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Career advice for people with bad luck

981 points by undefined1 6y ago

ashtonkem 6y ago
> The company is not your family. Some of the people in the company are your friends in the current context. It’s like your dorm in college. Hopefully some of them will still be your friends after. But don’t stay because you’re comfortable. This one hit hard. It’s amazing how many of the close work friends I had over the years were only close because of the shitty circumstances we endured together. Once that was gone, we actually had very few things in common. Not that I don’t have any former colleagues I’m close with, but the ratio of kept/lost has to be in the 1/10 range or lower.
- Kaze404 6y ago
  It doesn't have to be a bad thing. Thinking of how close I became to someone for no reason other than empathy makes me feel pretty good.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    I’m sure there’s reasons other than empathy that you might benefit from becoming close with your colleagues.
- Tade0 6y ago
  I retain an average of less than two friends from each previous job - that's how many people with values that I share I can find in any given company.
  - chesterarthur 6y ago
    You have to share values with someone to be their friend?
    - Insanity 6y ago
      To form a long-lasting friendship, you need at least some common ground to touch on.
      - chesterarthur 6y ago
        Shared interest and mutual respect is different than shared values
        Kye 6y ago
        Some values are incompatible with mutual respect.
      - werber 6y ago
        That's the great thing about co-worker friends. I don't have tech friends from my "real" life, but I have a ton of random friends from old jobs I talk to and (in what seems like a different life, before COVID-19) get together with regularly. What started as joking about agile processes is now planning weird trips and brunches.
    - phaemon 6y ago
      Yes. That's why none of my friends are neo-nazis, for example.
    - Tade0 6y ago
      I need to share any subset o values. Otherwise there's no space for dialogue. I believe this is the norm.
      - meddlepal 6y ago
        Are people using values to mean interests? I need to share some interests: sports, beer, model building, architecture etc... Values though? I can't see that being the norm unless your shared interest is politics, religion, or social order/dynamics.
- moneywoes 6y ago
  Been working 3 months at my first job and this realization hit me. I enjoy spending time with my coworkers but is it all in vain?
  - yetihehe 6y ago
    No, not in vain. If you enjoy it, it's for enjoyment. Just don't think they are your close friends. They are working with you and are nice to you because it's more enjoyable for everyone involved. Be nice to them too, but just don't expect big favors.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    No, it’s not in vain. But in order to build a relationship that’s permanent, it needs a strong anchoring in non-work things. If everything is just about work, then once that shared experience is gone the relationship will be too. Flip side, you don’t have to be besties with your colleagues. Enjoying time with them while you’re colleagues is an end upon itself. You’ll statistically have about a dozen jobs in your life, which’ll bring in close to 100 colleagues into your life. Chances are you can’t and won’t remain friends with all of them, and that’s ok too.
  - collyw 6y ago
    Nah. Two jobs ago had wonderful people and we still regularly meet up for drinks (despite the company being a load for shite to work for). Next job was a lot more family people and we rarely went for drinks together. I am not really in touch with them any more (perfectly nice people but the bonding never happened).
    - neltnerb 6y ago
      Of course, the family people probably were friends with each other.
      - collyw 6y ago
        Everyone at family company was friendly at lunch, it's just the we didn't socialize after work at all (well a couple of times). The younger company regularly went drinking together.
- gerland 6y ago
  It's a bit like that with every friend that you make. Most people lose contact with firends they made in school. Even family ties seems to be not that strong after all. It's all a matter of context. That being said, what do you actully expect when spending time with work peers? It's supposed to be just relax after work. If it does not "spark joy" then just don't do it. If it does, then do not expect any other value. Friendship is not about how much you can get from others.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > It’s amazing how many of the close work friends I had over the years were only close because of the shitty circumstances we endured together. Isn't that how most people form friends normally though? Through a shared experience? Especially a tough or formative one? Friends you meet at school, in your first year at uni, in bootcamp, on a sports team, these are how most people meet their life-long friends.
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    Yes, but I think there's a lot of variation in what people want out of work-friends. My parents are super social to the point of inviting over colleagues for dinner regularly, but I think they're also so social (and worked for nonprofits that are more like family) that they simply have so many options that the ones they pick are much closer work-friends that often last decades. Other people really do just want to go home and do their own thing. As long as no one is rude, there's room for both. I find that after spending that many hours with work friends I rarely want to spend extra time with them when I could spend that time connecting with existing friends I haven't seen in a while who I'm already very close to. Balance. I've rarely had a work friend turn into a real friend though, but I'm also totally happy with that. I need breaks from people and don't want to get sucked into the work as life mindset. I'd rather meet new people at... pick a hobby. Dancing, singing, karate, whatever. That's how I make new friends, through hobbies rather than work because work friends dominating my social life feels incredibly unbalanced.
    - syshum 6y ago
      as an introvert I am one to just " want to go home and do their own thing.", I have rarely kept in touch with former co-workers, sometimes I regret that but I was not born with a drive to be social. One draw back of that is my professional network is limited as well, in times of economic decline a robust professional network is often the key between employment and not
      - neltnerb 6y ago
        I agree. If you want a possible compromise solution, consider sending cards to ex-coworkers on birthdays or holidays. It's pretty easy if you use an online service to print and mail them and boy would that make an impression that you value their long term acquaintance. My aunt runs an engineering firm and does this with so many people, I remember driving with her to deliver birthday flowers and stuff. That's all professional relationship building though, I truly don't think those people are ones she'd invite to a movie or over for dinner. Maintaining professional relationships does take constant low key attention though, if they only hear from you when you need something it's not a good look.
- omniscient_oce 6y ago
  You may like the Japanese phrase 一期一会 (ichi-go-ichi-e). To me it means that you should cherish each relationship and encounter, regardless of whether you know it will last a long time or not. You may never get the chance to experience that particular relationship again. I actually learnt this word firsthand from a man that it applies to, an middle-aged Japanese guy who was volunteering with kids near where I live. We got along well, laughed and ate, but he went back home and I will never see him again. But that doesn't diminish the worthiness of experiencing of getting to know him and enjoying time together, because all things have their place. I'm writing this as much for me as for you or anyone else here. Good night
  - kotrunga 6y ago
    Thank you for sharing this.
  - vmception 6y ago
    I do like that! I have been telling people that I'm content with relationships existing in chapters. Not everyone needs to be a follow on social media. Lets praise the utility and companionship of the time it was applicable. And maybe there is a cameo appearance in another chapter.
  - kevsim 6y ago
    That's a lovely concept. Thanks for sharing!
  - maemilius 6y ago
    My mom has a similar saying: "People enter your life for a reason, a season, or a lifetime." The idea is the same: you should cherish the relationships you have - while you have them - and let them go when they're over.
    - omniscient_oce 6y ago
      I really like that one too. Cheers
  - disqard 6y ago
- mortenjorck 6y ago
  It is amazing what circumstance can do for bonding, though. I still keep in occasional touch with a handful of people I’ve worked with, but the exception is the group from a company that spectacularly imploded: A couple of years after most of us left or were let go, we still talk all the time.
- lexcom 6y ago
  This one is hard. Once you leave the company that's it; you'll probably never hear from them again. Can they still be considered friends if you're on their contacts list, but you haven't spoken/messaged them in years?
- kradroy 6y ago
  My view is: "You can be 'friendly' with coworkers without being 'friends'." My test for friendship is: "Would I call this person to bail me out of jail?" The answer to that question from me has always excluded all my coworkers and managers, despite them being nice and helpful people. I've also worked at a family company. They may claim you're "family" too, but that's just marketing hype. The truth is the family members will always be better compensated than you for doing far less. And when tough times come, you will take a hit before any family member.
conformist 6y ago
This seems to be good advice for anyone with not-top-quartile luck, not only bad luck.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  Perhaps it’s simply good advice, and the people you see as being “lucky“ already know it (if only intuitively).
2sk21 6y ago
Having worked for a dying tech startup at one point in the early 2000s - I spent time agonizing over the fact that if I quit, the company would become unviable - I was one of the key technical people and was the only person with a good understanding of our entire product. After much dithering, I did ultimately leave and the company did fold shortly thereafter. I did feel bad at the time but in retrospect, I have come to realize that it was inevitable and I should have left even sooner.
- wiredfool 6y ago
  Yep. It’s a really rough call. I really dislike getting into the key employee role, but it’s happened a couple of times.
- codingdave 6y ago
  I sympathize with feeling like the company can't do the job without you. It is a tough place to be. But ultimately, unless you are an exec or owner, that is not your problem. Your job is not a marriage, it is an ongoing business transaction. If the leadership built a company so dependent on one person, yet failed to either make sure that person was stupendously happy and satisfied there, or at least have a backup plan for that person's bus factor, that is their own management mistake.
- larrik 6y ago
  I feel like this situation calls for making you a partner. If you are SO valuable the company can't even survive without you, then you ARE the company and should be treated as such.
  - specitley 6y ago
