5 ms·

> Asians, particularly Asian men, have the most active obstacles that manifest on _basis of their race_ than any other minority group in the US Sorry, but this

> Asians, particularly Asian men, have the most active obstacles that manifest on _basis of their race_ than any other minority group in the US Sorry, but this is patently absurd. African-Americans have faced (and continue to face) an order of magnitude more difficulty and lack of opportunity than Asian-Americans. The statistics of a dating app or the number of Oscar winners are in no way comparable to centuries of slavery and legal discrimination.

throwlaplace 7y ago
how is that these comments are being downvoted when they're beyond a shadow a doubt verifiable certainties. how can you possibly disagree with reams and reams of data on this.
hhsuey 7y ago
I think Asians pay a high price in terms of handicaps in legislation in the modern day to account for those historical injustices perpetrated onto other minorities by the historic majority.
ralusek 7y ago
"Centuries of slavery and legal discrimination" is not "active discrimination on the basis of your race." It was at the time, of course. It has contributed to the circumstances of populations at large, but that is not at all what I'm talking about. I'm talking about if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things that matter (education, employment, spouse) than the black man, on the basis of their race.
- ceilingcorner 7y ago
  > I'm talking about if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things that matter (education, employment, spouse) than the black man, on the basis of their race. This just tells me that you have zero conception of what life is like for lower class black Americans. Your assumption is that everyone starts at the same starting place, and that these things (education, employment, etc.) are just things one intuitively knows about and can easily gain access to, if you just work hard enough. The reality is that for many lower class Americans, there is no cultural capital or mechanism for even beginning to understand the process of academic achievement, applying to colleges, getting a professional job, and so on. There are no role models, no family members to offer support, no community that values such things. These cultural patterns, behaviors and built-up knowledge do not exist. To analyze discrimination on isolated individuals is to entirely miss the point that centuries of slavery and discrimination have destroyed much of this cultural capital, and simply removing the most egregious discriminatory behaviors isn't going to suddenly straighten all that was crooked, especially not in less than a century. And that's assuming that there is no active current discrimination, which is again, blatantly false.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    Do you think that what you're describing is less true for lower-class Asians? (Asians are well-off in terms of national statistics, but that glosses over a ton of variance; in NYC for example Asians have the highest poverty rate of any race.)
    - ceilingcorner 7y ago
      I'm not quite sure I understand your question, but: certainly lower-class Asians have their own issues, but I still don't see anyone can honestly, truly state that anything compares to being enslaved as property for hundreds of years.
      - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
        You mentioned that many lower class black Americans have no cultural capital regarding the "process of academic achievement, applying to colleges, getting a professional job". I agree that's true, and that a legacy of slavery is an important cause of the problem. Do you think that the children of uneducated nail salon workers who don't speak English have this cultural capital?
        ceilingcorner 7y ago
        > Do you think that the children of uneducated nail salon workers who don't speak English have this cultural capital? No, probably not, but I think it's fair to say that 1) the broad societal stereotypes applied to them are perhaps less damaging than those applied to black Americans and 2) the children of the Asian nail salon workers will be more likely to socially engage with the children of Asian-Americans that do have this cultural capital (and thus be more exposed to it) than the lower class black American children will be to the equivalent (if only because the equivalent is much less common.) Again, these are all issues which need to be addressed and no discrimination is okay. But the initial claim was specifically placing them into a certain hierarchy, which I am reacting against.
  - ralusek 7y ago
- wutlol 7y ago
  You don’t really believe being Asian is a disadvantage when it comes to gaining employment? You even said earlier that sure some people might be racist towards blacks, but you know diversity hires, as if it was that simple and that’s the only reason they are hired. I’d argue Asians get the benefit of the doubt. There’s still the “Asians good at math very hard workers” stereotype that while can be considered racist, works in their favor when being hired. https://slate.com/technology/2014/01/programmer-privilege-as-an-asian-male-computer-science-major-everyone-gave-me-the-benefit-of-the-doubt.html https://slate.com/technology/2014/01/programmer-privilege-as... Honestly man, your arguments sound quasi Ben Shapiro and borderline 4chan edgy trying to be subtly racist against blacks and Hispanics. I hope I’m not the only one that can see past this, your talking points and arguments I’ve seen in 4chan in an attempt to undermine other minorities struggles and sow discord between Asians and other minorities. Somehow people completely underestimate the prejudice and racism Hispanics and blacks face before after and during college. They may catch a break when it comes to acceptance into universities but it seems like that’s one too many breaks to get for people like you. It’s not like blacks or Hispanics who attended a prestigious university look different to police officers https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/06/nyregion/nyc-police-subway-racial-profiling.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/06/nyregion/nyc-police-subwa...
