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What's a few avoidable deaths between friends, after all? There are multiple active outbreaks in crowded factories and other facilities, just like an Amazon fu

What's a few avoidable deaths between friends, after all? There are multiple active outbreaks in crowded factories and other facilities, just like an Amazon fulfillment warehouse. They do not have necessary safety equipment and procedures in place yet. Forcing people to show up to work under these conditions is murder. They could fix it, though. A starting point would be Amazon providing tests and ensuring that everyone has been tested before returning to work, along with ensuring everyone has masks and gloves and enough time to thoroughly wash their hands throughout their shift. Press reports up until this point and complaints from employees suggest none of that is consistently the case.

newacct583 7y ago
> What's a few avoidable deaths between friends, after all? Amazon is about as close to the ideal of an "essential employer" as anyone is, though. They're shipping a huge amount of food and other essentials. Objectively, a package delivered through a managed professional environment is less risky and involves fewer potential transmission events than one purchased at retail. Online sellers, where they have product to deliver, are the ones we want to prioritize keeping open. Now... there's lots to complain about with Amazon's response in other ways. It's very reasonable to argue that their workers need more PPE, employer-provided testing and notification, hazard pay, better safety practices, etc... But if you want to argue that Amazon should shut down... who do you want to be open instead?
- jcims 7y ago
  I'm glad I waited an extra minute to comment b/c you did all the work. Amazon has allowed me to limit my local travels to two physical environments for essentially the past six weeks. There's a value to that in reducing transmission.
  - aaomidi 7y ago
    By requiring others to do that for you and paying them pennies for what value they're providing. I'd agree with you if the company decided to not take profit during this time and paid the employees the same amount of value they produce.
    - bhupy 7y ago
      > By requiring others to do that for you and paying them pennies for what value they're providing. The median wage of an Amazon Warehouse worker is about $60,000 / year, which is above the median wage in the US[1]. The 25th-percentile wage for the same worker is $53,000 — still higher than the median wage, and this is an entry level position that requires no college eduction. Amazon also provides 401(k) matching for their warehouse workers and provides them the same group health insurance as their software engineers and executives[2][3]. It is quite possibly the most generous set of benefits currently available to an entry-level low-skill worker with no college education. > I'd agree with you if the company decided to not take profit during this time and paid the employees the same amount of value they produce. Couple things: 1) I think you're overestimating how much profit Amazon makes on its retail business; the margins are razor thin. 2) profit is just the cost of labor for the managers, I.e. the people that are coordinating the labor and calling the high-level shots. This includes coming up with the policies and systems to ensure the company can continue to operate in the midst of a global pandemic. Finally, Amazon employed 798,000 people as of 2019, and added 100,000 new jobs in the last month alone, with 50,000 current openings outstanding. A lot of the margin goes into literally providing all of these wages and benefits for nearly 1 million people. This is more than many industrialized nations. [1] https://www.paysa.com/salaries/amazon--warehouse-worker https://www.paysa.com/salaries/amazon--warehouse-worker [2] https://www.aboutamazon.com/amazon-fulfillment/working-here/compensation-and-benefits https://www.aboutamazon.com/amazon-fulfillment/working-here/... [3] https://www.glassdoor.com/Benefits/Amazon-US-Benefits-EI_IE6036.0,6_IL.7,9_IN1.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Benefits/Amazon-US-Benefits-EI_IE6...
      - whywhywhynot 7y ago
        The first number is so laughably far away from reality. Do you have any idea how many hours a week you would have to work to make $60k at $15/hr? Does the average warehouse worker make double the starting rate or work 70 hour weeks? As someone who works in the industry I do agree however that they do an okay job taking care of their people compared to others. But nobody is going to write an article about how shit it is to work at a warehouse owned by a company no one has ever heard of. Amazon has actually done a lot for people at those places too though, if there is an amazon warehouse nearby starting at $15 an hour nobody is going to come work for you for barely above minimum wage anymore, it has definitely put some out competitive wage pressure.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  Like I said, they can fix the problem. It sounds like they're trying, but it's not proven that they've gotten all the way. In the past they were clearly inadequate and it's why employees went on strike and publicly protested. "Essential employees" shouldn't be put at risk just because people need them to ship stuff out. We shouldn't put "essential employees"' immune-compromised relatives at risk either.