    I’m in this position now as the only developer in a successful company that has been operating in lean startup mode for years and every employee has become “irreplaceable” with no contingency plans. I brought partnership up with the owner and he wouldn’t consider it. It’s going to be rough For them when I leave and any “friendships” will definitely be erased.
  - 6y ago
pjc50 6y ago
Retention offers: yeah. I've been given retention offers twice, and the second time round I explicitly said "I don't want money, I want you to change the way this team and product is managed, like the previous times we discussed this, but that's not going to happen, is it?" I ended up getting much more money, less responsibility, a nicer less open plan office, and a less dysfunctional process. Risk: yes, sometimes you just have to go full Light Brigade and charge the guns. Generally the worst possible consequence is you lose your job and everyone forgets it, but be aware that sometimes the consequences are worse and your chances of landing on your feet depend on your privilege level. You have no right to judge people who don't do this.
- collyw 6y ago
  > a nicer less open plan office, Impressive.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    To be clear, this wasn't the retention offer, this was the new job! And it's still technically open, but nicely spaced with sound-absorbing partitions. The dysfunctional place had a pingpong table within earshot.
    - chrisabrams 6y ago
      This was not clear :O Would be good to clarify in your original post.
      - pjc50 6y ago
        Edit window now closed, but yes. My point was that a counteroffer can only ever change a very small set of things, so they're very rarely worth bothering with.
mettamage 6y ago
Finally, a post that isn't all hunky dory. I'm at the bottom quartile at the moment, so I'm happy to take any reasonable advice that doesn't sound like: study algorithms and get into Google. Ok, I studied algorithms, got rejected at the paper round. Now what? The tough part isn't passing the interview, it's getting a chance in the first place. This advice is better. Some points that really stood out to me and that I'll take to heart: > But if you have an amazing manager at a shit company you’ll still have a shit time. > “Take any role, at any pay, on a rocketship and everything will work out” is only sort of true. With that said, a lot of the advice is quite US-centric. Not many Dutch startups would offer stock options as far as I know, for example.
- okt 6y ago
  my 2 cents: there is rarely a shortcut available and is hardly a 6 months course work designed to get into google or the alike unless you have a friend or family member who guides you through the whole process and points you to the right direction, not least giving hope and motivation. you have to develop a sustainable long term learning habit to hone your skills without being getting burned out and without hoping a dramatic success in the short term. To get noticed or get an interview you have to identify people there and somehow get them forward your CV and/or build some proof of your skills in form of personal projects which many others like you dont have. Chances you are, you will get atleast an interview somewhere at big tech, if not at google.
  - mettamage 6y ago
    > some proof of your skills in form of personal projects which many others like you dont have. I have quite a bit of personal projects, actually.
- coldpie 6y ago
  IMO, forget the big companies and startups. There's plenty of opportunities at smaller, established companies, which are, in my opinion, often better places to work anyway.
  - 6y ago
ptero 6y ago
Most of it is reasonable, if already often quoted advice. But I did not see what does it have to do with the title: "for people with bad luck"
- Kye 6y ago
  People with good luck are probably not looking for career advice.
  - ptero 6y ago
    I am not so sure of this. IME folks who do well are, on average, much more willing to hear external advice. They do not take it as direction (and, on disagreement would rarely try to convince the speaker that (s)he is wrong), but they would actually listen and try to understand the point, then make their own decision on whether they should act on it. Also, (not bad_luck) != good_luck. I think most people would consider themselves average_luck.
undebuggable 6y ago
- good luck! - don't need it, never had it!
rb808 6y ago
A lot of talk here that colleagues aren't friends. What is wrong with you people? If you like your colleagues you can invite them to do stuff after you or they leave. They probably haven't invited you because they never got around to it either. Most of the older generation people met through work is the only way to make friends. No wonder loneliness is so rampant now.
- growlist 6y ago
  There's a kind of snobby attitude at play here sometimes I think, as in: 'of course I wouldn't socialise with my colleagues outside work! They are nowhere near as interesting as me and my super-awesome, quirky and unique bunch of mates, I'm just slumming it for the money'.
  - draw_down 6y ago
    Well, sometimes it happens that the people you work with really are duller than those in other parts of tour life. Jobs are jobs.
- kamaal 6y ago
  Unacknowledged fact. Due to Stack Ranking and modern day Machivellian work culture, colleagues are competitors. Most relationships end up the same way. If there is some kind of comparative ranking/selection, even if it is just fame or some recognition. Even sibling rivalry roots in this.
  - werber 6y ago
    I've had such a different experience than you. I feel that being friends with co-workers has always been more about mutual aid than competition.
    - k__ 6y ago
      Probably depends on the job. We devs always got along well, even the idiots were kind of included. But I had the impression, things were different sales or the management team.
brobdingnagians 6y ago
> It’s also okay to take risks. Staying at a company that’s slowly dying has its costs too. Stick around too long and you’ll lose your belief that you can build, that change is possible. Try not to learn the wrong habits. I love this. I recently decided to move towards quitting at a job that is slowly dying and find something else to do. My mood immediately lightened, even though nothing except my mental direction has changed. I don't want to let cynicism seep into me; I want to find something I'm excited about.
- meddlepal 6y ago
  +1 on this. I bailed out of a startup I was an early engineer at and worked at for close to four years awhile back and immediately my depression and frustration cleared up.
betageek 6y ago
This is one of the most useful posts ever to grace the front page.
throw4failure 6y ago
This seems like a good thread in which to try to solicit some advice, since it's at least tangentially related. I was terminated from my last job. In my opinion it was due to my chronic and major depression that I have since been seeking extensive treatment (medication, several months rent in therapy) for. I say "in my opinion" because I really can't rule out that I'm just a lazy, crappy developer who is trying to use mental health as an excuse. Either way, I've been unemployed for over half a year and am now trying to re-enter the job market. Obviously the gap is a bit of a red flag that I've been candid about to potential employers, in the sense that I speak about a medical issue, not the specifics. If I could go back in time, I would have quit from my last job before being fired, but honestly I was beyond caring about anything, period, so the consequences of taking the career L barely phased me. There was no upside to being fired, I just didn't care. Now, I wish I had cared, because it's an elephant in the room I don't really know how to address. Do I tackle it proactively by outright telling everyone I was canned? Do I wait until they call up my former employer to verify my work history? If anyone else has been in a remotely similar situation I would greatly appreciate any tips or feedback. Please just refrain from telling me I messed up - I definitely know I did.
- MrPatan 6y ago
  Why would I see the parent comment grey? I surely hope there is some rule I don't understand here about new accounts, because otherwise it means somebody had nothing better to do than to be mean to someone depressed and asking for help. Maybe that's the advice for you, if you're feeling down go have a look around for somebody who has it worse than you and push them further down! Nice work, everybody.
  - Kye 6y ago
    It wasn't gray when I got to it. This is part of why the guidelines discourage complaining about downvotes. It's often temporary. Someone was probably just having a bad day.
    - ShamelessC 6y ago
      I could be wrong but I thought comments of a certain length were greyed a bit to discourage lengthy comments?
sys_64738 6y ago
My advice is to do a startup as early in your career as possible. Then you'll feel failure and the emptiness as it hits the skids. It's a life lesson in a few months because startups that fail usually tip over the cliff real fast.
- rwmj 6y ago
  In my experience the worst start ups don't hit the skids fast. They kind of keep bumping along, often for years. Neither growing much, nor dying, nor making much money, nor losing enough to go out of business. I even co-founded one of these a few years ago. If you're in one of these my advice is to recognise it and quit.
  - Kye 6y ago
    Those kinds of startups should have been lifestyle businesses, but someone convinced the founder it was unicorn or nothing.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    Even worse: they succeed wildly, to the extent they never need funding again after a series C, buy out the VC's, and stay private. This is roughly what I'm expecting from one of the startups I worked at. I already know they'll never need to take another dime in funding, so I'm just waiting for them to tell me how my shares are going to become worthless.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
giantg2 6y ago
To the people questioning why it is about luck: I think it is because it is written from the perspective that you are at a bad/dying company or have a bad boss. A lot of this article seems to be about leaving that situation. If you had good luck, then you might have been hired onto a good company in the first place. I do think the article should point out that sometimes bad luck just happens and there's nothing that could have mitigated it. I work for a good company (top 20 IT best places to work) and I have had good managers (some bad too) and I have still been unlucky. I saw a coworker get promoted rapidly for filling the tech lead role for one year. When he left, I stepped up to fill that role for 1.5 years. I didn't get promoted or even the highest performance rating. My manager even told me they believed I deserved it but didn't have to power to make it happen.
znpy 6y ago
Regarding retainment offers and somebody commenting on the fact that he asked for changes instead of money for retainment: I recently took note of this beautiful quote by Bryan Cantrill: if you can't make the right thing happen then it's time to leave.
CSMastermind 6y ago
> Your equity package is a lottery ticket with expected value of zero. That's good advice no matter where you're going.
- giantg2 6y ago
  Good stock market advice too. It doesn't matter what your account says your balance is. It only matters what you get when you sell it.
  - travisjungroth 6y ago
    Considering the expected value of your publicly traded stocks at 0 is not good advice. If you actually believe that, then it would make sense to trade all of your holdings for a dollar.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      I think you ignored the last sentence of my previous comment :)
      - travisjungroth 6y ago
