7 ms·

French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

39 points by Quanttek 6y ago

jefftk 6y ago
> the court of appeal extended the list of allowed items to include, among other things, high tech and IT goods. The court also significantly reduced the fines in case of non compliance from €1 million to €100,000 per unauthorized item "received, prepared and/or shipped." That still sounds high enough and vague enough that I expect Amazon will keep their French distribution centers closed for now.
- Quanttek 6y ago
  How are you able to derive from the article's summary that this is vague? Beyond that, we all know that "vagueness" was just an Amazon pretext to force France to allow them to operate unchecked, i.e. without providing the demanded protection and deliver any item.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - hedora 6y ago
    If I order a collectors item XBox controller, is that an IT or high tech item? (Maybe I’m using it for Skype with patients) What about a kid’s “computer” toy, or a fart noise button? What about a fidget spinner? A stress relief toy for autistic kids? A fidget spinner incorrectly marketed for autistic kids? They have 10’s of millions of items, and for each one where their answer is different than the court’s, they get fined $100,000 * number of times they ship it. Of course they can’t open the warehouse under these terms. Perhaps elected officials need to step in and pass a law that will invalidate this ruling.
    - Quanttek 6y ago
      You are completely ignoring my point: you can't go by a one-sentence summary in an article to infer that the Court's ruling on allowed items is vague. You'd actually need to look at the written deicision instead of spending your time pre-judging and coming up with a bunch of hypothetical examples. Additionally, most goods sold are already classified as a certain type of item for regulatory purposes in the EU, so that work has already been done.
    - Vinnl 6y ago
      The point of the GP was that the actual order might not actually be this vague, which another comment [1] appears to corroborate. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22978228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22978228
    - touktouk 6y ago
      The order specifically singles out Amazon categories for products. I am not a software engineer, but something along the line of: > if item.category is not in authorized_categories then do not sell Does not seem too hard to do.
- alibert 6y ago
  They extended the closure until Tuesday. But I believe the general public doesn't really notice it because orders are still being taken and delivered via, I suppose, distribution centers outside France. Friend ordered multiple things last Saturday (supposed to be closed) and he received some packages the next Thursday and today too (Saturday).
  - curiousgal 6y ago
    Yup, everything is normal, some prices are even cheaper than normal since they're being filled by centers in the Netherlands/UK. All of my orders arrived within 3 days even though the estimates were longer.
  - downerending 6y ago
    It seems rather odd that the order would not apply to things delivered from outside the country. Is this a general way to avoid regulations? (i.e., France only receives from Netherlands, and Netherlands only receives from France)
    - touktouk 6y ago
      How is that odd? The issue was the safety of its French employees, and therefore the order from the French court relates to the Amazon facilities in France.
      - downerending 6y ago
        It seems odd because of the moral hazard. Basically, the court is saying, "Treat your employees as you will, just make sure they're not French.". Is this really any less of a problem if French deliveries are packed by abused Belgian peons?
        touktouk 6y ago
        No, but unless the French decide that they can force others countries to follow their laws, the only choice is between [French protection laws applied in France; French protection laws not applied abroad] and [French protection laws not applied in France; French protection laws not applied abroad].
- cm2187 6y ago
  Also what is odd is that we seem to have gone from “social distancing and lockdown to slow down the progression of the disease to within the capacity of the healthcare system” (flattening the curve) to “this virus is the new ebola and anyone who doesn’t have extra protection is putting their life at risk”. While at the same time the additional testing and antibody testing are confirming that the virus is marginally more lethal than the common flu. Now I understand why medical staff would need extra protection as 1) we badly need them healthy now, and 2) they are facing heavy viral exposure which apparently really increases the risks. I can understand why clerks in grocery stores, bus drivers, anyone with frequent contacts with the general public would also want extra protection, as they may have much greater exposures than anyone else. But employees in a warehouse? Really?
  - jefftk 6y ago