- ikeyany 7y ago
  > I'm talking about if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race That premise doesn't make sense when speaking about human beings existing in reality. Race doesn't exist in a vacuum—it comes inherently with decades of cultural and historical context.
  - jeffdavis 7y ago
    No, what you're saying doesn't make sense, because the "black" race doesn't have a uniform culture or history. You can point to problems in black America, and those problems might be inextricably tied to culture and history. But blacks also live in Africa, and some have a very different culture and history than black America. And some of those Africans immigrate to America, which then means there are blacks here without the cultural and historical context. Nigerian-Americans, for instance, are the highest-educated in the U.S. ( https://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php https://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-m... ), surpassing Whites and Asians.
    - ikeyany 7y ago
      Nigerians still have to deal with the effects of legal racial discrimination (segregation was legal only 60 years ago), such as getting racially profiled every time they walk into a store or walk too closely to a white woman on a street.
      - jeffdavis 6y ago
        I didn't say race doesn't matter. I said that race is seperable from cultural and historical context. Recent immigration provides a window into that. Those problems that are more closely bound with culture and history won't be solved by focusing on discrimination/bias/prejudice/profiling (and other racial issues).
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
tathougies 7y ago
Asians were enslaved to build the West though. That is just true. While 'paid', they were not entitled to full legal rights and were held in conditions akin to slavery. We talk about reparations for african americans despite not being able to properly track who is an ancestor of whom. On the other hand, we know full well which Japanese were held in concentration camps by America, and some are even alive today, and they receive nowhere near a proper compensation.
- ceilingcorner 7y ago
  I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person would think that the poor treatment of Chinese laborers (which was exceptionally discriminatory) or the confiscation of Japanese property (a crime, no doubt) compares to being kidnapped, transported across the ocean, and enslaved as property for hundreds of years.
  - ckcheng 7y ago
    I don't want to argue. I read what you wrote and genuinely wondered about the working conditions of Chinese laborers in the distant past in the USA. > 8,000 Chinese focused on building the tunnels while another 3,000 laid track ... The Chinese had seen a pay increase from $31 to $35 per month by Spring 1867, but it fell short of the $40 monthly salaries whites were pulling in ... They were also toiling longer hours, often under dangerous conditions, whipped or restrained if they left to seek employment elsewhere. And unlike whites, the Chinese had to foot the bill for their lodging, food, and tools > When the strike went down ... "They went to their camp and they sat" ... Crocker, meanwhile, took the step of cutting off all food and supplies to the Chinese laborers, hoping that starvation would force them back to work. > It did. ( https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/150-years-ago-chinese-railroad-workers-staged-era-s-largest-n774901 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/150-years-ago-chi... ) I'm not making a comparison between groups. I just think being whipped, restrained, and starved would probably rise above "poor treatment ... which was exceptionally discriminatory" as a description for any reasonable person. > Denis Kearney, an Irish immigrant ... Responding to high unemployment and a nationwide railroad strike, Kearney in 1877 founded the Workingmen’s Party of California ... the party’s anti-Chinese views were rooted in racism and revulsion at the newcomers’ unfamiliar customs. > "A bloated aristocracy has sent to China ... for a cheap working slave," Kearney proclaimed in 1878. "It rakes the slums of Asia to find the meanest slave on earth - the Chinese coolie - and imports him here to meet the free American in the labor market > "These cheap slaves fill every place. Their dress is scant and cheap. Their food is rice from China. They hedge twenty in a room, ten by ten. They are whipped curs, abject in docility, mean, contemptible and obedient in all things." > The Workingmen’s Party quickly became a force in California and national politics, exerting pressure on Congress and President Chester A. Arthur to act. > In early 1882, Congress overwhelmingly approved the Chinese Exclusion Act ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/03/cheap-slaves-trump-immigration-and-the-ugly-history-of-the-chinese-exclusion-act/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/03... ) Apparently some people at that time thought of the Chinese laborers as "cheap working slave", "the meanest slave on earth", who lived "twenty in a room", "are whipped", etc. This is just historical context. I know other groups had it terribly as well... I'm not making comparisons.