        I didn’t ignore it. It’s just in conflict with your first sentence. I’m not sure if you’re talking about EV in technical terms, or a more lose “count on it way”, but neither makes sense to discount to 0. Like if you’re 50 and have a million dollars in stocks for retirement, you should put an expected value of 0 on that? Seems silly to me.
        giantg2 6y ago
        Fair point. My unstated perspective was from investing in a single stock without stop-loss orders using an informal 'don't count on it' definition. Yes, depending on the stock and many other factors - it probably shouldn't be zero. Same should be said of the equity package in the parent comment depending upon the circumstances and terms.
dudul 6y ago
Overall really good post, but I'm curious about the "Politics emerge when the players believe the game is zero sum". What are the arguments that it's not a zero sum game? In theory, sure it's not. Everybody works to increase revenue and profits, ergo everybody benefits, but in reality?
vmception 6y ago
Its been impossible for me to get a tech job in the last 6 months, I stopped with the global COVID outbreak. In the past I used to have 1 month of unemployement max, from the time I reached out to the first recruiter (internal or third party), to actually starting a job. Now recruiters all tap me for Level 5's and Level 6's and reach out within 24 hours of my cold submission through their websites - after the disclaimers all say "expect 4-6 weeks for reply". At first I realized I needed to brush up on Leetcode, what people are actually looking for in System Design interviews, and even behavioral/leadership stuff. A few educational SaaS subscriptions later, I find it all really fascinating. Although when I see the answers to a lot of "hard" problems, I really question my abstract problem solving capabilities. But I know this is not what happens on the job, thats the kicker, but I have accepted that my full time job was getting good at the interview job. Later on, after I was solving the brain teasers in 5 minutes in the coderpad/in browser compiler, and asking "is there another part to the problem" and getting no, STILL to be rejected, I realized this was not the best use of my time. I have no idea what people are looking for, maybe I need to delete all my online profiles and pretend my resume has half of the experience (Founder, small acquisition, probably too public and nobody can say so. Maybe they expected a savant and my moderately above average interview performance wasn't good enough.. for me. Seems like a trap for founders.) I didn't want lower comp ranges and was at least getting interviewed by everyone imaginable... ? I was just about ready to lower my ask, until COVID hit and realized I can't get evicted, my health insurance won't get cancelled, my phone bill and my internet won't either. I don't even want to see what offers look like right now, and there are a ton of other priorities. Low key, I only needed time, but after how gamified leetcoding has become it started becoming a point of pride for me to get accepted. But I don't really need golden handcuffs, I would stay for the 1 year cliff, maybe. I don't think this was oozing through my fascade in interviews, of course I'm passionate about your flying scooter fintech platform :D (eye roll), but feel free to think thats why I was getting rejected. In my notes it wasn't all rejections. Some (VC backed, and also mid-size) companies said they cancelled the position after talking with me and realizing they needed a completely different role, or the hiring manager didn't really have as much autonomy over the role they thought and the company focused their efforts on another team. In others (Big Tech) they didn't even know I wasn't already in the company, and therefore I was at an inherent disadvantage and pulled harder from internal pool. (Other big tech does matchmaking after an offer). All I have are anecdotes. I had friend and founder referrals to their current startups, every "in" you could imagine, and still rejections. The silver lining? I did get exposed to Tech Lead, and his soap opera of a life is very engaging! The people you meet along the way, right?
mdorazio 6y ago
I really want to see more articles like this on HN. However, this is really "career advice for people at struggling companies." The luck part doesn't get discussed in the way I expected. To me, bad luck is things like: - You're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Ex. you graduated in 2008-2010/now or your business sector got wiped out by COVID - Despite your best efforts at networking, you simply never meet that magical person who can strap a booster rocket to your career/company - You don't have a resilient financial and mental safety net in the form of good friends/family early in your career that enables you to take risks, or you got dealt a bad hand in the form of things like dependents or health issues and simply can't afford to take risks - Despite all your work, you get blindsided by things completely out of your control. Ex. a big company straight up rips off your product/service/side gig or an executive at your company guts your project/department - You don't have the magic paper credentials to get you through the doors at places you want to go because you didn't know you needed them earlier in life when they were practical to get These are the kinds of things I want to see tackled with real-world career advice since I think they apply to a lot of people. For every lucky executive or entrepreneur there are many who were unlucky.
- idclip 6y ago
  I second this.
- shortlived 6y ago
  >> You don't have a resilient financial and mental safety net in the form of good friends/family early in your career that enables you to take risks, or you got dealt a bad hand in the form of things like dependents or health issues and simply can't afford to take risks +1
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- vsareto 6y ago
  The bad luck is thinking a company is having a good luck and then realize it isn't. Running into people able to manipulate you is also bad luck. Companies are selling you during the interview. Sometimes good businesses hire bad people who are good at interviews (maliciously or not), sometimes bad businesses who are good at interviews hire good people (maliciously or not).
imdsm 6y ago
That missing ) is bothering me
username90 6y ago
Step 1: Get a well paying job at a big tech company. There is very little luck involved in this, just get really good at algorithms. No need for a famous school, specific degree etc. It requires intelligence, if you don't have that then you need luck. Step 2: Save more than two thirds of your take home salary, you can still live way better than the people sweeping the office floor. Step 3: You now have a ton of money saved up, take whatever risks you like or just retire early.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >Step 1: Get a well paying job at a big tech company. There is very little luck involved in this, just get really good at algorithms. Let me stop you right there. Maybe that works in SV but in most of Europe(the world?) you aint getting in to any well paying job at a big tech company without a degree from a prestigious university or previous experience at equally big and famous companies. Companies here don't have the FAANG resources to whiteboard everyone who bothers to apply and check their algorithm skills when all the future employee needs to do is work on some CRUD app so they initially select based on how impressive your resume is and run you through some coding test later to weed out the bullshitters. Although I live and work in a city with one of the top 300 technical universities in the world where graduating means you have to study algorithms, advanced math, etc. almost no jobs here outside or research and academia require knowledge about algorithms. Companies just want an experienced node/python plumber ASAP.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    I can second that sentiment in Canada as well - I'm not even aware of what the good paying jobs would even be - there's none with FAANG fame, and every job has a hard wall with a laundry list of 5+ years of experience with a dozen web technologies that you can only climb over with the appropriate connections.
    - chrisandchips 6y ago
      As a canadian, I disagree with how strict you’re describing the issue to be. There are a fair amount of big and well established companies that are not going to penalize you for lacking the five years and connections. With that said, they’re almost all in Toronto, but that’s a different issue ..
diogenescynic 6y ago
Graduated with my BA in 2009 and definitely dealt with bad luck. Now, I work at a good company and have a good job (for now), but they are clearly making moves to shift the jobs to Texas. I’m just finishing my MBA and finding it really hard to find a job. Everyone wants you to have 5-8 years of experience doing exactly what they’re hiring for and don’t seem willing to train if you have 60-80% of the qualifications. Really sucks because trying to shift from one finance discipline (treasury/tax/FP&A/Corp Finance) doesn’t seem like companies are willing to consider.
- non-entity 6y ago
  > Everyone wants you to have 5-8 years of experience doing exactly what they’re hiring for and don’t seem willing to train if you have 60-80% of the qualifications. This is a big worry for me. I'm leaning towards switching to a loosely related disciple in a few years, but with programming domains. However, when I research jobs in domains in looking at, a vast majority explicitly want at least a couple years in that exact domain, but most want upwards of 5 years.
efficax 6y ago
The point made in here about how your company is not your family cannot be emphasized enough. Corporate culture, and especially tech startup culture, likes to make you believe that we're all family and best friends and love each other. That attitude stays up right until the day they lay you off without warning. It's great to work with great people that you enjoy being around, and we should treat each other all with human dignity and respect, and with a bit of fun. But your boss is not, and never will be, your friend.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  But I think there can also be too much negativity around "the company is not a family". At this point, with 3 major crashes in the past 20 years, I feel like only bad companies say the company is a family. Good companies say, and act like, the company is a team. People can work hard together, they can be friends, but they are clear that the reason for the team is to accomplish a goal, and if the structure of the team needs to be changed to accomplish that goal, people will be cut. This team mentality can provide true clarity of purpose, and can eliminate any sense of bitterness if things don't work out. When people are cut from a high caliber sports team they may be immensely disappointed, but if treated fairly they understand it. The family mentality almost always results in bitterness, because what kind of family kicks out their members when things get slightly tough?
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    Exactly. If a company says "we're a family," then, either they are (a family business), or they're lying. I always say "you don't fire your brother," when people say something like this.
- Hokusai 6y ago