    > additional testing and antibody testing are confirming that the virus is marginally more lethal than the common flu 15,411 people have died of covid in NYC, though excess death numbers suggest that this is an undercount and it's more like 19,200. [1] The population of NYC is 8.4M. If everyone in NYC had been exposed this would give a death rate of ~0.18%, or ~0.23% after adjusting for excess deaths. Antibody tests say ~21% [2] of the population has had it, so multiply by 5 and it looks like if everyone got it about 1% of people would die. That's about 10x more deadly than the flu. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronav... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-antibodies-test-ny.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-anti...
    - cm2187 6y ago
      If you cite numbers from Cuomo’s presentation why did you leave out his estimate of a mortality rate of circa 0.5% [1]? [edit] also these rates are heavily skewed against 70+ years old and people with existing conditions. The risk to a random warehouse worker is really immaterial. [1] https://youtu.be/TisDYYWJgBA?t=967 https://youtu.be/TisDYYWJgBA?t=967
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  The order from the court of appeal (linked in the article, although it's in French) is much more specific. It lists specific product categories on Amazon's website, and says that only things that were in those categories as of April 21 can be shipped.
  - jefftk 6y ago
    Thanks! That does sound much better!
- rat9988 6y ago
  The ruling has never been vague, except for the HN commenters who didn't read the ruling but a summary of it.
DelightOne 6y ago
How do other deliverers handle this?
- ldng 6y ago
  By following the official recommendations. Unions are making sure they do.
- diih0auV 6y ago
  Note that what courts are blaming Amazon for is not to deliver unnecessary goods, but to not care enough for the security of their employees in their warehouses. So basically, it's not a problem for other delivery services who took stricter safety measures. If anything, telling them they can still continue deliver necessary goods is a bit lax, because their employees are not safer processing those. The Amazon answer is quite unbearable, to be honest. Basically, it's "people can't live without us, so we should be above the law". It's time to show them we can live without them.
  - js4ever 6y ago
    Do you have any evidences about other delivery services taking stricter safety measures?
    - touktouk 6y ago
      Well Amazon has been sued by its workers' representatives, lost in the first trial and lost again in the appeal trial. It is of course possible that other delivery services have similar safety measures and have not been sued yet, or have more lenient workers, or whatever; but still, it offers _some_ evidence that Amazon might have worse practices than others.
    - diih0auV 6y ago
      This is the responsibility of the DIRECCTE, which handle inspections. They've been asked by the ministry of work to intensify their inspections during the covid-19 crisis, and they've notified 42 companies they should put themselves in conformity (this is the first step before any legal action to give companies an opportunity to avoid problems, which Amazon ignored). So all the other companies who did not got problems during their inspection had better safety measures than amazon. Source [fr] : http://idf.direccte.gouv.fr/Inspection-du-travail-elargissement-des-controles-sur-site-tout-en-priorisant http://idf.direccte.gouv.fr/Inspection-du-travail-elargissem... Translated: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fidf.direccte.gouv.fr%2FInspection-du-travail-elargissement-des-controles-sur-site-tout-en-priorisant https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%...
Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
Seems fair enough - the courts are saying that Amazon has to restrict deliveries (in France) to essential items such as food and medical supplies until a risk assessment has been done on they way the are running things at the moment. To me that doesn’t seem to me to be overly burdensome. Perhaps the stumbling block is finding someone willing to be the one signing off on it.
RandomInteger4 6y ago
This is asinine.
hedora 6y ago
Is equal protection under the law a thing in France? If so, they presumably need to apply the same standards to all warehouses and distributors, right?
- Y-bar 6y ago
  As mentioned elsewhere in this discussion: 42 companies have received injunctions.
user5994461 6y ago
The linked document from the court clarifies exactly which categories are opened for sale. It's a list of 7 exact Amazon categories. Like they appear in the search bar and the left sidebar that you use to filter items. There is really no doubt possible about what's allowed.
- techslave 6y ago
  sounds like there is still extreme room for question. like how 3p sellers are now putting electronics like flash drives into the kitchen item categories?
  - lsaferite 6y ago
    It was items in those categories as of a specific date.
- rasz 6y ago
  Amazon might be worried sellers will turn to usual tricks of reusing ASINs, somethingAmazon is really wink agains wink wink nudge https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/forums/t/to-many-sellers-using-old-listings-with-other-unrelated-product-reviews/190603 https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/forums/t/to-many-sel...