  - newacct583 7y ago
    > "Essential employees" shouldn't be put at risk just because people need them to ship stuff out. But... isn't that what "essential" means? No one claims this is fair. It's not fair that as software developers we get an automatic pass to continue our careers working from home while our bartender friends have to file for unemployment either. But at the end of the day we need stuff to live. Someone needs to run the power and intenet and water infrastructure. And someone needs to deliver goods to people who need them. I mean: I agree we need to make this better for those folks. I just don't see how Amazon demanding essential workers come to work is the wrong thing here.
mardifoufs 7y ago
They are not forcing them since they are allowed to take time off. You can't self quarantine forever anyways, standard procedure is 14 days of quarantine if you think you may have been exposed to the virus or if you have any symptoms.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  Unpaid time off. How are people supposed to eat and pay rent if their only available leave is unpaid? How will they afford their hospital bills after being exposed?
  - sida 7y ago
    Same as the 20+ million Americans who are laid off and seeking unemployment?
    - kevingadd 7y ago
      I'm not sure why that makes it okay to add to that population? Amazon has the resources to temporarily cover paid leave until they can guarantee safe conditions in their warehouses for employees. Regions that have prematurely relaxed their virus controls have seen new outbreaks, the same could happen in warehouses. It's in everyone's best interest for Amazon to offer paid leave until their workplaces have been proven to be safe, which is going to take a bit even after all the appropriate measures are in place.
      - bhupy 7y ago
        The safety net is by far the better way to address this, it's a drop in the bucket relative to the total cost of the safety net. > It's in everyone's best interest for Amazon to offer paid leave until their workplaces have been proven to be safe, which is going to take a bit even after all the appropriate measures are in place. Amazon appears to think that your "until" condition is here now, per the safety measures they purport to be taking.
xchaotic 7y ago
Yeah, I don’t see how few extra bucks is worth literally risking life. Total numbers look big but really it’s $120 more per each shift where you can be exposed or expose others to a deadly virus.
- throwaway744678 7y ago
  Remember that you are risking your life every day getting out of your bed, even without this virus.
flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
>A starting point would be Amazon providing tests and ensuring that everyone has been tested before returning to work Amazon can't win. If they did that, the newspaper headlines would read "Bezos demands DNA samples of workers as a prerequisite to being paid."
- kevingadd 7y ago
  COVID tests aren't DNA tests. It's a swab of the back of your throat (through the nose, oof) to test for a specific virus. It's not hard to find the specific stuff used to perform the tests, it's out there on the internet, the CDC published it. Are we really descending into paranoia about Amazon trying to genetically profile employees?
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    There's a big population of people who just start from the premise that Amazon must be doing something wrong and search for facts to justify it. I lost my ability to assume good faith when people complained they should pay $15 an hour, they started paying $15 an hour, and then the controversy immediately restarted about how greedy they are to not pay more.
    - bhupy 7y ago
      Never mind the fact that Amazon does 401(k) matching and provides its warehouse workers the same group health insurance plan as their software engineers, which might possibly be the most generous health insurance plan for an entry-level position that requires no college degree.
    - jonknee 7y ago
      I'm pretty sure they could start paying a minimum wage of $30 an hour and people would be irate that they're making it impossible to hire anyone because Amazon is overpaying. When you're the biggest player there is nowhere to hide.
      - 7y ago
jonknee 7y ago