throwlaplace 7y ago

how is that these comments are being downvoted when they're beyond a shadow a doubt verifiable certainties. how can you possibly disagree with reams and reams of data on this.

hhsuey 7y ago

I think Asians pay a high price in terms of handicaps in legislation in the modern day to account for those historical injustices perpetrated onto other minorities by the historic majority.

ralusek 7y ago

"Centuries of slavery and legal discrimination" is not "active discrimination on the basis of your race." It was at the time, of course. It has contributed to the circumstances of populations at large, but that is not at all what I'm talking about. I'm talking about if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things that matter (education, employment, spouse) than the black man, on the basis of their race.

ceilingcorner 7y ago
> I'm talking about if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race, the Asian man will be more disadvantaged in pursuing things that matter (education, employment, spouse) than the black man, on the basis of their race. This just tells me that you have zero conception of what life is like for lower class black Americans. Your assumption is that everyone starts at the same starting place, and that these things (education, employment, etc.) are just things one intuitively knows about and can easily gain access to, if you just work hard enough. The reality is that for many lower class Americans, there is no cultural capital or mechanism for even beginning to understand the process of academic achievement, applying to colleges, getting a professional job, and so on. There are no role models, no family members to offer support, no community that values such things. These cultural patterns, behaviors and built-up knowledge do not exist. To analyze discrimination on isolated individuals is to entirely miss the point that centuries of slavery and discrimination have destroyed much of this cultural capital, and simply removing the most egregious discriminatory behaviors isn't going to suddenly straighten all that was crooked, especially not in less than a century. And that's assuming that there is no active current discrimination, which is again, blatantly false.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  Do you think that what you're describing is less true for lower-class Asians? (Asians are well-off in terms of national statistics, but that glosses over a ton of variance; in NYC for example Asians have the highest poverty rate of any race.)
  - ceilingcorner 7y ago
    I'm not quite sure I understand your question, but: certainly lower-class Asians have their own issues, but I still don't see anyone can honestly, truly state that anything compares to being enslaved as property for hundreds of years.
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      You mentioned that many lower class black Americans have no cultural capital regarding the "process of academic achievement, applying to colleges, getting a professional job". I agree that's true, and that a legacy of slavery is an important cause of the problem. Do you think that the children of uneducated nail salon workers who don't speak English have this cultural capital?
      - ceilingcorner 7y ago
        > Do you think that the children of uneducated nail salon workers who don't speak English have this cultural capital? No, probably not, but I think it's fair to say that 1) the broad societal stereotypes applied to them are perhaps less damaging than those applied to black Americans and 2) the children of the Asian nail salon workers will be more likely to socially engage with the children of Asian-Americans that do have this cultural capital (and thus be more exposed to it) than the lower class black American children will be to the equivalent (if only because the equivalent is much less common.) Again, these are all issues which need to be addressed and no discrimination is okay. But the initial claim was specifically placing them into a certain hierarchy, which I am reacting against.
- ralusek 7y ago
wutlol 7y ago
You don’t really believe being Asian is a disadvantage when it comes to gaining employment? You even said earlier that sure some people might be racist towards blacks, but you know diversity hires, as if it was that simple and that’s the only reason they are hired. I’d argue Asians get the benefit of the doubt. There’s still the “Asians good at math very hard workers” stereotype that while can be considered racist, works in their favor when being hired. https://slate.com/technology/2014/01/programmer-privilege-as-an-asian-male-computer-science-major-everyone-gave-me-the-benefit-of-the-doubt.html https://slate.com/technology/2014/01/programmer-privilege-as... Honestly man, your arguments sound quasi Ben Shapiro and borderline 4chan edgy trying to be subtly racist against blacks and Hispanics. I hope I’m not the only one that can see past this, your talking points and arguments I’ve seen in 4chan in an attempt to undermine other minorities struggles and sow discord between Asians and other minorities. Somehow people completely underestimate the prejudice and racism Hispanics and blacks face before after and during college. They may catch a break when it comes to acceptance into universities but it seems like that’s one too many breaks to get for people like you. It’s not like blacks or Hispanics who attended a prestigious university look different to police officers https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/06/nyregion/nyc-police-subway-racial-profiling.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/06/nyregion/nyc-police-subwa...
ikeyany 7y ago
> I'm talking about if you take a black man and an Asian man and control for everything but race That premise doesn't make sense when speaking about human beings existing in reality. Race doesn't exist in a vacuum—it comes inherently with decades of cultural and historical context.
- jeffdavis 7y ago
  No, what you're saying doesn't make sense, because the "black" race doesn't have a uniform culture or history. You can point to problems in black America, and those problems might be inextricably tied to culture and history. But blacks also live in Africa, and some have a very different culture and history than black America. And some of those Africans immigrate to America, which then means there are blacks here without the cultural and historical context. Nigerian-Americans, for instance, are the highest-educated in the U.S. ( https://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php https://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-m... ), surpassing Whites and Asians.
  - ikeyany 7y ago
    Nigerians still have to deal with the effects of legal racial discrimination (segregation was legal only 60 years ago), such as getting racially profiled every time they walk into a store or walk too closely to a white woman on a street.
    - jeffdavis 6y ago
      I didn't say race doesn't matter. I said that race is seperable from cultural and historical context. Recent immigration provides a window into that. Those problems that are more closely bound with culture and history won't be solved by focusing on discrimination/bias/prejudice/profiling (and other racial issues).
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]