39 points by Quanttek 6y ago

> the court of appeal extended the list of allowed items to include, among other things, high tech and IT goods. The court also significantly reduced the fines in case of non compliance from €1 million to €100,000 per unauthorized item "received, prepared and/or shipped." That still sounds high enough and vague enough that I expect Amazon will keep their French distribution centers closed for now.

Quanttek 6y ago
How are you able to derive from the article's summary that this is vague? Beyond that, we all know that "vagueness" was just an Amazon pretext to force France to allow them to operate unchecked, i.e. without providing the demanded protection and deliver any item.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hedora 6y ago
  If I order a collectors item XBox controller, is that an IT or high tech item? (Maybe I’m using it for Skype with patients) What about a kid’s “computer” toy, or a fart noise button? What about a fidget spinner? A stress relief toy for autistic kids? A fidget spinner incorrectly marketed for autistic kids? They have 10’s of millions of items, and for each one where their answer is different than the court’s, they get fined $100,000 * number of times they ship it. Of course they can’t open the warehouse under these terms. Perhaps elected officials need to step in and pass a law that will invalidate this ruling.
  - Quanttek 6y ago
    You are completely ignoring my point: you can't go by a one-sentence summary in an article to infer that the Court's ruling on allowed items is vague. You'd actually need to look at the written deicision instead of spending your time pre-judging and coming up with a bunch of hypothetical examples. Additionally, most goods sold are already classified as a certain type of item for regulatory purposes in the EU, so that work has already been done.
  - Vinnl 6y ago
    The point of the GP was that the actual order might not actually be this vague, which another comment [1] appears to corroborate. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22978228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22978228
  - touktouk 6y ago
    The order specifically singles out Amazon categories for products. I am not a software engineer, but something along the line of: > if item.category is not in authorized_categories then do not sell Does not seem too hard to do.
alibert 6y ago
They extended the closure until Tuesday. But I believe the general public doesn't really notice it because orders are still being taken and delivered via, I suppose, distribution centers outside France. Friend ordered multiple things last Saturday (supposed to be closed) and he received some packages the next Thursday and today too (Saturday).
- curiousgal 6y ago
  Yup, everything is normal, some prices are even cheaper than normal since they're being filled by centers in the Netherlands/UK. All of my orders arrived within 3 days even though the estimates were longer.
- downerending 6y ago
  It seems rather odd that the order would not apply to things delivered from outside the country. Is this a general way to avoid regulations? (i.e., France only receives from Netherlands, and Netherlands only receives from France)
  - touktouk 6y ago
    How is that odd? The issue was the safety of its French employees, and therefore the order from the French court relates to the Amazon facilities in France.
    - downerending 6y ago
      It seems odd because of the moral hazard. Basically, the court is saying, "Treat your employees as you will, just make sure they're not French.". Is this really any less of a problem if French deliveries are packed by abused Belgian peons?
      - touktouk 6y ago
        No, but unless the French decide that they can force others countries to follow their laws, the only choice is between [French protection laws applied in France; French protection laws not applied abroad] and [French protection laws not applied in France; French protection laws not applied abroad].
cm2187 6y ago
Also what is odd is that we seem to have gone from “social distancing and lockdown to slow down the progression of the disease to within the capacity of the healthcare system” (flattening the curve) to “this virus is the new ebola and anyone who doesn’t have extra protection is putting their life at risk”. While at the same time the additional testing and antibody testing are confirming that the virus is marginally more lethal than the common flu. Now I understand why medical staff would need extra protection as 1) we badly need them healthy now, and 2) they are facing heavy viral exposure which apparently really increases the risks. I can understand why clerks in grocery stores, bus drivers, anyone with frequent contacts with the general public would also want extra protection, as they may have much greater exposures than anyone else. But employees in a warehouse? Really?
- jefftk 6y ago
  > additional testing and antibody testing are confirming that the virus is marginally more lethal than the common flu 15,411 people have died of covid in NYC, though excess death numbers suggest that this is an undercount and it's more like 19,200. [1] The population of NYC is 8.4M. If everyone in NYC had been exposed this would give a death rate of ~0.18%, or ~0.23% after adjusting for excess deaths. Antibody tests say ~21% [2] of the population has had it, so multiply by 5 and it looks like if everyone got it about 1% of people would die. That's about 10x more deadly than the flu. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronav... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-antibodies-test-ny.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-anti...
  - cm2187 6y ago
    If you cite numbers from Cuomo’s presentation why did you leave out his estimate of a mortality rate of circa 0.5% [1]? [edit] also these rates are heavily skewed against 70+ years old and people with existing conditions. The risk to a random warehouse worker is really immaterial. [1] https://youtu.be/TisDYYWJgBA?t=967 https://youtu.be/TisDYYWJgBA?t=967
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
The order from the court of appeal (linked in the article, although it's in French) is much more specific. It lists specific product categories on Amazon's website, and says that only things that were in those categories as of April 21 can be shipped.
- jefftk 6y ago
  Thanks! That does sound much better!
rat9988 6y ago
The ruling has never been vague, except for the HN commenters who didn't read the ruling but a summary of it.

