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> I'm talking about if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things th

> I'm talking about if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things that matter (education, employment, spouse) than the black man, on the basis of their race. This just tells me that you have zero conception of what life is like for lower class black Americans. Your assumption is that everyone starts at the same starting place, and that these things (education, employment, etc.) are just things one intuitively knows about and can easily gain access to, if you just work hard enough. The reality is that for many lower class Americans, there is no cultural capital or mechanism for even beginning to understand the process of academic achievement, applying to colleges, getting a professional job, and so on. There are no role models, no family members to offer support, no community that values such things. These cultural patterns, behaviors and built-up knowledge do not exist. To analyze discrimination on isolated individuals is to entirely miss the point that centuries of slavery and discrimination have destroyed much of this cultural capital, and simply removing the most egregious discriminatory behaviors isn't going to suddenly straighten all that was crooked, especially not in less than a century. And that's assuming that there is no active current discrimination, which is again, blatantly false.

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
Do you think that what you're describing is less true for lower-class Asians? (Asians are well-off in terms of national statistics, but that glosses over a ton of variance; in NYC for example Asians have the highest poverty rate of any race.)
- ceilingcorner 7y ago
  I'm not quite sure I understand your question, but: certainly lower-class Asians have their own issues, but I still don't see anyone can honestly, truly state that anything compares to being enslaved as property for hundreds of years.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    You mentioned that many lower class black Americans have no cultural capital regarding the "process of academic achievement, applying to colleges, getting a professional job". I agree that's true, and that a legacy of slavery is an important cause of the problem. Do you think that the children of uneducated nail salon workers who don't speak English have this cultural capital?
    - ceilingcorner 7y ago
      > Do you think that the children of uneducated nail salon workers who don't speak English have this cultural capital? No, probably not, but I think it's fair to say that 1) the broad societal stereotypes applied to them are perhaps less damaging than those applied to black Americans and 2) the children of the Asian nail salon workers will be more likely to socially engage with the children of Asian-Americans that do have this cultural capital (and thus be more exposed to it) than the lower class black American children will be to the equivalent (if only because the equivalent is much less common.) Again, these are all issues which need to be addressed and no discrimination is okay. But the initial claim was specifically placing them into a certain hierarchy, which I am reacting against.
ralusek 7y ago
Are we now making the argument that different cultures and histories are capable of producing unequal outcomes? Because if that's what we're talking about, then I don't have any disagreement. Nigerian and West Indian immigrants, for example, are among the most successful immigrant groups in the country, and among the most well-educated. Their blackness is not an obstacle in securing positions at universities or employment, because blackness is not the obstacle. In almost every university or large employment opportunity, their blackness works actively in their favor. Compare this with Asian immigrants, and you are now getting to the sort of comparison that I'm making.
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  It's really astonishing how far you went out of your way to clarify the narrow comparison you're making, and how many words were written in response to claims you didn't make. Or, it would be astonishing if it wasn't typical of the lack of rigor or critical thinking ability that tends to dominate one side of such conversations...
  - wutlol 7y ago
    Reminds me of 4chans subtly racist edgy posts. reddit posts reveal a lot about him, in an attempt to abide by the HN keep it civil guidelines I’ll let you come to the conclusion yourself. Some notable ones Oh look 4chan https://www.reddit.com/r/classic4chan/comments/1h6a2m/comment/cb0wprm https://www.reddit.com/r/classic4chan/comments/1h6a2m/commen... Let’s see what else https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1fbrlv/eli5_why_is_blackface_offensive/ https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1fbrlv/e... Hmm? Can we really expect someone who doesn’t understand why blackface is offensive to understand what it’s like to be black in America ? What else https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/fceoxl/the_meme_phrases_its_okay_to_be_white_and_islam/ https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/fceoxl/th... Hmm, edgy meme lord? Or racist/sexist ? Look Ralusek man, we can see past the bullshit. You’re not fooling anyone by trying to pass your racism against blacks and Hispanics while trying to cover it by saying you care about the struggles Asians minorities, you know the “model” minorities. Edit:Hmm, those are some fast negative karma, how many accounts are you running on here Ralusek? Honestly I’d really like mods to look into this, this seems like brigading, there’s are a clear agenda here and fast reaction to any posts trying to refute his claims
tdfx 7y ago
I think you really need to re-read his points because you seem to be arguing against things he never said.
- ceilingcorner 7y ago
  I am making a meta-point, which is that to isolate discrimination to an individual's supposed opportunities at education or professional success is to entirely miss the point. To say that "if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things that matter" is built on the massive assumption that these things are equally accessible and that the groups are equally culturally prepared for them. Opportunities in life are not items in a grocery store, easily accessible to any person walking in off the street.
  - tdfx 7y ago
    > To say that "if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things that matter" is built on the massive assumption that these things are equally accessible The premise of his thought experiment is that things are not equally accessible so we must set all things equal except race in order to measure its effect in isolation.