From their post on the topic it sounds like you should be happy with their plan: https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-prioritizes-health-and-safety-while-fulfilling-customer-orders https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-priorit... > Millions of masks have been distributed across our network. They are available to all Amazon associates, delivery service partners, Amazon Flex participants, seasonal employees, and Whole Foods Market stores employees. We are encouraging everyone to take and use them. As for testing, they have been unable to do it through regular channels so they are building a lab to do it themselves: > An important safety step might be regular testing of all employees for COVID-19, including those without symptoms. We have begun assembling equipment we need to build our first lab to process tests and hope to start testing small numbers of our frontline employees soon. As for cleanliness: > We have increased the frequency and intensity of cleaning at all sites, including regular sanitization of door handles, handrails, touch screens, scanners, and other frequently touched areas. > Our enhanced cleaning has added almost 200 additional points of contact per site across our janitorial teams, and we’ve increased the size of our cleaning teams threefold to support our buildings. > We require everyone to wash their hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds, especially after using the bathroom and before eating, as well as after blowing their nose, coughing, or sneezing. If soap and water are not readily available, alcohol-based hand sanitizer stations are easily accessible throughout our buildings. > In addition to break times, employees can log out of their system to wash their hands whenever they choose, without worrying about impact on their performance goals.
- uoaei 7y ago
  Context matters. We are now over a month into the crisis, if you count it from the moment of lockdown. The fact that this wasn't a day one policy is inexcusable. Stop playing PR hype-man for Amazon, they don't need your help.
  - duxup 7y ago
    That person is not playing anything. They are noting what the facts are right now.
mod 7y ago
> Forcing people to show up to work under these conditions is murder. Nobody can be forced to show up, and no, that's not murder. > A starting point would be... Amazon has a page listing their pretty thorough adjustments for health & safety: https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-prioritizes-health-and-safety-while-fulfilling-customer-orders https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-priorit...
- kevingadd 7y ago
  Unpaid time off is forcing low-income workers to show up unless they want to starve.
  - jshevek 7y ago
    By starve do you mean "go hungry", or "eat less", or "starve to death"? Edit: I find "starve" to be a hyperbolic and emotionally manipulative choice of words, but I don't want to assume the worst. Maybe you have good reason to use this term?
    - bl0b 7y ago
      Not having enough money to survive isn't a made up thing. However you want to define it, people need to make ends meet including right now.
      - jshevek 7y ago
        >Not having enough money to survive isn't a made up thing. No one has suggested that anything here is a 'made up thing', are you creating strawmen? >However you want to define it, people need to make ends meet including right now. I'm interested in understanding what the GP's point was. I don't get to definitely choose arbitrary definitions and interpretations for them. The dictionary and accepted usage offers a range of interpretations.
        bl0b 7y ago
macspoofing 7y ago
>What's a few avoidable deaths between friends, after all? There is no vaccine coming for a year, maybe two, maybe never. "Flattening the curve" is ONLY a delaying strategy to not swamp the health-care system and hope that some treatments are developed (no guarantees there either). COVID is going to be part of our lives. Are you saying we should shelter in place forever? >A starting point would be Amazon providing tests What tests? Are you expecting every employer to test their workers every day? >along with ensuring everyone has masks and gloves and enough time to thoroughly wash their hands throughout their shift. That's reasonable. Masks + social distancing + gloves, and policies for hand washing and disinfecting of commonly used surfaces. I suspect Amazon isn't too far from that, and if they are it's only because of the global PPE shortage.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  IMO a starting point is: Single test for all employees before return to work, 100% guarantee that everyone has a mask for their shifts, the facility has ventilation, and they have gloves. 100% guarantee that facilities have soap and running water. In the past all of what I mention has been a problem in warehouses, and it's why employees are protesting. Amazon can fix this, but it's been a problem very recently. It's super reasonable if they can't gather up a bunch of N95s and medical grade gloves, but paper surgical masks or cloth masks should be feasible by now. It sounds like they're working on their own testing infrastructure, which is great.
- CuriouslyC 7y ago
  The death rate with proper medical care is very low. The avoidable deaths are a direct result of a swamped medical system.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