tathougies 7y ago

Asians were enslaved to build the West though. That is just true. While 'paid', they were not entitled to full legal rights and were held in conditions akin to slavery. We talk about reparations for african americans despite not being able to properly track who is an ancestor of whom. On the other hand, we know full well which Japanese were held in concentration camps by America, and some are even alive today, and they receive nowhere near a proper compensation.

ceilingcorner 7y ago
I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person would think that the poor treatment of Chinese laborers (which was exceptionally discriminatory) or the confiscation of Japanese property (a crime, no doubt) compares to being kidnapped, transported across the ocean, and enslaved as property for hundreds of years.
- ckcheng 7y ago
  I don't want to argue. I read what you wrote and genuinely wondered about the working conditions of Chinese laborers in the distant past in the USA. > 8,000 Chinese focused on building the tunnels while another 3,000 laid track ... The Chinese had seen a pay increase from $31 to $35 per month by Spring 1867, but it fell short of the $40 monthly salaries whites were pulling in ... They were also toiling longer hours, often under dangerous conditions, whipped or restrained if they left to seek employment elsewhere. And unlike whites, the Chinese had to foot the bill for their lodging, food, and tools > When the strike went down ... "They went to their camp and they sat" ... Crocker, meanwhile, took the step of cutting off all food and supplies to the Chinese laborers, hoping that starvation would force them back to work. > It did. ( https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/150-years-ago-chinese-railroad-workers-staged-era-s-largest-n774901 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/150-years-ago-chi... ) I'm not making a comparison between groups. I just think being whipped, restrained, and starved would probably rise above "poor treatment ... which was exceptionally discriminatory" as a description for any reasonable person. > Denis Kearney, an Irish immigrant ... Responding to high unemployment and a nationwide railroad strike, Kearney in 1877 founded the Workingmen’s Party of California ... the party’s anti-Chinese views were rooted in racism and revulsion at the newcomers’ unfamiliar customs. > "A bloated aristocracy has sent to China ... for a cheap working slave," Kearney proclaimed in 1878. "It rakes the slums of Asia to find the meanest slave on earth - the Chinese coolie - and imports him here to meet the free American in the labor market > "These cheap slaves fill every place. Their dress is scant and cheap. Their food is rice from China. They hedge twenty in a room, ten by ten. They are whipped curs, abject in docility, mean, contemptible and obedient in all things." > The Workingmen’s Party quickly became a force in California and national politics, exerting pressure on Congress and President Chester A. Arthur to act. > In early 1882, Congress overwhelmingly approved the Chinese Exclusion Act ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/03/cheap-slaves-trump-immigration-and-the-ugly-history-of-the-chinese-exclusion-act/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/03... ) Apparently some people at that time thought of the Chinese laborers as "cheap working slave", "the meanest slave on earth", who lived "twenty in a room", "are whipped", etc. This is just historical context. I know other groups had it terribly as well... I'm not making comparisons.