  > But your boss is not, and never will be, your friend. I agree with the sentiment. I am still friends with people that were my direct reports many years ago. But, when I was their manager, I treat them fairly like any other employee. That they were my friends meant that we will hang after work hours. But, as I manager I could not be their friends in work hours. Favoritism will have been extremely unfair for the rest of employees, that still were very good people. I also have friends that have been my managers. And, in the job I expected to be treated equally than the rest of employees. I guess that we are still friends because we think in a similar way about justice and work ethics. With teammates has been different. I have been part of awesome teams that we have been friends while working together to later on drift apart as our interests outside the job does not match (quite usually people with children that have limited time to hang out). The opposite of that are managers that "feel betrayed" when you leave a company that has been mistreating you, or tell you that they expect loyalty to the company that is not reciprocal. They are the "paterfamilias" of a dysfunctional and abusive family. There is nothing worse that a manager that expects to be treated as a friend, with loyalty and sacrifice but sees you as just a number.
Reimersholme 6y ago
"Politics emerge when the players believe the game is zero sum. In a recession, the players are more likely to believe the game is zero sum." I'd put emphasis on this, but with the difference that in a recession, it's a negative sum game and not zero sum, which explains why there will definitely be politics.
lukejduncan 6y ago
"luck is the residue of design"
jerzyt 6y ago
It maybe too cynical, but I'm fond of the saying that I'm loyal to the company as longs as the paycheck doesn't bounce.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  I think you're not cynical enough. You should definitely keep an eye out for a bigger paycheck elsewhere. Your company wouldn't hesitate to cut you loose if they thought it would make or save them a dollar in the long run.
jorblumesea 6y ago
> Your equity package is a lottery ticket with expected value of zero. While this is true, it's vastly more true for startups and privately owned companies vs publicly owned. Amazon's stock price might fluctuate but the chances of it being worthless are slim.
- foreigner 6y ago
  But equity packages are typically stock options, not stock. So they're only worth anything if the stock price goes way up.
  - jorblumesea 6y ago
    For publicly traded companies, many equity packages now include RSUs, or give you the option to choose between options and RSUs. Which are worth something so long as the stock has any value. Perhaps I am twisting the value of what equity package means.
  - opportune 6y ago
    Not for any big US tech company I've heard of! I think that is only for startups. FAANG (well, Netflix doesn't do equity comp normally), Microsoft, etc. it's all direct equity that vests over time.
black_puppydog 6y ago
Somehow that page 404'd on me and just showed "Not Found". I nearly closed it thinking I had read what I had come to read... XD
WhompingWindows 6y ago
The concept of "bad luck" is reinforced by endless self-comparison with those who had extremely good luck. It's MUCH more valuable to compare yourself to those who are unlucky: the mentally disabled, those who died from COVID at age 29, those born/raised in North Korea. Compared to these people, we've all hit the fucking jackpot. Adjust your mindset and you'll notice you're luckier than you thought you were.
- hpoe 6y ago
  “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.” ― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning
  - JackRabbitSlim 6y ago
    “But it was alright, everything was alright, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.” -- George Orwell, 1984
    - breischl 6y ago
      Frankl was a holocaust concentration camp survivor. I don't think that's exactly what he was getting at. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Comparing yourself to people born in North Korea, etc. isn't actionable though. In other words, so what, other people are more unlucky than me? I know that already.
hachibu 6y ago
> Every time I’ve outsourced my thinking for a job change (n=2) I love the n = 2 aside. I really like OP's sense of humor.
YesThatTom2 6y ago
I’m sure that’s good advice for SOME people but I just read about this bitcoin startup that...
cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
Just loaded the website and it says "Not Found". Brutal... Does this mean people with bad luck should give up? https://imgur.com/a/s5AhAEZ https://imgur.com/a/s5AhAEZ
hmart 6y ago
I live in a 3rd world country, worked the last 20 years as systems administrator. Recently lost my job and while looking for a new remote job I have been touched by the hard reality: The world changed and I was full of self leniency, years using the same bash scripts, the same tricks day to day. Did lot of things maintenance, networking, security,databases, mail servers, anti spam. I consider myself capable of put a SMB connected and working. My job didn’t demanded me new skills an I was self indulgent, happy to have enough money for the day. Some recent job interviews showed me a depressing reality : I did the least, I know the minimum, never upgrade my knowledge, just relied on Google search. I didn’t know about CI, CD, containerization, DevOps in general. I have a B.S in Systems Engineering (Some sort of CS , without the ‘science’ part) enjoyed math and code in college, done tens of websites in WordPress, Joomla and some Drupal, I’m capable of code in Php, some bash, some ruby, some python. I’m in my mid forties a kid 4 years old and cannot afford to stay worried, I have to do something to land a remote job, I want to thrive and motivated enough to learn, but time is ticking would like to hear some advice.
- karimdxy 6y ago
  Since you like coding and apparently you happen to enjoy building websites why not transition to web dev? The barrier to entry is relatively low. Give freecodecamp (https://freecodecamp.org https://freecodecamp.org) a shot and let me know if you ever need help!
  - hmart 6y ago
    Thank you!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- hattori 6y ago
  It seems you nailed exactly what is the problem and what needs to be done or learned. You have more or less ideal background to jump into these tools, it's just matter of spending some time and considering your experience it will take less than for most of people. You'll be ok.
kursus 6y ago
> The company is not your family. Yes, and it's also not your friend. That's an easy mistake to make. You owe your company nothing more than work and loyalty.
personaenon 6y ago
Anyone know/have a work from home Solaris SA gig? My end of IT is DEAD!!! Yes, I know Solaris is dead, but RHEL doesn't have much atm either.....
yingw787 6y ago
I've been reading the Incerto series by Nassim Taleb and he talks quite frequently about nonlinearities and their outsize impact. He mentions how a friend of his saw how during the Gulf War, everybody had planned for the war to increase the price of oil. So his friend bet against everybody else. Turns out, everybody was stockpiling oil due to the war, and given how short it was, there was an oil glut afterwards. His friend turned $300,000 into $18M. It's difficult to work for a FAANG and become wealthy, as in move between socioeconomic classes. You have to play politics and become fragile in your building of human relationships, which can fall apart much more quickly than your competence as a software engineer (barring a brain aneurysm or a TBI, where you have much more pressing problems). If you bet that the stock market would absolutely tank by end of March, and acted on that impulse financially, you would be wealthy today. Renaissance Technologies rose 39% and is having one of their best years ever. It's not secret, exclusive knowledge. I started taking health precautions two weeks before the crash. I didn't act financially, because I honestly didn't think of it, and because I don't like the principle of shorting the market and betting against my country and my people. My takeaway isn't go on wallstreetbets and attempt to yolo my way through life. My takeaway is people who bet on linearities are much more similar than you think. $300K, $70K, does it really matter? In the grand scheme of things, you're still a peon either way. You're a middle class guy, with little influence on Capitol Hill and less access to PPE and ventilators, high taxes, one primary income stream, and still trade time for money instead of building capital and having money work for you. So if you feel down, keep a good head on your shoulders, don't despair, and consume as much information as you can on a regular basis. If you want to, look for ways to benefit from nonlinearities. And if you do make it, be a humanist and don't forget to give back to the people who raised you and taught you and care for you.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  > It's difficult to work for a FAANG and become wealthy, as in move between socioeconomic classes You're goal should not necessarily be to move up a social-economic class, but to at least provide your children with more opportunity than you had. Inter-generational wealth accumulation is very important. Most people don't go rags to riches, it's typically families that do so over multiple generations. With poor people focusing on educating their children, who become professionals, who then have kids with the opportunity to make it big. If you look at Bill Gates, he's the son of a judge. Zuckerberg is the son of a dentist. One of the Google founders is the son of a college professor. Even our president came from a wealthy family.
haskellandchill 6y ago
diversify income, I'm learning tattoo and working food service jobs because I'm too high variance in programming. I can be really good but I also go bust a lot :)
OliverJones 6y ago
Lots of great insight here into the weltanschauung of scrambling startups. This one especially: "It’s the nature of boards that they ignore (externally) problems until their hand is forced." Translation: if the execs are doing a bad job, the board WILL NOT INTERVENE. Nobody on the board wants to take over for an inept manager. If you're waiting for them to do that ... don't wait any more.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
cabbagehatch 6y ago
https://youtu.be/N8wQtWi7sJk https://youtu.be/N8wQtWi7sJk It all starts with this video
cabbagehatch 6y ago
https://youtu.be/N8wQtWi7sJk https://youtu.be/N8wQtWi7sJk It all starts with this video...
anonymous24 6y ago
I'm considering myself as a back luck person. Graduated with CS major but has been stuck in a QA engineer position. So, after many failures to become dev, I decided to take a M.S degree to sharp my skills and my resume. But when i'm gonna graduate soon, the Covid-19 happens.
dhosek 6y ago
The bit about the equity package rings true to me. I've never had options that have been worth anything. And I had an employee stock purchase program that was a can't lose deal where the shares would be priced at the lower of the price at the beginning and end of the purchase period. Problem was, between the end of the purchase period and the delivery of the shares, the stock price dropped by 30%.
f2000 6y ago
Best career advice I've lived a number of times: "If you're on a sinking ship, get off"
andrelgomes 6y ago
> Don’t think that there won’t be politics because there wasn’t politics before. Politics emerge when the players believe the game is zero sum. In a recession, the players are more likely to believe the game is zero sum. Another related quote from someone I read on another post "People call it politics when they are losing" [0]. A major draw to work for a early/medium startups is that there is "no" politics/bureaucracy, to get out of the "cog of the machine". As the company grows, processes are naturally developed and when the term "politics" is more frequently used. This projected recession is accelerating the development of processes, i.e. politics, for all companies. [edit] [o]: hackernews, motohagiography