DelightOne 6y ago

How do other deliverers handle this?

ldng 6y ago
By following the official recommendations. Unions are making sure they do.
diih0auV 6y ago
Note that what courts are blaming Amazon for is not to deliver unnecessary goods, but to not care enough for the security of their employees in their warehouses. So basically, it's not a problem for other delivery services who took stricter safety measures. If anything, telling them they can still continue deliver necessary goods is a bit lax, because their employees are not safer processing those. The Amazon answer is quite unbearable, to be honest. Basically, it's "people can't live without us, so we should be above the law". It's time to show them we can live without them.
- js4ever 6y ago
  Do you have any evidences about other delivery services taking stricter safety measures?
  - touktouk 6y ago
    Well Amazon has been sued by its workers' representatives, lost in the first trial and lost again in the appeal trial. It is of course possible that other delivery services have similar safety measures and have not been sued yet, or have more lenient workers, or whatever; but still, it offers _some_ evidence that Amazon might have worse practices than others.
  - diih0auV 6y ago
    This is the responsibility of the DIRECCTE, which handle inspections. They've been asked by the ministry of work to intensify their inspections during the covid-19 crisis, and they've notified 42 companies they should put themselves in conformity (this is the first step before any legal action to give companies an opportunity to avoid problems, which Amazon ignored). So all the other companies who did not got problems during their inspection had better safety measures than amazon. Source [fr] : http://idf.direccte.gouv.fr/Inspection-du-travail-elargissement-des-controles-sur-site-tout-en-priorisant http://idf.direccte.gouv.fr/Inspection-du-travail-elargissem... Translated: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fidf.direccte.gouv.fr%2FInspection-du-travail-elargissement-des-controles-sur-site-tout-en-priorisant https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%...

Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago

Seems fair enough - the courts are saying that Amazon has to restrict deliveries (in France) to essential items such as food and medical supplies until a risk assessment has been done on they way the are running things at the moment. To me that doesn’t seem to me to be overly burdensome. Perhaps the stumbling block is finding someone willing to be the one signing off on it.

RandomInteger4 6y ago

This is asinine.

hedora 6y ago

Is equal protection under the law a thing in France? If so, they presumably need to apply the same standards to all warehouses and distributors, right?

Y-bar 6y ago
As mentioned elsewhere in this discussion: 42 companies have received injunctions.

user5994461 6y ago

The linked document from the court clarifies exactly which categories are opened for sale. It's a list of 7 exact Amazon categories. Like they appear in the search bar and the left sidebar that you use to filter items. There is really no doubt possible about what's allowed.

techslave 6y ago
sounds like there is still extreme room for question. like how 3p sellers are now putting electronics like flash drives into the kitchen item categories?
- lsaferite 6y ago
  It was items in those categories as of a specific date.
rasz 6y ago
Amazon might be worried sellers will turn to usual tricks of reusing ASINs, somethingAmazon is really wink agains wink wink nudge https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/forums/t/to-many-sellers-using-old-listings-with-other-unrelated-product-reviews/190603 https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/forums/t/to-many-sel...