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

Do you think that what you're describing is less true for lower-class Asians? (Asians are well-off in terms of national statistics, but that glosses over a ton of variance; in NYC for example Asians have the highest poverty rate of any race.)

ceilingcorner 7y ago
I'm not quite sure I understand your question, but: certainly lower-class Asians have their own issues, but I still don't see anyone can honestly, truly state that anything compares to being enslaved as property for hundreds of years.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  You mentioned that many lower class black Americans have no cultural capital regarding the "process of academic achievement, applying to colleges, getting a professional job". I agree that's true, and that a legacy of slavery is an important cause of the problem. Do you think that the children of uneducated nail salon workers who don't speak English have this cultural capital?
  - ceilingcorner 7y ago
    > Do you think that the children of uneducated nail salon workers who don't speak English have this cultural capital? No, probably not, but I think it's fair to say that 1) the broad societal stereotypes applied to them are perhaps less damaging than those applied to black Americans and 2) the children of the Asian nail salon workers will be more likely to socially engage with the children of Asian-Americans that do have this cultural capital (and thus be more exposed to it) than the lower class black American children will be to the equivalent (if only because the equivalent is much less common.) Again, these are all issues which need to be addressed and no discrimination is okay. But the initial claim was specifically placing them into a certain hierarchy, which I am reacting against.

ralusek 7y ago

Are we now making the argument that different cultures and histories are capable of producing unequal outcomes? Because if that's what we're talking about, then I don't have any disagreement. Nigerian and West Indian immigrants, for example, are among the most successful immigrant groups in the country, and among the most well-educated. Their blackness is not an obstacle in securing positions at universities or employment, because blackness is not the obstacle. In almost every university or large employment opportunity, their blackness works actively in their favor. Compare this with Asian immigrants, and you are now getting to the sort of comparison that I'm making.

wutbrodo 7y ago
It's really astonishing how far you went out of your way to clarify the narrow comparison you're making, and how many words were written in response to claims you didn't make. Or, it would be astonishing if it wasn't typical of the lack of rigor or critical thinking ability that tends to dominate one side of such conversations...
- wutlol 7y ago
  Reminds me of 4chans subtly racist edgy posts. reddit posts reveal a lot about him, in an attempt to abide by the HN keep it civil guidelines I’ll let you come to the conclusion yourself. Some notable ones Oh look 4chan https://www.reddit.com/r/classic4chan/comments/1h6a2m/comment/cb0wprm https://www.reddit.com/r/classic4chan/comments/1h6a2m/commen... Let’s see what else https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1fbrlv/eli5_why_is_blackface_offensive/ https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1fbrlv/e... Hmm? Can we really expect someone who doesn’t understand why blackface is offensive to understand what it’s like to be black in America ? What else https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/fceoxl/the_meme_phrases_its_okay_to_be_white_and_islam/ https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/fceoxl/th... Hmm, edgy meme lord? Or racist/sexist ? Look Ralusek man, we can see past the bullshit. You’re not fooling anyone by trying to pass your racism against blacks and Hispanics while trying to cover it by saying you care about the struggles Asians minorities, you know the “model” minorities. Edit:Hmm, those are some fast negative karma, how many accounts are you running on here Ralusek? Honestly I’d really like mods to look into this, this seems like brigading, there’s are a clear agenda here and fast reaction to any posts trying to refute his claims

tdfx 7y ago

I think you really need to re-read his points because you seem to be arguing against things he never said.

ceilingcorner 7y ago
I am making a meta-point, which is that to isolate discrimination to an individual's supposed opportunities at education or professional success is to entirely miss the point. To say that "if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things that matter" is built on the massive assumption that these things are equally accessible and that the groups are equally culturally prepared for them. Opportunities in life are not items in a grocery store, easily accessible to any person walking in off the street.
- tdfx 7y ago
  > To say that "if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things that matter" is built on the massive assumption that these things are equally accessible The premise of his thought experiment is that things are not equally accessible so we must set all things equal except race in order to measure its effect in isolation.