, before administering thrombolytic drugs or aspirin, as these drugs can significantly worsen existing bleeding.

dogma1138 7y ago

This should be surprising to no one really flu and other respiratory illnesses have been known to increase stroke likelihood and severity considerably (upto 40% in the first 15 days), it also increases the likelihood of other cardiovascular conditions including cervical artery (CAD) and neck artery raptures.. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190130075757.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190130075757.h... https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/STROKEAHA.110.596783 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/STROKEAHA.110.59... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5899905/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5899905/