981 points by undefined1 6y ago

> The company is not your family. Some of the people in the company are your friends in the current context. It’s like your dorm in college. Hopefully some of them will still be your friends after. But don’t stay because you’re comfortable. This one hit hard. It’s amazing how many of the close work friends I had over the years were only close because of the shitty circumstances we endured together. Once that was gone, we actually had very few things in common. Not that I don’t have any former colleagues I’m close with, but the ratio of kept/lost has to be in the 1/10 range or lower.

Kaze404 6y ago
It doesn't have to be a bad thing. Thinking of how close I became to someone for no reason other than empathy makes me feel pretty good.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  I’m sure there’s reasons other than empathy that you might benefit from becoming close with your colleagues.
Tade0 6y ago
I retain an average of less than two friends from each previous job - that's how many people with values that I share I can find in any given company.
- chesterarthur 6y ago
  You have to share values with someone to be their friend?
  - Insanity 6y ago
    To form a long-lasting friendship, you need at least some common ground to touch on.
    - chesterarthur 6y ago
      Shared interest and mutual respect is different than shared values
      - Kye 6y ago
        Some values are incompatible with mutual respect.
    - werber 6y ago
      That's the great thing about co-worker friends. I don't have tech friends from my "real" life, but I have a ton of random friends from old jobs I talk to and (in what seems like a different life, before COVID-19) get together with regularly. What started as joking about agile processes is now planning weird trips and brunches.
  - phaemon 6y ago
    Yes. That's why none of my friends are neo-nazis, for example.
  - Tade0 6y ago
    I need to share any subset o values. Otherwise there's no space for dialogue. I believe this is the norm.
    - meddlepal 6y ago
      Are people using values to mean interests? I need to share some interests: sports, beer, model building, architecture etc... Values though? I can't see that being the norm unless your shared interest is politics, religion, or social order/dynamics.
moneywoes 6y ago
Been working 3 months at my first job and this realization hit me. I enjoy spending time with my coworkers but is it all in vain?
- yetihehe 6y ago
  No, not in vain. If you enjoy it, it's for enjoyment. Just don't think they are your close friends. They are working with you and are nice to you because it's more enjoyable for everyone involved. Be nice to them too, but just don't expect big favors.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  No, it’s not in vain. But in order to build a relationship that’s permanent, it needs a strong anchoring in non-work things. If everything is just about work, then once that shared experience is gone the relationship will be too. Flip side, you don’t have to be besties with your colleagues. Enjoying time with them while you’re colleagues is an end upon itself. You’ll statistically have about a dozen jobs in your life, which’ll bring in close to 100 colleagues into your life. Chances are you can’t and won’t remain friends with all of them, and that’s ok too.
- collyw 6y ago
  Nah. Two jobs ago had wonderful people and we still regularly meet up for drinks (despite the company being a load for shite to work for). Next job was a lot more family people and we rarely went for drinks together. I am not really in touch with them any more (perfectly nice people but the bonding never happened).
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    Of course, the family people probably were friends with each other.
    - collyw 6y ago
      Everyone at family company was friendly at lunch, it's just the we didn't socialize after work at all (well a couple of times). The younger company regularly went drinking together.
gerland 6y ago
It's a bit like that with every friend that you make. Most people lose contact with firends they made in school. Even family ties seems to be not that strong after all. It's all a matter of context. That being said, what do you actully expect when spending time with work peers? It's supposed to be just relax after work. If it does not "spark joy" then just don't do it. If it does, then do not expect any other value. Friendship is not about how much you can get from others.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> It’s amazing how many of the close work friends I had over the years were only close because of the shitty circumstances we endured together. Isn't that how most people form friends normally though? Through a shared experience? Especially a tough or formative one? Friends you meet at school, in your first year at uni, in bootcamp, on a sports team, these are how most people meet their life-long friends.
- neltnerb 6y ago
  Yes, but I think there's a lot of variation in what people want out of work-friends. My parents are super social to the point of inviting over colleagues for dinner regularly, but I think they're also so social (and worked for nonprofits that are more like family) that they simply have so many options that the ones they pick are much closer work-friends that often last decades. Other people really do just want to go home and do their own thing. As long as no one is rude, there's room for both. I find that after spending that many hours with work friends I rarely want to spend extra time with them when I could spend that time connecting with existing friends I haven't seen in a while who I'm already very close to. Balance. I've rarely had a work friend turn into a real friend though, but I'm also totally happy with that. I need breaks from people and don't want to get sucked into the work as life mindset. I'd rather meet new people at... pick a hobby. Dancing, singing, karate, whatever. That's how I make new friends, through hobbies rather than work because work friends dominating my social life feels incredibly unbalanced.
  - syshum 6y ago
    as an introvert I am one to just " want to go home and do their own thing.", I have rarely kept in touch with former co-workers, sometimes I regret that but I was not born with a drive to be social. One draw back of that is my professional network is limited as well, in times of economic decline a robust professional network is often the key between employment and not
    - neltnerb 6y ago
      I agree. If you want a possible compromise solution, consider sending cards to ex-coworkers on birthdays or holidays. It's pretty easy if you use an online service to print and mail them and boy would that make an impression that you value their long term acquaintance. My aunt runs an engineering firm and does this with so many people, I remember driving with her to deliver birthday flowers and stuff. That's all professional relationship building though, I truly don't think those people are ones she'd invite to a movie or over for dinner. Maintaining professional relationships does take constant low key attention though, if they only hear from you when you need something it's not a good look.
omniscient_oce 6y ago
You may like the Japanese phrase 一期一会 (ichi-go-ichi-e). To me it means that you should cherish each relationship and encounter, regardless of whether you know it will last a long time or not. You may never get the chance to experience that particular relationship again. I actually learnt this word firsthand from a man that it applies to, an middle-aged Japanese guy who was volunteering with kids near where I live. We got along well, laughed and ate, but he went back home and I will never see him again. But that doesn't diminish the worthiness of experiencing of getting to know him and enjoying time together, because all things have their place. I'm writing this as much for me as for you or anyone else here. Good night
- kotrunga 6y ago
  Thank you for sharing this.
- vmception 6y ago
  I do like that! I have been telling people that I'm content with relationships existing in chapters. Not everyone needs to be a follow on social media. Lets praise the utility and companionship of the time it was applicable. And maybe there is a cameo appearance in another chapter.
- kevsim 6y ago
  That's a lovely concept. Thanks for sharing!
- maemilius 6y ago
  My mom has a similar saying: "People enter your life for a reason, a season, or a lifetime." The idea is the same: you should cherish the relationships you have - while you have them - and let them go when they're over.
  - omniscient_oce 6y ago
    I really like that one too. Cheers
- disqard 6y ago
mortenjorck 6y ago
It is amazing what circumstance can do for bonding, though. I still keep in occasional touch with a handful of people I’ve worked with, but the exception is the group from a company that spectacularly imploded: A couple of years after most of us left or were let go, we still talk all the time.
lexcom 6y ago
This one is hard. Once you leave the company that's it; you'll probably never hear from them again. Can they still be considered friends if you're on their contacts list, but you haven't spoken/messaged them in years?
kradroy 6y ago
My view is: "You can be 'friendly' with coworkers without being 'friends'." My test for friendship is: "Would I call this person to bail me out of jail?" The answer to that question from me has always excluded all my coworkers and managers, despite them being nice and helpful people. I've also worked at a family company. They may claim you're "family" too, but that's just marketing hype. The truth is the family members will always be better compensated than you for doing far less. And when tough times come, you will take a hit before any family member.

conformist 6y ago

This seems to be good advice for anyone with not-top-quartile luck, not only bad luck.

AmericanChopper 6y ago
Perhaps it’s simply good advice, and the people you see as being “lucky“ already know it (if only intuitively).