newacct583 7y ago

> What's a few avoidable deaths between friends, after all? Amazon is about as close to the ideal of an "essential employer" as anyone is, though. They're shipping a huge amount of food and other essentials. Objectively, a package delivered through a managed professional environment is less risky and involves fewer potential transmission events than one purchased at retail. Online sellers, where they have product to deliver, are the ones we want to prioritize keeping open. Now... there's lots to complain about with Amazon's response in other ways. It's very reasonable to argue that their workers need more PPE, employer-provided testing and notification, hazard pay, better safety practices, etc... But if you want to argue that Amazon should shut down... who do you want to be open instead?

jcims 7y ago
I'm glad I waited an extra minute to comment b/c you did all the work. Amazon has allowed me to limit my local travels to two physical environments for essentially the past six weeks. There's a value to that in reducing transmission.
- aaomidi 7y ago
  By requiring others to do that for you and paying them pennies for what value they're providing. I'd agree with you if the company decided to not take profit during this time and paid the employees the same amount of value they produce.
  - bhupy 7y ago
    > By requiring others to do that for you and paying them pennies for what value they're providing. The median wage of an Amazon Warehouse worker is about $60,000 / year, which is above the median wage in the US[1]. The 25th-percentile wage for the same worker is $53,000 — still higher than the median wage, and this is an entry level position that requires no college eduction. Amazon also provides 401(k) matching for their warehouse workers and provides them the same group health insurance as their software engineers and executives[2][3]. It is quite possibly the most generous set of benefits currently available to an entry-level low-skill worker with no college education. > I'd agree with you if the company decided to not take profit during this time and paid the employees the same amount of value they produce. Couple things: 1) I think you're overestimating how much profit Amazon makes on its retail business; the margins are razor thin. 2) profit is just the cost of labor for the managers, I.e. the people that are coordinating the labor and calling the high-level shots. This includes coming up with the policies and systems to ensure the company can continue to operate in the midst of a global pandemic. Finally, Amazon employed 798,000 people as of 2019, and added 100,000 new jobs in the last month alone, with 50,000 current openings outstanding. A lot of the margin goes into literally providing all of these wages and benefits for nearly 1 million people. This is more than many industrialized nations. [1] https://www.paysa.com/salaries/amazon--warehouse-worker https://www.paysa.com/salaries/amazon--warehouse-worker [2] https://www.aboutamazon.com/amazon-fulfillment/working-here/compensation-and-benefits https://www.aboutamazon.com/amazon-fulfillment/working-here/... [3] https://www.glassdoor.com/Benefits/Amazon-US-Benefits-EI_IE6036.0,6_IL.7,9_IN1.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Benefits/Amazon-US-Benefits-EI_IE6...
    - whywhywhynot 7y ago
      The first number is so laughably far away from reality. Do you have any idea how many hours a week you would have to work to make $60k at $15/hr? Does the average warehouse worker make double the starting rate or work 70 hour weeks? As someone who works in the industry I do agree however that they do an okay job taking care of their people compared to others. But nobody is going to write an article about how shit it is to work at a warehouse owned by a company no one has ever heard of. Amazon has actually done a lot for people at those places too though, if there is an amazon warehouse nearby starting at $15 an hour nobody is going to come work for you for barely above minimum wage anymore, it has definitely put some out competitive wage pressure.
kevingadd 7y ago
Like I said, they can fix the problem. It sounds like they're trying, but it's not proven that they've gotten all the way. In the past they were clearly inadequate and it's why employees went on strike and publicly protested. "Essential employees" shouldn't be put at risk just because people need them to ship stuff out. We shouldn't put "essential employees"' immune-compromised relatives at risk either.
- newacct583 7y ago
  > "Essential employees" shouldn't be put at risk just because people need them to ship stuff out. But... isn't that what "essential" means? No one claims this is fair. It's not fair that as software developers we get an automatic pass to continue our careers working from home while our bartender friends have to file for unemployment either. But at the end of the day we need stuff to live. Someone needs to run the power and intenet and water infrastructure. And someone needs to deliver goods to people who need them. I mean: I agree we need to make this better for those folks. I just don't see how Amazon demanding essential workers come to work is the wrong thing here.

mardifoufs 7y ago

They are not forcing them since they are allowed to take time off. You can't self quarantine forever anyways, standard procedure is 14 days of quarantine if you think you may have been exposed to the virus or if you have any symptoms.

kevingadd 7y ago
Unpaid time off. How are people supposed to eat and pay rent if their only available leave is unpaid? How will they afford their hospital bills after being exposed?
- sida 7y ago
  Same as the 20+ million Americans who are laid off and seeking unemployment?
  - kevingadd 7y ago
    I'm not sure why that makes it okay to add to that population? Amazon has the resources to temporarily cover paid leave until they can guarantee safe conditions in their warehouses for employees. Regions that have prematurely relaxed their virus controls have seen new outbreaks, the same could happen in warehouses. It's in everyone's best interest for Amazon to offer paid leave until their workplaces have been proven to be safe, which is going to take a bit even after all the appropriate measures are in place.
    - bhupy 7y ago
      The safety net is by far the better way to address this, it's a drop in the bucket relative to the total cost of the safety net. > It's in everyone's best interest for Amazon to offer paid leave until their workplaces have been proven to be safe, which is going to take a bit even after all the appropriate measures are in place. Amazon appears to think that your "until" condition is here now, per the safety measures they purport to be taking.

xchaotic 7y ago

Yeah, I don’t see how few extra bucks is worth literally risking life. Total numbers look big but really it’s $120 more per each shift where you can be exposed or expose others to a deadly virus.

throwaway744678 7y ago
Remember that you are risking your life every day getting out of your bed, even without this virus.

flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago

>A starting point would be Amazon providing tests and ensuring that everyone has been tested before returning to work Amazon can't win. If they did that, the newspaper headlines would read "Bezos demands DNA samples of workers as a prerequisite to being paid."