2sk21 6y ago

Having worked for a dying tech startup at one point in the early 2000s - I spent time agonizing over the fact that if I quit, the company would become unviable - I was one of the key technical people and was the only person with a good understanding of our entire product. After much dithering, I did ultimately leave and the company did fold shortly thereafter. I did feel bad at the time but in retrospect, I have come to realize that it was inevitable and I should have left even sooner.

wiredfool 6y ago
Yep. It’s a really rough call. I really dislike getting into the key employee role, but it’s happened a couple of times.
codingdave 6y ago
I sympathize with feeling like the company can't do the job without you. It is a tough place to be. But ultimately, unless you are an exec or owner, that is not your problem. Your job is not a marriage, it is an ongoing business transaction. If the leadership built a company so dependent on one person, yet failed to either make sure that person was stupendously happy and satisfied there, or at least have a backup plan for that person's bus factor, that is their own management mistake.
larrik 6y ago
I feel like this situation calls for making you a partner. If you are SO valuable the company can't even survive without you, then you ARE the company and should be treated as such.
- specitley 6y ago
  I’m in this position now as the only developer in a successful company that has been operating in lean startup mode for years and every employee has become “irreplaceable” with no contingency plans. I brought partnership up with the owner and he wouldn’t consider it. It’s going to be rough For them when I leave and any “friendships” will definitely be erased.
- 6y ago

pjc50 6y ago

Retention offers: yeah. I've been given retention offers twice, and the second time round I explicitly said "I don't want money, I want you to change the way this team and product is managed, like the previous times we discussed this, but that's not going to happen, is it?" I ended up getting much more money, less responsibility, a nicer less open plan office, and a less dysfunctional process. Risk: yes, sometimes you just have to go full Light Brigade and charge the guns. Generally the worst possible consequence is you lose your job and everyone forgets it, but be aware that sometimes the consequences are worse and your chances of landing on your feet depend on your privilege level. You have no right to judge people who don't do this.

collyw 6y ago
> a nicer less open plan office, Impressive.
- pjc50 6y ago
  To be clear, this wasn't the retention offer, this was the new job! And it's still technically open, but nicely spaced with sound-absorbing partitions. The dysfunctional place had a pingpong table within earshot.
  - chrisabrams 6y ago
    This was not clear :O Would be good to clarify in your original post.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      Edit window now closed, but yes. My point was that a counteroffer can only ever change a very small set of things, so they're very rarely worth bothering with.

mettamage 6y ago

Finally, a post that isn't all hunky dory. I'm at the bottom quartile at the moment, so I'm happy to take any reasonable advice that doesn't sound like: study algorithms and get into Google. Ok, I studied algorithms, got rejected at the paper round. Now what? The tough part isn't passing the interview, it's getting a chance in the first place. This advice is better. Some points that really stood out to me and that I'll take to heart: > But if you have an amazing manager at a shit company you’ll still have a shit time. > “Take any role, at any pay, on a rocketship and everything will work out” is only sort of true. With that said, a lot of the advice is quite US-centric. Not many Dutch startups would offer stock options as far as I know, for example.

okt 6y ago
my 2 cents: there is rarely a shortcut available and is hardly a 6 months course work designed to get into google or the alike unless you have a friend or family member who guides you through the whole process and points you to the right direction, not least giving hope and motivation. you have to develop a sustainable long term learning habit to hone your skills without being getting burned out and without hoping a dramatic success in the short term. To get noticed or get an interview you have to identify people there and somehow get them forward your CV and/or build some proof of your skills in form of personal projects which many others like you dont have. Chances you are, you will get atleast an interview somewhere at big tech, if not at google.
- mettamage 6y ago
  > some proof of your skills in form of personal projects which many others like you dont have. I have quite a bit of personal projects, actually.
coldpie 6y ago
IMO, forget the big companies and startups. There's plenty of opportunities at smaller, established companies, which are, in my opinion, often better places to work anyway.
- 6y ago

ptero 6y ago

Most of it is reasonable, if already often quoted advice. But I did not see what does it have to do with the title: "for people with bad luck"

Kye 6y ago
People with good luck are probably not looking for career advice.
- ptero 6y ago
  I am not so sure of this. IME folks who do well are, on average, much more willing to hear external advice. They do not take it as direction (and, on disagreement would rarely try to convince the speaker that (s)he is wrong), but they would actually listen and try to understand the point, then make their own decision on whether they should act on it. Also, (not bad_luck) != good_luck. I think most people would consider themselves average_luck.

undebuggable 6y ago

- good luck! - don't need it, never had it!

rb808 6y ago

A lot of talk here that colleagues aren't friends. What is wrong with you people? If you like your colleagues you can invite them to do stuff after you or they leave. They probably haven't invited you because they never got around to it either. Most of the older generation people met through work is the only way to make friends. No wonder loneliness is so rampant now.

growlist 6y ago
There's a kind of snobby attitude at play here sometimes I think, as in: 'of course I wouldn't socialise with my colleagues outside work! They are nowhere near as interesting as me and my super-awesome, quirky and unique bunch of mates, I'm just slumming it for the money'.
- draw_down 6y ago
  Well, sometimes it happens that the people you work with really are duller than those in other parts of tour life. Jobs are jobs.
kamaal 6y ago
Unacknowledged fact. Due to Stack Ranking and modern day Machivellian work culture, colleagues are competitors. Most relationships end up the same way. If there is some kind of comparative ranking/selection, even if it is just fame or some recognition. Even sibling rivalry roots in this.
- werber 6y ago
  I've had such a different experience than you. I feel that being friends with co-workers has always been more about mutual aid than competition.
  - k__ 6y ago
    Probably depends on the job. We devs always got along well, even the idiots were kind of included. But I had the impression, things were different sales or the management team.

brobdingnagians 6y ago

> It’s also okay to take risks. Staying at a company that’s slowly dying has its costs too. Stick around too long and you’ll lose your belief that you can build, that change is possible. Try not to learn the wrong habits. I love this. I recently decided to move towards quitting at a job that is slowly dying and find something else to do. My mood immediately lightened, even though nothing except my mental direction has changed. I don't want to let cynicism seep into me; I want to find something I'm excited about.

meddlepal 6y ago
+1 on this. I bailed out of a startup I was an early engineer at and worked at for close to four years awhile back and immediately my depression and frustration cleared up.

betageek 6y ago

This is one of the most useful posts ever to grace the front page.

throw4failure 6y ago

This seems like a good thread in which to try to solicit some advice, since it's at least tangentially related. I was terminated from my last job. In my opinion it was due to my chronic and major depression that I have since been seeking extensive treatment (medication, several months rent in therapy) for. I say "in my opinion" because I really can't rule out that I'm just a lazy, crappy developer who is trying to use mental health as an excuse. Either way, I've been unemployed for over half a year and am now trying to re-enter the job market. Obviously the gap is a bit of a red flag that I've been candid about to potential employers, in the sense that I speak about a medical issue, not the specifics. If I could go back in time, I would have quit from my last job before being fired, but honestly I was beyond caring about anything, period, so the consequences of taking the career L barely phased me. There was no upside to being fired, I just didn't care. Now, I wish I had cared, because it's an elephant in the room I don't really know how to address. Do I tackle it proactively by outright telling everyone I was canned? Do I wait until they call up my former employer to verify my work history? If anyone else has been in a remotely similar situation I would greatly appreciate any tips or feedback. Please just refrain from telling me I messed up - I definitely know I did.

MrPatan 6y ago
Why would I see the parent comment grey? I surely hope there is some rule I don't understand here about new accounts, because otherwise it means somebody had nothing better to do than to be mean to someone depressed and asking for help. Maybe that's the advice for you, if you're feeling down go have a look around for somebody who has it worse than you and push them further down! Nice work, everybody.
- Kye 6y ago
  It wasn't gray when I got to it. This is part of why the guidelines discourage complaining about downvotes. It's often temporary. Someone was probably just having a bad day.
  - ShamelessC 6y ago
    I could be wrong but I thought comments of a certain length were greyed a bit to discourage lengthy comments?

sys_64738 6y ago

My advice is to do a startup as early in your career as possible. Then you'll feel failure and the emptiness as it hits the skids. It's a life lesson in a few months because startups that fail usually tip over the cliff real fast.

rwmj 6y ago
In my experience the worst start ups don't hit the skids fast. They kind of keep bumping along, often for years. Neither growing much, nor dying, nor making much money, nor losing enough to go out of business. I even co-founded one of these a few years ago. If you're in one of these my advice is to recognise it and quit.
- Kye 6y ago
  Those kinds of startups should have been lifestyle businesses, but someone convinced the founder it was unicorn or nothing.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Even worse: they succeed wildly, to the extent they never need funding again after a series C, buy out the VC's, and stay private. This is roughly what I'm expecting from one of the startups I worked at. I already know they'll never need to take another dime in funding, so I'm just waiting for them to tell me how my shares are going to become worthless.
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giantg2 6y ago

To the people questioning why it is about luck: I think it is because it is written from the perspective that you are at a bad/dying company or have a bad boss. A lot of this article seems to be about leaving that situation. If you had good luck, then you might have been hired onto a good company in the first place. I do think the article should point out that sometimes bad luck just happens and there's nothing that could have mitigated it. I work for a good company (top 20 IT best places to work) and I have had good managers (some bad too) and I have still been unlucky. I saw a coworker get promoted rapidly for filling the tech lead role for one year. When he left, I stepped up to fill that role for 1.5 years. I didn't get promoted or even the highest performance rating. My manager even told me they believed I deserved it but didn't have to power to make it happen.

znpy 6y ago

Regarding retainment offers and somebody commenting on the fact that he asked for changes instead of money for retainment: I recently took note of this beautiful quote by Bryan Cantrill: if you can't make the right thing happen then it's time to leave.

CSMastermind 6y ago

> Your equity package is a lottery ticket with expected value of zero. That's good advice no matter where you're going.

giantg2 6y ago
Good stock market advice too. It doesn't matter what your account says your balance is. It only matters what you get when you sell it.
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  Considering the expected value of your publicly traded stocks at 0 is not good advice. If you actually believe that, then it would make sense to trade all of your holdings for a dollar.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    I think you ignored the last sentence of my previous comment :)
    - travisjungroth 6y ago
      I didn’t ignore it. It’s just in conflict with your first sentence. I’m not sure if you’re talking about EV in technical terms, or a more lose “count on it way”, but neither makes sense to discount to 0. Like if you’re 50 and have a million dollars in stocks for retirement, you should put an expected value of 0 on that? Seems silly to me.
      - giantg2 6y ago
        Fair point. My unstated perspective was from investing in a single stock without stop-loss orders using an informal 'don't count on it' definition. Yes, depending on the stock and many other factors - it probably shouldn't be zero. Same should be said of the equity package in the parent comment depending upon the circumstances and terms.

dudul 6y ago

Overall really good post, but I'm curious about the "Politics emerge when the players believe the game is zero sum". What are the arguments that it's not a zero sum game? In theory, sure it's not. Everybody works to increase revenue and profits, ergo everybody benefits, but in reality?

vmception 6y ago

Its been impossible for me to get a tech job in the last 6 months, I stopped with the global COVID outbreak. In the past I used to have 1 month of unemployement max, from the time I reached out to the first recruiter (internal or third party), to actually starting a job. Now recruiters all tap me for Level 5's and Level 6's and reach out within 24 hours of my cold submission through their websites - after the disclaimers all say "expect 4-6 weeks for reply". At first I realized I needed to brush up on Leetcode, what people are actually looking for in System Design interviews, and even behavioral/leadership stuff. A few educational SaaS subscriptions later, I find it all really fascinating. Although when I see the answers to a lot of "hard" problems, I really question my abstract problem solving capabilities. But I know this is not what happens on the job, thats the kicker, but I have accepted that my full time job was getting good at the interview job. Later on, after I was solving the brain teasers in 5 minutes in the coderpad/in browser compiler, and asking "is there another part to the problem" and getting no, STILL to be rejected, I realized this was not the best use of my time. I have no idea what people are looking for, maybe I need to delete all my online profiles and pretend my resume has half of the experience (Founder, small acquisition, probably too public and nobody can say so. Maybe they expected a savant and my moderately above average interview performance wasn't good enough.. for me. Seems like a trap for founders.) I didn't want lower comp ranges and was at least getting interviewed by everyone imaginable... ? I was just about ready to lower my ask, until COVID hit and realized I can't get evicted, my health insurance won't get cancelled, my phone bill and my internet won't either. I don't even want to see what offers look like right now, and there are a ton of other priorities. Low key, I only needed time, but after how gamified leetcoding has become it started becoming a point of pride for me to get accepted. But I don't really need golden handcuffs, I would stay for the 1 year cliff, maybe. I don't think this was oozing through my fascade in interviews, of course I'm passionate about your flying scooter fintech platform :D (eye roll), but feel free to think thats why I was getting rejected. In my notes it wasn't all rejections. Some (VC backed, and also mid-size) companies said they cancelled the position after talking with me and realizing they needed a completely different role, or the hiring manager didn't really have as much autonomy over the role they thought and the company focused their efforts on another team. In others (Big Tech) they didn't even know I wasn't already in the company, and therefore I was at an inherent disadvantage and pulled harder from internal pool. (Other big tech does matchmaking after an offer). All I have are anecdotes. I had friend and founder referrals to their current startups, every "in" you could imagine, and still rejections. The silver lining? I did get exposed to Tech Lead, and his soap opera of a life is very engaging! The people you meet along the way, right?

mdorazio 6y ago

I really want to see more articles like this on HN. However, this is really "career advice for people at struggling companies." The luck part doesn't get discussed in the way I expected. To me, bad luck is things like: - You're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Ex. you graduated in 2008-2010/now or your business sector got wiped out by COVID - Despite your best efforts at networking, you simply never meet that magical person who can strap a booster rocket to your career/company - You don't have a resilient financial and mental safety net in the form of good friends/family early in your career that enables you to take risks, or you got dealt a bad hand in the form of things like dependents or health issues and simply can't afford to take risks - Despite all your work, you get blindsided by things completely out of your control. Ex. a big company straight up rips off your product/service/side gig or an executive at your company guts your project/department - You don't have the magic paper credentials to get you through the doors at places you want to go because you didn't know you needed them earlier in life when they were practical to get These are the kinds of things I want to see tackled with real-world career advice since I think they apply to a lot of people. For every lucky executive or entrepreneur there are many who were unlucky.

idclip 6y ago
I second this.
shortlived 6y ago
>> You don't have a resilient financial and mental safety net in the form of good friends/family early in your career that enables you to take risks, or you got dealt a bad hand in the form of things like dependents or health issues and simply can't afford to take risks +1
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vsareto 6y ago
The bad luck is thinking a company is having a good luck and then realize it isn't. Running into people able to manipulate you is also bad luck. Companies are selling you during the interview. Sometimes good businesses hire bad people who are good at interviews (maliciously or not), sometimes bad businesses who are good at interviews hire good people (maliciously or not).

imdsm 6y ago

That missing ) is bothering me

username90 6y ago

Step 1: Get a well paying job at a big tech company. There is very little luck involved in this, just get really good at algorithms. No need for a famous school, specific degree etc. It requires intelligence, if you don't have that then you need luck. Step 2: Save more than two thirds of your take home salary, you can still live way better than the people sweeping the office floor. Step 3: You now have a ton of money saved up, take whatever risks you like or just retire early.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>Step 1: Get a well paying job at a big tech company. There is very little luck involved in this, just get really good at algorithms. Let me stop you right there. Maybe that works in SV but in most of Europe(the world?) you aint getting in to any well paying job at a big tech company without a degree from a prestigious university or previous experience at equally big and famous companies. Companies here don't have the FAANG resources to whiteboard everyone who bothers to apply and check their algorithm skills when all the future employee needs to do is work on some CRUD app so they initially select based on how impressive your resume is and run you through some coding test later to weed out the bullshitters. Although I live and work in a city with one of the top 300 technical universities in the world where graduating means you have to study algorithms, advanced math, etc. almost no jobs here outside or research and academia require knowledge about algorithms. Companies just want an experienced node/python plumber ASAP.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  I can second that sentiment in Canada as well - I'm not even aware of what the good paying jobs would even be - there's none with FAANG fame, and every job has a hard wall with a laundry list of 5+ years of experience with a dozen web technologies that you can only climb over with the appropriate connections.
  - chrisandchips 6y ago
    As a canadian, I disagree with how strict you’re describing the issue to be. There are a fair amount of big and well established companies that are not going to penalize you for lacking the five years and connections. With that said, they’re almost all in Toronto, but that’s a different issue ..

diogenescynic 6y ago

Graduated with my BA in 2009 and definitely dealt with bad luck. Now, I work at a good company and have a good job (for now), but they are clearly making moves to shift the jobs to Texas. I’m just finishing my MBA and finding it really hard to find a job. Everyone wants you to have 5-8 years of experience doing exactly what they’re hiring for and don’t seem willing to train if you have 60-80% of the qualifications. Really sucks because trying to shift from one finance discipline (treasury/tax/FP&A/Corp Finance) doesn’t seem like companies are willing to consider.

non-entity 6y ago
> Everyone wants you to have 5-8 years of experience doing exactly what they’re hiring for and don’t seem willing to train if you have 60-80% of the qualifications. This is a big worry for me. I'm leaning towards switching to a loosely related disciple in a few years, but with programming domains. However, when I research jobs in domains in looking at, a vast majority explicitly want at least a couple years in that exact domain, but most want upwards of 5 years.

efficax 6y ago

The point made in here about how your company is not your family cannot be emphasized enough. Corporate culture, and especially tech startup culture, likes to make you believe that we're all family and best friends and love each other. That attitude stays up right until the day they lay you off without warning. It's great to work with great people that you enjoy being around, and we should treat each other all with human dignity and respect, and with a bit of fun. But your boss is not, and never will be, your friend.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
But I think there can also be too much negativity around "the company is not a family". At this point, with 3 major crashes in the past 20 years, I feel like only bad companies say the company is a family. Good companies say, and act like, the company is a team. People can work hard together, they can be friends, but they are clear that the reason for the team is to accomplish a goal, and if the structure of the team needs to be changed to accomplish that goal, people will be cut. This team mentality can provide true clarity of purpose, and can eliminate any sense of bitterness if things don't work out. When people are cut from a high caliber sports team they may be immensely disappointed, but if treated fairly they understand it. The family mentality almost always results in bitterness, because what kind of family kicks out their members when things get slightly tough?
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Exactly. If a company says "we're a family," then, either they are (a family business), or they're lying. I always say "you don't fire your brother," when people say something like this.
Hokusai 6y ago
> But your boss is not, and never will be, your friend. I agree with the sentiment. I am still friends with people that were my direct reports many years ago. But, when I was their manager, I treat them fairly like any other employee. That they were my friends meant that we will hang after work hours. But, as I manager I could not be their friends in work hours. Favoritism will have been extremely unfair for the rest of employees, that still were very good people. I also have friends that have been my managers. And, in the job I expected to be treated equally than the rest of employees. I guess that we are still friends because we think in a similar way about justice and work ethics. With teammates has been different. I have been part of awesome teams that we have been friends while working together to later on drift apart as our interests outside the job does not match (quite usually people with children that have limited time to hang out). The opposite of that are managers that "feel betrayed" when you leave a company that has been mistreating you, or tell you that they expect loyalty to the company that is not reciprocal. They are the "paterfamilias" of a dysfunctional and abusive family. There is nothing worse that a manager that expects to be treated as a friend, with loyalty and sacrifice but sees you as just a number.