kevingadd 7y ago
COVID tests aren't DNA tests. It's a swab of the back of your throat (through the nose, oof) to test for a specific virus. It's not hard to find the specific stuff used to perform the tests, it's out there on the internet, the CDC published it. Are we really descending into paranoia about Amazon trying to genetically profile employees?
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  There's a big population of people who just start from the premise that Amazon must be doing something wrong and search for facts to justify it. I lost my ability to assume good faith when people complained they should pay $15 an hour, they started paying $15 an hour, and then the controversy immediately restarted about how greedy they are to not pay more.
  - bhupy 7y ago
    Never mind the fact that Amazon does 401(k) matching and provides its warehouse workers the same group health insurance plan as their software engineers, which might possibly be the most generous health insurance plan for an entry-level position that requires no college degree.
  - jonknee 7y ago
    I'm pretty sure they could start paying a minimum wage of $30 an hour and people would be irate that they're making it impossible to hire anyone because Amazon is overpaying. When you're the biggest player there is nowhere to hide.
    - 7y ago

jonknee 7y ago

From their post on the topic it sounds like you should be happy with their plan: https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-prioritizes-health-and-safety-while-fulfilling-customer-orders https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-priorit... > Millions of masks have been distributed across our network. They are available to all Amazon associates, delivery service partners, Amazon Flex participants, seasonal employees, and Whole Foods Market stores employees. We are encouraging everyone to take and use them. As for testing, they have been unable to do it through regular channels so they are building a lab to do it themselves: > An important safety step might be regular testing of all employees for COVID-19, including those without symptoms. We have begun assembling equipment we need to build our first lab to process tests and hope to start testing small numbers of our frontline employees soon. As for cleanliness: > We have increased the frequency and intensity of cleaning at all sites, including regular sanitization of door handles, handrails, touch screens, scanners, and other frequently touched areas. > Our enhanced cleaning has added almost 200 additional points of contact per site across our janitorial teams, and we’ve increased the size of our cleaning teams threefold to support our buildings. > We require everyone to wash their hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds, especially after using the bathroom and before eating, as well as after blowing their nose, coughing, or sneezing. If soap and water are not readily available, alcohol-based hand sanitizer stations are easily accessible throughout our buildings. > In addition to break times, employees can log out of their system to wash their hands whenever they choose, without worrying about impact on their performance goals.

uoaei 7y ago
Context matters. We are now over a month into the crisis, if you count it from the moment of lockdown. The fact that this wasn't a day one policy is inexcusable. Stop playing PR hype-man for Amazon, they don't need your help.
- duxup 7y ago
  That person is not playing anything. They are noting what the facts are right now.

mod 7y ago

> Forcing people to show up to work under these conditions is murder. Nobody can be forced to show up, and no, that's not murder. > A starting point would be... Amazon has a page listing their pretty thorough adjustments for health & safety: https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-prioritizes-health-and-safety-while-fulfilling-customer-orders https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-priorit...

kevingadd 7y ago
Unpaid time off is forcing low-income workers to show up unless they want to starve.
- jshevek 7y ago
  By starve do you mean "go hungry", or "eat less", or "starve to death"? Edit: I find "starve" to be a hyperbolic and emotionally manipulative choice of words, but I don't want to assume the worst. Maybe you have good reason to use this term?
  - bl0b 7y ago
    Not having enough money to survive isn't a made up thing. However you want to define it, people need to make ends meet including right now.
    - jshevek 7y ago
      >Not having enough money to survive isn't a made up thing. No one has suggested that anything here is a 'made up thing', are you creating strawmen? >However you want to define it, people need to make ends meet including right now. I'm interested in understanding what the GP's point was. I don't get to definitely choose arbitrary definitions and interpretations for them. The dictionary and accepted usage offers a range of interpretations.
      - bl0b 7y ago

macspoofing 7y ago

>What's a few avoidable deaths between friends, after all? There is no vaccine coming for a year, maybe two, maybe never. "Flattening the curve" is ONLY a delaying strategy to not swamp the health-care system and hope that some treatments are developed (no guarantees there either). COVID is going to be part of our lives. Are you saying we should shelter in place forever? >A starting point would be Amazon providing tests What tests? Are you expecting every employer to test their workers every day? >along with ensuring everyone has masks and gloves and enough time to thoroughly wash their hands throughout their shift. That's reasonable. Masks + social distancing + gloves, and policies for hand washing and disinfecting of commonly used surfaces. I suspect Amazon isn't too far from that, and if they are it's only because of the global PPE shortage.

kevingadd 7y ago
IMO a starting point is: Single test for all employees before return to work, 100% guarantee that everyone has a mask for their shifts, the facility has ventilation, and they have gloves. 100% guarantee that facilities have soap and running water. In the past all of what I mention has been a problem in warehouses, and it's why employees are protesting. Amazon can fix this, but it's been a problem very recently. It's super reasonable if they can't gather up a bunch of N95s and medical grade gloves, but paper surgical masks or cloth masks should be feasible by now. It sounds like they're working on their own testing infrastructure, which is great.
CuriouslyC 7y ago
The death rate with proper medical care is very low. The avoidable deaths are a direct result of a swamped medical system.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]