Reimersholme 6y ago

"Politics emerge when the players believe the game is zero sum. In a recession, the players are more likely to believe the game is zero sum." I'd put emphasis on this, but with the difference that in a recession, it's a negative sum game and not zero sum, which explains why there will definitely be politics.

lukejduncan 6y ago

"luck is the residue of design"

jerzyt 6y ago

It maybe too cynical, but I'm fond of the saying that I'm loyal to the company as longs as the paycheck doesn't bounce.

pmiller2 6y ago
I think you're not cynical enough. You should definitely keep an eye out for a bigger paycheck elsewhere. Your company wouldn't hesitate to cut you loose if they thought it would make or save them a dollar in the long run.

jorblumesea 6y ago

> Your equity package is a lottery ticket with expected value of zero. While this is true, it's vastly more true for startups and privately owned companies vs publicly owned. Amazon's stock price might fluctuate but the chances of it being worthless are slim.

foreigner 6y ago
But equity packages are typically stock options, not stock. So they're only worth anything if the stock price goes way up.
- jorblumesea 6y ago
  For publicly traded companies, many equity packages now include RSUs, or give you the option to choose between options and RSUs. Which are worth something so long as the stock has any value. Perhaps I am twisting the value of what equity package means.
- opportune 6y ago
  Not for any big US tech company I've heard of! I think that is only for startups. FAANG (well, Netflix doesn't do equity comp normally), Microsoft, etc. it's all direct equity that vests over time.

black_puppydog 6y ago

Somehow that page 404'd on me and just showed "Not Found". I nearly closed it thinking I had read what I had come to read... XD

WhompingWindows 6y ago

The concept of "bad luck" is reinforced by endless self-comparison with those who had extremely good luck. It's MUCH more valuable to compare yourself to those who are unlucky: the mentally disabled, those who died from COVID at age 29, those born/raised in North Korea. Compared to these people, we've all hit the fucking jackpot. Adjust your mindset and you'll notice you're luckier than you thought you were.

hpoe 6y ago
“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.” ― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning
- JackRabbitSlim 6y ago
  “But it was alright, everything was alright, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.” -- George Orwell, 1984
  - breischl 6y ago
    Frankl was a holocaust concentration camp survivor. I don't think that's exactly what he was getting at. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl
pmiller2 6y ago
Comparing yourself to people born in North Korea, etc. isn't actionable though. In other words, so what, other people are more unlucky than me? I know that already.

hachibu 6y ago

> Every time I’ve outsourced my thinking for a job change (n=2) I love the n = 2 aside. I really like OP's sense of humor.

YesThatTom2 6y ago

I’m sure that’s good advice for SOME people but I just read about this bitcoin startup that...

cocktailpeanuts 6y ago

Just loaded the website and it says "Not Found". Brutal... Does this mean people with bad luck should give up? https://imgur.com/a/s5AhAEZ https://imgur.com/a/s5AhAEZ

hmart 6y ago

I live in a 3rd world country, worked the last 20 years as systems administrator. Recently lost my job and while looking for a new remote job I have been touched by the hard reality: The world changed and I was full of self leniency, years using the same bash scripts, the same tricks day to day. Did lot of things maintenance, networking, security,databases, mail servers, anti spam. I consider myself capable of put a SMB connected and working. My job didn’t demanded me new skills an I was self indulgent, happy to have enough money for the day. Some recent job interviews showed me a depressing reality : I did the least, I know the minimum, never upgrade my knowledge, just relied on Google search. I didn’t know about CI, CD, containerization, DevOps in general. I have a B.S in Systems Engineering (Some sort of CS , without the ‘science’ part) enjoyed math and code in college, done tens of websites in WordPress, Joomla and some Drupal, I’m capable of code in Php, some bash, some ruby, some python. I’m in my mid forties a kid 4 years old and cannot afford to stay worried, I have to do something to land a remote job, I want to thrive and motivated enough to learn, but time is ticking would like to hear some advice.

karimdxy 6y ago
Since you like coding and apparently you happen to enjoy building websites why not transition to web dev? The barrier to entry is relatively low. Give freecodecamp (https://freecodecamp.org https://freecodecamp.org) a shot and let me know if you ever need help!
- hmart 6y ago
  Thank you!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
hattori 6y ago
It seems you nailed exactly what is the problem and what needs to be done or learned. You have more or less ideal background to jump into these tools, it's just matter of spending some time and considering your experience it will take less than for most of people. You'll be ok.

kursus 6y ago

> The company is not your family. Yes, and it's also not your friend. That's an easy mistake to make. You owe your company nothing more than work and loyalty.

personaenon 6y ago

Anyone know/have a work from home Solaris SA gig? My end of IT is DEAD!!! Yes, I know Solaris is dead, but RHEL doesn't have much atm either.....

yingw787 6y ago

I've been reading the Incerto series by Nassim Taleb and he talks quite frequently about nonlinearities and their outsize impact. He mentions how a friend of his saw how during the Gulf War, everybody had planned for the war to increase the price of oil. So his friend bet against everybody else. Turns out, everybody was stockpiling oil due to the war, and given how short it was, there was an oil glut afterwards. His friend turned $300,000 into $18M. It's difficult to work for a FAANG and become wealthy, as in move between socioeconomic classes. You have to play politics and become fragile in your building of human relationships, which can fall apart much more quickly than your competence as a software engineer (barring a brain aneurysm or a TBI, where you have much more pressing problems). If you bet that the stock market would absolutely tank by end of March, and acted on that impulse financially, you would be wealthy today. Renaissance Technologies rose 39% and is having one of their best years ever. It's not secret, exclusive knowledge. I started taking health precautions two weeks before the crash. I didn't act financially, because I honestly didn't think of it, and because I don't like the principle of shorting the market and betting against my country and my people. My takeaway isn't go on wallstreetbets and attempt to yolo my way through life. My takeaway is people who bet on linearities are much more similar than you think. $300K, $70K, does it really matter? In the grand scheme of things, you're still a peon either way. You're a middle class guy, with little influence on Capitol Hill and less access to PPE and ventilators, high taxes, one primary income stream, and still trade time for money instead of building capital and having money work for you. So if you feel down, keep a good head on your shoulders, don't despair, and consume as much information as you can on a regular basis. If you want to, look for ways to benefit from nonlinearities. And if you do make it, be a humanist and don't forget to give back to the people who raised you and taught you and care for you.

mywittyname 6y ago
> It's difficult to work for a FAANG and become wealthy, as in move between socioeconomic classes You're goal should not necessarily be to move up a social-economic class, but to at least provide your children with more opportunity than you had. Inter-generational wealth accumulation is very important. Most people don't go rags to riches, it's typically families that do so over multiple generations. With poor people focusing on educating their children, who become professionals, who then have kids with the opportunity to make it big. If you look at Bill Gates, he's the son of a judge. Zuckerberg is the son of a dentist. One of the Google founders is the son of a college professor. Even our president came from a wealthy family.

haskellandchill 6y ago

diversify income, I'm learning tattoo and working food service jobs because I'm too high variance in programming. I can be really good but I also go bust a lot :)

OliverJones 6y ago

Lots of great insight here into the weltanschauung of scrambling startups. This one especially: "It’s the nature of boards that they ignore (externally) problems until their hand is forced." Translation: if the execs are doing a bad job, the board WILL NOT INTERVENE. Nobody on the board wants to take over for an inept manager. If you're waiting for them to do that ... don't wait any more.

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cabbagehatch 6y ago

https://youtu.be/N8wQtWi7sJk https://youtu.be/N8wQtWi7sJk It all starts with this video

cabbagehatch 6y ago

https://youtu.be/N8wQtWi7sJk https://youtu.be/N8wQtWi7sJk It all starts with this video...

anonymous24 6y ago

I'm considering myself as a back luck person. Graduated with CS major but has been stuck in a QA engineer position. So, after many failures to become dev, I decided to take a M.S degree to sharp my skills and my resume. But when i'm gonna graduate soon, the Covid-19 happens.

dhosek 6y ago

The bit about the equity package rings true to me. I've never had options that have been worth anything. And I had an employee stock purchase program that was a can't lose deal where the shares would be priced at the lower of the price at the beginning and end of the purchase period. Problem was, between the end of the purchase period and the delivery of the shares, the stock price dropped by 30%.

f2000 6y ago

Best career advice I've lived a number of times: "If you're on a sinking ship, get off"

andrelgomes 6y ago

> Don’t think that there won’t be politics because there wasn’t politics before. Politics emerge when the players believe the game is zero sum. In a recession, the players are more likely to believe the game is zero sum. Another related quote from someone I read on another post "People call it politics when they are losing" [0]. A major draw to work for a early/medium startups is that there is "no" politics/bureaucracy, to get out of the "cog of the machine". As the company grows, processes are naturally developed and when the term "politics" is more frequently used. This projected recession is accelerating the development of processes, i.e. politics, for all companies. [edit] [o]: hackernews, motohagiography